Religion and homosexuality.

[Michaelgoround]

Originally Posted by feel the light

To teach a gospel of love and responsibility where one explains how to have a devoted and caring relationship with a girl, without doing baby making sex, this is not known in Jewish, Christian, or Islamic teachings. In fact, such teachings would be an extreme of blasphemy. Birth control works best when taught, it is not natural to be sharper than Bristol Palin.

So you are saying that the Bible does indeed preach a loving and caring marriage relationship? I'm sorry I have trouble; misunderstanding wordings sometime.

Right now, I do not think I would want to have anal sex at all (just seems really gross to me) and I cannot support birth-control. I would be forever wondering what child could have been if I hadn't used it. It's almost as bad, if not as bad, as abortion to me (child murder I like to call it).

I liked your pointer analogy BTW. Jesus says judge not so that you not be judged. And Paul says "I do not even judge myself". My whole deal on this matter is that I can't even understand myself, how can i fully understand another? We can only see the outward appearance of somebody, we cannot see their heart (mind, whatever you wish to call it) and if we did I think we would be most thoroughly confused. Also I am not saying don't make character evaluations of people, just don't condemn them. There is one that "condemns" and he is far greater then we could hope to be, just as his understanding is.

[feel the light]

Thank you everyone for your comments, it helps to think that sometime people actually read my stories. Rather than debate theological nuances (not my best suit), I have a story about sexual revulsion.

It is common place as pointer dogs in a field in the fall to hear religious folk go on about how disgusting homo sex must be. Here is a story about the other side of the coin.

I was a hetro guy working as a dish washer at Pancho and Lefties, a Tex Mex restaurant owned by 3 gay guys. The staff was about half gay/half hetro. No one was bi that I remember, and we didn't have crazy sex there. They really liked me after I fixed the blower over the stove. Yes, I gave 3 gay guys a blow job for 5 $/hr. I am good at wiring, they were going to shut the place down, but it only took me climbing up on the roof and fixing the wiring to the blower, and we were back in biz. I can fix things.

But anyway, back to the grossing out the gays story. Five minutes before I was going to head for work, a cute girl I knew came to visit me in my van (I was a hippy living in a van then). I started twisting her knobs, and getting a lot of sexual reception, this was a fun girl but a slow one. I had a lot of fun, and showed up at work almost 2 hrs. late.

Trying to be reasonable, I gave my 3 gay bosses an honest accounting. However, as I described the various knob turnings and times required to achieve what they clearly saw as distasteful, they grew almost ashen.

It was as if I had a gay employee who was late, and as an excuse he gave me a graphic depiction of the joys and times required for different kinds of gay sex. To me it seemed like a reasonable, honest explanation for why I was so late.

They didn't fire me, but I really grossed them out, and Bobby (the bossy one of the three), told me that if I am ever late again, just go do the dishes. "We really, really, don't care why you are late."

So just like the dog must point, most gays are as grossed out by hetro sex as hetros are by gay sex. I never watch gay porn. I am quite sure many of my gay friends never watch hetro porn. Although I have many bi female friends, male bisexuality is very rare. There is a strong feeling of revulsion that goes both ways.

[unireed]

it's hetero, not hetro.

but good point, i bet a lot of poeple dont think about things like this. congrats about the cute girl.

[BillyTheMountain]

Originally Posted by feel the light

most gays are as grossed out by hetro sex as hetros are by gay sex. I never watch gay pr0n. I am quite sure many of my gay friends never watch hetro porn. Although I have many bi female friends, male bisexuality is very rare. There is a strong feeling of revulsion that goes both ways.

many straight men like lesbian pron
http://www.shortnews.com/start.cfm?id=31047

Heterosexual Women Aroused by Lesbian Pron

A study by Northwestern University measured women's sexual arousal. It is long known that heterosexual men are predominantly aroused by images with women and homosexual men are aroused by images of just men. This is not the case with women.

The researchers looked at genital and psychological arousal and found that both lesbian and heterosexual women were aroused by p0rnographic movies featuring lesbians. They say this shows that male and female brains differ.

However, the study states that most of the heterosexual women aroused by lesbian p0rn prefer sex with men than with women. But, because of the similarities in arousal, this suggests women may be more flexible in their sexual orientation.

[BillyTheMountain]

Originally Posted by Michaelgoround

The Bible is much more complex then you seem to describe it, as also Judaism and probably Islam.

....Christians often seem to preach the oppisite of what Jesus said and they most certainly do not live it out.

The Sermon on the Mount is a very short synopsis of Jesus teachings. And I'm thinking not completely full.

The "ground zero imam" was speaking at a memorial for Daniel Pearl, and echoes your point about the three Bible religions:

We are here to assert the Islamic conviction of the moral equivalency of our Abrahamic faiths. If to be a Jew means to say with all one's heart, mind and soul Shma` Yisrael, Adonai Elohenu Adonai Ahad; hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One, not only today I am a Jew, I have always been one, Mr. Pearl.

If to be a Christian is to love the Lord our God with all of my heart, mind and soul, and to love for my fellow human being what I love for myself, then not only am I a Christian, but I have always been one Mr. Pearl.

And I am here to inform you, with the full authority of the Quranic texts and the practice of the Prophet Muhammad, that to say La ilaha illallah Muhammadun rasulullah is no different.

It expresses the same theological and ethical principles and values.

Full text:
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/...een-one/61761/

You might be interested in a great book What Jesus Meant, by garry wills.

Billy

[phlegm]

Death, taxes, and mscalisi posting about Proposition 8.

Speaking of religion and homosexuality, conservative Christians and gays? Watch this.

[mscalisi]

Fair enough, but if you're going to call me out on my fixation on the prop 8 battle, I'm going to call you out on your fixation on my fixation.

...and here's a fun video on bible-based marriage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEeF_zbG-nU

Originally Posted by phlegm

Death, taxes, and mscalisi posting about Proposition 8.

Speaking of religion and homosexuality, conservative Christians and gays? Watch this.

[phlegm]

Ooh, ooh! Post more pot stirring diagrams and videos! I need more to get my daily fix of gay marriage sloganeering.

[Michaelgoround]

Originally Posted by BillyTheMountain

The "ground zero imam" was speaking at a memorial for Daniel Pearl, and echoes your point about the three Bible religions:

We are here to assert the Islamic conviction of the moral equivalency of our Abrahamic faiths. If to be a Jew means to say with all one's heart, mind and soul Shma` Yisrael, Adonai Elohenu Adonai Ahad; hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One, not only today I am a Jew, I have always been one, Mr. Pearl.

If to be a Christian is to love the Lord our God with all of my heart, mind and soul, and to love for my fellow human being what I love for myself, then not only am I a Christian, but I have always been one Mr. Pearl.

And I am here to inform you, with the full authority of the Quranic texts and the practice of the Prophet Muhammad, that to say La ilaha illallah Muhammadun rasulullah is no different.

It expresses the same theological and ethical principles and values.

Full text:
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/...een-one/61761/

You might be interested in a great book What Jesus Meant, by Garry wills.

Billy

Billy I do see that there is truth in every religion (maybe I should say nearly) because the best lie, as they say, is a partial truth. And I believe they all or mostly contain some truth. I picked up a bit of a Buddhist book the other day and found some quite "truthful" stories in it. But again there is only one thing that can save us from ourselves and that is Jesus Christ. He has done great work in me, and if I continue to allow I am sure he will do more.

Also the values can be slightly to drastically different depending on who is reading it among other things which I can't seem to put in words very simply. I just wanted to say that when I read the Bible I see a God crying out to his people: Repent! Repent! Repent! Come to me you who are burdened and I will give you rest, please do not flee from me, but come towards me so that we might rejoice with one another. I still do not understand God and might not ever, at least in this lifetime I know I will never fully understand. But as some people say: If you could fully understand God would he really be what he claims?

I checked the book out a bit and I like a lot of what that dude said (in the article). The author seems to very much have his head on his shoulders. I am growing quite tired of this American Christianity which has come out of our "great" empire. Jesus saw that Empire corrupts, that is to say that power, money, and the feeling of superiority that often comes with it corrupts. Jesus did not teach idly.

Servanthood and Humility

Riches Corrupt In the second one I guess I am more reffering to a corruption of purpose.


Anyways, in getting back on topic somewhat, I believe that Jesus would rebuke many a "Christian" leader today for being so hurtful and hateful to homosexuality. He rebuked the pharisees all the time for holding themselves piously. He perhaps would tell them that "Only those who are sick are in need of a physician" . Which I see as saying only those who recognize they are sick need one, for the pharisees were also sick just as modern day pastors are. As I guy from my favorite band says "We must recognize the greed within ourselves."

[mscalisi]

Someday this won't be an issue anymore, and then I'll shut up.

The video was touching, and Marin seems sincere in his quest. Hopefully he will be a catalyst for change within the christian community.

Unfortunately, Christians as a group, still push to limits other people's rights. Until that stops, they will be under fire from those who support equal rights. That includes uprooting hipocracy.

Originally Posted by phlegm

Ooh, ooh! Post more pot stirring diagrams and videos! I need more to get my daily fix of gay marriage sloganeering.

[phlegm]

Originally Posted by mscalisi

Someday this won't be an issue anymore, and then I'll shut up.

Do you really think goofy internet media and online banter will change anyone's mind?

The video was touching, and Marin seems sincere in his quest. Hopefully he will be a catalyst for change within the christian community.

It's remarkable that CBN covered this story. I think he is/will be successful because he appears to be building genuine relationships with people.

Unfortunately, Christians as a group, still push to limits other people's rights. Until that stops, they will be under fire from those who support equal rights. That includes uprooting hipocracy.

Do you think the anxious tension of life will ever be resolved? The thing about uprooting hypocrisy is that there's always that giant plank to deal with.

[siafirede]

Originally Posted by mscalisi

Therefore, by necessity, those who follow the bible, pick choose the what they follow.

To most Christians, the bible is like a software license. Nobody actually reads it. They just scroll to the bottom and click "I agree."

[BillyTheMountain]

Originally Posted by Michaelgoround

Anyways, in getting back on topic somewhat, I believe that Jesus would rebuke many a "Christian" leader today for being so hurtful and hateful to homosexuality. He rebuked the pharisees all the time for holding themselves piously. He perhaps would tell them that "Only those who are sick are in need of a physician" . Which I see as saying only those who recognize they are sick need one, for the pharisees were also sick just as modern day pastors are. As I guy from my favorite band says "We must recognize the greed within ourselves."

as many great religious leaders of various religions have pointed out, judging others so harshly gets in the way of the commandment to love your neighbor.

Glad you liked what you heard about the book!

Billy

[feel the light]

[QUOTE=

If you want to ask me any questions I'm open to them. I know I can't answer everything. No one but the breather of the universe can do that. We must all have faith, and we all do.[/QUOTE]

Here is my question. Jesus would, should you ask for his coat, offer you his cloak as well. Then he would walk around nude until he could score another cloak. So an un Jesus person should rail against public nudity as sinful and wear fine clothes at all public appearances.

Jesus always preached outdoors, offering to give all his money to the people, and only entering the temples to denounce and piss off the people making money there. So the un Jesus should always preach in the largest most ornate building possible, funding it's construction by asking people for money, and taking a large salary for running this grand building.

Jesus said to pay your taxes, and to help the poor. So un Jesus should oppose taxing the top 1 % at a higher rate than the poor, and insist on balancing the budget by eliminating all government aid to the poor.

Jesus said to be brave. If a man strikes you on one cheek , offer him the other. So un Jesus should maximize fear at any small attach, and insist always on maximizing the military budget, and mercilessly attack any potential enemies preemptively with over whelming firepower, caring not a bit about the loss of life.

So, the question is, if you had to bet 100 $ you could identify an un Jesus person by asking a random USA adult only one question, could you beat this question ? I would ask them if they are a born again Christian. If they say yes, it's 70 % odds that they will side with all the un Jesus above.

So the question, and challenge, is can you find a better question to find an un Jesus voter (as defined by their support for the un Jesus listed above) ?

You get to ask them only one question. To find an un Jesus voter, I'm saying just ask them if they are a born again Christian. You know, it's almost like they think they have found a magical asshole forgiveness pill. I personally, am both morally appalled and somewhat afraid to take such un Jesus opinions. Perhaps I am not sure enough my sins will be forgiven ? Despite being a non theist, I am getting good enough at theology to phrase a decent theological question.

What is the best single question you could ask a USA voter to find out if they supported all the un Jesus stuff above ?

[Michaelgoround]

Originally Posted by feel the light

Here is my question. Jesus would, should you ask for his coat, offer you his cloak as well. Then he would walk around nude until he could score another cloak. So an un Jesus person should rail against public nudity as sinful and wear fine clothes at all public appearances.

Jesus always preached outdoors, offering to give all his money to the people, and only entering the temples to denounce and piss off the people making money there. So the un Jesus should always preach in the largest most ornate building possible, funding it's construction by asking people for money, and taking a large salary for running this grand building.

Jesus said to pay your taxes, and to help the poor. So un Jesus should oppose taxing the top 1 % at a higher rate than the poor, and insist on balancing the budget by eliminating all government aid to the poor.

Jesus said to be brave. If a man strikes you on one cheek , offer him the other. So un Jesus should maximize fear at any small attach, and insist always on maximizing the military budget, and mercilessly attack any potential enemies preemptively with over whelming firepower, caring not a bit about the loss of life.

So, the question is, if you had to bet 100 $ you could identify an un Jesus person by asking a random USA adult only one question, could you beat this question ? I would ask them if they are a born again Christian. If they say yes, it's 70 % odds that they will side with all the un Jesus above.

So the question, and challenge, is can you find a better question to find an un Jesus voter (as defined by their support for the un Jesus listed above) ?

You get to ask them only one question. To find an un Jesus voter, I'm saying just ask them if they are a born again Christian. You know, it's almost like they think they have found a magical asshole forgiveness pill. I personally, am both morally appalled and somewhat afraid to take such un Jesus opinions. Perhaps I am not sure enough my sins will be forgiven ? Despite being a non theist, I am getting good enough at theology to phrase a decent theological question.

What is the best single question you could ask a USA voter to find out if they supported all the un Jesus stuff above ?

Are you a Republican? Or perhaps even, do you vote? Because both sides support those kind of things. Both being evil (or making evil/selfish decisions), should we choose the lesser of both or none at all? Quite honestley, I do not support any government ATM. I think government is a creation by man in order to parade his dominance over another (group of men). I think the church is in great need of change and has been for generations, but as God stated somewhere in the Old Testament, there will always be a remmnant. One such remnant is a group called the simple way, and their are plenty besides, they are just the group I am most familar with. http://thesimpleway.org/ They preach for many, if not most, of the things Jesus preached for. And they do not preach it with idle words and bable, but with action and love. One amazing quote I have heard from them is something like this: "We must do all acts, great and small, with great love." and do you know where their love comes from? The one who first loved us and demonstrated that love by hanging on tree amongst more serious things. This loving messiah has done more to soften the hearts of man then anyone I can think of. He said to "let love to overcome hate" and "not to repay evil with evil". Thus make peace not war. "When someone strikes you on the cheeck turn to them the other also."
Now he does not simply say lay down and die, but go about things the third way (turn the cheek, give up the cloak, walk an extra mile). Let us look at my favorite of these examples, the giving up of ones cloak. What we must understand about this example is that this was only done to the poor who had nothing else to give but the clothes they were wearing. By doing this you were exposing the greed of the man suing you and also pubicly embarrasing him, because in the Jewish cluture the shame was not so much on the naked person, but on the person that made the other naked. (Gen. 9:20-27) "You can have my cloak and even my underware, but you cannot have my soul and my dignity."

The whole cloak stealing was under Deut 24:10-13.

And the only reason I can give you for the way all those "Christians" are is the depravity of man. I am also like them in a lot of ways, but sense excepting Christ he has begun to open my eyes to our poverty. He is leading me into a way of love that will hopefully one day utterly consume me. May I not seek my own gain, but that of others and God. And by not seeking your own gain, that does not mean you or I cannot have any fun. Just look at those simpleway folks. They seem to usually be having a good time with one another!

If I left out something just let me know. My mind has focsuing problems and it is hard to read and respond to someone fully. Plus I have to mow a lawn.

Also on the subject of giving. Christians and non-Chritains alike do not give enough to others. I beleive it is the churches job to love on the poor, but we jsut don't see that. Why? I would have to say greed for more things that will eventually not matter in the slightest, because we cannot take our things into death. One of my favorite quotes is: There is enough for everyones need, but not enough for everyones freed. And as Americans we live in a culture all about self and propelling ones self further i society, thus we are greedy.