What are your views on gay rights in America?

[yoopers]

Originally Posted by James_Potter

It appears to me that people hate gays for two main reasons, the first being religion (usually some branch of Christianity) and the second is that people fear what they don't know/understand, or what is different...regarding the first reason (I'm gonna generalize here) Christianity is a rather arrogant religion in that many Christians feel it is their duty to force their own beliefs on to everyone else. They have very pure motives (to "save" the unbelievers from going to Hell) so you can't entirely blame 'em for trying to convert those who are not Christians, but when they try to force their own personal prejudices (is the plural of prejudice, prejudi?) upon those who don't share the same beliefs to start with, well, that's just not cool. Personally I understand why these Christians don't think being gay is right, it's in the bible and all, but for one thing, not everyone believes in the Bible and so you can't (shouldn't) force these beliefs on American Buddhists or American Hindus, and for another, I just forgot my second point, I'll remember later.

Mikael,

You know I generally don't get involved in religious or political discussions or debates on the forums, but I feel you are making some short-sighted accusations here to which I'll respond.

Every religion has it's extremists including Christianity. And it's always a shame that a group seems to become known by it's bad apples. But Christianity is supposed to be based on love, not hate. In that, I don't hate gay people. I don't hate any 'people' for that matter. I do as you pointed out diligently believe and follow my Bible's teaching on homosexuality. But my views on gay marriage are not simply a matter of withholding rights or freedoms from people. They are much more in depth in that it I see the situation deeply affecting life and culture of communities country and me...and I'll leave that discussion right there.

To your second point, that Christians shove their beliefs down unwanted throats. Firstly, Christianity is very similiar to any other religion on the face of the earth; it desires to make converts to its belief system because its members believe the faith to be the truth. That was the agenda of the Hare Krishna the last time I met on campus with them at their evening service. (Best food I'd had in a long time!) Secondly, apart from the extremists, again every religion seems to have them, it is generally not the norm that Christians grab people by the throats and scream "REPENT!" As stated before in these forums, I'll let you watch the way I live my life as a Christian in an effort to live out my proof of its truth. It's called relational evangelism.

You had some good thoughts, though. I just had to jump in with some defense. But now it's waaaaay past my bedtime. I'm sure I'll see your response in the morning.

[CliffNaylor]

Gilby, delete this thread asap!!! IT WAS POSTED BY BUSH!!! AHH DELETE ALL THE GOOD STUFF!!!

[ThisGuyIKnow]

Don't hide behind the Bible as excuse to withhold privileges from people.

The Bible also says not to work on Sundays, but many Christians do that on a regular basis. The government certainly couldn't get away with outlawing that.

If you call yourself a Christian you'd have compassion for the families that have been destroyed because the state refuses to recognize their marriage even when their church does.

[saskatchewanian]

My position is that gays should be able to get married in a legal since and also a religious sense as long as said religion agrees with it. I think that the government has no place telling the church that they need to marry people despite their objections. If one church will not marry a couple then another probably will so that should not be a problem.

As for the issue of rights; you do not make rights, you cannot give them; you can affirm recognize, ignore or oppress them. Muniadict is right that it is not your right to get married but a great privilege. A privilege that gays should not be excluded from.

I acknowledge that the traditional definition of marriage is between man and woman but I believe that that things change and it is high time for this to change as well.

What makes people think that gays cant raise a family? To be able to adopt couples need to be checked out by child services and have a criminal record check and all that jazz. If you cant tell I'm actually not all that familiar with the system but I do know that they don’t just give kids to whoever asks for them. If a gay couple is seen fit (for who they are, not for the fact they are gay) then there is no reason they should not have a kid.

Why would the kid be messed up? I know a few people who grew up in single parent homes and they ended up OK. Being raised by a gay couple would be like a cross between being raised by a single parent (male or female influence but not both) and a traditional couple so the kid can get the same amount of attention.

By the way, this is an issue in many places in the world not just the States.

[James_Potter]

Originally Posted by yoopers

Every religion has it's extremists including Christianity. And it's always a shame that a group seems to become known by it's bad apples. But Christianity is supposed to be based on love, not hate. In that, I don't hate gay people. I don't hate any 'people' for that matter. I do as you pointed out diligently believe and follow my Bible's teaching on homosexuality. But my views on gay marriage are not simply a matter of withholding rights or freedoms from people. They are much more in depth in that it I see the situation deeply affecting life and culture of communities country and me...and I'll leave that discussion right there.

It's pretty much normal to see the very worst sides of any group, any person, any idea, etc...I know I was generalizing (I said that I was), and I certainly know that all Christians don't hate gays...but those who hate gays are, most often, some sort of Christian (or call themselves that). Actually I think hate isn't really the right word...intolerant of, perhaps is more accurate. Once again I know all Christians aren't like that...So, don't think that I have this anti-Christian in any way, I do disagree with some of their beliefs yeah, but Christians (in general) must disagree with some of my beliefs too so to say that's a bad thing would make me a hypocrite (:

To your second point, that Christians shove their beliefs down unwanted throats. Firstly, Christianity is very similiar to any other religion on the face of the earth; it desires to make converts to its belief system because its members believe the faith to be the truth. That was the agenda of the Hare Krishna the last time I met on campus with them at their evening service. (Best food I'd had in a long time!) Secondly, apart from the extremists, again every religion seems to have them, it is generally not the norm that Christians grab people by the throats and scream "REPENT!" As stated before in these forums, I'll let you watch the way I live my life as a Christian in an effort to live out my proof of its truth. It's called relational evangelism.

I forgot about Hare Krishnas...they were a little before my time I think. But my parents told me they used to like hang out at airports and stuff. And there's that one scene from Airplane...but anyway. Of all religions, Christianity is the one most well known for evangelizing...that might just be because it's the biggest religion in the world. But even so, you don't get Buddhist or Muslim missionaries at your door or preaching on TV (: Sooo, this generalization of course isn't very accurate at all, and I don't wish to further spread a false belief about a group of people, I think it's rather relevant to the current discussion (legalization of gay marriage) because I feel that the entire issue really comes down to those who do believe it's wrong for religious purposes, and trying to run the country based on those beliefs...I don't entirely blame them because I mean we elected these people, and now they're trying to do their job how they feel is morally right...its just that most people think these decisions are morally wrong.

[torkerdx]

Originally Posted by DrumCorpsFan

gays arent people, they better never have rights. theyre lower than scum in a septic tank

and because you feel that way about a person who's only difference is that he likes the same sex makes you even worse than what you think of gays.

what makes a gay person different than you? not that much and not something you could tell by looking at them.

how is discriminating against gays any different than discriminating against black people or not giving women equal rights or discriminating against a religion? its not.

what if someone said to you "your religion sucks, so get rid of it"
it is basically the same thing that you just said to gay people

if you aren't affecting anyone you should be allowed to live your life the way you want to with out being harrased

[wickedbob]

They should have all the rights just like anyone else your sexuality should not make you any less deserving of anything such as the right to marriage or anything else. I also believe people need to accept them for who they are by being obnoxious (many are here) and being an ass is not going to change anything at all. Also people that dislike gay people often have no argument (reasonable one) of why they don't like gay people except they're gay which is like saying I hate you cause your white, black or anything else much of it is fueled by the same ignorance. I don't know how stupid people are, but I am tired of people acting like being around a gay person is going to turn you gay (unless you really are) that is just ridiculous.

P.S. On a side note it was proven more homophobic people were turned on by gay people than the average person. That could be the reason they hate gay people....

[cathwood]

Originally Posted by Gilby

Wouldn't you want to define those yourself and write your own contract? Makes you wonder why gay people are fighting for a privilege to be subject to the State.

This is kind of missing the point.

Presumably gay people are fighting to have the same rights/privilages as everyone else. Then they can chose what kind of partnership/contract they have. At the moment they do not have the choice, although heterosexual couples do. Perhaps they are fighting for the 'right' to chose, rather than the 'privilage' of marriage.

I think everyone should have the choice and not be discrimiated against because of thier gender.

[yoopers]

Originally Posted by wickedbob

like saying I hate you cause your white, black or anything else

Mr. Bob,

That works for so many issues. I am certainly all for protecting the rights of engendered groups of people. For the issue of homosexuality though, it does not work in my book as don't most of the stances within this thread because I do not believe that homosexuality is a trait. I firmly believe that it is a behavior. And I do not see that as intolerant (as is sure to be the cry). It's simply a statement of fact (for me ) about a situation that exists.

[yoopers]

Originally Posted by James_Potter

but those who hate gays are, most often, some sort of Christian (or call themselves that).

I don't know. If I were to guess, I might be tempted to say that military folks could be the most intolerant of gays. My job in the mililtary took me across the paths of so many from across the branches and it seems to me that the military was chock full of some pretty staunch people. If I had to define homosexual intolerance, it might be tough not to point at the mililtary.

Here's what's going to get me into trouble though. I think such an intolerance in the military is a good thing.

[cathwood]

Originally Posted by yoopers

Mr. Bob,
For the issue of homosexuality though, it does not work in my book as don't most of the stances within this thread because I do not believe that homosexuality is a trait. I firmly believe that it is a behavior. And I do not see that as intolerant (as is sure to be the cry). It's simply a statement of fact (for me ) about a situation that exists.

But why would homosexuality being a behaviour rather than an inbuilt predisposition/trait/whatever make a difference to whether gay people had the choice about whether to marry thier chosen partner or not?

[yoopers]

Originally Posted by cathwood

But why would homosexuality being a behaviour rather than an inbuilt predisposition/trait/whatever make a difference to whether gay people had the choice about whether to marry thier chosen partner or not?

Because the behavior does not grant the status of a group deserving rights any more than runners of stop signs deserve group status or protected rights.

[Unicorn]

I see the gay fight for the right to same sex mairraige on par with the black movement for equality in the 50's. I think that in the future school kids are going to study about thier struggle just as they learn about Martin Luther King.

Besides why shouldn't Gays be allowed to suffer in mairraige just like the rest of us? Why does the heterosexual white male always get the shit end of the stick?

It is said that mairrage is like a three ring circus - Engagement ring, Wedding ring and SuffeRING.

Anyone should be allowed to do whatever they want as long as it does not infringe opon ohters.

If gays are not allowed to marry why not ban interaicial mairraige? Why not ban interfaith mairage?

Unicorn

[UniBrier]

I don’t know how many of you get the e-mail updates from our fellow unicyclist Lars Clausen but if you want some perspective on how, even in the Christian church, people fall into two camps I suggest you take the time to read the 25 posts over four pages of his blog. The conversation starts on October 27, 2006 then ends on February 21, 2007.

To read in order go to the bottom of the blog and click “Older Posts” three times then scroll down to the first post:

WELCOME TO A NEW CONVERSATION!

Dr. David Glesne's book UNDERSTANDING HOMOSEXUALITY, has been provided free to pastors of the Evangelical Lutheran Church, throughout America. I read Glesne's book, wrote him a letter, and asked for a conversation.

Glesne agreed including also that it would be good for us to communicate publically via blog. So here it is, a conversation we can all participate in. Today I'm posting the letter that I first wrote to David Glesne. On Monday I'll post his reply to me. From then on we'll be posting directly to this blog. Please use the comments and add your thoughts and experiences. In these terribly polarized days, I hope this conversation can be of use.

David Glesne and I are both trained in the same Lutheran Christian tradition, yet Glesne's book is very different from my own STRAIGHT INTO GAY AMERICA. How do we establish our viewpoints and beliefs? How do we change them? I expect to learn much from this conversation. Thank you in advance for your participation. Please invite others.

[yoopers]

Originally Posted by Unicorn

I see the gay fight for the right to same sex mairraige on par with the black movement for equality in the 50's. I think that in the future school kids are going to study about thier struggle just as they learn about Martin Luther King.

If gays are not allowed to marry why not ban interaicial mairraige? Why not ban interfaith mairage?

That's a great argument if, as does the rest of the thread, you believe that homosexuality is an engendered trait.

Originally Posted by Unicorn

It is said that mairrage is like a three ring circus - Engagement ring, Wedding ring and SuffeRING.

Evidently I only have a two-ring circus. I love being married. I love the married and family life and everything about it. Sure we have our difficulties, everyone does, but those times come and go. Married is the foundation for the good times and the difficult times, but it still supports the whole works.

Originally Posted by Unicorn

Anyone should be allowed to do whatever they want as long as it does not infringe opon ohters.

The difficult part here is what does one define as infringing? For example, I don't like hearing profanity in public. It grates me the wrong way, makes me sad, and in my opinion, infringes on my right to make my way through a day in peace. But the other side of the coin would argue free speech and the works and can't understand why I have a problem with it. So who's right?