Religion and homosexuality.

[feel the light]

You can't identify a group that is more anti socialist and pro military than the Christian right. Both sides are not the same. On the left we have secular pro socialist war machine protesters. On the the right we have war mongering anti socialists protesting the free healing of the sick. And to the right of them we have the religious right, the looniest most war loving of all.

How can this be ? As a non theist, it is difficult for me to explain this with theology. But being a sport, I will try.

So lets assume, for debate purposes, that both Jesus and Satan are as real as you. Jesus left and hasn't returned yet. That leaves us with Satan, to write the bible and inspire the leaders of the church. When you pray and get an answer in your heart telling you to vote for the guy who wants to build more bombs to drop on children, the little voice telling you you can be forgiven for such sin is Satan. A brilliant system, when the time comes for the rapture, Satan has made it easy for Jesus to sort them out. They will be wearing the instrument of Jesus's execution around their necks. When asked why, they will say because it helps them to reflect fondly on "good Friday".
Sorta like making it easy for John Lennon to recognizes his true fans. They are the people not wearing little gold pistols on a chain around their neck. Clever Satan, very clever indeed.

And because Satan is the god of false promises, it with be the un Jesus like who will be raptured off, to go with Satan, not Jesus. That will leave Jesus with a bunch of peace loving secular hippy type folks to build heaven on earth. He won't care if they refuse to worship him slavishly, as if he was the second coming of Hitler. Glory wasn't his thing, he wanted peace.

As a non theist, I have no sacred texts to point to while insisting the above story is reality. However, it does match the truth we are seeing on the ground. The more a group embraces biblical Christianity, the more right wing, anti socialist , pro military they vote in the USA. That is a political fact we all have to live with in the USA. At least for now.

[BillyTheMountain]

Originally Posted by feel the light

1. You can't identify a group that is more anti socialist and pro military than the Christian right.

2. As a non theist, it is difficult for me to explain this with theology. But being a sport, I will try.

1. There are many non-violent Christians on the left and right, including specific non-violent Christian movements and organizations.

2. Psychology and sociology explain human behavior, and since Christians are human, I recommend you look to psych and sociology to understand them.

Theology is the rational and systematic study of religion and its influences and of the nature of religious truth; the study of a god or, more generally, the study of religious faith, practice, and experience, or of spirituality.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theology

[feel the light]

You are a fair and interesting poster, who has done a great deal to enrich this forum. I cannot attack you as a person because there is a bond of respect and affection between us, after all these years. You deserve to be told that I believe you are not a violence loving Christian.

What is your explanation for why born again Christians are as a group the most un Jesus like voters ? In the sense that they are the most militaristic (as a political group ) ?

[BillyTheMountain]

Originally Posted by feel the light

You are a fair and interesting poster, who has done a great deal to enrich this forum. I cannot attack you as a person because there is a bond of respect and affection between us, after all these years. You deserve to be told that I believe you are not a violence loving Christian.

What is your explanation for why born again Christians are as a group the most un Jesus like voters ? In the sense that they are the most militaristic (as a political group ) ?

Thanks! though viewing me as a Christian might be a bit narrow, I don't disavow it (recall, I began the Jewish unicyclists only thread).

I have repeated my view here numerous times, that these so-called Christians you speak of are actually idol worshippers. They have invented an idol, clearly of their own making, suited to their own values, and project their idolatry onto the image of Jesus.

It happens everywhere, as when the "Christians" converted some Africans, they just gave their African saints Christian names. To an outsider, they appear to be Christian, but on closer inspection, it's the same old religion --only the names have changed.

Billy

[Michaelgoround]

Originally Posted by feel the light

You can't identify a group that is more anti socialist and pro military than the Christian right. Both sides are not the same. On the left we have secular pro socialist war machine protesters. On the the right we have war mongering anti socialists protesting the free healing of the sick. And to the right of them we have the religious right, the looniest most war loving of all.

How can this be ? As a non theist, it is difficult for me to explain this with theology. But being a sport, I will try.

So lets assume, for debate purposes, that both Jesus and Satan are as real as you. Jesus left and hasn't returned yet. That leaves us with Satan, to write the bible and inspire the leaders of the church. When you pray and get an answer in your heart telling you to vote for the guy who wants to build more bombs to drop on children, the little voice telling you you can be forgiven for such sin is Satan. A brilliant system, when the time comes for the rapture, Satan has made it easy for Jesus to sort them out. They will be wearing the instrument of Jesus's execution around their necks. When asked why, they will say because it helps them to reflect fondly on "good Friday".
Sorta like making it easy for John Lennon to recognizes his true fans. They are the people not wearing little gold pistols on a chain around their neck. Clever Satan, very clever indeed.

And because Satan is the god of false promises, it with be the un Jesus like who will be raptured off, to go with Satan, not Jesus. That will leave Jesus with a bunch of peace loving secular hippy type folks to build heaven on earth. He won't care if they refuse to worship him slavishly, as if he was the second coming of Hitler. Glory wasn't his thing, he wanted peace.

As a non theist, I have no sacred texts to point to while insisting the above story is reality. However, it does match the truth we are seeing on the ground. The more a group embraces biblical Christianity, the more right wing, anti socialist , pro military they vote in the USA. That is a political fact we all have to live with in the USA. At least for now.

Certainly the church has been influenced by that being, but that does not mean that their is not a different "voice" out there spreading hope and truth. I have heard this voice of truth on at least several different occasions. How do I know this voice is true? Well it always followed the Bible and I got this certain feeling when it spoke to me. Also it confirmed itself by the happening of events that I could certainly not predict. In reference to the event, it perhaps could have very well been a coincidence, but I do not see that happening. And scriptural backing for this spirit is found all throughout both testaments of the Bible (as is the concept of trinity). This section, from Acts 2 seems to have both Old and New testament promises of the Spirit.

Also, Jesus multiple times said that all who call on "his name" will not be saved because all who cry out "Lord, Lord" are not truly followers of him (as with any institution). But those who truly love and follow him will be saved. Jesus said "If you love me, you'll follow my commandments". John 14:15 with some context plus an extra section with Jesus claiming deity before. And many fall under the myth of such redemptive violence, Christian and non-Christian alike.
I say let the world do what the world does, but you(Christian) are called to something higher since you have the Lord in you. He forgave you so much, how can you not forgive others when you could very well be like they are? It is only by the grace of God that one can be saved. If man simply followed the commandment "Love God, Love people" much destruction would be relieved from this world.
And the cross is merely a fashion statement for many people, nothing more. Of course that is an assumption by me, not knowing the hearts of men.

If you are gonna take the rapture out of the Bible, you probably should take the death and destruction part out as well. All your "fun loving hippies" are gonna end up killing each other if that is true. And also suffer many calamities. I've never checked into the whole Revelation thing really, but the death would seem to come with it the rapture according to lot's of "theologians". I cannot rightfully judge though, myself having not read it hardly at all.

Also Jesus excepted the glory of man on at least several occasions. People praised him straight to his face. The most popular instance being the "Triumphal entry". And when the Father is glorified the Son is also glorified. Jesus himself made the I am claim (thus claiming to be God) in John 8 at the very end. I gave you context as the speech before prepares you for the claim and is very interesting. "God" in parentheses has the I am claim in the old testament.

I would very much disagree with you there. The more a group identifies itself with Christ, the more loving they become. Perhaps some will be decieved by the culture, as "Christians" tend to live out the gospel according to cultural norms rather then what the gospel says. But when they realize they should look at culture through the Gospel and not the gospel through culture, that is when hearts will melt and truly change. Jesus spoke about false prophets coming. They have and they have infected the "body of Christ", but as is seen in the old testament, there will always be a remnant fo true believers. Who are these true beleivers? I'm not sure I yet know, but I can certainly see elements of Christ in all people I come accross saved and unsaved. I must not worry about what others are doing, but worry about what I myself am doing. Not that i should not seek to show them truth, but that I should not heavily judge them, as I myself am also a man. Also, Jesus told Peter not to worry about john, but worry about what he had to do.

Also, a question for you. Why do you think the disciples died for what they taught? Why do you think they suffered such persectutions? Do you think that 12 men would gladly give their lives for what they knew was a lie? Also, if it was a lie, why did no one call them out?

I'd reccomend for you More Than a Carpenter (simple apologetics) and Jesus for President (political). I also might be able to scrounge up some essays I wrote. Looking back on some of the stuff I wrote I can't beleive I wrote it. The "Holy Spirit" which you may not have heard of before puts great things on the hearts of men.

I really do think you would like my ethics paper. Pretty short and I got a 100 on it. I had to write one on Jesus, as the book did not give him credit and he is nearly always on my mind in some way. Plus the whole savior thing probably makes him a worthy thing to write about.

[Michaelgoround]

Originally Posted by BillyTheMountain

Thanks! though viewing me as a Christian might be a bit narrow, I don't disavow it (recall, I began the Jewish unicyclists only thread).

I have repeated my view here numerous times, that these so-called Christians you speak of are actually idol worshippers. They have invented an idol, clearly of their own making, suited to their own values, and project their idolatry onto the image of Jesus.

It happens everywhere, as when the "Christians" converted some Africans, they just gave their African saints Christian names. To an outsider, they appear to be Christian, but on closer inspection, it's the same old religion --only the names have changed.

Billy

Thinking that question was aimed at billy and anyways I pretty much agree with what he said. That is if my brain is still functioning correctly afte reading/writing all of the above.

[johnfoss]

Originally Posted by Michaelgoround

...I cannot support birth-control. I would be forever wondering what child could have been if I hadn't used it.

I commend you on your great restraint; in never having sex until you are ready to be a daddy. There are too many out there who are the opposite; having indiscriminate sex and never ready to be a daddy...

[johnfoss]

Originally Posted by siafirede

To most Christians, the bible is like a software license. Nobody actually reads it. They just scroll to the bottom and click "I agree."

If it were possible to have separate sig lines in each forum, that would be my one for Just Conversation. Love it!

[DSchmitt]

Originally Posted by johnfoss

I commend you on your great restraint; in never having sex until you are ready to be a daddy. There are too many out there who are the opposite; having indiscriminate sex and never ready to be a daddy...

yea true, i commend him too...i couldn't do that.



just don't call me a "child murderer" if i choose to use birth control

[johnfoss]

Originally Posted by DSchmitt

just don't call me a "child murderer" if i choose to use birth control

How about Sperm Killer? Which of course brings up the question of masturbation (and wet dreams). How many are killed each time?

[JJuggle]

Originally Posted by johnfoss

How about Sperm Killer? Which of course brings up the question of masturbation (and wet dreams). How many are killed each time?

All of these questions, and more, were answered in 1972: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0068555/

[BillyTheMountain]

Originally Posted by johnfoss

I commend you on your great restraint; in never having sex until you are ready to be a daddy. There are too many out there who are the opposite; having indiscriminate sex and never ready to be a daddy...

is masturbation sex?

[MacBookProAR]

I could care less what people do in their own homes. I have no argument there.

Here is the issue at hand and it comes from whatever side you are on. I tend to lean conservative, but have some liberal views. That is neither here nor there though.

Both the right and the left suffer from finger pointing and "rights based" arguments. Take the gay piece out of this argument and substitute anything that you want into it.

Guns, homosexuality, freedom of speech, free health care etc etc... they all are a rights issue.

Those that fight for homosexuality rights may say that I don't have a right to own a gun. They are enforcing their views on me and trying to take that away from me. Too many people fail to see that they are being hypocritical in their battles.

Those that want free healthcare try and say that everyone should have the right to free health care... They are removing the right from those that work hard for their money and saying that they should be forced to pay for those that may be less-fortunate or just lazy.

None of this will be sorted out until both sides realize that they are pulling in opposite directions and using circular reasoning to win their own battles.

I think people as a whole should be free to do as they please within reason. Obviously running around killing people if that is your thing would be deemed wrong by society as a whole and can't be allowed.

The truth of the matter is that taking away a right that we have right now is bad for everyone that is fighting for what they want to be allowed. Take the two big ones in the USA right now. Gay rights and Gun rights. Instead of grouping what we are trying to get legalized or keep as a freedom into smaller groups people should be fighting for "rights" as a whole. This creates a bigger group fighting for multiple causes and it is harder for those that may be against something to stop it.

Any minority that is fighting for their views to be heard shouldn't appose another minority. They are at their most fundamental level on the same team.

One last thing: It was said above that Jesus said "judge not lest ye be judged" If you check the actual translation in its literary form it more correctly states "You will be judged with the same measurement that you judge others". The latter can be much more frightening for some.

[MuniAddict]

Originally Posted by BillyTheMountain

is masturbation sex?

Talk to the hand! (or ask a "palm" reader!)

[emile]

Originally Posted by MuniAddict

Talk to the hand! (or ask a "palm" reader!)

AHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA! I laughed out loud.