RTL Poll: Which wheel will win the Crit?

[rolandisimo]

The Crit on day 3 is a ~ 0.5 mile loop, roughly square, ridden in 3 heats of 35 riders for ~15minutes each.

Which wheel will win?

-Ro

[tholub]

One thing that is absolutely clear is that the rider is more important than the unicycle, so it will depend what the best criterium riders are using. It also will depend on who crashes and who doesn't.

But personally, I think the geared 29er is the ideal cycle for the criterium; it accelerates and corners better than the geared 36ers, and criteriums are all about accelerating and cornering.

We just did our second criterium practice; in both cases the crit was won by a geared 29er. The first time, second place was a geared 36er (Foss), a second or two behind; I don't think he would have beaten me in a longer race. Today, second place was an ungeared 36/102 (Beau), who led the first three laps, was passed on the fourth but kept pace, and was pulling even on the home stretch when he lost it and crashed at over 20 MPH. (He's OK.) He might have won if he hadn't crashed, but ungeared wheels are just way harder to ride that fast, so I think it contributed to the crash.

[chuckaeronut]

Crit's why I'm bringing my ungeared 36er

I just need to get good on it again after riding geared for so long! I can hold my geared averages on an ungeared uni for a little while (~15 minutes) and am much more agile while ungeared... Personally, I think ungeared 36 will be best for me. It really depends on the rider, though; if someone riding geared up with shorter cranks has absolutely monstrous legs and is amazingly good at controlling the uni, then they might be faster on a geared up hub in a Coker. I know I'm not at that level yet (but sure would like to be!); I've only ridden a geared 29 for maybe 3 minutes, and it does seem faster than an ungeared 36, definitely, but it still doesn't seem as nimble around the corners. My vote is for an ungeared 36. I don't know which uni I'll end up riding, but it will definitely be 36"

[johnfoss]

From what I've seen, I have to agree with Tom on guessing geared 29". Especially if Tom's riding it. But wheels don't win races, riders do. Switch the riders and wheels and, assuming all are familiar with what they're riding, the same rider is still most likely to win.

Originally Posted by tholub

The first time, second place was a geared 36er (Foss), a second or two behind; I don't think he would have beaten me in a longer race.

Ahem. To be honest, I think I could have stayed with Tom for several more laps at that pace. I had worked my way past a few other riders to get behind Tom, and I think we were 1 and 2 for the entire last lap. I thought about trying to pass, but experience tells me it's better to be 2nd than to crash at 18 mph or so. If anything, I'll save that for the actual race!

As far as which type of cycle is best-suited to the Crit race, I agree that the geared 29" allows you to ride fast without winding out too much, while having the lighter weight and greater maneuverability of the smaller wheel.



I want one.

[ntappin]

I think it will entirely depend on the rider, but if the riders are accustomed to the geared 36ers I think they will definitely have a large advantage.

I think all of them have a pretty likely chance but the larger cranked 36ers will definitely be at a disadvantage.

Of course it really does all come down to the riders.

[phlegm]

I agree with most everyone else that has posted. I think it could be an ungeared 36 with short cranks or a geared 29, depending on the rider and the course. What is the reasoning of those who think otherwise?

I was in fifth on the final turn in yesterday's exercise, and I came in third behind Tom and Beau because I dropped/passed three ungeared 36ers on the final stretch by sprinting on my geared 29. I know I wouldn't have had that much bursty speed with an ungeared 36. Granted, I'm sure there will be racers at RTL that will be far enough in the lead that my sprinting won't catch them. But I think a stronger geared 29 rider could potentially draft the leading group and bust out a huge speed at the end.

[mscalisi]

The practice crit yesterday was pretty wild.

People were hitting 20mph on ungeared cokers (and Tom on his geared 29er).
Corbin was hitting 20mph UNGEARED WITH 125MM cranks!! (the rest of us on 102 or 110mm cranks).

This was on a FLAT land (although with a slight tailwind on the fastest leg).

edit: To reiterate what Tom said. It's really obvious the the strongest rider, not the best unicycle will win. Gearing can and does provide an advantage under certain conditions, but not enough to beat someone more than marginally stronger.

[GizmoDuck]

I just wonder how twisty the course will be.

The criterium to me is a one gear race. ie...geared schlumpfs aren't going to get a chance to change gears at all...you're going to lose far too much time with each gear change. I know there are riders who are very efficient at shifting, but I'm still skeptical of people being able to shift at 30km/hr without slowing down. I'd guesstimate you'd lose 5secs per shift.

So it's really a gearing question. If you think a big gear is going to win it, then vote 36" Schlumpf. If it's a small gear that will win it, then fixed 36".

I voted 36" with 114mm cranks. I reckon that will be good on the corners without sacrificing too much straight line speed. I haven't decided if I'll be using 110's. 102s or 114's yet. Will wait till I've seen the course.

[siafirede]

I will be using my geared 29 for the Crit and time trial. Actually, I need to see how rolling the terrain is for the time trial to decide if I will be using a 36er with 114s instead.

[chuckaeronut]

On a very serious, non-joking note, I'm doing the crit on my ungeared KH24 because the smaller wheel will be so much more maneuverable. Plus, the bigger tire will give me much better grip going through the corners at high speed. I will also be able to rolling-hop over people who crash! I'll be unstoppable! MUHAUAHAAAA!

Actually, I dont' want to throw dirt on anybody or rain on anybody's parade, but I think that the wheel under the (strongest?) rider most used to that wheel will win the crit. I think the fastest crit riders are going to be up and over 20mph, geared or not, 29 or 36. If you're going that fast, whether you're geared or not really only seems to influence sustainability, but this race is only 4.8 kilometers! It's going to be the wheel whose rider can take it in and out of turns at 19+mph and reaccelerate to 20 or 21 without much difficulty.

[chuckaeronut]

I'm torn between using my ungeared or geared uni for the crit, but I KNOW I'll be going geared 36 for the time trial. Hands down for straightline speed, my geared 36 takes the cake. The crit, I'm not so sure. I'll most likely be deciding when I get there and ride the course a few times on each.

[mscalisi]

I think it's pretty obvious what the correct equipment is.

In our two test criteriums, there were 3 riders that were highly competitive with each other. Beau Hoover, Tom Holub and John Foss.

All you have to do is use the equipment these riders used.
Tom used a Schlumpf 29er
Beau used an ungeared 36er
John used a Schlumpf 36er.

Personally, I used a Schlumpf 36er for the first crit and a fixed 36er for the second. It was harder to slow and accellerate on the Schlumpf, but I made up for it on the straights. I don't have a way of comparing directly, but I felt faster ungeared (that doesn't mean is WAS faster though)

If we were to run another test crit, I honestly can't tell you whom amongst these three would win, but I would expect it to be a photo finish.

FYI, the first sentence should have an /sarcasm after the period.

Chuck, I'm happy to hear about your equipment choice. It means I have a chance of beating you! (edit: this is in reference to your first post, not the second!)

Ken, I fully agree with you. The moment somebody shifts is the moment that the rest of the riders pass him.

Originally Posted by GizmoDuck

I just wonder how twisty the course will be.

The criterium to me is a one gear race. ie...geared schlumpfs aren't going to get a chance to change gears at all...you're going to lose far too much time with each gear change. I know there are riders who are very efficient at shifting, but I'm still skeptical of people being able to shift at 30km/hr without slowing down. I'd guesstimate you'd lose 5secs per shift.

So it's really a gearing question. If you think a big gear is going to win it, then vote 36" Schlumpf. If it's a small gear that will win it, then fixed 36".

I voted 36" with 114mm cranks. I reckon that will be good on the corners without sacrificing too much straight line speed. I haven't decided if I'll be using 110's. 102s or 114's yet. Will wait till I've seen the course.

[tholub]

Originally Posted by GizmoDuck

I just wonder how twisty the course will be.

The criterium to me is a one gear race. ie...geared schlumpfs aren't going to get a chance to change gears at all...you're going to lose far too much time with each gear change. I know there are riders who are very efficient at shifting, but I'm still skeptical of people being able to shift at 30km/hr without slowing down. I'd guesstimate you'd lose 5secs per shift.

So it's really a gearing question. If you think a big gear is going to win it, then vote 36" Schlumpf. If it's a small gear that will win it, then fixed 36".

I voted 36" with 114mm cranks. I reckon that will be good on the corners without sacrificing too much straight line speed. I haven't decided if I'll be using 110's. 102s or 114's yet. Will wait till I've seen the course.

No one will be shifting during the criterium. No one fast will be shifting during the time trial, either (total elevation delta 37m). The fastest riders in all of RTL will be the geared riders who don't shift more than a few times a day.

The ungeared unis did seem faster off the starting line, both times we ran the criterium. The geared unis had faster peak speeds and were able to close the gap. Leading off the line is probably not the way to win the criterium, although it is one way to avoid the first place where there will be big crashes (the first turn). (The second place there will be big crashes is at the finish as people race to the line--that's where Beau went down).

[GizmoDuck]

Originally Posted by tholub

The fastest riders in all of RTL will be the geared riders who don't shift more than a few times a day.

Or the ungeared riders who don't shift at all

[tholub]

And the winner is: Chuck on his geared 36, who had the pole position after winning the time trial. He got out ahead and simply blew away the field.