We got universal health care!

[maestro8]

While watching some late night TV last night, I saw a commercial for a law firm that specializes in qualifying people for disability claims.

http://www.disabilityclaims.com/

Among the topics addressed are "obtaining disability benefits," "overturning a denial of disability benefits," "saving your job," "leaving your job," "maximizing your pension," and "retaining your health care benefits."

It seems they take a percentage of one's benefits, only after they've qualified.

So there you go. Now you can have professional help in gaming the system.

[maestro8]

Originally Posted by nick

But don't think it was easy, or that I was anything but dead broke and technically homeless the entire time.

You're pissing in the wind, my friend. Murse Ben's gonna think you're a billionaire who's made his fortunes from turning poor people into soylent green, regardless of what you post.

[wobbling bear]

lot of people (helped by professionals) are trying to get aroung the law and justice .... does this mean we shall not have law and judicial system?
hope not.
Justice should be reinforced to block such behaviours.
The same goes for public health systems.
Yes it can be inefficient, yes it can be abused ... is this a reason to give up?
hope not.
The main reason for a public health system is not charity! it's for you!
Now there may be a discussion about efficiency: normally an insurance system where everybody contributes should be more efficient... alas this is not automatically true. Every existing public system has severe efficiency problems. So it could be argued that a distributed , voluntary system could be more efficient: alas I do not see any existing proof of that -quite the contrary-
Here in France we have an hybrid system that mixes both approaches, it has many flaws but I will fight to make it better not to dump it because of these defects.

[BillyTheMountain]

Originally Posted by nick

Third, contracting yourself means that you pay taxes. It is what you should be doing to support the system that you want to create. It also provides protection in the case of unemployment!

Fourth, if you think the typical construction worker payment system sucks, then you should lobby to have it changed. Paying people under the table benefits the bosses. They can pay less, don't have to pay for insurance, unemployment, or a myriad of other costs associated with actually employing people!

Incorrect third point. An independent contractor is not employed, and cannot collect unemployment.

Fourth, lobbying will not change illegal tactics. The laws are already in place. Why not stand outside construction sites with a big sign saying this employer is avoiding paying taxes. those are nonUnion sites. Then get your legs broken.

[nick]

Originally Posted by BillyTheMountain

Incorrect third point. An independent contractor is not employed, and cannot collect unemployment.

After doing more research, it seems like it is largely dependent on if you have set up an LLC or sole proprietor business for yourself, and how well yell you have kept records of your employment. It is much more difficult to collect unemployment if you are not paying into that particular fund as an employer (of yourself, in this case), but not impossible. I would suggest that if you are set up as an independent contractor (and you want to have the option of collecting unemployment if the situation ever arises), that you should look more into the laws in your state and make sure you are taking the necessary steps to make it happen.

Originally Posted by BillyTheMountain

Fourth, lobbying will not change illegal tactics. The laws are already in place. Why not stand outside construction sites with a big sign saying this employer is avoiding paying taxes. those are nonUnion sites. Then get your legs broken.

You're right, it is already illegal, and most construction workers are improperly classified. If you are being taken advantage of like this you can report it to the IRS. There are plenty of web resources to help you with this, and plenty of law firms ready to take your case if things start to go bad for you. Start with a google search, and this website: http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/...=99921,00.html

[maestro8]

Originally Posted by wobbling bear

Justice should be reinforced to block such behaviours. The same goes for public health systems.

Thanks for the post. I see what you're trying to say, but in the US, it seems people are much more individualistic. They don't care for society as much as "what's in it for me?" I reach this conclusion because it seems no one is paying heed to the federal deficit... as long as our government can keep borrowing, people will keep taking whatever they can.

Given this bottomless pot of spending, public benefits are used by politicians as rewards in return for votes. "Vote for me and I'll put a chicken in every pot, bread in every basket". People aren't voting for a politician who will create a better society, they're voting for someone who will give them the most in return for their vote.

Healthcare is being treated as one of these chickens-in-a-pot. Right now it's not sustainable. Yes, politicians claim they're out to clean up waste and fraud, but what's motivating them? Nothing that I can see...

[wobbling bear]

Originally Posted by maestro8

Thanks for the post. I see what you're trying to say, but in the US, it seems people are much more individualistic.

I am not so sure: I have met a lot of "citizens" (aware of public good) in the US. I think you are too much pessimistic.
now about the pot: that happens everywhere (it's far worse in lot of countries and modern pushes for transparency through public publishing is an interesting new twist to democracy).
I sure do not know how to fix the system and I surely cannot deliver advices but what worries me is that according to the Economist newspaper the US health system is the most expensive in the world. Given that the calculation do not use a global economic accounting (that tries for example to quantify how much it costs not to apply preventive medicine) the cost is staggering. So it's up to citizens to be responsible and try to imagine progressive ways to fix and ameliorate: just rejecting every project to mend the system just for the sake of ideology won't fix anything at all.
yes it is a good thing to point out possible abuses and inefficiencies but throwing out the baby with the bath water won't do no good.

[Nurse Ben]

Nick,

Many people work under the table, it is not to "avoid" pating taxes, it is because there are many work situations where the profit is so thin that it's either get people to work for less, offer no benefits and skip paying the tax man, or there's no work.

I worked for many years in construction and most of the time it was under the table. Many, many people work under the table, and none of them are getting rich by it. I would think that you know this, but your words say otherwise.

My example was a good example because it was true, unlike all the fables I hear about welfare moms and people making bank by avoiding paying their fair share. And when I say lead carpenter, I was talking about a guy who was a skilled person, journeyman level, but due to the low volume of construction, the "crews" are small for a single house, and in this case he was working alone to finish a deck.

I work in a small outpatient medical office, but we are part of a larger health care non profit, part of which includes some large hospitals. The other day a "policy" was initiated that required our outpatient offices to attempt collections on unpaid debts incurred at the hospital. As you can imagine, some of these debts are quite large. We are losing patients already, they're afraid we'll cut them off or find some way to involve the law. If we had universal health care, there would be no need for this policy.

Many people are in an employment category called partical or under employed. Of this population, there are few who have benefits, and many in this population work under the table. Again, health insurance for all is meant to be paid for by all, which is why all pelple will pay a share, so it's not free, nor is it intended to be free, but it is going to more accessible for those who have less income.

Nick, really, you need to clear the cobwebs from your eyes, people who have under the table work are not going to "complain to the IRS" and risk losing their income, that is really a very silly statement. You may have lived in someone's garage, but you didn't take away the lesson of humility. Not everyone is like you, not everyone can be like you, but all people deserve to have a minimum level of care as part of society. We are not doing this now, America has some of the worst poverty in the developed world.

You speak from two sides of you mouth, one side says we need to help everyone, the other side says they need to pay their way. You can't have it both ways, something has to give. So if you are for it, then you are for it, stop fudging and letting your pocket book speak for your heart.

The saddest part for me is that we have the ability to provide better programs of social support, but we have a political system that protects the rich and they have used that to twist societies views of what is right and fair. I would hazard a guess that we have very few "rich" folks particpating on this forum, yet we have quite a few people who support policies that keep the rich rich and the poor poor.

How can anyone but a rich person see anything but the need to provide for the lesser advantaged?

The middle class has bee twisted into a political tool used to bolster the wealthy, absolutely amazing, and truly sad. Does the term robber baron mean anything to anyone? The only difference between now and yesteryear is the robber barons are more common and cunning.

[BillyTheMountain]

Originally Posted by Nurse Ben

but we are part of a larger health care non profit, part of which includes some large hospitals.

any profit goes into the CEOs pocket.

[maestro8]

Originally Posted by Nurse Ben

My example was a good example because it was true

Nick, ... Not everyone is like you, not everyone can be like you

You see, unless you're Nurse Ben, your testimonial is completely invalid, you heartless billionaire scumbag!

[nick]

Originally Posted by Nurse Ben

Nick,

Many people work under the table, it is not to "avoid" pating taxes, it is because there are many work situations where the profit is so thin that it's either get people to work for less, offer no benefits and skip paying the tax man, or there's no work.

First off, why put "avoid" in quotes? Don't use quotes to try to make it seem like not paying taxes is some minor faux pas. You wouldn't say:

Mary strangled Paul with an electrical cord, not to "murder" him, but only because she wanted to steal his wallet.

Would you?

Anyway, besides all that, you're not really being logical here. Working under the table means not paying taxes, which means more money in a construction worker's pocket. That is the one and only reason for working under the table.

People choose to work construction jobs that pay under the table because they will take home a full $10.00/hr. If they bag groceries at the store, they make $8.00/hr after taxes.

Originally Posted by Nurse Ben

I worked for many years in construction and most of the time it was under the table. Many, many people work under the table, and none of them are getting rich by it. I would think that you know this, but your words say otherwise.

Where did I say anyone was getting rich by working under the table? All I'm saying is that there is no special need for construction workers (or anyone else really) to avoid paying taxes! Yes, we should be providing for basic needs like health care, but that doesn't change the fact that all employed people should be paying taxes! Many people are in shitty jobs and still have to pay taxes! Making excuses for the construction workers isn't fair to the guys bagging groceries.

Originally Posted by Nurse Ben

My example was a good example because it was true, unlike all the fables I hear about welfare moms and people making bank by avoiding paying their fair share. And when I say lead carpenter, I was talking about a guy who was a skilled person, journeyman level, but due to the low volume of construction, the "crews" are small for a single house, and in this case he was working alone to finish a deck.

Your example was a bad example because of the reasons I already mentioned. the fact that it is true only makes it worse. How do you not understand that your example is another example of someone cheating the system, regardless of if it nets them a ton of money or not. I'm not claiming that the lead carpenter ended up a millionaire by skipping out on taxes. I'm just saying that if you're going to pick an example of someone who needs universal healthcare, you should probably pick the best possible example. Don't pick the guy who skips out on paying taxes!

Originally Posted by Nurse Ben

I work in a small outpatient medical office, but we are part of a larger health care non profit, part of which includes some large hospitals. The other day a "policy" was initiated that required our outpatient offices to attempt collections on unpaid debts incurred at the hospital. As you can imagine, some of these debts are quite large. We are losing patients already, they're afraid we'll cut them off or find some way to involve the law. If we had universal health care, there would be no need for this policy.

What in the hell does that have to do with anything?

Originally Posted by Nurse Ben

Many people are in an employment category called partical or under employed. Of this population, there are few who have benefits, and many in this population work under the table. Again, health insurance for all is meant to be paid for by all, which is why all pelple will pay a share, so it's not free, nor is it intended to be free, but it is going to more accessible for those who have less income.

I will say it again: People who work under the table are not paying their fair share. I'm not complaining that they are making life difficult for the rich. I'm complaining that working under the table is unfair to the majority of poor folks who do have to pay taxes!

Originally Posted by Nurse Ben

Nick, really, you need to clear the cobwebs from your eyes, people who have under the table work are not going to "complain to the IRS" and risk losing their income, that is really a very silly statement. You may have lived in someone's garage, but you didn't take away the lesson of humility. Not everyone is like you, not everyone can be like you, but all people deserve to have a minimum level of care as part of society. We are not doing this now, America has some of the worst poverty in the developed world.

Stop making excuses. The guy has options. Avoiding taxes is wrong. I didn't live in a garage, I lived in a mostly abandoned industrial building.

Originally Posted by Nurse Ben

You speak from two sides of you mouth, one side says we need to help everyone, the other side says they need to pay their way. You can't have it both ways, something has to give. So if you are for it, then you are for it, stop fudging and letting your pocket book speak for your heart.

"From each according to his abilities, to each according to his need." Do you know who said that? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_ea...ng_to_his_need

That is what I'm arguing. Taxes are the "according to his abilities" part. Healthcare and other public services are the "according to his need" part.

Originally Posted by Nurse Ben

The saddest part for me is that we have the ability to provide better programs of social support, but we have a political system that protects the rich and they have used that to twist societies views of what is right and fair. I would hazard a guess that we have very few "rich" folks particpating on this forum, yet we have quite a few people who support policies that keep the rich rich and the poor poor.

I'll say it again: The saddest part for me is that you and I are probably on the same side in all this, but we're never going to get the things we want because you don't seem to grasp simple concepts.

Originally Posted by Nurse Ben

How can anyone but a rich person see anything but the need to provide for the lesser advantaged?

Can you make this statement less confusing somehow? I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Originally Posted by Nurse Ben

The middle class has bee twisted into a political tool used to bolster the wealthy, absolutely amazing, and truly sad. Does the term robber baron mean anything to anyone? The only difference between now and yesteryear is the robber barons are more common and cunning.

Where was I ever bolstering the wealthy? Here are some quotes from my past posts:

Originally Posted by nick

Yes. It is expensive. I'm in favor of universal, single payer health care.

Originally Posted by nick

... I am in favor of socialized healthcare.

Originally Posted by nick

I think the wealthiest among us should be paying 90% tax rates (or whatever),

Originally Posted by nick

I think the universal healthcare plan recently passed is a very small step in the right direction.

As someone who shares your viewpoints on many things (to one degree or another), and from a very practical standpoint: If you want to make some progress on providing social programs and healthcare to everyone, stop being dumb about it. Please.

[Nurse Ben]

Nick, I don't doubt you believe health care for all is a good thing, I can see that from your posts.

What I'm saying is that some people are so close to the edge financially that they will do whatever it takes, be it steal, hurt others, and even undercut the tax system in order to make ends meet, this is the nature of being poor.

However, to say that all people in poverty will do this, that is simply not accurate, and is the lacking substance behind myths like the welfare mom. To say that all poor people act with impunity is to say that all people with guns are killers; yeah, a little thread drift, but I'm sure you get my point.

What I meant in the earlier thread about being amazed that anyone but the rich would support, lets call it the "Republican agenda", is that the ones who benefit are the rich. In other words, why do so many people want the rich to be richer? So far, the theme of the rich getting richer has yet to enrich anyone but the rich...

[Nurse Ben]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nurse Ben
but we are part of a larger health care non profit, part of which includes some large hospitals.

Originally Posted by BillyTheMountain
any profit goes into the CEOs pocket

I suppose it's possible he/she is making a bundle, but I doubt it. We have undergone a lot of belt tightening over the past five years, and since we are a non profit, the wages are available for public scrutiny which would probably not lead to higher wages. Then again, I know of instances where that is not the case

I'd like to see a graduated wage scale, such a thing has been used in some business models, where the lowest paid worker makes a percentage of the highest paid worker. I can't think of any examples other than collectives, but the idea is to make sure wealth is distributed more fairly, so everyone gets richer together or something like that.

My wages are linked to productivity/reimbursements, so I have a "goal" to see about eighty clients per forty hours work week. The number is not set in stone because our reimbursements vary widely based on the billing code and the insurance billed. But in all honestly, community mental health is a chronic health care loser, so we can only "survive" in association with a larger and overall profitable health care system.

For profit mental health care providers "survive" by limiting the number of state insured clients they see or they only see private insurance and cash clients.

The real limiting factor, or what will become know as the 500# gorilla in the room, is that there are currently not enough providers to see all of the existing state insured clients, esp in rural areas. So folks are already driving hours to see their PCP, esp for mental health, pediatrics, and women's health. When the new system starts to add people to the state insurance plan, we will be inundated, so the waits will increase and the distance people travel for care will increase.

^This^ will be the limiting factor and may well become the means for triage, though I expect that the ER is going to have to change in order to accomodate the influx of new clients who can't wait/drive for care.

If you do some reading on Canada's health care challenges, you may see some parallels or at least get a sense for what to expect in the next decade...any of our Canadians neighbors care to chime in?

[BillyTheMountain]

Originally Posted by Nurse Ben

I suppose it's possible he/she is making a bundle, but I doubt it. We have undergone a lot of belt tightening over the past five years, and since we are a non profit, the wages are available for public scrutiny which would probably not lead to higher wages. Then again, I know of instances where that is not the case

Find out!

The Huffington Post reports that many leaders of non-profit interest or lobbying groups are earning big-time, seven-figure paychecks. For example, Tom Donohue, the CEO of the US Chamber of Commerce, took home $4.7 million in 2010. American Petroleum Institute CEO Jack Gerard, did even better, earning $6.4 million in the same year.

Read more: http://www.minyanville.com/mvpremium...#ixzz21JP3lYfn

[maestro8]

Originally Posted by nick

I'll say it again: The saddest part for me is that you and I are probably on the same side in all this, but we're never going to get the things we want because you don't seem to grasp simple concepts.

Be fair, nick. Nurse Ben found out how to turn on his computer, navigate to unicyclist.com and click the "Post" button. That's all he needs to do to amuse himself. If you expect anything more, you're only disappointing yourself.