Future of Geared Hubs?

[harper]

Originally Posted by semach.the.monkey

I'll be interested in your thoughts or comments.

STM

The production design I made would do this. It would be nice to leave the ring gear in the hub when switching but all of the guts are easy to remove.

There was an engineering student on the forum who some time ago proposed a three speed shiftable hub with a design that was not completely irrational. It was to be cable shifted.

[johnfoss]

Originally Posted by MuniSano

...if there were some way, either with interchangable parts or something to make these KH/Schlumpf hubs so that they'd be available as they are now for unicycles but also in a free wheel form then perhaps there could be a market in the bicycling realm?

I think that may be what Florian does for a living. Before he made unicycle hubs he was making 2-speed bottom brackets for bikes. Search around the Web to read more about them. But those are a separate product (you don't pedal the wheel axles on a bike) so there's less crossover than you think.

Originally Posted by Tak

of the people that would purchase a Kris Holm unicycle, how many would be interested in an affordable (e.g. less than or equal to the price of the unicycle itself) geared hub (or equivalent gearing system)?
I'm thinking that number has to be close to 100%.

I can't agree with that. Most people still consider $500 to be very steep for a unicycle. I can't see close to 100% of that market wanting to buy a $1000 unicycle with a geared hub. The vast majority of the unicycle market is still interested in the basics, and it remains a much smaller percentage of us that want to push the cutting edge. It will take time.

Originally Posted by viccitylifeguard

i can see is you would have to run a chain and chain ring as well as the shifter up to a handle bar like the t-7 but i think do with the right enginering and patients to set it up it would work great

Other than the fact that you'd need a chain drive, a way to get the shifting control away from the axle to a switch, oh, and the part about how it's a freewheeling hub, no problem. There's a reason why the Schlumpf hub was built from the ground up for unicycles.

Originally Posted by tholub

It may even be the case that the original Schlumpf was better than the KH/Schlumpf in terms of durability. I wouldn't hold my breath, in any case.

Granted you're closer to a lot of Schlumpf hubs than I am, but I don't think Gizmoduck would agree with you on the new vs. old versions. Yes I have my concerns on the issues with bearing holder tightness and all that, but the KH versions have many improvements over the originals. Kinks? Obviously but I think the new ones are much more strong versatile. Reliability clearly isn't perfect though, and it's probably hard to develop the product without the income from lots of sales to pay for all the design and testing work.

[feel the light]

Originally Posted by semach.the.monkey

I have pondered over several of the problems with the current Schlumpf concept that you have already mentioned, and came up with a solution that I've put to Florian. He has politely declined on the basis that he doesn't want to make any changes to his products at the moment, and instead wants to concentrate on reducing the cost, so I don't think I'm out of line by mentioning it here. However, I'd be interested if you guys think it's a viable concept or not.

Essentially, I would propose that the 'gear box' part of the hub be separated from the 'flange' part. This would mean that you could own one geared hub, but have it easily fit in to several of your unicycles. It would mean it could be returned to base if there are issues with it, without requiring a wheel build. A lightweight singlespeed hub could be fitted to your wheel for certain rides. You could go on a long tour with a 36" wheel, but carry a 24" muni wheel easier for those bit of the tour. If a 3 speed hub, or a 1:1.75 ratio hub is developed in the future, it could be used without much work.

If the 'gearbox' and 'flange' could be produced for around the same price as the whole hub now, then I'm sure more people would commit to buying one as they could buy a second cheap flange for other wheels at probably less cost than a regular unicycle hub.

As you can see from the attached diagrams, I'm no engineer or draughtsman, but I think it might be clearer than describing it.

Attachment 34981

Attachment 34984

Attachment 34982

Attachment 34983

Attachment 34980

I'll be interested in your thoughts or comments.

STM

I really like the basic idea. It seems simple, and very appealing to a seriously advanced guni rider, who could own several gunis but only need 2 hubs to always be on the road with no fuss or waiting for repairs. Simplify repairs greatly etc. Well done.

My tiny suggestion is about cost. Maybe instead of splines, 2 or 3 key ways could be cut, perhaps with a few set screws, to achieve a zero slop fit for less cost than machining splines, but I am just guessing.

[tholub]

Originally Posted by johnfoss

Granted you're closer to a lot of Schlumpf hubs than I am, but I don't think Gizmoduck would agree with you on the new vs. old versions. Yes I have my concerns on the issues with bearing holder tightness and all that, but the KH versions have many improvements over the originals. Kinks? Obviously but I think the new ones are much more strong versatile. Reliability clearly isn't perfect though, and it's probably hard to develop the product without the income from lots of sales to pay for all the design and testing work.

The version that Ken crashed on was recalled; I actually don't know of a first generation, v2 hub that's failed. Scalisi still has his, Seth Golub's went through four or five people before he sold it. I may know multiple people who has personally experienced more hub failures than the first generation v2 hub.

While I think using the bearing cover as a lever arm is a clever solution, in practice I think it's caused more problems than it's solved. Really the tolerances are such that you pretty much have to use a KH frame anyway; it would have been better to use standard bearings, and put a hole in the KH frame for the lever arm.

In terms of versatility, the only real advantage I see of the new design is that it's ISIS instead of square taper.

[GizmoDuck]

Originally Posted by tholub

The version that Ken crashed on was recalled; I actually don't know of a first generation, v2 hub that's failed. Scalisi still has his, Seth Golub's went through four or five people before he sold it. I may know multiple people who has personally experienced more hub failures than the first generation v2 hub.

In terms of versatility, the only real advantage I see of the new design is that it's ISIS instead of square taper.

It's probably just a different reference. I call the refer to the recalled hub as the First Generation hub, the redesigned road Schlumpf hub as 2nd generation, and the KH/Schlumpf the 3rd Generation.

I think the main advantage of the 3rd Gen hub is that you don't need a torque lever, has less play, feels slightly more solid, and is slightly less fiddly in terms of taking off the shifter caps. Having said that, we've seen a few bearing failures (even if it was blamed on the frame), I've broken a button, and I think you can make the hub slip into freewheel whilst shifting if the bearings are clamped down too tight . I've heard of a couple of mechanical problems (I think Dustin or Sams hub?), but no further details.

[Probailer2]

Originally Posted by GizmoDuck

It's probably just a different reference. I call the refer to the recalled hub as the First Generation hub, the redesigned road Schlumpf hub as 2nd generation, and the KH/Schlumpf the 3rd Generation.

I think the main advantage of the 3rd Gen hub is that you don't need a torque lever, has less play, feels slightly more solid, and is slightly less fiddly in terms of taking off the shifter caps. Having said that, we've seen a few bearing failures (even if it was blamed on the frame), I've broken a button, and I think you can make the hub slip into freewheel whilst shifting if the bearings are clamped down too tight . I've heard of a couple of mechanical problems (I think Dustin or Sams hub?), but no further details.

I thought your hub slipped to once?

[Tak]

Originally Posted by johnfoss

I can't agree with that. Most people still consider $500 to be very steep for a unicycle. I can't see close to 100% of that market wanting to buy a $1000 unicycle with a geared hub. The vast majority of the unicycle market is still interested in the basics, and it remains a much smaller percentage of us that want to push the cutting edge. It will take time.

Perhaps my perception is skewed in that my main exposure to other unicyclists is this forum.
Given that, I had the impression that very few people purchase one KH unicycle - rather a KH24 and a KH29 and/or KH36 and/or and/or KHTrials and/or different KH24 with specialized setup for X situation... It's this group of people I could envision purchasing a gearing (or cvt) system instead of a secondary (tertiary, ...) unicycle.
But maybe this group is smaller than it appears through the lens of teh intarwebz.

[Peripatet]

Originally Posted by Tak

Given that, I had the impression that very few people purchase one KH unicycle

I only have one KH.

. . .but I do want more.

I think a better comparison would be how many people have multiple Schlumpf's? Looking at the (ever-growing, incomplete) list in the other thread, most people willing to shell out the cash for one only have one. AND, look how short the list is, compared to the user list for this site.

[MuniSano]

For me I want a ONE SIZE FITS MOST unicycle that I can travel (i.e. fly ) with (not just local trips from home). For the most part the reason so many sized unicycles exist is because there is no gearing. For the most part the 20" wheel is pretty dedicated for freestyle, street and trials. But from 24" up to 36" (and larger) the decision on which size wheel to get depends on what you MOSTLY want to do with it. Now if you had ONE unicycle with gearing, in my mind you wouldn't have to own multiple unicycles. So assuming you wanted a fairly top of the line unicycle of each size, 24" up to 36" and you wanted them fully equipped with hydro. brakes, handle bars etc... then you will spend much more than if you equipped ONE unicycle with ONE KH/Schlumpf (or other future) hub. I know it's fun to own several unicycles, I own 6 myself. However I'd gladly trade away most of them for one unicycle that fit most of what I'd like to do. Think about the constantly recycled thread on this forum "What sized uni should I get?" They might learn on a 20" but then soon they'll want to do some MUni but also perhaps ride around town on the roads; perhaps commute etc... Well the current practice, really, is to get a dedicated uni for each activity (eventually when one can afford it). Wouldn't it be so much better to just get one geared uni? That way you have a whole lot more versatility. Say a 24 or 26er with a geared hub. You could muni, you could do some trials and you can get around town...

Our whole approach is like having several single speed bikes, one for trails (low gearing) one for road riding (high gearing) etc... I think the sole limiting factor now is cost. If a geared uni hub could be produced for 1/4 to 1/2 the current cost then the ONE uni approach would be more viable. Still if you think about it; even at today's hub cost it is still a whole lot cheaper than buying several quality, buff unicycles....

[tholub]

Originally Posted by MuniSano

Now if you had ONE unicycle with gearing, in my mind you wouldn't have to own multiple unicycles. So assuming you wanted a fairly top of the line unicycle of each size, 24" up to 36" and you wanted them fully equipped with hydro. brakes, handle bars etc... then you will spend much more than if you equipped ONE unicycle with ONE KH/Schlumpf (or other future) hub. I know it's fun to own several unicycles, I own 6 myself. However I'd gladly trade away most of them for one unicycle that fit most of what I'd like to do.

Speaking as someone who owns 9 unicycles, including a 29er/Schlumpf (TD Jr.), I think you'll find that a geared unicycle, at least at the current level of technology, does not replace most of my other unicycles. There is no way I'd take the Schlumpf on the fun MUni trails nearby; the 24" is way better for real MUni. I can't use the Schlumpf for basketball. I even prefer my ungeared 29er with 110s (Zippy) for a lot of riding; TD Jr. is set up with an off-road tire and 150mm cranks, and weighs probably four pounds more than Zippy. If I had an ungeared Coker, TD Jr. would probably replace that one. But that's just one unicycle.

You could try a 24" Schlumpf like Corbin and Louise have. The problem is, it's still not as good as a real MUni for MUni, and it's not nearly as good as an ungeared Coker for distance riding. If you put a real MUni tire on it, it will suck even more for distance riding, and if you put a tire that's reasonable on the road, it will suck even more for MUni. Plus, part of the appeal of the Coker (insofar as I understand it) is that you can relax and enjoy the ride; on a geared uni, you have to remain focused at all times.

Or, you could get a 36" Schlumpf, which would only replace your ungeared 36".

A stock KH 29er with Schlumpf hub costs just under $2,000. For that much, you could get a KH 24" MUni ($621), a KH 29er ($685), a Coker Big One ($505), and throw in a freestyle uni as well. If you went with Nimbus instead of KH for the first two, you could add in an ultimate wheel, BC, and giraffe. So with the KH/Schlumpf, you're spending enough money for a full stable of unicycles, for one unicycle which really doesn't do things as well as any of the others (with the exception of going fast).

[MuniSano]

tholub: You make some very valid points. I'm right with you on having a pretty full arsenal. I've got a 20" Sun learner, KH20 trials, the KH24 GUni, 5' Sun giraffe, Coker BigOne and a semi put together (missing some pieces) 28" Yuni w/ 26" rim/tire set up. I really wouldn't want to trade all that for one uni. I totally agree with you that for the price of a GUni you can afford an arsenal; that really wasn't my point. I'm talking about being able to travel. It is not very practical to carry around a whole arsenal of unis everytime you go on vacation (at least not for me). So what do you do? You pick the one size fits most and that is what my arguement is and sort of my justification for my KH24 GUni. It's a good fit for what I want to do so that's why I did it. Sure it will "suck" at some things compared to others, but if that's all you have I imagine you'd get used to it. I think all of this would be moot if we could ever get a geared hub that is a lot cheaper

[semach.the.monkey]

+1 to what tholub says. I've got 9 unicycles in my stable*, including the dream geared 29er with handles and brakes. It really is a fantastic bit of kit, and for touring or commuting I really wouldn't want anything else.

Tomorrow though, I'm going for a muni ride on my fixed 24. I wish it had a geared hub, as I'm sure there are lots of bits that would benefit from that, but I can't afford a second one.

I also ride my Blizzard 24 a lot because with the slick tyre it's great for nipping about, but small enough to go in the boot [trunk] of anyones car. Again, I wish that was geared, but finances dictate otherwise.

I've not ridden a 36 for a couple of years now, but I really fancy the idea of an ultimate speed machine. Would I sacrifice my 29 so I can lace the hub in to a bigger wheel? No way.

Geared hub prices will have to come down one hell of a lot before I get the other three I would like. Probably much to far to be realistic. That's what inspired the splined flange sleeve idea earlier in this thread. But I wouldn't dream of gearing my freestyle or giraffe or hockey unicycles.

One size fits most is a nice idea, but really, it'll be more a case of 'one size isn't quite good enough at any of them' unless your very narrow in your choice of riding.

STM





* I've never worked out why a collection of unicycles is called a stable. Stable is one thing they inherently aren't!

[MuniSano]

Originally Posted by semach.the.monkey

One size fits most is a nice idea, but really, it'll be more a case of 'one size isn't quite good enough at any of them' unless your very narrow in your choice of riding.

STM

* I've never worked out why a collection of unicycles is called a stable. Stable is one thing they inherently aren't!

I don't know, perhaps it's a different mindset I have. For me the "one size isn't quite good enough at any of them" translates to "it's okay for a lot of things." This situation is very analogous to my off-road fixed gear bicycling days. You can never have the perfect gearing so you aim for the middle and hope to have a setup that works "most" of the time. So you choose a gear set and just go for it and not worry about it. "Ride what ya brung!" is a common phrase from that camp. Maybe it's too spinny in some places (so my legs get tired, so what?), maybe it's too much gear in others (so I'll have to walk, so what?), but it's probably good enough all around. That is the "sweet spot" I'm aiming for since I'm of like mind. So for my unicycling approach is similar minded. I've geared out my KH24 and, for me, that will be good enough for "most" of what I want to do when I'm traveling away from home. I know it works great for me because I used to do trials on my KH24 before I ever got a 20", and I've ridden some fairly long distances on single track (50 miles) on the KH24 before I ever got a 36er w/o any issues... It's just a different approach, a different mindset; it really doesn't bother me that I don't have the best tool for the job at all times. Obviously one can do trials much easier on a 20" or ride long distance XC on a 29er (or perhaps 36er) but that isn't my point. I'm saying sometimes I have to or choose to go with one uni.

I too love the irony of a group of unicycles being called a stable!

[tholub]

Originally Posted by MuniSano

I'm talking about being able to travel. It is not very practical to carry around a whole arsenal of unis everytime you go on vacation (at least not for me). So what do you do? You pick the one size fits most and that is what my arguement is and sort of my justification for my KH24 GUni. It's a good fit for what I want to do so that's why I did it.

That's why Corbin and Louise went with 24" GUnis (two months in Africa), and part of what I do with TD Jr. I'm taking a train trip to Portland later this year, and TD "don't call me Junior" (he's actually a little ornery) will be easy to transport on the train, and available for road and off-road rides once I get there. Still, that purchase made a lot more sense as my ninth unicycle than it would have made as my second.

[MuniSano]

Originally Posted by tholub

Still, that purchase made a lot more sense as my ninth unicycle than it would have made as my second.

Agreed. You have to be in this sport long enough to learn the best fit for you. I wouldn't dream of dropping $2000 into a GUni as my first or 2nd unicycle!