Ron Paul - Will Americans Support Him?

[sockmonster]

Originally Posted by wobbling bear

Hey what about ideas of future TV ads in a "Paulista" future?

"Now available on Barter.com, special 'signature' edition Ron Paul globes and world maps! Featuring the United States and NOTHING ELSE. Great for schools which no longer receive public funding.

Hey, it's that or nothing, right? BARTER.COM!"

[maestro8]

Originally Posted by James_Potter

I actually really like Ron Paul a lot, even though he's a Republican

Don't compare him to the "Republicans" in office today. To me Ron Paul seems more like a true less-gov't more-individual-freedom Republican than any of the kooks in Washington.

What happened to the party platform?

[Gilby]

Originally Posted by sockmonster

Yeah, there are horror stories of people dying while waiting for treatment. That's no different than the US. In fact, it's more prevalent in the United States than in Europe.

What's your source of this "fact"?

Originally Posted by sockmonster

There is no reason the quality of healthcare has to diminish.

Cool, I can't wait for my FEMA run healthcare.

Originally Posted by sockmonster

If you remove the insurance companies from the equation, and their truly horrifying profit margins,

3.9% profit margin. Horrible! How could they.

The high cost today is from the patient not being the payer (who therefore does not care about the cost).

Originally Posted by sockmonster

you can provide quality healthcare at no cost while still generously compensating healthcare workers.

No cost? Where's the compensation come from? Your math doesn't seem to add up.

Originally Posted by sockmonster

Without taxing them to death, mind you.

No death or taxes! That's basically Ron Paul's platform, eliminate the income tax, and eliminate the warfare state.

[Gilby]

Originally Posted by wobbling bear

" discovering there is not enough gold in the galaxy to match goods and services?
then go to Barter.com!
Barter.com the best deal you can get for your goods!
until november 1rst our special discount: two sacks of grain for your stone ax!"

It's amazing how most people think that gold limits the economy. It does not. One's own production capabilities and all raw materials limits the economy. Gold is just a medium of exchange and one of many assets one can have to save for future needs and wants. Do you hold all your assets in cash? I would hope not.

[Gilby]

Originally Posted by sockmonster

"Now available on Barter.com, special 'signature' edition Ron Paul globes and world maps! Featuring the United States and NOTHING ELSE. Great for schools which no longer receive public funding.

Hey, it's that or nothing, right? BARTER.COM!"

A map with just the US on it. At the rate we are going with our imperialism, that's the way we are heading. Ron Paul wants to change that.

Why do people associate not meddling in the affairs of other nations and going to war against them as being isolationist? If we alienate everyone, isn't that isolationist? Trading and being friendly with other nations would be a much more open and international policy.

What you and your local community do for your local school is up to you, not the federal government. Don't you want control over your own community's school?

[jack-y]

I agree with him on some things but am totally against him other things.

He's seems like a regular pre-W. Bush conservative. After Dubya, anybody looks like a good candidate.

[Gilby]

Originally Posted by jack-y

He's seems like a regular pre-W. Bush conservative.

I wish the pre-W conservatives were like Ron Paul. They may have had the rhetoric, but their actions were nothing like it.

Originally Posted by jack-y

After Dubya, anybody looks like a good candidate.

All the other republicans are Dubya imitations. On the other side, the only peace candidates are Gravel and Kucinich.

[monkeyman]

Originally Posted by Gilby

It's amazing how most people think that gold limits the economy. It does not. One's own production capabilities and all raw materials limits the economy. Gold is just a medium of exchange and one of many assets one can have to save for future needs and wants. Do you hold all your assets in cash? I would hope not.

Ok, I think your argument finally just clicked for me. Are you basically saying that the worth of things/money is backed in gold, but other things can be used as currency? It seems so simple, but for some reason I wasn't grasping it until now. I feel mildly dumb.

This gold standard is one of the main reasons I'm hesitant on Ron Paul, mainly because I don't fully understand it.

[feel the light]

Well, actually it's a public to stupid to realize they are being stripped naked by war profiteers. But maybe the next election will fix that. Leaving us with the debt (close to 700 bil just for Iraq so far ). We are many trillions in the red.
Getting rid of the income tax will cut gov income income tremendously. It will need to be replaced with a consumption (sales tax).Switching to gold and silver currency will cause deflation (it always has in the past, more goods and people bidding with a fixed money supply raises the value of the gold). The last periods where we had deflation was in the early 1930's, and the 1890's. Both periods of great suffering, mass unemployment, and greatly reduced consumption. This will greatly reduce gov income from sales tax, now at both a federal and state level.
I could see this leading to a point where the gov income will be less then needed to cover the interest on the debt. So all government programs will be ended. We end Medicaid, food stamps, and SS, shortly before we default on the interest payments of the government backed bonds that pay for private pensions and annuities. Everyone defaults on their mortgages, and the banks get all the land.
Conversely, inflation makes both personal and government debt cheaper to pay off. I am not recommending 100% inflation, but as a worst case scenario, it chops, in real terms, all government debt and mortgages in half.
You know what Gilby, I think you have done the impossible. I figured I would end up voting for Hill Dog in the big election, holding my nose and dreading it. Suddenly I am glad that the country looks well on track to Clinton 2. You have convinced me that things could indeed be much, much worse. I suddenly feel so rich that I don't have to watch my neighbors starve to death while I guard my vegetable patch all day clutching a shotgun.

[GILD]

Originally Posted by Gilby

It's amazing how most people think that gold limits the economy. It does not.

It may not limit but it does inhibit.
Especially fast-growing economies.
The central bank will not be able to get additional money supply into a growing economy fast enough if they have to back it with gold first.
It's quicker and more immediate if they can 'just' print it. (Obviously with proper inflation-targets in place, blah-blah-blah)

This is one of the main arguments against the gold standard.
From a (hopefully even faster) developing country's point of view anyway.

[maestro8]

Originally Posted by feel the light

Getting rid of the income tax will cut gov income income tremendously.

You say that as if it's a bad thing. Why don't we cut out a layer or two of middle-management in the gov't at the same time... and a few three-letter agencies while we're at it... and we might come out ahead!

I could see this leading to a point where the gov income will be less then needed to cover the interest on the debt.

Okay, that's a very cynical view, but how about seeing things leading to a point where the debt becomes less than anything we'd need to worry about. If we begin our cuts by offing the IRS, DEA, ATF and a few others, pay off the debt, then cut income taxes, we're home free, no?

[Gilby]

Originally Posted by monkeyman

Ok, I think your argument finally just clicked for me. Are you basically saying that the worth of things/money is backed in gold, but other things can be used as currency? It seems so simple, but for some reason I wasn't grasping it until now. I feel mildly dumb.

The worth of something is denominated in gold. Just like right now if I go to Europe, I'd pay something in euros with my debit/credit card, but I don't have euros in my account, so dollars are taken from my account and exchanged on the market for the currency they accept, the euro.

It could be anything. Let's say I have a brokerage account, hook my credit card to that and when I make a purchase it could trade a share of stock (or any other equitable asset) for whatever asset the seller wants. None of us may need gold as an asset and therefore the actual transaction may not include gold, but the purchase could be denominated in gold since that's the commonly known unit of value.

For transactions that are not electronic, using coins and warehouse receipts would be common. The reason gold and silver became common is because they were easy to coin in specific massed and they have a lot of value for a small amount. The value of the metal is based on what it can be used for, and the demand for it's use, just like the value of gasoline has a value based on it's supply and demand.

Originally Posted by GILD

The central bank will not be able to get additional money supply into a growing economy fast enough if they have to back it with gold first.

We are talking about getting rid of the central bank. At least in this country, the governments do not have the power to issue paper money. They can only coin money.

If the economy is growing fast, that means the supply of equitable assets is growing fast as well.

[Gilby]

Originally Posted by feel the light

The biggest problem with the US now is the gov debt

And when you have a system of money that is solely backed by debt, what do you think the incentives are?

Originally Posted by feel the light

Getting rid of the income tax will cut gov income income tremendously. It will need to be replaced with a consumption (sales tax).

If we bring the troops home and reduce other spending. We can reduce the spending. If we reduce spending to the levels we had in 2000, we could eliminate the income tax.

Originally Posted by feel the light

Switching to gold and silver currency will cause deflation (it always has in the past, more goods and people bidding with a fixed money supply raises the value of the gold). The last periods where we had deflation was in the early 1930's, and the 1890's.

Technically, the buying power of gold increasing isn't deflation. It's simply appreciation. A deflation can only occur as the result of an inflation and it occurs with paper money. You print more money than you have the gold to back it and you get inflation. Then when you take those extra notes out of circulation, you get deflation, and many people that are screwed because they couldn't get anything for their notes. That is the common trend in all the depressions.

Originally Posted by feel the light

So all government programs will be ended.

Cool. Those things you listed aren't constitutional anyways. What you need to grasp is that the federal governments main purpose is to protect our liberties from foreign threats. The states handle the rest. You want socialism? Keep it in your state and let people move to their preferred states. Though do your socialism without infringing on the life, liberty, or property or others.

Originally Posted by feel the light

Conversely, inflation makes both personal and government debt cheaper to pay off.

Well, not really. The new credit bids up the prices for the assets being purchased, so the loan rate may be low, but the price is higher, which means you're actually paying about the same depending on when you get in the market. The market assumes the same rate of inflation for this.

Originally Posted by feel the light

I am not recommending 100% inflation, but as a worst case scenario, it chops, in real terms, all government debt and mortgages in half.

Hyperinflation would do that.

Originally Posted by feel the light

You know what Gilby, I think you have done the impossible. I figured I would end up voting for Hill Dog in the big election, holding my nose and dreading it. Suddenly I am glad that the country looks well on track to Clinton 2. You have convinced me that things could indeed be much, much worse. I suddenly feel so rich that I don't have to watch my neighbors starve to death while I guard my vegetable patch all day clutching a shotgun.

I hope we don't have to see Clinton 2 bring that to us. We need someone who understands how money works to be in office when the the money system can no longer be sustained. I hope it doesn't happen with Bush still in office.

[feel the light]

So the gov abolishes the IRS and the Fed. We declare our dollar wealth no longer legal tender. Legal transactions will be expressed in fixed amounts of gold and silver, copper. Only hard currency will be issued.

1. Our gov just lost it's job of collecting taxes. We can't tax barter. And we just declared our paper currency worthless. Plus we are 5 or 6 trillion dollars in debt. Can we just totally default and say STFU to everyone in the world who is owed money by the USA. ? Maybe, we have lot's of Nuke's, and are good at telling other countries to STFU. Let's say Paul says, "Go for it, we must be free of paper money" !

2. Where do we get all the metal to make all these coins? We will need the equivalent of half a trillion dollars worth of metal, at least. Who can we buy it from? Our gov has no income, and we just declared that we will no longer print anymore money. Why would the world sell us gold when our money is worthless, we just lost our income, we just defaulted on 6 trillion dollars in debt? I bet the world will say to us, "no way you get any gold or credit from us dudes, cause you a broke crazy guy."

3 What if Kris wants to sell 1000 KH's in Europe. Does he have the right to demand they pay him in gold ? What does he do when they say no ? What if they still use fiat currency ? If we must continue to except their paper Euro in order to do business, what have we gained dumping the paper dollar ?

4 The gov's choice will be to back the dollars in circulation now, at some fixed exchange rate to the new gold dollar (metal from where ?), or abandon it. If we say we will exchange 2000 $ in paper dollars, for an oz of gold, we must continue to pay this gold for more then 30 years (as already issued bonds mature). What if we run out of gold ? We are trillions in debt now, and there is perhaps a few hundred billion in gold in the USA now at these prices. What if the world price of gold rises a great deal ?

5 What if the rest of the world doesn't elect hard coin Paulites ? They think he's crazy and act all Euro socialist on us, and go their own way. What if their fiat money economies continue the same path of exponential growth they have enjoyed for the last decades ? Yet we end up with a 3rd world rate of economic activity shared by other hard currency-barter economies ? Won't that make us their bitch ?

Transferring from our present paper money system to the gold dollar will pose more then a few problems. I think Paul is taking a page from the great Reagan's play book. Ron was big on the gold based dollar, and projecting a sense of old fashion common money logic. But once in office, he never mentioned it again.

[Danni]

Originally Posted by feel the light

So the gov abolishes the IRS and the Fed. We declare our dollar wealth no longer legal tender. Legal transactions will be expressed in fixed amounts of gold and silver, copper. Only hard currency will be issued.

1. Our gov just lost it's job of collecting taxes. We can't tax barter. And we just declared our paper currency worthless. Plus we are 5 or 6 trillion dollars in debt. Can we just totally default and say STFU to everyone in the world who is owed money by the USA. ? Maybe, we have lot's of Nuke's, and are good at telling other countries to STFU. Let's say Paul says, "Go for it, we must be free of paper money" !

2. Where do we get all the metal to make all these coins? We will need the equivalent of half a trillion dollars worth of metal, at least. Who can we buy it from? Our gov has no income, and we just declared that we will no longer print anymore money. Why would the world sell us gold when our money is worthless, we just lost our income, we just defaulted on 6 trillion dollars in debt? I bet the world will say to us, "no way you get any gold or credit from us dudes, cause you a broke crazy guy."

3 What if Kris wants to sell 1000 KH's in Europe. Does he have the right to demand they pay him in gold ? What does he do when they say no ? What if they still use fiat currency ? If we must continue to except their paper Euro in order to do business, what have we gained dumping the paper dollar ?

4 The gov's choice will be to back the dollars in circulation now, at some fixed exchange rate to the new gold dollar (metal from where ?), or abandon it. If we say we will exchange 2000 $ in paper dollars, for an oz of gold, we must continue to pay this gold for more then 30 years (as already issued bonds mature). What if we run out of gold ? We are trillions in debt now, and there is perhaps a few hundred billion in gold in the USA now at these prices. What if the world price of gold rises a great deal ?

5 What if the rest of the world doesn't elect hard coin Paulites ? They think he's crazy and act all Euro socialist on us, and go their own way. What if their fiat money economies continue the same path of exponential growth they have enjoyed for the last decades ? Yet we end up with a 3rd world rate of economic activity shared by other hard currency-barter economies ? Won't that make us their bitch ?

Transferring from our present paper money system to the gold dollar will pose more then a few problems. I think Paul is taking a page from the great Reagan's play book. Ron was big on the gold based dollar, and projecting a sense of old fashion common money logic. But once in office, he never mentioned it again.

Sales taxes (including things coming in and out of the country) will pay towards the debt, which should be sufficient if he pulls out of Iraq, end homeland security (which is absolutely useless), etc. Basically he spends way way way less, and so doesn't need income taxes.

He is not going to make the money out of gold, but you can trade in your dollar if you wish for a fixed amount of gold. The money will still be transacted in paper form, but you can go to a government building and demand that your money be changed into gold. This stops the government from printing money (for if the value of the dollar goes down, people will demand their gold), and adds stability to the currency.