RTL: Ranking for non-geared teams

[mscalisi]

Since I haven't really done any head to head comparisons, I don't really have any way of quantifying the difference in speed between my riding geared and ungeared.

It's also hard for me to say that I know a 36er is faster than a 29er. Between the two of us, Tom was faster on his 29er, but overall he is a stronger rider than me anyway.

It makes sense that the 44-inch gear should be easier to push uphill and that the 56-inch gear should go faster downhill. It's also evident that it's easier to control a 44" gear on a steepish decline than the 56". A brake should eliminate that difference, but I have yet to find a brake solution that I'm comfortable using geared up. (I fit a caliper brake that seemed fine when 1:1, but super sketchy in high-gear)

One thing I like about my current setup is that with 127mm cranks, I have two useful gear ratios. A 29er with 127mm cranks isn't often useful in 1:1, except for maybe in the dirt. Of course you could always drop down to 114mm cranks, which Tom was considering doing. He probably won't now though since he's going to convert his ride into a ride-to-the-trail and then ride-the-trail cycle.

If I could go back in time and make my decision again, I'd be very tempted to go the 29er route, especially when you factor in weight and portability.

Originally Posted by GizmoDuck

Forgot to ask, Mike, and those of you on 36" Sclumpfs....how much faster are you on that compared to the fixed 36"? Is it much faster than the 29" Sclumpf?

I've just dusted off the chequebook and emailed Florian to go on the waiting list

[GizmoDuck]

Originally Posted by mscalisi

Since I haven't really done any head to head comparisons, I don't really have any way of quantifying the difference in speed between my riding geared and ungeared.

It's also hard for me to say that I know a 36er is faster than a 29er. Between the two of us, Tom was faster on his 29er, but overall he is a stronger rider than me anyway.

It makes sense that the 44-inch gear should be easier to push uphill and that the 56-inch gear should go faster downhill. It's also evident that it's easier to control a 44" gear on a steepish decline than the 56". A brake should eliminate that difference, but I have yet to find a brake solution that I'm comfortable using geared up. (I fit a caliper brake that seemed fine when 1:1, but super sketchy in high-gear)

One thing I like about my current setup is that with 127mm cranks, I have two useful gear ratios. A 29er with 127mm cranks isn't often useful in 1:1, except for maybe in the dirt. Of course you could always drop down to 114mm cranks, which Tom was considering doing. He probably won't now though since he's going to convert his ride into a ride-to-the-trail and then ride-the-trail cycle.

If I could go back in time and make my decision again, I'd be very tempted to go the 29er route, especially when you factor in weight and portability.

Thanks Mike, that's helpful. I did do a timed run a couple of years ago on my 29" Sclumpf around the WR course I used for the 24hr. It was about 5-6 secs faster per lap than my 36" Coker/110s, and about 4-5 secs faster per lap than my 36" Coker/102's.

I haven't used it since Laos though, so I guess it's time to dust it off. Looks like it's had a good testing period since the new design came out. It's not a good idea to be one of the first people in the world to try new things

[mscalisi]

A couple more things on the geared 29er vs. geared 36er while I'm fleshing out my opinions on the two:

Probably the main reason I chose a 36er over a 29er is that it still feels more 36er-y. This is to say, it's a more comfortable ride. It's less nimble, but more forgiving.

Also, I feel that it's easier to land on your feet when you UPD. Since you're a little higher up, you have just a tiny bit of time more to get positioned to run out.

Originally Posted by GizmoDuck

I haven't used it since Laos though, so I guess it's time to dust it off. Looks like it's had a good testing period since the new design came out. It's not a good idea to be one of the first people in the world to try new things

Believe me, I think about that often when I'm cruising downhill at well over 20mph. No matter how good these hubs are, they will fail at some point.

[genbirch]

Originally Posted by GizmoDuck

how much faster are you on that compared to the fixed 36"?

I've just dusted off the chequebook and emailed Florian to go on the waiting list

Ken, for my RTL qualifying ride with 89 mm cranks, I pulled a max of 47:55 on a set 19 km loop. This lap was amongst 10 others - my personal bottleneck was rpm's though, and I doubt that I could have done it more than a minute faster. This was a 23.79 kph average. (I should verify the lap km-age - I think it's actually 19.5ish km)

My first try on the Schlumpf for that lap was about 45 minutes. This was within the first 50 km of riding this Schlumpf/Hunter 36" build. I was clumsy with it when I did this ride, and didn't then feel nearly as fast as I do now. Now I have 400+ km on it . I'll try it again within a couple weeks though it sounds like you've made your decision. You'll be fearsomely versatile!

[GizmoDuck]

Originally Posted by genbirch

Ken, for my RTL qualifying ride with 89 mm cranks, I pulled a max of 47:55 on a set 19 km loop. This lap was amongst 10 others - my personal bottleneck was rpm's though, and I doubt that I could have done it more than a minute faster. This was a 23.79 kph average. (I should verify the lap km-age - I think it's actually 19.5ish km)

My first try on the Schlumpf for that lap was about 45 minutes. This was within the first 50 km of riding this Schlumpf/Hunter 36" build. I was clumsy with it when I did this ride, and didn't then feel nearly as fast as I do now. Now I have 400+ km on it . I'll try it again within a couple weeks though it sounds like you've made your decision. You'll be fearsomely versatile!

That's good to know Dan. You were super fast at RTL.

I think I would definitely be faster, but how much remains to be seen. I'm more of a spinner than a gear masher, so not sure if I have what it takes to push it as fast as some of you power animals out there (eg Chuck).

[genbirch]

Originally Posted by mscalisi

Probably the main reason I chose a 36er over a 29er is that it still feels more 36er-y. This is to say, it's a more comfortable ride. It's less nimble, but more forgiving.

Ditto. I love the feel and vantage point of the 36. There was no way I was going to give that up for safety or convenience.

[corbin]

Originally Posted by GizmoDuck

Forgot to ask, Mike, and those of you on 36" Sclumpfs....how much faster are you on that compared to the fixed 36"? Is it much faster than the 29" Sclumpf?

I've just dusted off the chequebook and emailed Florian to go on the waiting list

Our time trial practice run i did ungeared:
12.8 miles, 0:51:11 time, 15.00 avg

A week later I did it again on my geared cycle:

Geared, via my cycle computer:
12.32 miles, 0:43:46 time, 16.9 avg

In general, the geared 36'er makes me 2mph faster.

corbin

[GizmoDuck]

Originally Posted by genbirch

Ditto. I love the feel and vantage point of the 36. There was no way I was going to give that up for safety or convenience.

In terms of safety, I think one reason I broke my leg on a 29" Schlumpf when the gear slipped was because as soon as it did, my leg got planted on the ground at 30km/hr. The legs are so much closer to the ground that you don't get much of a choice of where it goes.

You might land from higher up, but hopefully more gracefully on a 36" Sclumpf.

[corbin]

Originally Posted by GizmoDuck

In terms of safety, I think one reason I broke my leg on a 29" Schlumpf when the gear slipped was because as soon as it did, my leg got planted on the ground at 30km/hr. The legs are so much closer to the ground that you don't get much of a choice of where it goes.

You might land from higher up, but hopefully more gracefully on a 36" Sclumpf.

For what its worth, I have crashed at 19-20mph (30km +). I was just too sleepy riding to work one morning, and leaned a little too far forward and fell -- I took two huge/fast steps and hit the ground with my hands. Luckily, my gloves protected them. I bent my handlebar, but everything else was fine. I did get a tiny scrape on my hand and knee, but that was it. I was pretty lucky for sure!

corbin

[mscalisi]

The thing that's a little disturbing to me is that a freewheel mode is possible. If you hit the button and it engages a little, but not all the way, this can be activated. It's a little unusual since the hub really wants to be in one gear or another, but I've experienced it while shifting. Tom experienced it while hill climbing with a loose ISIS crank.

I think a UPD because of a free-wheeling incident is far more dangerous than a typical UPD.

In a typical UPD, you come off forward of the unicycle, and your body weight is somewhat ahead of your legs. Either you run out, or you fall forward.

With a freewheel UPD, you can come straight down. It's possible that you fall slightly backwards. My hypothesis about what happened to you is that your leg came down at a slightly awkward angle ahead of your body weight, and then had all the force of your body push into at 30kmh

Had you simply had a regular UPD, you would have fallen forward and gotten scraped up, but not forced your leg into an awkward position.

Frankly, I'm not sure that a 36er could have prevented it.

Originally Posted by GizmoDuck

In terms of safety, I think one reason I broke my leg on a 29" Schlumpf when the gear slipped was because as soon as it did, my leg got planted on the ground at 30km/hr. The legs are so much closer to the ground that you don't get much of a choice of where it goes.

You might land from higher up, but hopefully more gracefully on a 36" Sclumpf.

[David_Stone]

Originally Posted by mscalisi

The thing that's a little disturbing to me is that a freewheel mode is possible...

With a freewheel UPD, you can come straight down. It's possible that you fall slightly backwards.

I had a freewheel fall on the geared hub, first generation, a couple years ago, right before Ken's fall broke his leg. In my case, I fell completely flat backwards, landing like a snow angel. Luckily I had a fanny pack to protect my spine and a helmet; I always wear a helmet with a guni at ANY speed.

As for Ken's Q about speed: I reached 21 mph as a max speed on my Coker with 110s. Without a steepish hill, my cruising speed was no greater than about 16 mph for an extended period. With my 29" guni and 125s, I can reach 22.5 mph (35.6 kph) and was able to maintain 18 mph (just under 30 kph) at RTL under the right circs. So I'd say that the 29" guni added about 5-10% to my speeds without costing too much in work.

[GizmoDuck]

Originally Posted by mscalisi

With a freewheel UPD, you can come straight down. It's possible that you fall slightly backwards. My hypothesis about what happened to you is that your leg came down at a slightly awkward angle ahead of your body weight, and then had all the force of your body push into at 30kmh

Had you simply had a regular UPD, you would have fallen forward and gotten scraped up, but not forced your leg into an awkward position.

There was nothing awkward about the leg position. It was the perfect angle for snapping it in half. My body was not in front of my leg, it was behind it. This gives you a rough idea:

_____/O______

Try this- ride a bike really fast.

Now tilt to the side and plant your leg at about 45 degrees into the ground at 30km/hr.

[joemarshall]

I don't think the schlumpf 29er gives me a massive advantage in terms of speed compared to a coker. The high gear doesn't feel massively different - with 125s (as pretty much everyone was running) it's quite similar to 102s on a coker. For me, it's primarily a very convenient coker which can also be an okay muni, ie. a to the trails and ride the trails machine.

I think that now I'm used to it, and have a lightweight(ish) road tyre on it, it is more relaxing to ride for long distances though - you are just spinning a lot less weight around - approx 1500g weight at the rim vs. ~3000g at the rim on a coker.

It seems from RTL that the 36" schlumpf does give a noticeable speed advantage though, which I guess is unsurprising, as it is a so much higher gear and still has a usable low gear.

Although having said that, there are I think 2 teams in the top 10 who only had 29er schlumpfs? Maybe there is an advantage to the 29er schlumpf for faster riders than me.

Joe

[tholub]

During our training, we kept time on a number of specified runs for different people with different setups. We also did one particular hill (Tunnel Road) multiple times with different setups; this provided some data to analyze about the efficacy of different setups. The conclusions we came to were:

• The rider is more important than the unicycle.
• Everyone is fastest on the setup they're most comfortable with
• It's possible to go up hills (up to a certain grade) faster on a geared uni than a fixed 36er, at a cost of greater energy expenditure
• Geared unis are faster downhill and require less energy than a fixed 36er
• Did I mention, the rider is more important than the unicycle?

Tons of data in Google Docs spreadsheets:

Totally Doable training rides
Bay Area training rides

[Eroick]

Originally Posted by tholub

• The rider is more important than the unicycle.
• Everyone is fastest on the setup they're most comfortable with
• It's possible to go up hills (up to a certain grade) faster on a geared uni than a fixed 36er, at a cost of greater energy expenditure
• Geared unis are faster downhill and require less energy than a fixed 36er
• Did I mention, the rider is more important than the unicycle?

I've got to agree with all of those points. Yes, geared hubs give you a mechanical advantage, but they don't make your legs 1.5 times a big.

I found myself catching the only gunis that we were riding with on long, gentle uphills and downhills. They'd take off on the flats and most steep hills (up or down).

I hope that if RTL happens again, there will be separate categories for geared and fixed unicycles, since there is a significant mechanical advantage at a price that not everyone can afford.