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Old 2018-01-24, 03:07 AM   #46
Up Rite
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Originally Posted by tholub View Post
Conflicts of interest among medical researchers are real, but they're far less prevalent than the conflicts of interests amongst people hawking New Age herbal hoo-hah, "medical" marijuana, or god forbid, homeopathy.

In particular, academic researchers are deeply acculturated to criticize each other's research. That means that, over time, the corpus of medical research gets improved, because results which cannot be replicated get criticized out, even if individual researchers support them. For example, a faculty member at Berkeley (Peter Duesberg), a once-respected virologist, got on an idea that AIDS was not caused by HIV, which in the mid-1980s was a perfectly legitimate question to ask. He, personally, is still stuck on the idea, but his research has been pretty thoroughly disproven. Academic knowledge has advanced past him, as it has advanced past the idea that vaccines cause autism (a claim pushed by a huckster for his own personal interest).

Science works. In fits and starts, human knowledge moves forward. The fact that scientific understanding of complex phenomena like human health continues to change is part of the process.

Now, laypeople tend to have a poor understanding of the scientific process, and often get fixated on a specific claim that they want to believe, as Mugabe did with Duesberg's claim, or Jenny McCarthy with vaccines, or various conservative nutjobs with a paper in the 1970s that talked about global cooling. And the effects of the way those people distort what science is telling is can be devastating. Thousands, possibly hundreds of thousands died in Zimbabwe because of Mugabe's policies.

You can't trust every scientist. But in general, you can trust science more than just about anything else.
Perhaps for medical science this was true long ago, like when they were prescribing cigarettes?

Medicine will continue to get tugged and pulled and otherwise directed in ways that suits the business or government interests that controls them. Currently the objective is to sustain and increase profits. This takes precedence above optimizing the health and longevity of the masses.

Hopefully some day this will change, so that medical science will have change to bring out truth as the primary objective instead. Currently they try to discredit anything outside of or threatening to their business model. They have no qualms about lying or falsifying information and use the corrupt legal and education system to do so.
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Old 2018-01-24, 05:10 AM   #47
Pinoclean
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Originally Posted by Up Rite View Post
Perhaps for medical science this was true long ago, like when they were prescribing cigarettes?

Medicine will continue to get tugged and pulled and otherwise directed in ways that suits the business or government interests that controls them. Currently the objective is to sustain and increase profits. This takes precedence above optimizing the health and longevity of the masses.

Hopefully some day this will change, so that medical science will have change to bring out truth as the primary objective instead. Currently they try to discredit anything outside of or threatening to their business model. They have no qualms about lying or falsifying information and use the corrupt legal and education system to do so.
I hear they have been keeping down the rise of 3-5 spoke wheels, flat solid rubber tires and carbon fibre unicycle frames also.

If it wasn't for medical professional intervention we would all be riding dream machines.
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Old 2018-01-24, 07:26 AM   #48
tholub
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Originally Posted by Up Rite View Post
Perhaps for medical science this was true long ago, like when they were prescribing cigarettes?

Medicine will continue to get tugged and pulled and otherwise directed in ways that suits the business or government interests that controls them. Currently the objective is to sustain and increase profits. This takes precedence above optimizing the health and longevity of the masses.

Hopefully some day this will change, so that medical science will have change to bring out truth as the primary objective instead. Currently they try to discredit anything outside of or threatening to their business model. They have no qualms about lying or falsifying information and use the corrupt legal and education system to do so.
I worked at UC Berkeley for 18 years. Every researcher I knew there was dedicated to increasing human knowledge. If their objectives were to sustain and increase profits, they were very clearly in the wrong business, because they were making peanuts compared to what they'd make in industry.

UC Berkeley, and the other great research institutions, do not have a business model tied to particular outcomes of research. Their main goal is to publish new research, which they do primarily in independent, peer-reviewed journals which accept no advertising nor money from industry. Researchers cannot succeed in their goals by lying or falsifying information; in fact, the career of any researcher who does will be over as soon as intentional falsification is discovered.

So you're making a pretty bold, and frankly outlandish claim, about the way science works in America today.
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Old 2018-01-24, 11:19 AM   #49
Pinoclean
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I worked at UC Berkeley for 18 years. Every researcher I knew there was dedicated to increasing human knowledge. If their objectives were to sustain and increase profits, they were very clearly in the wrong business, because they were making peanuts compared to what they'd make in industry.

UC Berkeley, and the other great research institutions, do not have a business model tied to particular outcomes of research. Their main goal is to publish new research, which they do primarily in independent, peer-reviewed journals which accept no advertising nor money from industry. Researchers cannot succeed in their goals by lying or falsifying information; in fact, the career of any researcher who does will be over as soon as intentional falsification is discovered.

So you're making a pretty bold, and frankly outlandish claim, about the way science works in America today.
Yeh but he got fat once after being told to eat a low carb diet by a dietician. So obviously the cause of that was that every researcher is corrupt and serving big pharma. How else could you explain the weight gain?
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Old 2018-01-25, 02:07 AM   #50
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Academic knowledge has advanced past him, as it has advanced past the idea that vaccines cause autism (a claim pushed by a huckster for his own personal interest).
The concern was not with the vaccines themselves, but with the mercury based preservative, Thiomersal. Both the CDC and the American Academy of Pediatrics urged pharma to discontinue the use of Thiomersal. Pharma's major defense was that rates of autism did not decline after the use of Thiomersal was discontinued.
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Old 2018-01-25, 03:11 AM   #51
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The concern was not with the vaccines themselves, but with the mercury based preservative, Thiomersal. Both the CDC and the American Academy of Pediatrics urged pharma to discontinue the use of Thiomersal. Pharma's major defense was that rates of autism did not decline after the use of Thiomersal was discontinued.
Nelson (NIH)+Bauman(Boston University) (in Pediatrics, 2003)
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Mercury poisoning and autism both affect the central nervous system but the specific sites of involvement in brain and the brain cell types affected are different in the two disorders as evidenced clinically and by neuropathology. Mercury also injures the peripheral nervous system and other organs that are not affected in autism. Nonspecific symptoms such as anxiety, depression, and irrational fears may occur both in mercury poisoning and in children with autism, but overall the clinical picture of mercurism—from any known form, dose, duration, or age of exposure—does not mimic that of autism. No case history has been encountered in which the differential diagnosis of these 2 disorders was a problem. Most important, no evidence yet brought forward indicates that children exposed to vaccines containing mercurials, or mercurials via any other route of exposure, have more autism than children with less or no such exposure.

CDC (2016)
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The researchers found that thimerosal-containing immunizations did not increase the risk of any of the ASD outcomes. This study found that children with any ASD conditions and those without ASD had similar ethylmercury exposures at the end of each exposure period from pregnancy to 20 months of age. Exposure to ethylmercury from thimerosal-containing immunizations during pregnancy (prenatally), or as a young child, was not associated with any of the ASD outcomes.
There are dozens of more scientific references if you'd like to investigate. These are not "pharma" researchers. They're scientists who are interested in investigating a controversial question. And they know extremely well that their data, which is published for review, will be heavily scrutinized and criticized, and if they falsify any of it, their careers are over.

Might they be wrong? Sure. That's why research is ongoing. But the people who are dismissing "scientists" almost universally don't understand how science in the academy is supposed to work.
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Old 2018-01-25, 04:54 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by tholub View Post
Nelson (NIH)+Bauman(Boston University) (in Pediatrics, 2003)



CDC (2016)


There are dozens of more scientific references if you'd like to investigate. These are not "pharma" researchers. They're scientists who are interested in investigating a controversial question. And they know extremely well that their data, which is published for review, will be heavily scrutinized and criticized, and if they falsify any of it, their careers are over.

Might they be wrong? Sure. That's why research is ongoing. But the people who are dismissing "scientists" almost universally don't understand how science in the academy is supposed to work.
It is so refreshing seeing someone actually understand what science does and how it works
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Old 2018-01-25, 12:30 PM   #53
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The anti-vaccine movement is led by religious zealots, and gets additional wind in its sails from the ongoing attack on public health spending. In many demographics and areas, the US, in terms of public health, is now a Third World country, so its capitalist overlords are probably more than happy to see a movement calling for an end to vaccination programs, but still, in my layman’s opinion, exposing children and fetuses to mercury does sound a bit questionable. Perhaps, as the CDC has argued, mercury does not cause autism, but exposure to mercury has been known for a very long time to damage various organs, including the brain. That’s where the old English expression “mad as a hatter” comes from.

UC Berkeley is a respected institution, though certainly not unblemished by the pressures of imperialist decay. Its law school faculty includes John Yoo, a notorious torture promoter from the reign of Bush the Second, and the whole UC system is led by chancellor Janet Napolitano, former head of Homeland Security. For university presidents to have backgrounds in law enforcement rather than academia is of course quite common in the US, and it influences all of what goes on at a university, though the scientific fields are somewhat less vulnerable to political coercion than, say, the humanities and social sciences. The capitalists, after all, need people with genuine technical expertise to run their Tuskegee Experiments, to design their drones and missiles, and to come up with medications that will soothe and numb the population, so they are sometimes reluctant to interfere with science, and many scientists do conduct research that is highly beneficial to the entire human race.
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Old 2018-01-25, 06:24 PM   #54
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in my layman’s opinion, exposing children and fetuses to mercury does sound a bit questionable.
Hmm, I just read up on this a bit. Sounds like the amount of mercury contained in vaccines is usually near zero these days, and even back when it was a bit higher, it was not enough to be harmful.

In a country where people have less and less access to medical care and to science education, it is only natural that they will come up with "alternative" theories to explain the world around them, and that the plutocrats who created this situation will seek to nurture the "alternative" theories that benefit the status quo.

The US medical profession invented the eugenics movement and has carried out forced sterilizations and other experiments on prisoners, so it deserves some suspicion, but I like and respect most of the doctors and scientists I have known and worked or partied with, and to me the anti-vaccine movement seems misguided at best.

Anyway, I gotta get some work done so I can ride my uni tonight. Woot woot!
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