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Old 2019-06-15, 04:09 PM   #16
elpuebloUNIdo
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I posted after inadvertently missing the flame-war between finnspin and OTM. I found a couple quotes, both by Donald Knuth, a computer science guru. I think they apply to this debate:

"Science is what we understand well enough to explain to a computer. Art is everything else we do."

"We should continually be striving to transform every art into a science: in the process, we advance the art."

I am guessing that not everyone agrees with the second quote. My background is in classical music, and I know plenty of musicians who regard analysis as music-wrecking. A professor of mine described two contradictory approaches to musical performance. One, throw a veil over the music. Two, remove the veil.
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Old 2019-06-15, 06:49 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elpuebloUNIdo View Post
Eli Brill demonstrates a free mount about 10 times in the introductory video. Every time, he remains holding onto the seat with his right hand. If I remember correctly, I learned to free mount throwing both hands in the air for balance. I'm curious how many riders, when they were just beginning, held the seat during the entire mount.
I definitely only held the seat to get on, but sent them flailing as soon as I took off. Holding the seat first with one hand came much later and only the last half year did I learn to keep both hands on the seat, balancing with my hips.
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Old 2019-06-15, 11:59 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elpuebloUNIdo View Post
Eli Brill demonstrates a free mount about 10 times in the introductory video. Every time, he remains holding onto the seat with his right hand. If I remember correctly, I learned to free mount throwing both hands in the air for balance. I'm curious how many riders, when they were just beginning, held the seat during the entire mount.
After learning to ride using the back stop method I was a no holding rider using both arms for balance. I struggled when out and about with no backstop.

So ideally I would find a fence and put my right forearm along the top rail while holding the saddle with my left hand. Over time I became lest dependent on the fences and could use a pole until I barely needed to touch anything.

This created a less then ideal situation when I learnt to ride holding on where I mount holding the saddle with my left hand then swap to the right.
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Old 2019-06-16, 01:23 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elpuebloUNIdo View Post
My background is in classical music, and I know plenty of musicians who regard analysis as music-wrecking. A professor of mine described two contradictory approaches to musical performance. One, throw a veil over the music. Two, remove the veil.
I am an entirely self taught singer. I was a late starter in my early forties coming from a background where I had zero talent as a child. I can and do sing lead but my passion is for harmonies. A considerable part of my skills came from transferring my professional scientific knowledge of resonances in electrical circuits to sound.

Early in my progress, my skills really advanced when I noticed a beat between my voice and the guitars despite being quite sure I was on key. Bewildered, I went home and studied musical theory for the first time in my life, learning about the compromises inherent in equal temperament and realising the beat I had heard was due to the tempered fifth on the guitar being a quarter cent flat while I was singing a perfect fifth.

I built a spreadsheet showing the errors in various temperaments and played around with the numbers. It occurred to me that a 32 step scale would be the next temperament and was encouraged when that was confirmed through a Google search.

I also realised that the key to singing in tune was the use of the same principle as tuning in electrical circuits, the phase-locked-loop where detecting errors in the higher harmonics allowed the lower frequencies to be tuned sub-cycle.

I did not practice any of this new found knowledge at all but on the very next of our weekly music jams, my singing ability had skyrocketed. Within a couple of weeks one guitarist commented on how I was uncannily precisely following the bends he was putting on notes. Another time a guitarist said he needed to stand somewhere else in the room because I was "playing his guitar more than he was".

I was not standing there with my mind focused on any of the science but what I had learnt in my brain was being automatically applied to my voice and that knowledge had done anything but ruin my performance.

I also expect it is quite rare though not impossible for a musician to reach advanced levels of performance without knowing at least some musical theory. It certainly would not be the case in elpuebloUNIdo's professor so I find the professor's imputation a little ridiculous.

Sportspeople often remark that one should learn everything they can about the science of the techniques then forget about it while they perform, letting the brain use this knowledge subconsciously.

In most physical endeavours that knowledge is applied and transferred to the motor nervous system by repetition. I believe that it is far more rapid in singing because the the vocal cords are enervated from a branch of the Vagus nerve, one of the seven cranial nerves that come straight out of the brain independently of spinal column. As such, the voice is very deeply connected to the central part of our being and can respond far more rapidly than the peripheral motor nerves and muscles.

My wife has sung since she was a girl and told me that the most valuable advice anyone had ever given her in music was my explanation of tuning the voice with the phase-locked-loop. This is despite the fact that she has no talent for physics at all. Our ability to sing together is built on us both using this technique and the result is compelling.

So please excuse me if I continue to promote the value of scientific analysis in any endeavour, including unicycling. I might not work for everyone but it certainly does for some. Scientific knowledge certainly doesn't wreck ability, though incorrect beliefs certainly can, as is the case of those who assert that the unicycle and rider should be upright.

BTW My wife was watching the 10 km event during the 2016 Australian National Unicycling Championships. She told me afterwards that someone was commentating to spectators about the difference in riding styles and specifically pointed out how little my track weaved. He attributed it to my zero Q cranks but I have no doubt my scientific analysis of riding is more than a little involved too.
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Old 2019-06-16, 05:26 AM   #20
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Gentlemen! Flame war much? You guys need to shake hands and remember that different people learn in different ways.

Being a top rider does not necessarily make one a good teacher. Those are two completely different skills. In my experience, the best teachers are people who had a tough time learning. But that's only part of the equation. Even if it was easy for you to learn to ride, but you know how to explain things, and have taught lots of riders, you can become a great teacher or coach. Success and results help an open-minded coach learn what works best, though this is not always the same for every rider.

I myself am not a great unicycle coach, but I learn from experience when I teach people, and try to keep track of what leads to success. When I tell a rider to sit up straight, it's with the understanding that 99% of them will not fully do it, but it will get them closer to the posture they need. Same for putting weight on the seat. "Try to relax and not use more leg power than you need." This is a goal, but it doesn't happen until the person starts to get confident in their ability to get somewhere. Then they can actually start doing it.

Anyway, the more videos that are out there, but more resources beginners have to help them get started. Even if they don't use the best possible techniques.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elpuebloUNIdo View Post
I'm curious how many riders, when they were just beginning, held the seat during the entire mount.
I learned to ride before seats had handles on them. In those days, I don't thing people held onto the seats as much, in part because of lack of handle (lots of Schwinns in those days), and in part because we were doing everything else not holding on, so we were used to the idea.

Holding onto the seat has many benefits. I think I originally learned it from seeing racers do it. It took me a while to get used to the idea, but eventually I understood that being able to "reinforce" your hold on the cycle gave you more control, and more power. Essential for good acceleration off the starting line, but not really useful when learning to ride. Beginners tend to not trust that the seat will stay in place. This often stems from having the seat lower than it should be, which makes it easier for the rider to rise off of it and have it slip out of position. So if you feel like you need to hold the seat, your seat may be too low.

Thanks to Chris and Eli for making beginner videos. Those are probably more important than most other types, though we hope you still show off your skills from time to time; those are very motivational!
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Old 2019-06-16, 03:18 PM   #21
elpuebloUNIdo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OneTrackMind View Post
I also realised that the key to singing in tune was the use of the same principle as tuning in electrical circuits, the phase-locked-loop where detecting errors in the higher harmonics allowed the lower frequencies to be tuned sub-cycle.
Years ago I was messing around with an electric guitar and a distortion / wah pedal. With distortion, one can play only two simultaneous notes and get a pretty "thick" sound. Under the right circumstances, I could hear very strong difference (sub) tones. It only took a mild amount of distortion to make it happen, but the strength of the difference tones relied on the wah pedal being in a particular position. Moving the wah to a certain position allows the amplitude of the two vibrating strings to be matched. The resonance peak of the movable-band-pass-filter (wah) is placed at a frequency between the frequencies of the two strings, allowing the attenuation on either side of the peak to match the amplitudes of the two tones. Duh, sorry for my not-totally scientific explanation. Without matching amplitudes, the difference tones will not happen, or they will be weak.

Once I got the strong difference tone, I could bend one of the strings and listen to the resulting change in the difference tone. In the process of bending a string, the difference tone could be brought from an audible range all the way down to a sub-audible bunch of beats. Needless to say, this was pretty cool! It became very clear when I was playing in tune, because the difference tone formed "root" of the chord formed by the two strings. I used to occasionally hear, in orchestra, difference tones produced by two clarinets playing in tune. Over time, however, I heard it less and less. This is because, on average, orchestral clarinetists nowadays play with "darker" sounds, sounds lacking higher overtones. Adding harmonic distortion to my guitar sound strengthened the difference tones. I surmised that a superior method of tuning was to listen for these difference tones (which in an acoustic situation are pretty weak and mostly create a subtle change in the texture of the sound). Not sure if this relates to your own experience singing in tune.

Regarding the "veil" comment, I was not very clear. My professor felt that some musicians threw a veil over the music, obscuring it. In fact, we call a "dark" sound "covered", which is the meaning of obscure. Taking the veil off the music is the opposite of obscuring it. There are all kinds of examples of music being obscured. Auditorium acoustics, for example. People start associating classical music with reverb, but that starts to obscure a lot of the detail of the music. They don't know what they're missing, but that's okay because reverb is so ingrained into their classical music aesthetic. Reverb also hides inaccuracies in the ensemble. So, my professor was saying we should keep things as real as possible.

Thread-jacking complete!!!
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Old 2019-06-16, 08:09 PM   #22
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I have been practicing for over a year now and I still consider myself a beginner. For me, this type of video tutorials mainly means inspiration and both videos are beautifully made. The problem I have with almost all of these videos is that they mainly show how well the maker masters the skills and not the troubles that a beginner experiences. A number of things I see in the two videos are impossible for me, for example how Chris shows in his video from the second minute on how he gets on with the pedals horizontal and a hand against the wall.
At this moment I am practicing freemounting. No video seems to help me with that. It seems that the only way is to try it endlessly in the hope that I will one day succeed.
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Old 2019-06-17, 06:57 AM   #23
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Despite whether the unicycle leaning forwards or backwards is correct, most learners will associate the blue line moving forward with them having to lean forward to do it. So most likely a learner attempting to lean the unicycle forward will get their body in the position that is needed (they wont realise the unicycle i still technically leaning backwards however as they cant see themselves side on)


And OneTrackMind if you actually approached the videos without acting like a dissmissive know-it-all dickhead FinnSpinn wouldn't have responded so bluntly to you.

You giving your resume of all your skills and knowledge doesn't really impress, it is the internet equivalent of yelling "DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM!?" when getting in an argument with someone.

People learn from many different cues. I agree with a reasonable portion of the video and many riders on this forum have taught a huge number of riders with many different cues.
If you ever do an actual study where you teach 15 riders Eli/Chris' way and 15 riders your way, and then show that your cues are the best cues that ever existed, THEN I will hands down admit that it is the best method for the average rider.
Until then you are just a person putting shit on other people who have done something constructive over the internet while telling everyone that you alone are smart enough to know the real methods.
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Old 2019-06-17, 04:23 PM   #24
elpuebloUNIdo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinoclean View Post
And OneTrackMind if you actually approached the videos without acting like a dissmissive know-it-all dickhead FinnSpinn wouldn't have responded so bluntly to you.
I would not characterize OneTrackMind's comments as dismissive. The comments below, however, fit my definition of dismissive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by finnspin View Post
Oh,the obligatory onetrackmind has a better method comment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrfixit View Post
zzzzzzzzzzz......
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinoclean View Post
Until then you are just a person putting shit on other people who have done something constructive over the internet while telling everyone that you alone are smart enough to know the real methods.
This last quote disturbs me. Being critical of someone's instructional video is not the same as disrespecting them, IMHO. In our current media environment, it seems the two have been conflated. Whatever we produce is an extension of ourselves and must be respected?

Dismissive means you've found a reason to disqualify yourself from even thinking about another point of view. OneTrackMind was not dismissing the instructional videos. He studied them and found things he disagreed with.
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Old 2019-06-17, 08:36 PM   #25
finnspin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elpuebloUNIdo View Post
I would not characterize OneTrackMind's comments as dismissive. The comments below, however, fit my definition of dismissive.
[...]
Dismissive means you've found a reason to disqualify yourself from even thinking about another point of view. OneTrackMind was not dismissing the instructional videos. He studied them and found things he disagreed with.
I'll show you what I find dismissive, or probably better worded: "not giving different methods than his own any chance" with the original comment. It's between the lines, so I'll give the benefit of the doubt that it may not have been intended. But either way, this is what I read:

Quote:
Highly skilled unicyclists rarely make good teachers because their skills are so far removed from those of a novice. They don't remember how hard it was to learn.
In a different discussion, this is a fair statement. In this context however, the only purpose of mentioning it, I can see, is to preface the comment with the suggestion that the videos are doomed to be bad from the start.

Quote:
Eli's blue line is just plain wrong. Follow that advice to fall off every time, as he does himself around 1:30
At 1:45 he does what actually needs to be done and doesn't fall off. The unicycle needs to be leaning backwards. I have found that pointing out this geometrical prerogative to the novice is by far the most important thing they need to know.
Pointing out staged falls as evidence isn't really a good point, isn't it? Anyway, I guess Onetrackmind was focussed on the fact that the body and wheel aren't a straight line, but missing the point Eli wanted to make. The inverted pendulum falling forward and being held upright by the base beeing accelerated is the forward-backward equivalent of "steering the wheel under the fall", which I'm pretty sure no one here denies is one way of staying on a unicycle.
Quote:
Neither Eli nor Chris explain this at all but at least Chris does say to lean slightly forward from the hips and don't hunch. This posture goes hand in hand with leaning the unicycle backwards, keeping the centre of gravity above the contact point.
This is fair as a statement. Still makes the fact Chris explained essentially the same position as Onetrackmind is describing as "leaning the unicycle backwards" in a different way sound negative:
Quote:
[...] Eli [...] [doesn't]explain this at all[.] [...] Chris does say to lean slightly forward from the hips and don't hunch. This posture goes hand in hand with leaning the unicycle backwards, keeping the centre of gravity above the contact point.
Would be less negative. I'm not expecting international diplomacy levels of being aware of the "inbetween the lines" in internet comments (I certainly don't have those either.), but I think the difference in underlying messages between the original and my rewording is pretty clear.
Quote:
People who learn quickly despite the misguided advice are those who observe rather than listen and notice their teacher's uni is leaning back. Those who heed the common suggestion to make their back an extension of the uni will never learn until they forget that advice. At least Eli and Chris avoided this rubbish.
Bringing up wrong advice not mentioned in the videos, to then say: "The only good thing is they didn't say this wrong thing too." Just adding more negativity to the comment, without it actually being a fault with the video.
Quote:
Both of them also advise to put all the weight on the seat right from the start. This is something to aspire to but it can only be achieved once the rider is able to get the wheel more or less under them. Otherwise the downward force on the unbalanced uni will simply pop it out from under the rider.
The initial attempts are better with all the weight on the pedals and gripping the nose of the saddle between the thighs so the machine is forced to stay in more or less the right place. As soon as they manage a couple of revolutions, tell them to try to put their weight on the seat but don't obsess about it.
As I said, this is likely a difference between starting with support on a wall, and "launching into space". But the bias against a different learning method than his, made him jump to the conclusion that what doesn't work in one method, won't work in the other way either.

Especially the first section I quoted got me to say this, out of frustration:
Quote:
Oh,the obligatory onetrackmind has a better method comment.
Which, in hindsight, I shouldn't have said. Onetrackmind made a similar comment on Facebook, and was (as far as I saw it) treated respectfully and with interest in his method. Not "Wow, your method is so great I will stop everything I developed, and now do what you do", but fair, and with further explanation of why people choose different methods, and the honest encouragement to make a video with his method too.

Through the facebook comments, I happen to know that Onetrackmind knows of Chris's extensive teaching experience. I think everyone who tought more than 5 people will know, that through teaching, you'll see people struggling with many different parts of the skill that you didn't even know could be an issue. So suggesting Chris is so far removed from learning to ride he doesn't know the difficulties of a beginner is just plainly unfair in my eyes.

It's not someone saying and pointing out things they don't agree with that I have an issue with. I absolutely accept the fact that Onetrackmind and I will probably both offer different methods to beginners probably forever. We both had very good experiences with our ways, and seen bad with others. I likely wouldn't have said anything if there wasn't the first paragraph of the comment.



Disclaimer for people that will try and interpret things I didn't want to say:

No, I don't think Chris or Eli are the greatest unicycle teachers in the world.

No, I'm not trying to find every fault in Onetrackminds comment I can come up with in this reply. I'm trying to explain what frustrated me so much about it, it made me say things I shouldn't have.
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Old 2019-06-17, 09:09 PM   #26
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Who needs a learning method anyway?

Certainly not this dude
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Old 2019-06-18, 04:48 AM   #27
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Certainly not this dude
Okay everybody, raise your hands if you kind of hate Greg, the guy in the video. Yeah Greg, you're ruining it for everybody that spent days, weeks and months learning! BOOOOOOOOO!

Okay not really. (Just on the inside). Good on ya Greg! Clearly you have a lot of natural body awareness talents, and/or experience with other balance sports. I wonder what else he does? Anyway, it also looks like being tall helps, perhaps. He doesn't have to bend his legs as much, which may make it easier to make the pedals go where he wants without them getting away from him.

I think Greg is a cyclist of some sort. His seat never twisted, which means he has definitely used a quick-release before. NOBODY gets that right on the first try. And his balance is really solid.

He will crush people who think they're supposed to be able to do it in a few minutes!!
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Old 2019-06-18, 06:12 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by johnfoss View Post
Okay everybody, raise your hands if you kind of hate Greg, the guy in the video. Yeah Greg, you're ruining it for everybody that spent days, weeks and months learning! BOOOOOOOOO!

Okay not really. (Just on the inside). Good on ya Greg! Clearly you have a lot of natural body awareness talents, and/or experience with other balance sports. I wonder what else he does? Anyway, it also looks like being tall helps, perhaps. He doesn't have to bend his legs as much, which may make it easier to make the pedals go where he wants without them getting away from him.

I think Greg is a cyclist of some sort. His seat never twisted, which means he has definitely used a quick-release before. NOBODY gets that right on the first try. And his balance is really solid.

He will crush people who think they're supposed to be able to do it in a few minutes!!
No, not what I would call a beginner. He could already ride a bike on one wheel not to mention jumps and flips and stuff.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6S20HhRLaE
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Old 2019-06-18, 01:18 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by johnfoss View Post
I think Greg is a cyclist of some sort.
The shape of his calf muscles attest to that. He also has a natural instinct.

Notice how the uni popped out from under him at first. This is the first thing the beginner needs to stop happening. Avoid it by putting most of the weight on the pedals. Gripping the saddle between the thighs can help some but this guy doesn't need to.

Then he got basic control with weight on the pedals until he could keep the wheel in more or less in the right place. Once he achieved a couple of turns he focused on getting his weight on the seat as he said.

Right from the beginning he gets away from supports and rides into the open. (At the end of the video, his cousin clings to pole and fails.)

He is leaning the uni backwards a lot. However we don't see the uni clearly from the side until he is out on the road. Take a look how far it is leaning back at around 7:15. Much more than an accomplished unicyclist whose more precise wheel positioning allows them to be closer to upright where the uni is also far more responsive.

His learning techniques are exactly what I have seen and encouraged in my rapid learners. I promise that the geometry above all else is the key to high speed learning.

It is also exactly what experienced riders do when we need to increase stability on encountering rough terrain. Lean the uni back and put weight on the pedals. It makes the uni a lot more forgiving of imprecision.
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Old 2019-06-18, 02:48 PM   #30
elpuebloUNIdo
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Okay everybody, raise your hands if you kind of hate Greg, the guy in the video.
LOL! What really sickened me was how fast he learned to free mount. It appeared he was using a 6:00 / 12:00 mount. His seat was low enough for him to be able to mount in this position. Greg looked pretty tall, and I wouldn't be surprised if the length on the seat post was already at its max.
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