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Old 2009-01-16, 08:55 PM   #46
BillyTheMountain
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The UN and the US fund both sides of wars. Evil.
It assures huge profits for the military industrial complex, the real rulers.
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Old 2009-01-16, 11:33 PM   #47
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Strange thing: a poor uneducated Palestinian whose family has been kept locked in a massive open air prison for years by a powerful enemy feels he has no other way of fighting back, so he straps a bomb to himself and determines to take some of the enemy with him. He is a cowardly terrorist.

One can always argue whether the label of terrorist is correct, though if it includes suicide bombing it may be hard for people to think otherwise. Were the Japanese Kamikaze pilots in WWII terrorists? If not, what's the difference?

A highly trained pilot from an educated and comfortable background retaliates by firing millions of pounds worth of missiles from a jet plane way out of range of enemy fire, and he's courageously fighting against terrorism.
I also agree with you that they are both wrong. Both sides are very familiar by now of the peace process, and the many options open to them. I think when this stuff happens it's like they are trying to take shortcuts.

In your example above, who is the poor uneducated guy blowing up? By definition it should be civilians. Should we think him too uneducated to know if this is a bad idea or morally questionable? To me, attaching the word 'cowardly' in front of 'terrorist' is kind of superfluous. Most forms of targeting civilians is cowardly. But leaving it there is a good reminder.

The pilot, on the other hand, is following orders from up his chain of command; orders he may completely disagree with. He knows he's part of the problem but to refuse his orders could have very bad consequences for him as well. Unlike the poor man, he has a government behind him. Or is the poor man following orders from Hamas?

BTW, no, I don't mean to argue in favor of Israel's overkill response. I understand what they're trying to do, but I think there are better, though slower ways.
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Old 2009-01-16, 11:38 PM   #48
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Strange thing: a poor uneducated Palestinian whose family has been kept locked in a massive open air prison for years by a powerful enemy feels he has no other way of fighting back, so he straps a bomb to himself and determines to take some of the enemy with him. He is a cowardly terrorist.

A highly trained pilot from an educated and comfortable background retaliates by firing millions of pounds worth of missiles from a jet plane way out of range of enemy fire, and he's courageously fighting against terrorism.
I also agree with you that they are both wrong. Both sides are very familiar by now of the peace process, and the many options open to them. Maybe part of this is an attempt to take shortcuts.

In your example above, who is the poor uneducated guy blowing up? By definition (terrorist) it should be civilians. Should we think him too uneducated to know if this is a bad idea or morally questionable? To me, attaching the word 'cowardly' in front of 'terrorist' is kind of superfluous. Most forms of targeting civilians is cowardly. But leaving it there is a good reminder.

But then one can always argue the label of terrorist. Generally, suicide bombers are going to get thought of as terrorists but maybe that's not a given? What about the Japanese Kamikaze pilots in WWII? Should they be considered terrorists? And if not, what's the difference?

The Israeli pilot, on the other hand, is following orders from up his chain of command; orders he may completely disagree with. He knows he's part of the problem but to refuse his orders could have very bad consequences for him as well. Unlike the poor man, he has a government behind him. Or is the poor man following orders from Hamas?

BTW, no, I don't mean to argue in favor of Israel's overkill response. I understand what they're trying to do, but I think there are better, though slower ways.
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Old 2009-01-17, 12:34 AM   #49
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Somehow terrorist is associated with "bad" and bomber pilot is associated with "good"

John,

So good you had to say it twice!

If someone drives a truckload of explosives into a military base in New Jersey to blow up US soldiers (no civilians targeted), oddly enough, he'd probably still be considered a terrorist.

Japanese kamikazes were not terrorists because they represented a nation fighting a war. Without a nation, you are by definition a terrorist.

Which is why USA's founding fathers were terrorists. As were the founding fathers of Israel.

"Some of the better-known attacks by Irgun (Israel's founding fathers) were the bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem on 22 July 1946 and the Deir Yassin massacre (accomplished together with the Stern Gang) on 9 April 1948. In the West, Irgun was described as a terrorist organization by The New York Times newspaper,[2][3], The Times (of London) [4][5], the British Broadcasting Corporation [6], the Anglo-American Committee of Enquiry[7], and prominent world and Jewish figures, such as Winston Churchill[8], Hannah Arendt, Albert Einstein, and many others.[9] Irgun attacks prompted a formal declaration from the World Zionist Congress in 1946, which strongly condemned "the shedding of innocent blood as a means of political warfare".[10]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun
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Old 2009-03-21, 03:45 PM   #50
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Israel's "permissive attitude toward the killing of civilians"

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/20/wo...st/20gaza.html

JERUSALEM — In the two months since Israel ended its military assault on Gaza, Palestinians and international rights groups have accused it of excessive force and wanton killing in that operation, but the Israeli military has said it followed high ethical standards and took great care to avoid civilian casualties. Now testimony is emerging from within the ranks of soldiers and officers alleging a permissive attitude toward the killing of civilians and reckless destruction of property that is sure to inflame the domestic and international debate about the army’s conduct in Gaza. On Thursday, the military’s chief advocate general ordered an investigation into a soldier’s account of a sniper killing a woman and her two children who walked too close to a designated no-go area by mistake, and another account of a sharpshooter who killed an elderly woman who came within 100 yards of a commandeered house.

When asked why that elderly woman was killed, a squad commander was quoted as saying: “What’s great about Gaza — you see a person on a path, he doesn’t have to be armed, you can simply shoot him. In our case it was an old woman on whom I did not see any weapon when I looked. The order was to take down the person, this woman, the minute you see her. There are always warnings, there is always the saying, ‘Maybe he’s a terrorist.’ What I felt was, there was a lot of thirst for blood.”

The testimonies by soldiers, leaked to the newspapers Maariv and Haaretz, appeared in a journal published by a military preparatory course at the Oranim Academic College in the northern town of Tivon. The newspapers promised to release more such anecdotal accounts on Friday, without saying how many.

The academy’s director, Dany Zamir, told Israel Radio, “Those were very harsh testimonies about unjustified shooting of civilians and destruction of property that conveyed an atmosphere in which one feels entitled to use unrestricted force against Palestinians."
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Old 2010-06-13, 01:53 PM   #51
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How to deal with things?

By much of the logic here a country is considered evil just because it happen to be stronger. Was America with about 250,000 milion poeple using dispraportionate force to subdue Nazi Germany's 70 million people?

Maybe America was a bully and responsible for crimes against humanity because it Nuked Japan?

Terrorism is the targeting of civilians when you are a stateless individual or group and no formal declaration of war has been declared. Allthough in one of the above examples a suicide bomber driving a truck full of explosives into an army barrack in New Jersey is terrorism.

America fighting England during the war of independece was not terrorism. The colonist had a standing army and formed a provisionary govenment.

Israel fighting England for independence in the 40s is also reffered to as terrorism but the Jews living there had a governing body and It was British soldiers who were stationed in Israel not women and children. Ask how many British women and children were killed by Israelis fighting for freedom against England? And what moral claim did England ever have on Israel?

Israel is not the problem of the moslem world. It is only part of the problem that consists of India, Chechnia, the Phillipines, Nigeria, Bosnia - Hell just about anywhere where the Muslim world comes in contact with their neighbors!

Israels problem is that it is a democratic, safe country to be in with beautiful beaches, tons of great looking, educated and liberated women, and plenty of 5 star hotels and kick ass bars and clubs. Reporters love staying Israel!

When is the last time you heard about the genocide going on in Darfur, Western China and Siri Lanka?

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Old 2010-06-13, 06:02 PM   #52
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Israel is not the problem of the moslem world. It is only part of the problem that consists of India, Chechnia, the Phillipines, Nigeria, Bosnia - Hell just about anywhere where the Muslim world comes in contact with their neighbors!
unicorn there was a time (when "nasserism" existed) where you could not read an arabic newpaper. things have greatly changed.
Since a great number of people in Israel read arabic: they should read "Al Hayat" and may be be less paranoïd about the muslim world.
They will be surprised to learn that , whatever the noisy "street" rethoric, lot of people consider your country as populated by human beings.
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Old 2010-06-14, 10:52 AM   #53
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Fact of the Matter

Israel most "warm" peace agreement is with Jordan. The sad state of truth is that when I drive a car over to Jordan the Jordanian authorities give me temporary Jordanian licence plates so that I will not be Lynched by the "street."

Israel also severely limits entry from Jordan, because like America, England and most of Western Europe there is an Illegal immigration problem. Jordanians are flooding into "the Palestinian territories" and Israel because of the higher quality of life offered! Now does that sound like an aparthied state?

I wish that the Muslim world would get off it's ass and do something with itself. I am sick of living in an Island country. I would love to drive my car into Europe or down into Africa or go visit the Gulf States.

The problem is, and I know from traveling in both Egypt and Jordan, two of the more advanced Arab countries, that as soon as you cross the border you enter a land of apathy, corruption and lack of ambition.

Are the people responsable for the situation? Yes and no. In England and America the people fought for and demanded a less evil form of government.
(Not to mention the French Revolutions!)
It is not easy going against the established Government. Look at what happened to the opposition in Iran! However when you see the pictures on the news of Western flags being burned and the more educated English speakers in such countries openly and proudly stating that they support Osama bin Laden you can't let the people not take some of the blame.

You also can not blame pverty and lack of hope for the peoples actions. Look at how educated the 911 plotters were!

If people learn one thing from my postings here it is that you are not moraly right just becasue you are the underdog!
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Old 2010-06-14, 10:56 AM   #54
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Even when South Africa was 'the apartheid state', we still had an illegal immigration problem.
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Old 2010-06-14, 02:05 PM   #55
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Aparthied

Maybe you did have some illegal imigration problems but could whites and blacks marry each other?

Here in Israel there are many instances of interfaith mairage.

There is also a HUGE percentage of interacial mairages. My wife is semetic and I am caucation.

I think that it is pretty nice how the State of Israel took in refugees from all over the world and gave them a stable and decent standard of living. Many current world renown doctors and scientists and business tycoons from Israel are the offspring of uneducated refugees from third world countries a generation or two back.

There are over a dozen Moslem Members of Kenesset(Israel's Parlament.).

Arabic is an official language of Israel and apears along with English and Hebrew on all road signs, coins, bills and government documents and forms.

Israeli Universities have a high percentage of Moslem Students and there are many Moslem doctors employed in the hospitols.

Jewish people have lived in Israel continuously since the time of Abraham.
I think it would be hard to dispute the Bible as evidence of that.

Many people say the Jews took the land away form the Arabs.
Maybe the Jews have the largest representation in the Kenneseth but Moslems who owned land before Britain left still own their land. It was never taken away from them. There are plenty of Moslem land owners in Israel.

Israel was stolen from the Jews by the Roman Empire who enlaved most of them becasue they would not accept Roman rule and frequently rebeled.

Anyway, I read about stolen art being returned to its rightfull owners on a regular basis.

I really don't understand why people call Israel an aparthied state.

It must really be just an extension of the ageless hatred for the Jews.
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Old 2010-06-14, 02:17 PM   #56
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I was waiting for that final line.
It never takes too long.

Anyway, my point was that you pointed out that Israel can't be an apartheid state because you have an illegal immigration problem.
I'm merely saying that just because people want to get into your country (illegal immigration problem) doesn't mean you're not doing anything wrong (apartheid state).

People wanted to get into apartheid South Africa despite teh fact that they couldn't marry people of other races, couldn't own property, had to sit on seperate benches and ride in different busses.

I'm not defending the apartheid regime, I'm merely pointing out the falw in your argument.
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Old 2010-06-14, 02:57 PM   #57
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It must really be just an extension of the ageless hatred for the Jews.
a good friend is someone who dares criticize you.
for sure it's not easy to have a clear view from abroad but here is a story:
a friend of mine (in fact a parent) wanted to create a small company in Palestine. His goals were business minded: he noticed that Tel-Aviv had a very active diamond market and that in Palestine you could find cheap and qualified engineers. So he set up a business to handle diamond powder. The business was blocked by Israeli authorities! now he could not fathom the reasons: you do not build weapons out of diamond powder! He was very sad: if you want peace may be you should not block peaceful businesses.
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Old 2014-08-05, 03:12 PM   #58
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Time to resurrect this thread?

Four years since the last post on this thread, and the insanity is still going on.
Time to re-open the thread ?

I have not generally been a fan of the British comedian Russell Brand, but since viewing the two videos on the following link, I have revised my opinion of him.
I found his rational if unorthodox approach to the issues refreshing.

Judge for yourselves .....

https://uk.celebrity.yahoo.com/news/...115549441.html
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Old 2014-08-06, 10:16 AM   #59
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must see: "plot for peace" (http://www.plotforpeace.com/)
must read: "getting to yes" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Getting_to_YES)
baseline: always negotiate with the one you consider "the devil"
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Old 2014-08-09, 09:22 PM   #60
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Question


The Black Knight remindes me of hamas actions.
I don't understand this logic. I don't understand, why the people in gaza standing behind hamas.


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