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Old 2007-12-20, 03:37 AM   #1
uni_jim
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trials class system

is there a class system for trials unicycling? I propose setting up a standard system for grading the difficulty of a line in a similar way that climbers grade routes and rapids are classed. i am thinking a class 1-10 system where class one would be the equivelant of riding along a 2 foot wide path with drops of 30cm or less working up to class ten with round skinnies and 100cm hops.
does anybody think this is a good idea? anyone want to help write this system?

thanks
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Old 2007-12-20, 03:39 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uni_jim
is there a class system for trials unicycling? I propose setting up a standard system for grading the difficulty of a line in a similar way that climbers grade routes and rapids are classed. i am thinking a class 1-10 system where class one would be the equivelant of riding along a 2 foot wide path with drops of 30cm or less working up to class ten with round skinnies and 100cm hops.
does anybody think this is a good idea? anyone want to help write this system?

thanks
uni_jim
I don't think this is a good idea because it is just based on hop height pretty much, nothing technical.
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Old 2007-12-20, 03:41 AM   #3
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that was only to give a general outline of the idea. the actual system would be about the overall difficulty. I have ridden lines that didn't get any higher than a foot, but were harder than anything i have ever tried.
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flatlanders are street riders with fear of height and ladders...
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Old 2007-12-20, 04:35 AM   #4
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I don't want to presume, but it sounds like you maybe haven't read the rules that already exist for Trials.

http://www.unicycling.org/iuf/rulebook/
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Old 2007-12-20, 05:01 AM   #5
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I think this is a great idea, though hard to set up.

If you go to ten and keep sub level rankings, like in climbing (a, b, c, d), eventually there will need to be 11, 12, 13, etc.
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Originally Posted by johnfoss
I don't want to presume, but it sounds like you maybe haven't read the rules that already exist for Trials.

http://www.unicycling.org/iuf/rulebook/
And trials is where?
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Old 2007-12-20, 05:09 AM   #6
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I really don't think you can quantify trials skill. It is hard enough to quantify freestyle or street skill, but at least those have easy to identify benchmarks of difficulty.

With trials, there are no definitive skills that quantify overall ability and can be easily compared and associated with overall skill level.

you can compare singular achievements, and basics, but trails is about putting skills to the test and learning on the go, not just accomplishing basic skills.

I think I am doing a poor job at trying to explain whats in my mind, so more simply:

You can't conclusively define riders trials skill, based on individual achievements or even the sum of those achievements.
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Old 2007-12-20, 06:58 AM   #7
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Trial levels... it sounds quite good. This is not rules for trials comps, but like the ten basic freestyle levels.

1. Newbie
- 10cm side hop
- Static gap 2ft
- Ride across a 4x8
- Jump up and down stairs without correctional hops.

2.Beginner
- 35cm side hop
- Static gap 3ft
- Clean a "wedge" line.
- Ride across a 2x4
- Crank-grab 50cm
- Jump across round smooth rocks no more that 1 ft high and 2.5ft apart

3. Intermediate
- 60cm side hop
- Static gap 4.5ft
- Ride across a 2x4 with an incline of 10 degrees
- Ride across a the skinny end of a 2x4
- 30cm side hop to 2x4 skinny and ride
- Jump across 4 consecutive "rungs" of a ladder, 6" diameter and 2ft apart.
- Pedal grab 80cm
- Jump up an incline of 30 degrees
- Still stand for 10 seconds
- Jump across rocks, that are still flat-ish, no more than 18" high and 3.5ft apart

4. Expert
- 85cm side hop
- Jump 70cm to 2x4 skinny and ride
- Static gap 6ft
- Ride across a rail 3" in diameter for 2 meters suspended 2ft high.
- Jump across 4 consecutive post, 4" in diameter and 2ft apart
- Jump across 4 consecutive "rungs" of a ladder, 6" diameter and 4ft apart
- Pedal-grab to rail and jump over and across
- Ride twisted skinnies 3" wide and 4ft high.
- Jump up an incline of 45 degrees
- Jump up a post 60cm high, 4" in diameter
- Pedal-grab up a post 80cm high and 4" in diameter
- Still stand for 20 seconds
- Jump 70cm, without a pre-hop, from an irregular surface, to an irregular surface

5.Pro
- 105cm side hop
- Static gap 7ft
- Gap from one rail road track to other and ride.
- Pedal grab up a rail 1.5" and ride it.
- Jump across two "rungs" of a ladder, 6" in diameter and 6ft apart
- Jump across 4 consecutive posts, 2" in diameter and 2ft apart
- Still stand for 40 seconds
- Jump 90cm, without a pre-hop, from an irregular surface to an irregular surface
- castrate all street riders who say that trials is just "leg strength"

6. Godly
- Have the name Ryan Atkins

Feel free to add or modify. This is just basic, so chime in if you think some parts aren't fair.
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Old 2007-12-20, 01:54 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danni
Trial levels... it sounds quite good. This is not rules for trials comps, but like the ten basic freestyle levels.

6. Godly
- Have the name Ryan Atkins
haha, but you forgot Tom Pec, Joe Hodges and Mark Fabian.

Peter M
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Old 2007-12-20, 04:47 PM   #9
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One of the big problems with having a level system in trials, like standard skills, is that the approach is so different. Standard skill levels are only really possible because the terrain is 100% predictable and is the same everywhere in the world (ie. flat).

Much closer to trials are the grading systems in climbing, where you grade the route difficulty, not the technique difficulty. With experience on different routes, climbers get a sense for what constitutes a certain grade and then they judge the difficulty of other routes based on how a certain grade feels to them. Climbing has a big advantage over trials in establishing such a grading system because routes are permanent features that get climbed enough times and described enough in guidebooks to establish a consensus grade.

In the earlier drafts of the unitrials rules, (prior to about 2003), course setters were supposed to rate the difficulty of obstacles and establish point ratings, where harder lines received more points. We did away with this because it was hard to do consistently around the world. Now every trials line in a competition is worth one point- much easier to administrate.

However, one outcome of that was a difficulty rating system called the U-System, which was inspired by the V-System for rating bouldering problems in climbing. You can see it here on page 16:
http://www.krisholm.com/freetrials/U..._May_11_07.pdf

The idea was to have an open-ended rating system with examples of different obstacles at each level. The idea is not to "accomplish" U1, or U5, etc. in the same way as standard skills, by doing all the example obstacles at a certain level. The point is that the rider uses the examples to get a personal sense for how hard a U3 level problem, say, feels to them. Then, when they are out riding something else (including obstacles you couldn't possibly describe or include in a skill level), they can rate it's difficulty based on their sense of the U system ratings.

This system sort of died because unlike climbing most trials lines are obscure and rarely done exactly the same way by many riders, and none to date are described in guidebooks.

But it would be a good way to communicate about trials difficulty in different places in the world, and to track the improvement of the sport over time. The advantage is that unlike competitions, where you can only look back and say that a certain person won, with a rating system you could look back and see the actual skills progression. For example in 2002 there were only maybe 2 or 3 riders in the world who could do U8 lines, whereas today there are dozens of riders who can do that.

Kris
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Old 2007-12-20, 06:07 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Probailer2
haha, but you forgot Tom Pec, Joe Hodges and Mark Fabian.

Peter M
If I remember correctly, is was Atkins you owned all you Europeans. Go Canada!
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Old 2007-12-20, 06:11 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danni
If I remember correctly, is was Atkins you owned all you Europeans. Go Canada!
yep, atkins all the way, but for a class system, i dont really see a need for it unless your in a competition and in that case they already have a system for that dont they?
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Old 2007-12-20, 06:16 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danger_uni
One of the big problems with having a level system in trials, like standard skills, is that the approach is so different. Standard skill levels are only really possible because the terrain is 100% predictable and is the same everywhere in the world (ie. flat).

Much closer to trials are the grading systems in climbing, where you grade the route difficulty, not the technique difficulty. With experience on different routes, climbers get a sense for what constitutes a certain grade and then they judge the difficulty of other routes based on how a certain grade feels to them. Climbing has a big advantage over trials in establishing such a grading system because routes are permanent features that get climbed enough times and described enough in guidebooks to establish a consensus grade.

In the earlier drafts of the unitrials rules, (prior to about 2003), course setters were supposed to rate the difficulty of obstacles and establish point ratings, where harder lines received more points. We did away with this because it was hard to do consistently around the world. Now every trials line in a competition is worth one point- much easier to administrate.

However, one outcome of that was a difficulty rating system called the U-System, which was inspired by the V-System for rating bouldering problems in climbing. You can see it here on page 16:
http://www.krisholm.com/freetrials/U..._May_11_07.pdf

The idea was to have an open-ended rating system with examples of different obstacles at each level. The idea is not to "accomplish" U1, or U5, etc. in the same way as standard skills, by doing all the example obstacles at a certain level. The point is that the rider uses the examples to get a personal sense for how hard a U3 level problem, say, feels to them. Then, when they are out riding something else (including obstacles you couldn't possibly describe or include in a skill level), they can rate it's difficulty based on their sense of the U system ratings.

This system sort of died because unlike climbing most trials lines are obscure and rarely done exactly the same way by many riders, and none to date are described in guidebooks.

But it would be a good way to communicate about trials difficulty in different places in the world, and to track the improvement of the sport over time. The advantage is that unlike competitions, where you can only look back and say that a certain person won, with a rating system you could look back and see the actual skills progression. For example in 2002 there were only maybe 2 or 3 riders in the world who could do U8 lines, whereas today there are dozens of riders who can do that.

Kris
I read your U system many times, and based it on my competition. All side hops do not exceed 36", while there are nuts doing 44". Perhaps you need a new U level?

While your rules do apply in trials comps, they aren't like the 10 freestyle levels. A 36" hop is fairly common nowadays, but few can do skinnies really well. I think that it's time to change things in the U system, or make a new 5 or 10 level system
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Old 2007-12-20, 06:21 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danni
A 36" hop is fairly common nowadays, but few can do skinnies really well. I think that it's time to change things in the U system, or make a new 5 or 10 level system
i agree, i can hit 32" almost every single time but ican only still stand for about 8 seconds...and my skinnys suck...i think that trials now since we have all these people nailing these huge hops should start getting more techincal and so should the rules...
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Old 2007-12-20, 06:33 PM   #14
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I don't think there should be any rules.

For competitions, I like the points system. But I say let us trials riders be more concerned with self accomplishment than ranking.
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Old 2007-12-20, 06:38 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spoonthumb
i agree, i can hit 32" almost every single time but ican only still stand for about 8 seconds...and my skinnys suck...i think that trials now since we have all these people nailing these huge hops should start getting more techincal and so should the rules...
The U rules are out of date. Like KH said, the level has grown substantially in the last few years. Maybe do some minor changes here and there and add a level?
It doesn't effect me whatsoever since I'm not very good yet, but it's nice to get involved. It's also nice to know where you are in the trials scale, what areas need improving etc.
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