brakes

[Rowan]

Originally Posted by jtrops

Truthfully though, this discussion has turned into Rowan against the world, and it's tiring and not fun.

There isn't any truth in your statement as there are only a few people replying in this thread, so you are not the world. I'm not against ...I'm with. The brake works against the hill, I try to work with the hill. The hills are of the world.

Originally Posted by jtrops

It was easy to measure the difference. Thirty minutes without a brake, and 22 with it. That isn't statistical spin.

So in your scientific recording of this journey, you were able to keep all external factors equal, and you did not introduce any bias with your opinion of how great brakes are? Did you not go out riding extra slow because you thought the brake was lacking or did you give it all you had? I don't see how your easy measurement stacks up to data showing me that small wheels need brakes. There is no reason why you can't put brakes on a track racing unicycle but nobody seems to do it. Brakes don't increase your spinning speed directly. Try putting the brakes on without pedalling and see how fast you go.

[Nurse Ben]

Time for thread closure.

[Rowan]

Originally Posted by Nurse Ben

Time for thread closure.

Lol I've heard that before a few times. It will die of natural causes. You see the little X in the top corner? That is how you close a thread, not by posting in it

[saskatchewanian]

Bales must be cheep right now based on how many straw men I see standing around.


This does seem like a good place to discuss the negatives of having a brake and there are some real negatives. I don't think "they slow you down" really counts.

Adds complexity: I love the simplicity of a unicycle and this distracts from that a bit. It is also one more thing to potentially break on a unicycle, especially with hydraulic lines.

Adds weight: All brakes weigh something. Some are worse than others. Hydraulic rim brakes are among the heaviest and BMX style caliper brakes are among the lightest.

Unintentional brake rub: This can be a major problem and is much worse on some setups than others.

- From frame flex -
This is mostly an issue with 36" unicycles because their frames inherently have more flex than their smaller counterparts. Nimbus dual-triangle frames are probably the most notorious for allowing brake rub. This can happen on mounting, sharp or jerky turns, when mashing up a hill or even when dooing hard leg braking. Hydraulic rim brakes are probably the worst for this as they pads don't move out of the way very easily and they tend to have tight rim clearances.

- from leg strikes -
This happens more on smaller wheels while riding more technical terrain. You can hit some brakes with the inside of your leg forcing the pad into contact with the rim. This is generally only an issue with V-brakes and hydraulics do not have this problem.

Wheel damage has greater consequences: If you damage your rim and you are using rim brakes You might start to experience brake rub or your braking may become inconsistent depending on the nature of the damage.

Wear of braking surface: Using a rim brake will slowly wear away your rim sidewall thinning and weakening it until it needs to be replaced. this effect will be increased in wet and muddy conditions. That being said I have never heard of anyone wearing out the rim sidewalls on a unicycle.

Rim aesthetics: Half worn off paint on a rim sidewall is ugly and some people don't like the machined/polished sidewall look.



I am sure there are more valid disadvantages of having a brake on a unicycle. These were just the ones that popped into my mind at the moment.

[munimutant]

Originally Posted by Rowan

Off topic!

Oh great macho one with the legs of a god and skull of iron who we can only strive to become in our mere dreams of greatness, who meets all challenges to actually prove himself with weak lame excuses --- you brought it up. And sorry, not taking the bait on all the insults. Namaste my friend.

[munimutant]

Well crap I tried to edit my last post but couldn't. It was way too harsh. For all I know Rowan could be like the great muhammad ali, and can actually back up all the talk. Next time I'll think before I submit.

[bungeejoe]

Originally Posted by steveyo

Apparently, helmets are for those of us with weak skulls.

I think we may need to add seatbelts for additional safety when brakes are available. I keep thinking they may add to my ability to stay on the uni. Do you all think this will make my wife feel I'm being safer like my wearing a helmet does?

[steveyo]

Originally Posted by bungeejoe

I think we may need to add seatbelts for additional safety when brakes are available. I keep thinking they may add to my ability to stay on the uni. Do you all think this will make my wife feel I'm being safer like my wearing a helmet does?

Airbags, too! Wait - OFF TOPIC!!"

[bungeejoe]

Originally Posted by steveyo

Airbags, too! Wait - OFF TOPIC!!"

Not off topic if only armed during braking.

Maybe a big plastic bubble …

or

bubble wrap …

or

A helmet?

[Rowan]

Originally Posted by Rowan

Brakes are unnecessary on most unicycles as they will only slow you down. Might be good for steep MU or geared 36"s .

Originally Posted by saskatchewanian

Bales must be cheep right now based on how many straw men I see standing around.


This does seem like a good place to discuss the negatives of having a brake and there are some real negatives. I don't think "they slow you down" really counts.

By misquoting me, by taking my words out of context you have created your own straw man post. That wasn't even a negative thing about brakes, it is actually a positive thing that most unicycles do not need brakes. I still stand by my comment and I haven't heard any arguments yet that says most unicycles need brakes. So we agree that isn't negative. Geared unicycles are not the most common type.

Originally Posted by saskatchewanian

Adds complexity: I love the simplicity of a unicycle and this distracts from that a bit. It is also one more thing to potentially break on a unicycle, especially with hydraulic lines.
...
I am sure there are more valid disadvantages of having a brake on a unicycle. These were just the ones that popped into my mind at the moment.

Good on topic post!
The main reasons that put me off brakes are:
Cost & laziness: Unicycle.co.nz sells brakes for $200-$400 plus accessories. As a Unicycle teacher always in need of more unicycles it would be selfish of me to buy brakes for a functioning unicycle. I know you can drill your frame and put your own V-brake on, or pick up a second hand hydraulic brake pretty cheap ($30 Ben says), but then that seems like effort and it is not something I have gotten around to since it isn't very important to me.

Qu-ax has introduced a unicycle with a drag brake- the Marathon 36". It is about time Unicycle.com had some more variety in brakes I reckon- disk brakes would be good as an option that you don't have to make yourself.

[danger_uni]

Hey,

Since riding is ultimately a game we've made up just to have some fun, I guess we can't really argue seriously about whether unis should have brakes. But since I'm pretty firmly on the side of wanting to use them and have used a brake for 10 years, here's a cut/paste extract from the article I wrote on braking techniques, that outlines some of their advantages based on my experience:

Equipping a unicycle with a brake is not essential, and in the past most road and MUni riders did not use a brake. That is changing. More and more riders are learning that adding a brake and learning how to use it properly can add an entirely new and fun dimension to their riding.

Using a brake goes far beyond simply using it as a drag. It can help with all kinds of situations if you approach using a brake not simply as a way to slow down, but as an actual technique to replace most of the braking you would have done with your feet. The main purpose of foot braking becomes maintaining balance, not slowing down.

The most obvious advantage of a brake is that it reduces leg fatigue and stress on your knees and Achilles tendon. On roads, adding a brake to a big wheel makes using short cranks much safer as you get instant stopping power the next time you get cut off in traffic. Although it's counterintuitive, on descents you can actually spin more quickly while braking, because you eliminate the need to apply braking pressure on the back crank. It’s also less intimidating to spin quickly when you know you can slow down any time you like. Using a geared hub makes this even more critical.

Offroad, using a brake improves traction on slippery terrain because you brake evenly instead of just when your cranks move through the power position. It also helps you stay in balance during descents because you can focus more on balance without worrying about slowing down. That can translate into rolling down sections where you might otherwise have hopped. In areas with extremely high traction, such as grippy bedrock, you can relax down steep slopes where it would be almost impossible to brake adequately using only your legs. It also helps you slow down quickly in situations such as dropping onto a steep landing or slowing down for a corner or obstacle, and reduces wheel wobble when riding downhill on logs or beams. Off big drops onto sloping terrain, applying the brake about a quarter pedal turn after the initial impact can smooth out the impact force of rolling out of a drop. Using a brake also reduces finger bruising and the likelihood of breaking your saddle because you don’t have to pull up so hard.

The advantages of a brake are not limited to big descents. Many rolling cross-country trails have numerous small bumps that you roll or hop down, and these bumps take energy as you stabilize with back foot pressure. By feathering the brake off the drop edge and through the landing, you can smooth out the leg pressure required and cumulatively save a lot of energy.

Using a brake on your MUni also lets you get away with shorter cranks, giving you smoother riding on gentle terrain without compromise on technical descents. How short? That depends on your braking skill — how much can you replace the instant braking control you would otherwise get with your feet. Many riders find they can move down at least one crank size compared to what they prefer without a brake.

<snip>

Some other notes:

Regarding drag brakes: yes they have some strong proponents and certainly are less tiring for a long descent of a paved road. But they are also limiting in that you can't feather them - they are limited to use as a drag as opposed to being part of your technique repertoire.

Regarding disk brakes: On a bike disks do provide smooth and predictable braking, and very good braking power. However, making room for the disk reduces the flange-flange spacing, reducing wheel strength, and because we're limited in frame width we can't just make the hub wider to accommodate. It would be possible to make it somewhat wider, but it's more efficient for spinning to have a narrower pedalling stance (especially for road riding on a 36'er). In addition, the disk is more vulnerable to damage than rim brakes (e.g. if you were riding along a log and popped off the side), and it's in a position where a hot disk could potentially burn the rider's legs. A Magura hydraulic rim brake is very smooth compared to a V brake, and braking power is good especially on a 29'er and 36'er where the large rim has a lot of leverage. For these reasons, so far I haven't gone with a disk brake as I can't yet think of a way to do it where the advantages would outweigh the disadvantages unique to a unicycle. But never say never on that one.

I also have to say I like using a brake because -aside from functional advantages - it's a real technique that's cool to learn, with a learning curve like anything else. So even if you are fiercly anti brakes at the moment, I think it's worth keeping an open mind towards using one.

Kris

[Rowan]

Originally Posted by danger_uni

Regarding disk brakes: On a bike disks do provide smooth and predictable braking, and very good braking power. However, making room for the disk reduces the flange-flange spacing, reducing wheel strength, and because we're limited in frame width we can't just make the hub wider to accommodate. It would be possible to make it somewhat wider, but it's more efficient for spinning to have a narrower pedalling stance (especially for road riding on a 36'er).

The frame width is taken up by an extremely wide rim and tire in the case of 36" unicycles. When a practical road tire comes out in 36" there will be more room in the frame to do stuff. Keep in mind that super-wide hubs are being used on 36"s while normal width hubs are used on other ones. So there is already inefficient wide pedaling stance hubs just to add a bit of strength to the wheel. Hire some people from the computer industry to make the brakes micro!

Originally Posted by danger_uni

Since riding is ultimately a game we've made up just to have some fun, I guess we can't really argue seriously about whether unis should have brakes

I think we can seriously argue that some unis should not have brakes. There are trials unicycles with brake mounts- does anyone use them? Seems like a gimmick to put a brake on a unicycle that you can't get up to a decent speed- although I guess it could be used for brake assisted gliding/coasting. Brakes on a 12"? Overcome your fear of spinning I say...

[danger_uni]

Originally Posted by Rowan

I think we can seriously argue that some unis should not have brakes. There are trials unicycles with brake mounts- does anyone use them?

Yes - good point. Personally I also don't see a need for brakes on a 19" or 20" uni (or less).

Kris

[muniing sam]

Thanks for posting that article Kris!

[GizmoDuck]

Originally Posted by danger_uni

Regarding disk brakes: On a bike disks do provide smooth and predictable braking, and very good braking power. However, making room for the disk reduces the flange-flange spacing, reducing wheel strength, and because we're limited in frame width we can't just make the hub wider to accommodate.

Kris

Hi Kris,

I almost never use a brake, but just have a comment regarding disc brakes. There is no need to mount it on the hub on a unicycle, because there is no freewheel. Have you thought about the possibility of mounting it on the crank (for instance can a bicycle crank spider bolt onto a disc brake so it's on the outside of the fork legs instead of the inside? You would need some ankle guards so it doesn't burn your legs.