Monty Race 19" tyre (*NEW*)

[Sponge]

I do not have to the know the every in and out nitty gritty of tyre manufacturing to know that the Cyko-Lite is nothing spectacular. I just really dislike it when manufacturers claim that their new product is something special when really it's just based off a proven old design with a few minor modifications. Unless the Cyko-Lite has seriously had some huge design innovations please do let me know, otherwise it's a product I can not take seriously as a worthy stand-out. Now if the Cyko-Lite used a completely new mould, carcass, sidewalls, then I wouldn't be saying all this would I? Can you honestly say that the Cyko-Lite was not influenced by the 'Echo'/standard Chinese biketrials tyre design? I can say first-hand that some batches of Echo tyres have ranged from +1000g to under 800g. I have owned a 'light' Echo tyre and a 'heavy' Echo tyre- they are the same, just the sidewalls and carcass have varying thicknesses which contribute to the weight loss/gain.

I use the words 'bog standard' because that's what the Echo tyres are. The owner of Echo (Deng) and all the top level Chinese riders who test for either Echo, Neon, or Zhi don't really argue against that and don't mind, because it's just a standard tyre they can cheaply use to put on completes . That's just how it is there. Almost everyone I know who buys an Echo complete 20" bike changes those tyres because they're suicide if you're riding anything but dry urban and they really aren't anything special in rebound properties.

If you can speak Mandarin Chinese and go there on a frequent basis, the retailers, top riders, and owners of certain major Chinese biketrials brands are far more open to telling you A LOT of things within the trials industry that they aren't really going to be as open to to people who just try and get away with English. I'm speaking from personal experience and I know the Chinese culture well. Speak their language and show a genuine interest, and they are some of the kindest and most helpful people you could meet. You learn a lot about the ins-and-outs of the trials industry by getting to know, go riding with, and becoming friends with the major retailers and the riding scene in various cities there. You just don't get that kind of information in the West. Bottom line- I do not really approve of brands copying other brands or passing off their 'new product' as some kind of magic new invention. I would respect it a bit more if they credited where they got their influence from. The Cyko-Lite (yes I've seen one and held one) was practically identical to one of the batches of Echo tyres I've had in the past. It's not new, and I do not like fancy cover-ups to plagiarism. Like I said, if the Cyko-Lite was designed from the ground upwards- i.e. completely new mould, tread, carcass, bead, sidewall- then I could respect that and would give my respect.- (and I do to certain brands and products who actually worked from scratch on certain individual products). But the Cyko-Lite is not, and I'm not a fan of dishonesty or even half-honesty when it comes to promoting a 'new' product.

I would spend my money on a completely unique and new design like the Monty Race because I do support innovative thinking. I do not however, want to spend my money on copied/plagiarised/slightly modified spins on old, old designs, because I do not support copying and certainly do not like it when manufacturers tell half-truths. I want to see a British brand innovate. Continuing to take already established designs and passing off as your own isn't great is it? It's only just now in recent years that Onza have improved their reputation as a legitimate innovative contributor to product design and technology in the trials world. So let's see more British companies step it up. Lord knows, this country is going to need some pioneers and innovators if it wants to keep up in this ever increasingly competitive world.

[rogeratunicycledotcom]

Sponge,

I am actually the person sat around a table with the Managing director of the tyre company and their chief production manager. The conversations were in mixture of Chinese and English. The drawings produced were in English.

I have never claimed that the mould was new, it is not. What Cyco-lite was/is is the first to use the combination of materials and carcass to produce this tyre. In that respect it is correct to call it a new tyre - no deception here at all.

The Cyco-lite is definitely a move forward. It has reduced the cost and weight of tyres to the unicycle community.

I am not sure exactly who you are slating about lack of innovation and plagiarism... I assume it me who you are insulting. I find your comments both offensive and inappropriate on this forum.

As I have said I think the Monty tyre will be a great tyre and look forward to trying it.

Roger

[Eddbmxdude]

Sweet! The Monty is my favourite trials tyre by far, so I can't wait to try one of these

[Nurse Ben]

Hey Sponge, what you wrote about UDC's tire was out of line and better put into a PM to Roger or simply not said at all.

Roger has always been very helpful to this community and has been forthright and honest in all of his interactions with other users.

If you don't like what UDC is doing, and you even have a dog in this fight, then maybe you should take it off the forum...

Those were some powerful and nasty words, you owe Roger an apology.

[Sponge]

This is where online talking can make arguments sprout when the intention was not there. I think I should make it clear that when I post, I post or write a paragraph online, it is speaking towards a general audience. I prefer to quote someone if giving a direct response to an individual's post. I read Roger's points, and made a general point displayed in a few paragraphs. E.g. when I said "If you can speak Mandarin Chinese and go there on a frequent basis..." I wasn't talking to Roger. I didn't have any individual in mind when I typed that. In public forums, the way I write is to a general audience usually. I hope the word 'you' isn't taking personally, usually when I use that word online publicly it really is a 'general' you.

I am not 'slating' any individual, including you Roger. If I had an issue with you personally, which by the way I don't, I would have emailed or called directly. I see that my above post seemed inflammatory towards an individual, well, No that wasn't the point. So if it seemed like I had a problem with you personally Roger, then my apologies if you felt that way. I want to make it clear that my critical post was directed towards a product like the Cyko-Lite, and not at Roger.

What I do take issue with (and was the point of my above post) is this idea that so many brands in the cycling world (not only within unicycling) base some 'new' products off of already existing and outdated products already made long ago by another brand/company. I actually really want more unicycling brands to step up and create innovative new products from ground up, one of the greatest compliments to a unicycling part is when other sports take interest in that given part. One example is the KH rim. I just happen to believe that Nimbus has a ton of potential, and that the Cyko-Lite is nothing particularly progressive. It's the Cyko-Lite I can not agree with, not Nimbus, and certainly not Roger.

Echo tyres can come down as low as 800-900g, depending on the batch. I know this first hand as I've owned various Echo tyres off completes and sold the tyres off because I think they're not adequate for trials, dangerous in wet conditions, and there are better options for cheaper. Like the Creepy Crawler. If we're talking street unicycles then riders could just ask any Echo retailer in the notes section to send them a light one. Echo tyres are cheap, cheaper than the Cyko-Lite whose main selling point is the low weight- which some batches of Echo tyres definitely match. Hence why I just think it'd be so much better if Nimbus created a whole new 19" tyre with a new carcass, tread and compound- starting fresh with just the first two mentioned components alone is enough to create a good lightweight tyre that will get riders' interest (and not just within unicycling).

I'm just relaxing back home now after another year at university and having an iced tea, speaking my mind. Two years ago I spoke quite thoroughly with a friend who was the frame designer of then-new trials brand Mist Bikes- the whole debate was about how to improve the next Mist frames and I discussed with him that copying Koxx's tensioning system and various other areas of the frame was not the most progressive and best way to get positive sales and feedback from the market. Turns out the Mist frame failed eventually. Both of us got a lot out of that discussion- it was over some bubble tea and both of us knew that when discussing that frame's design it was just about that frame- and not about either of us as individuals. Nimbus has done a lot of good, I'm not denying that, in fact my very first unicycle was a hand-me down Nimbus from Joe and I remember I adored it. I like the brand, and I am well aware of the good things Roger has done for unicycling. Hence I don't have a reason to bite. If I had a problem with Roger or any individual I'd take it up with them personally. As I have already stated, I do not have an issue with Roger personally. I like it when brands (or anyone) take a chance and create something new and innovative, often that investment pays off quite well in the end and the market ends up with a fresh, new, progressive product. That's what I'd like for Nimbus and more unicycling brands.

This has really off the main topic- the Monty Race, why I like it? Because they completely revised it, and not just taking the old Eagle Claw as a starting base. The actual carcass of the tyre is something completely new.

[Sponge]

I'm speaking to Roger directly in my second post on this page when I refer with his name, and am sorry if it seemed I was making having a go personally in my first post at the top of the page. To make it very clear, that's not the case. It's the product I don't agree with, even if I happen to respect the man at the top whose brand made it. One thing that I would've like to have said if I was talking to Roger directly in my first post on this page is that I really do respect when people go out to visit factories and sit down with the guys who do the manual work. That can't be taken away and that's one of the reasons why I definitely don't have a problem with Roger as a guy.

[rogeratunicycledotcom]

Sponge,

Thank you for your kind comments and your explanation. I also understand your miss-understanding thinking that the Cyko-lite was not a Nimbus and hence a product that I worked on with the manufactures. I guess it is not clear at all. One positive note I will take from this debate is that we need to show more of what we have actually done on projects.

I do not think it is the best tyre on the market by any means; although it is definately a move forward on what we had and is also a reaction to what is happening in the market.

The cost of Butile has gone through the roof and the cost of tyres has dramatically gone up and on a unicycle that affects the cost disproportionally. The company that we work with (along with most of the trials bike companies) have developed a method of producing tyres with less butile and hence making them lighter. They are at the forefront of the industry. I wish they could have taken on our new 36" tyre, but their bolsters are not big enough!

Roger

[padst3r]

I think the nimbus blizzards were the same as echo tyres right? The cyco lite is probably the first decent step to getting out own unicycle tyre

[rogeratunicycledotcom]

I don't think that Echo produced a white version. We did not work on the tyre structure on it at all, our discussion on it's development was to produce a white tyre to help with disappearance of the white try-all tyre at that time. So if there was a white version of the Echo, then yes I would guess it was the same.

Roger

[knoxuni]

I am still in for a monty tire!

[aracer]

Originally Posted by Sponge

Hence why I just think it'd be so much better if Nimbus created a whole new 19" tyre with a new carcass, tread and compound- starting fresh with just the first two mentioned components alone is enough to create a good lightweight tyre that will get riders' interest (and not just within unicycling).

How do you know they haven't got a completely new carcass and compound based on what you've seen? As far as I can tell you're basing your opinion on the fact it uses the same mould as the existing Echo tyre (something Roger has happily admitted to), resulting in the same tread - however that tells you pretty much nothing about the other important attributes. Admittedly I'm a complete unicycle newbie (and never likely to use a trials tyre on a bicycle), but ISTM the tread pattern on a trials tyre is pretty unimportant for what most unicyclists use them for. In fact I'd go so far as to suggest that for the vast majority of use I've seen of trials tyres a slick would provide better grip.

[Nurse Ben]

It's probably best to keep the politics out of the review and product promotion cuz it detracts from the product. There will always be products that look and feel like another product because, wait for it...there is no such thing as reinventing the wheel

I applaud anyone who cares enough about unicycling to put together unicycle specific products or adapt bike products for unicycle use. We are a very small community, there's not a lot of money in our sport, so every little bit counts.

Tires are probably the most complicated and most expensive components to manufacture, between molds and materials. There is no mystery to me as to why my most recent tire purchase, a Hans Dampf 29 x 2.35 cost a whopping $90!

[aracer]

Originally Posted by Nurse Ben

There is no mystery to me as to why my most recent tire purchase, a Hans Dampf 29 x 2.35 cost a whopping $90!

That reminds me, but OT for this thread...

[Sponge]

Originally Posted by aracer

How do you know they haven't got a completely new carcass and compound based on what you've seen? As far as I can tell you're basing your opinion on the fact it uses the same mould as the existing Echo tyre (something Roger has happily admitted to), resulting in the same tread - however that tells you pretty much nothing about the other important attributes. Admittedly I'm a complete unicycle newbie (and never likely to use a trials tyre on a bicycle), but ISTM the tread pattern on a trials tyre is pretty unimportant for what most unicyclists use them for. In fact I'd go so far as to suggest that for the vast majority of use I've seen of trials tyres a slick would provide better grip.

Just to make it clear, I'm not just a guy who rides trials bikes who happens to post on here. I started unicycling in 2006, as another way to enjoy trials- through a friend (Joe) who was beginning to establish himself as one of the best trials riders in the unicycling scene. Between us, we tried out A LOT of different tyres on our unicycles and my bike, everything from the oldest foamy-feeling Montys to rares like the Echo White Stripes. I also asked him to be one of two test riders (the other being Isaac LeMasters) for the then-new Triton Sponge frames that I designed in the 06/07 period. Though I took a long break from unicycling and the scene since, I've still seen unicyclists around different parts of the UK and Europe on a random basis when unicycling wasn't even on my mind- which would gave me fond memories of when I rode unis on a day-to-day basis! Thus I've had the opportunity to hold the Cyko-Lite in my hands, bounced around on a new starter's unicycle and can make my own comparisons to what I vividly remember from all the previous tyres I've owned/used. The Cyko-Lite (to me at least) felt the same as the light batches of Echo tyres- i.e. thinner and flexier sidewalls, same tread pattern a given just by looking, but also the interior of the carcass and how it feels when you squish it with your fingers, when I was giving a hand repairing a puncture. Whilst I openly admit I'm not a fan of the Cyko-Lite partly because I'm not a fan of the Echo tyres, I'm not condemning anyone by any means to try use them. It's not my choice, it's theirs'! Everything I say is just my opinion based on experience and comparison, and it's by no means compulsory for people to take in- that'd just be silly! take what you will from what I share, and ignore what you want. I don't mind.

Two factors above all that contribute to a 19" tyre's grip- the compound and how the treads are arranged. Softer doesn't mean grippier (like the oldest Montys which felt more foamy than sticky), and you can get harder feeling compounds that are stickier, if that makes sense? The more cluttered a tread pattern- like the old Luna, oldest Montys, and the Echo/Cyko-Lite the less grippy especially on off-camber surfaces and natural trials.- These however work better/more suited for street/flat riding than trials. Completely slick isn't advisable for pure trials but for street/flatland it tends to offer better and more stable grip on dry, flat concrete.- because of relatively larger surface-area of slick tyres touching the ground when rolling. Same reason why street and park BMXs are slick but dirt and race use treads. Uneven surfaces need tread if you want grip.

What Monty's done here with its new Race tyre isn't completely 'new', in that for years already a lot of bike and uni riders have cut every other side tread off their tyres to achieve these things: more 'wiggle room' for the remaining side tread to grip on moves like sidehops, when jumping on jagged rocks, and to shed weight. This new Monty Race has basically just done that job for us and also has a completely revised carcass altogether from the similar Eagle Claw.

When you mention that trials tyres' tread pattern may be unimportant for what unicyclists use it for, I could agree for street/flat riding (then again, BMX tread patterns would probably be more ideal than borrowing from trials tyres) but that is a different ball park to actual trials riding where tread pattern can make a huge difference to how a tyre grips. For example the Try-All's triangular and pointy treads are crazily efficient at keeping you stuck on when riding along a round rail even if hanging on by the side treads quite literally. When you get to a certain level of mastery of techniques in uni trials (and bike) riding the tyre can completely change the feel of how you bounce and grip, it's very noticeable- hence I would refuse to ride with certain tyres for safety reasons as well as performance, but at the same time have my backups and most preferred tyres.

Hope that clears up some confusion

[trueuni]

What do you mean Mike?