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Old 2008-07-14, 01:49 AM   #1
BillyTheMountain
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Spain's Catholic Bishops support the torture of Great Apes

Do you side with the Catholics, or against them?

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/13/we...in&oref=slogin

The vote of the environment committee of the Spanish Parliament last month to grant limited rights to our closest biological relatives, the great apes — chimpanzees, bonobos, gorillas and orangutans would bind Spain to the principles of the Great Ape Project. The Great Ape Project points to apes’ human qualities, including the ability to feel fear and happiness, create tools, use languages, remember the past and plan the future. If the bill passes — the news agency Reuters predicts it will — it would become illegal in Spain to kill apes except in self-defense. Torture, including in medical experiments, and arbitrary imprisonment, including for circuses or films, would be forbidden.

The 300 apes in Spanish zoos would not be freed, but better conditions would be mandated. [BillyTheMountain: Free the Apes!!! As long as one Great Ape is in captivity, we will never be free].

They demanded only rights that he felt all humans were usually offered, such as freedom from torture — rather than, say, rights to education or medical care.

Spain does not envision endowing apes with all rights: to drive, to bear arms and so on. Rather, their status would be akin to that of children.

Ingrid Newkirk, a founder of People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, considers Spain’s vote “a great start at breaking down the species barriers, under which humans are regarded as godlike and the rest of the animal kingdom, whether chimpanzees or clams, are treated like dirt.”

Spain’s Catholic bishops attacked the vote as undermining a divine will that placed humans above animals. One said such thinking led to abortion, euthanasia and ethnic cleansing.

“A gorilla is still meat,” said my guide, a former gorilla hunter himself. “It has no soul.”

So he agrees with Spain’s bishops. But it was an interesting observation for a West African to make. He looked much like the guy on the famous engraving adopted as a coat of arms by British abolitionists: a slave in shackles, kneeling to either beg or pray. Below it the motto: Am I Not a Man, and a Brother?

Whether or not Africans had souls — whether they were human in God’s eyes, capable of salvation — underlay much of the colonial debate about slavery. They were granted human rights on a sliding scale: as slaves, they were property; in the United States Constitution a slave counted as only three-fifths of a person.
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Old 2008-07-14, 03:36 AM   #2
glen
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I think people shouldn't try to base public policy on their religons. That goes for PETA and the Catholics.
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Old 2008-07-14, 09:13 AM   #3
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Just how is PETA religious?
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Old 2008-07-14, 10:49 AM   #4
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I think is a good idea to treat animals well, with education and respect.
It is a progress for everybody and for the animals.

But here, is spain there are more problems, more importat problems and the politics only speak on TV, telling stupid things. I think they only want to get the power and then they tell what we want to listen.

Sorry about my english
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Old 2008-07-15, 02:52 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glen
I think people shouldn't try to base public policy on their religons. That goes for PETA and the Catholics.
should i assume this means you side against the catholics and with the gorillas?
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Old 2008-07-15, 03:29 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyTheMountain
should i assume this means you side against the catholics and with the gorillas?
gorillaz*

i side with the gorillaz lol..

I mean, i'm all for belief in god, and all that hip hoppin jesus'ness, but if its cruelty to one of gods creatures, then its not truly religious, its not in my belief, and interpritation of relgion, and god.
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Old 2009-06-05, 04:23 PM   #7
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I think is a good idea to treat animals well, with education and respect.
How much education and respect do animals need?

My dog is pretty well trained, but not what you'd call "cultured."
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Old 2009-06-05, 06:24 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyTheMountain View Post
My dog is pretty well trained, but not what you'd call "cultured."
In northern Vietnam, they prefer their dogs to be seasoned.
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Old 2009-06-05, 07:09 PM   #9
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It would indeed be nice if we started treating animals in general a lot nicer. It's amazing what we are willing to do to them, and how hypocritical some of us are.

And it's especially sad that Christians that interpret the bible literally have complete faith that only human beings have souls, and think of animals simply as god's machines that he has given them. It's hard for me to even imagine making such an assumption, or believing it (that humans are the only real conscious and emotional beings) even if the entire rest of the human-race said otherwise, until they showed me significant proof. I might be mistaken on that, but it just astounds me that people think like that. There's a reasonable chance that we are, on average, the most intelligent beings on earth, but to say that we are the only one's with any intelligence, and then jump to the conclusion that that means that we are the only ones with emotion just seems so delusional and ludicrous to me. It would be nice to believe so, as it's always nice to think of yourself as one of the few things that matter in the world, but while ignorance is bliss, it's usually bliss at the expense of others. From all my life, there have been many pieces of evidence that pointed at emotion and consciousness from other animals. The ONLY suggestion I've seen that animals do not share consciousness and emotion similar to us is from the Bible. It doesn't make sense, and people should not take it for granted.

That was a bit of a rant, but whatever, sorry.
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Old 2009-06-05, 09:37 PM   #10
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i dont remember posting in this thread.
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