Praying man lets daughter die

[Mikefule]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8180116.stm

A man in Wisconsin has been convicted for negligently allowing his 11 year old daughter to die. She needed medical help, but instead he and his friends/family prayed for her. She died, and the Court have convicted him.

He is entitled to his religious beliefs, of course.

However, by his actions he has forced the consequences of his religious beliefs onto someone too young to have made an informed decision to share those beliefs.

It reminds me of the old joke: a man is trapped in a flood and someone turns up in a rowing boat to offer help. "No thank you, I'm praying to the Good Lord and He will save me."

Then along comes the lifeboat, and he sends them away saying, "No thank you, I'm praying to the Good Lord and He will save me."

Then, as he is standing on tiptoe with his face just above the water, a rescue helicopter comes along, but he waves it away, saying "No thank you, I'm praying to the Good Lord and He will save me."

Then he drowns.

And at the gates of Heaven he meets Jesus and says, "Why did you forsake me when I demonstrated my faith by praying for assistance?"

And Jesus replies, "I can't understand what went wrong. I ordered a rowing boat, a lifeboat and a helicopter."

The ancient Greeks had a similar legend involving a man whose wagon was stuck in the mud, and he prayed to Zeus for assistance, but waved away the various strong men who offered help.

[1-wheeled-grape]

Sorry but that is just stupid, if she couldn't walk, talk eat or drink then its pretty obvious that she needs to go to hospital.

[JJuggle]

Originally Posted by Mikefule

And Jesus replies, "I can't understand what went wrong. I ordered a rowing boat, a lifeboat and a helicopter."

As a treated diabetic who went through a week of incredible insatiable thirst, fatigue, achiness, rapid frightening weight-loss, and pissing myself pre-diagnosis, I can well imagine her final days and hours. Not pleasant. I'm glad they convicted him.

And just for the record, as I've heard that joke told the punch line reads, "And Jesus replies, 'I sent you a fucking row boat, lifeboat, and a goddamn helicopter. What more did you want from me, asshole?'"

[Mikefule]

Originally Posted by JJuggle

And just for the record, as I've heard that joke told the punch line reads, "And Jesus replies, 'I..."

Ah, but I was writing it for a wider audience including children, sensitive young ladies, and nuns.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowdlerise

[dudewithasock]

I've heard of cases like this before, this is just ridiculous....gah, PEOPLE.

[kington99]

Mike, I don't believe nuns are active on the forum, I can see them hitching up thier long dresses to ride maybe once, but I can't see them making it a habit.


anyway, another triumph of christianity over common sense. Does pose interesting questions about other situations where someone might do what they truely believe is best, but actually be wrong. Giving unrequired CPR and thus causing more harm might be an example.

Oh and of course we should realise that this has been done by god to make us recognise the good things in our life, just like all the other suffering in the world....

[Mikefule]

Originally Posted by kington99

Does pose interesting questions about other situations where someone might do what they truely believe is best, but actually be wrong. Giving unrequired CPR and thus causing more harm might be an example.

That is a genuinely interesting comparison.

At first sight it is "obviously different".

But at second sight, the difference is not easy to explain.

[JJuggle]

Originally Posted by Mikefule

That is a genuinely interesting comparison.

At first sight it is "obviously different".

But at second sight, the difference is not easy to explain.

I think there is an obvious difference between making a mistaken but well intentioned medical decision in a situation where immediate action is required and watching your daughter over a period of a number of days slowly waste away, slip into a coma, and stop breathing.

I would imagine that someone who, upon seeing a man clutch his chest in obvious cardiac distress pushes the man down and gives him unnecessary CPR would face legal repercussions whereas someone witnessing the same scene who immediately knelt down and began to pray might not. Particularly if both people first called 911. I wonder who between them would be the more likely to call 911 though.

[BillyTheMountain]

It's awful and wrong that anyone should die from ignorance. Children especially need to be protected.

It's also newsworthy, in that it might decrease the likelihood of more needless deaths.

Unfortunately, people willfully enlist in quack "scientific" cures, so they die. This rarely gets attention, and happens far too often.
http://www.healthwatcher.net/Quacker...eck/index.html

People still leave the USA for quack treatments in Mexico, or decide against their doctors advice and use herbal and other treatments for cancer.

[BillyTheMountain]

Originally Posted by JJuggle

I wonder who between them would be the more likely to call 911 though.

The one who was trained and certified.

We're trained to do that first.

[JJuggle]

Originally Posted by BillyTheMountain

It's awful and wrong that anyone should die from ignorance. Children especially need to be protected.

It's also newsworthy, in that it might decrease the likelihood of more needless deaths.

Unfortunately, people willfully enlist in quack "scientific" cures, so they die. This rarely gets attention, and happens far too often.
http://www.healthwatcher.net/Quacker...eck/index.html

People still leave the USA for quack treatments in Mexico, or decide against their doctors advice and use herbal and other treatments for cancer.

It is tragic and criminal that a child should die from a lack of medical care.

It is tragic but not necessarily criminal that adults choose to believe medical quacks and undergo medical treatments that are not beneficial and sometimes harmful.

But your comparison strikes me as being the equivalent of between a parent who leaves a loaded gun lying around on a coffee table with the safety off and whose 4 year old daughter finds it and shoots herself and a couple of buddies who go out hunting, fail to take the proper safety precautions and one of them ends up shot and dead. The former is prosecutable criminal behavior while the second is an unfortunate, albeit avoidable, accident caused by adults who knowingly put themselves in a potentially dangerous situation.

[carrieliney]

Mike, I don't believe nuns are active on the forum, I can see them hitching up thier long dresses to ride maybe once, but I can't see them making it a habit.

I knew a nun who skateboarded, and some of her fellow nuns did as well. So it's possible nuns could make a habit of riding in their habits (hurhur).

And back on topic: It is really unfortunate that not only the father, but his friends and family all seemed to think praying was the only appropriate response. One crazy, badly informed person is somewhat understandable, but a community of people who were willing to watch a child die and not call in a doctor? That's just terrifying.

[johnfoss]

Originally Posted by BillyTheMountain

The one who was trained and certified.

We're trained to do that first.

I was recently CPR certified, as part of the orientation at my new place of work. I'm certified, but I don't feel trained. The class was about 90 minutes, with a minimum of hands-on activity.

Billy is right about the phone call. Also, you don't do CPR if the victim is breathing. In most cases you shouldn't be pumping on their chest unless they are in obvious distress. It could happen though, especially if your certification is from a 90-minute class many years earlier.

Praying is fine. But doe not God help those who help themselves? Or did Darwin slip that one in there? In any case, like Raphael, I'm glad the state is taking action in that case.

[uni57]

Regarding the example of performing unnecessary CPR...

I have a friend who is an EMT. We discussed this issue several years ago. He said something to the effect that our liability is tempered by our level of training (or lack thereof). We used the example of removing an injured crash victim from his automobile, possibly causing paralysis through spinal cord damage, should that person happen to have suffered a broken back.

A person with no medical training whatsoever might easily make the mistake of moving the injured person. It would generally be recognized that he acted within his skill level and with the best of intentions. (We didn't discuss what would happen if someone tried to give CPR without any CPR training!)

A person recently certified for CPR would possibly be held more liable were he to give CPR unnecessarily, although that person is still a lay person.

A paramedic or a doctor had better not make either of those mistakes -- he should know better. He would most likely be successfully sued.

[GILD]

Originally Posted by johnfoss

I was recently CPR certified, as part of the orientation at my new place of work. I'm certified, but I don't feel trained.

I'm reminded of the joke of a recently certified person coming upon an accident scene and forcefully taking control of the scene. Telling all and sundry that he's trained and setting about helping the injured.
One man in particular wants to assist him, but our recently certified hero won't have any of it.
Eventually the wanna-helper backs off, asks the hero if he's fully certified?
Yes! is the snapped response.
Very well then, when you get to the part where you have to call the doctor, I'll be right here.