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Old 2017-07-07, 06:34 PM   #526
William393
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Much of what Trump already accomplished impacts the USA. http://www.businessinsider.com/trump...uring-policy-2

Freeing up polluters to dump in streams, etc.
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Old 2017-07-08, 04:19 AM   #527
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OK, let's say it's all true: Putin, the evil genius, attacked and destroyed America's wonderful democracy by changing the outcome of the election...
It's not whether the meddling changed the outcome of the election, it's the fact that it occurred, and clearly seems to have caused at least some influence. It's probably impossible to measure how much. Whether this benefitted the current president or not isn't the point (or at least shouldn't be); it's the fact that they are attacking our democratic process and at the moment we're pretending it didn't even happen.

I don't think we're more likely to end up in a war with Russia, I think we're more likely to be "influenced" out of our Bill of Rights by a gullible leadership that wants to "be friends" with Putin.
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...Freeing up polluters to dump in streams, etc.
Freeing up racists to be more open about opressing people of color
Freeing up bullies to continue being bullies, just like their nation's leader
Freeing up the rich to continue their consolidation of everyone else's wealth (okay, not saying this one would have been much different)
Freeing up people who don't like to read or follow the news to just decide what's true, instead of actually wanting to find out
Freeing up Russia, and who knows how many other countries, to take advantage of our White House's ineptitude and lack of experience

Yup, doesn't matter who won that election...
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Old 2017-07-08, 03:15 PM   #528
William393
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Trump is anti-establishment. Or at least he's anti-political establishment. But he's also anti-minorities, anti-women, anti one whole major religion, and especially anti-truth. Trump's stance on things changes from day to day, as does his recollection of what he said yesterday. I have to believe that the only thing that motivates Trump is anything that builds Trump's ego or the Trump brand. He does not care about anything else, at least beyond whether or not it makes him look good/tough/successful/endowed in a manly way.
...
Remember when people said he'd get more presidential after he was in office?
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The problem with the over-familiar, cliché-prone way of describing things, according to Alain de Botton: “Clichés are detrimental in so far as they inspire us to believe that they adequately describe a situation while merely grazing at its surface.”
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Old 2017-07-08, 10:14 PM   #529
LargeEddie
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Remember when people said he'd get more presidential after he was in office?
I'm old enough to remember when they said he'd get more presidential after the primaries were over.
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Old 2017-07-09, 02:04 AM   #530
elpuebloUNIdo
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"If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything."
--Mark Twain

"Oh what a tangled web we weave,
When first we practise to deceive!"
--Sir Walter Scott

Neither of the above quotes applies to Donald Trump. Everyone knows he's a pathological liar. I assume that, if Hillary Clinton were president right now, and if she lied to the public, she would at the very least be aware of the truth she hid from the public. Maybe the typical Trump supporter prefers a flat out liar over a sneaky liar.
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Old 2017-07-09, 03:06 PM   #531
wobbling bear
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though most french people think that D. Trump is a reincarnation of King UBU we will welcome him for the 14th of July ("bastille day").
The rules of hospitality are important: we must welcome any human being ... till .... (wait for the next war to come)
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Old 2017-07-11, 04:10 PM   #532
song
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It's not whether the meddling changed the outcome of the election, it's the fact that it occurred, and clearly seems to have caused at least some influence.
Did Wall Street influence the US elections? Absolutely! The Pentagon and the corporations it feeds? Of course! Is this military-industrial complex detrimental to our constitutional rights? Even Eisenhower said so!

Russia? Not according to any evidence I've seen, or even that Dianne Feinstein has seen, apparently, and she is a member of the Senate Intelligence Committee!

The John Podesta and Debbie Wasserman-Schultz email leaks are the backbone of the Russian hacking allegations, but even in the unlikely event that they really are a product of Russian government hacking, it is doubtful that they had much influence on the election. The priceless information they contain has been almost completely ignored by the mainstream media, and, I would guess, is consequently unknown to most American voters. Even many American voters who are aware of these revelations would probably have been unswayed by them because American voters have very low expectations of the people they vote for to begin with. This is the logical outcome of more than a century of choosing the “lesser evil” every few years.
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Old 2017-07-11, 09:58 PM   #533
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Is this military-industrial complex detrimental to our constitutional rights? Even Eisenhower said so!
Apparently none of those counts as a foreign power.
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Russia? Not according to any evidence I've seen...
The FBI, NSA and CIA haven't shown me any of their evidence either. I think because much of it comes in the form of IP addresses and log files, it's not very juicy to the general public...

Are you suggesting that there was no coordinated Russian effort to meddle with/influence the 2016 election? That any evidence has been circumstantial? I believe the intelligence agencies have shared with us their conclusions, but not their methods. They're kind of reluctant to give that sort of stuff up.
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...it is doubtful that they had much influence on the election. The priceless information they contain has been almost completely ignored by the mainstream media, and, I would guess, is consequently unknown to most American voters.
Certainly most voters didn't actually read them. The influence comes from the media coverage, and how that may have affected voters' impressions of the candidates. So I guess the logical follow-up question there is how much of a role the media played? And maybe what your definition of "fake news" is. Trump's definition: Any news information that is unfavorable to the Trump administration or Trump brand. My partial definition: Anything that comes out of Donald Trump's mouth.
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...American voters have very low expectations of the people they vote for to begin with.
I used to think that was accurate, but after this election I think there are way too many voters who actually take candidates' words at face value, and are willing to "wishful thinking" them into office despite all the evidence to the contrary of what they're saying...
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Old 2017-07-12, 05:39 AM   #534
song
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Are you suggesting that there was no coordinated Russian effort to meddle with/influence the 2016 election? That any evidence has been circumstantial? I believe the intelligence agencies have shared with us their conclusions, but not their methods. They're kind of reluctant to give that sort of stuff up.
Well, US intelligence agencies are supposed to be accountable to the elected government of the capitalist class, especially to its Senate Intelligence Committee, so if even Dianne Feinstein says they didn't show her any evidence of collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia, you've got to really wonder what evidence exists. If the media repeatedly runs stories that demonize Russia, many of which have to be retracted, you have to wonder even more.

NSA director Michael Hayden said pretty much the same thing as Feinstein: that there's no evidence.

The Russian government news site, RT, did take note of Trump's more conciliatory rhetoric toward Russia during his campaign, but that doesn't constitute meddling in the election, and if you look at their coverage of him now, most of it is far from favorable.
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Old 2017-07-13, 03:02 AM   #535
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...so if even Dianne Feinstein says they didn't show her any evidence of collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia, you've got to really wonder what evidence exists.
You are talking about collusion. I don't think I mentioned that in the last couple of posts; I was talking about Russian meddling in the election process.

The facade of "No Collusion" is starting to crack, but so far there's not a lot. But there is some. The White House's argument has gone from "There was no collusion, ever, ever" to "Well yeah, I guess we did have that meeting, and that one, and that one too, that we forgot to mention" to "We don't consider that to be collusion." I see that as a developing story, but we still have to wait to see where it goes.
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