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Old 2013-02-14, 02:28 AM   #31
Nurse Ben
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In your last picture the rider appears to be leaning the frame back to compensate for riding downhill into an obstacle. I don't ride with my frame back, at least not on a flat surface, and when I climb the frame is leaned forward.

The proof is in the pudding, I have tried riding a completely flat seat position and it rode terrible, then as I gradually tilted the seat back the feel and control improved. I continue to play with seat angle, even trying to push myself to reduce the angle over time, but I seem to be at a sweet spot after a couple weeks, 8-10 degrees depending on the seat base and foam.
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Old 2013-02-14, 02:44 AM   #32
GizmoDuck
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
In your last picture the rider appears to be leaning the frame back to compensate for riding downhill into an obstacle. I don't ride with my frame back, at least not on a flat surface, and when I climb the frame is leaned forward.

The proof is in the pudding, I have tried riding a completely flat seat position and it rode terrible, then as I gradually tilted the seat back the feel and control improved. I continue to play with seat angle, even trying to push myself to reduce the angle over time, but I seem to be at a sweet spot after a couple weeks, 8-10 degrees depending on the seat base and foam.
Sure, it does vary with whether you are going uphill or downhill or on the flat. It was just a handy picture to illustrate the point. It wasn't completely flat as you point out- but it was a fairly a shallow dip into the stream. When I'm climbing off the saddle, the frame comes upright, but never tilted forwards. So I would estimate that my frame angle varies between -45 and 0 degrees with respect to a vertical plane, but never +45 or greater than 0.

That's why I've found having the saddle either flat or with a slight downtilt to work well for most situations.

Last edited by GizmoDuck; 2013-02-14 at 02:44 AM.
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Old 2013-02-14, 02:53 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post

There are off set posts, Thompson makes a nice one, but the diameter is much larger than what we use for unicycles. I guess you could cut and weld a post, but I'm not taking a saw to a Thompson!
Thomson make 27.2mm setback posts, no 25.4mm setback for nimbus uni's though....

http://bikethomson.com/seatposts/elite-seatpost-series/

Edit nevermind I see you said that earlier....

Last edited by OutdoorJunkie; 2013-02-14 at 03:00 AM.
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Old 2013-02-14, 02:54 AM   #34
GizmoDuck
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
Except, unicyclists sit far more upright than a cyclist, so a downward angled set on a unicycle would be very unstable. I ride a road bike with a very slight downward angle when using down bars, but for a more upright position on a mountain bike I ride a flat seat.
.
Ok, it might be more to do with ones riding style. On a bike the saddle angle is fixed (relative to the ground).

Here is another pic of me, this time on completely flat ground. You'll see I still tilt my frame backwards.

.
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Last edited by GizmoDuck; 2013-02-14 at 03:02 AM.
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Old 2013-02-14, 03:53 AM   #35
Pete NNC
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Flatfish Street/trials

I have just finished this and it is light and stiff, just waiting for Boffy to try out then I will let you know what the verdict is, I like it but don't have much trials experience.

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Old 2013-02-14, 11:43 AM   #36
aracer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uniShark View Post
It seems to me that shifting the seat forward and back is functionally the same as adjusting the tilt of the seat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
You are not moving the seat forward and backward in an arc centered on the spindle, but forward relative to the centerline of the unicycle. Think of the seat like you would think of a hammer, the seat is the head, so if you were to slide the seat/head forward on the post/handle, it changes the balance.

Moving the seat forward is no different than sitting forward or backward on the seat. I find that with the flat seat I am sitting forward as much as an inch more than I did on a curved seat. Tilting the seat helps keep me back, but only because it become more uncomfortable to get forward. Since the point of a flat seat is comfort, like Tim said, too much tilt defeats the purpose.
I agree with uniShark. You get exactly the same effect by tilting the saddle as by shifting the seat forwards and backwards. I'm not at all surprised that Ben prefers a saddle which is slightly tilted up, as that has the same effect as shifting the saddle forwards. Nor am I surprised than Ken prefers a slightly tilted down saddle - looking at the pictures he's posted it is clear he likes a more rearwards saddle position.

Here are some diagrams to illustrate the point:
flat saddle
saddle moved forwards
extra bit of frame added in red
original black frame removed
unicycle rotated back so frame is upright

As you can see, if you tilt the saddle back and then rotate the frame forwards, what you get is a flat saddle shifted forwards (note that you'll also want to increase your saddle height slightly). Who cares what angle the frame is at - a point illustrated by my second diagram of a frame type popular with cheap unicycles - what angle is the frame in that?
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Old 2013-02-14, 05:01 PM   #37
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that trials seat mocks me
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Old 2013-02-14, 07:31 PM   #38
Pete NNC
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[QUOTE=aracer;1571617]I agree with uniShark.

Well put, when I tilt the seat to the best angle for me, it feels level when I ride, and no nut crush
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Old 2013-02-15, 01:02 AM   #39
uniShark
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aracer View Post
I agree with uniShark. You get exactly the same effect by tilting the saddle as by shifting the seat forwards and backwards. I'm not at all surprised that Ben prefers a saddle which is slightly tilted up, as that has the same effect as shifting the saddle forwards. Nor am I surprised than Ken prefers a slightly tilted down saddle - looking at the pictures he's posted it is clear he likes a more rearwards saddle position.

Here are some diagrams to illustrate the point:
flat saddle
saddle moved forwards
extra bit of frame added in red
original black frame removed
unicycle rotated back so frame is upright

As you can see, if you tilt the saddle back and then rotate the frame forwards, what you get is a flat saddle shifted forwards (note that you'll also want to increase your saddle height slightly). Who cares what angle the frame is at - a point illustrated by my second diagram of a frame type popular with cheap unicycles - what angle is the frame in that?
I agree with you agreeing with me. The diagrams do help explain what I was trying to say.
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Old 2013-02-15, 01:49 AM   #40
GizmoDuck
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aracer View Post
Here are some diagrams to illustrate the point:
flat saddle
saddle moved forwards
extra bit of frame added in red
original black frame removed
unicycle rotated back so frame is upright

As you can see, if you tilt the saddle back and then rotate the frame forwards, what you get is a flat saddle shifted forwards (note that you'll also want to increase your saddle height slightly). Who cares what angle the frame is at - a point illustrated by my second diagram of a frame type popular with cheap unicycles - what angle is the frame in that?
Thanks for the diagrams. I think I agree with you too.

Another way to look at it is that, regardless of the saddle angle, it will equillibriate to a relatively flat or (satisfactory) position to how you are riding.

What changes is the angle of the frame (which gets adjusted up/down).

On a curved saddle, the same applies, but changing the tilt might also result in one sitting on different parts of the curve.

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Old 2013-02-16, 11:40 PM   #41
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I have the front of my seat at a negitive angle
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Old 2013-02-18, 01:17 PM   #42
Nurse Ben
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Still playing with the seat angle, pushing myself to ride with the seat flatter and flatter, riding the ghetto flat seat most because it's on my muni, didn't end up squashing a seat over the weekend so instead I shaved down my Freeride foam some more.

I think the foam is very important in getting a particular "feel". The KH foam is way to thick as it comes, but when shaved down it is a little too firm. I ride without padding in my shorts, so maybe that would change things.

My favorite foam so far is the Nimbus gel pad "old style".

@ Wes, post pics of your negative seat.
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Old 2013-02-18, 02:40 PM   #43
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So far the Flatfish has met or exceeded my high expectations. I got a 40 mile ride in on it last weekend. It took a few stops and tweaking of the seat angle to get it where I think it will stay.

The foam and cover are from a KH Street seat. I still may play a bit with it to get it exactly where I want it. I didn't glue the foam to the base as I found the cover to hold the foam in place enough for now.

The better support of the sit bones is fantastic. The added benefit is the lower handle and stiffness of the carbon base. It gives me more leverage when pulling up on the handle. The slightly farther reach took a bit to get used to, but the longer reach affords a lot more leverage.

Thanks Peter for making these available!
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Old 2013-02-18, 05:31 PM   #44
Nurse Ben
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Quote:
Thanks Peter for making these available!
Not only did he make the seat base, he made an awesome seat base to boot!

The biggest thing for me is that Pete got the "flat seat movement" rolling, so now folks can buy ready made flat seat alternatives or even try their hand at making a ghetto flat seat.

I had a standard KH Freeride in my hands last night, and honestly, I can't believe I rode that torture machine for as long as I did. Now my testes feel great, no rubbing or abrasion outside of what I'd expect from a bike seat.

I think there could be some foam tweaking, maybe making "dimples" for the sit bones vs using overly soft foam, or do like some bicycle seats and mold the dimples into the base.

On my seats I have been maintaining a little rise in the nose, the ghetto seat on my muni has the most with maybe an inch rising from the seat center to the bumper, and the Flatfish on my 36er has less with maybe 1/2" rising from the seat center to the bumper.

For muni I still like having a little rise in the nose, it helps with thigh control in tight turns and through tech stuff.
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Old 2013-02-18, 10:45 PM   #45
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