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Old 2006-01-22, 12:54 AM   #1
the_last_spoonbender
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What Do Prostitutes Really Want???

Heres a riddle I just cant solve.
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Old 2006-01-22, 01:25 AM   #2
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what do any of us really want
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Old 2006-01-22, 01:29 AM   #3
harper
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Money.
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Old 2006-01-22, 01:59 AM   #4
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a 180/360+full rev backward crankflip off uh somethin'(i suppose thats a hickflip but i dont say that word so whatever)

the girl i like to go out with me

world peace

in that order

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Old 2006-01-22, 03:18 AM   #5
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Wow, I can't believe someone is using my word....HICKFLIP. Ha thats funny. KH.
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Old 2006-01-22, 12:16 PM   #6
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The freedom to choose?

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Old 2006-01-22, 01:29 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by cathwood
The freedom to choose?

Cathy
We attribute freedom to an individual (and ourselves) when the contingencies which guide the behavior is not apparent to us. --BF Skinner, To Freedom Condemned

Billy
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Old 2006-01-22, 01:36 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by BillyTheMountain
We attribute freedom to an individual (and ourselves) when the contingencies which guide the behavior is not apparent to us. --BF Skinner, To Freedom Condemned

Billy
Doesn't mean it's necessarily so though.

Cathy
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Old 2006-01-22, 03:54 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by cathwood
Doesn't mean it's necessarily so though.

Cathy
Exactly!!!

Even further, Skinner seems to be suggesting (unless I'm going too far) that freedom does not truly exist, it's just something we incorrectly attribute to people. Our behavior is controlled by our reinforcement history, as is our perception of options.

Billy
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Old 2006-01-22, 07:30 PM   #10
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Prostitutes really want Chuck Norris, but knowing they could not possibly handle mannliness on that order of magnitude, they try to make it up in quantity over quality, but know that there are not enough men on the planet.
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Old 2006-01-22, 08:17 PM   #11
Mikefule
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyTheMountain
Even further, Skinner seems to be suggesting (unless I'm going too far) that freedom does not truly exist, it's just something we incorrectly attribute to people. Our behavior is controlled by our reinforcement history, as is our perception of options.
I've not read that particular book, but the argument is a familiar one.

It's a simple variation on the familiar free willredestination debate.

It is important to separate "cause" from "purpose". A purpose may be a type of cause, or it might only be a way that we perceive a set of sub-causes. Purpose is associated with perception; cause is associated with events following in sequence.

So, our actions are either:

Totally caused (by events, genetics, reinforcement history, limited options, etc.) This is predestination (but without necessarily imply "destiny" in any metaphysical sense.)

Not totally caused - although no one could reasonably dispute that there is a large element of causation. The bit left over (if there is one) would be "free will".

The argument for "totally caused" is fairly simple. Working backwards, my decision to act now now is based on the options presented to me by external circumstances, and my assessment of those circumstances - an assessment which arises purely from my personality. My personality is the result of previous decisions, experiences, and my temperament, and my temperament is the result of my genetic heritage. By the time you are old enough able to "make decisions", you have already "been given" your genetic heritage, your base temperament, an environment, and some experiences. If we could know every detail up to the present, then we could predict every future event. This is of course, totally untestable.

Aha, but then we see Burridan's ass. (Ooer, no, stoppit! etc. ) Burridan did the thought experiment of placing a donkey equidistant between two identical bales of hay. If the hay bales were perfectly identical, and the donkey were to be exactly half way between them, then the donkey would starve, unable to choose one bale or the other.

But of course, the donkey would not really starve. It would choose a bale.

It follows that the bales were not identical (one fresher or sweeter smelling?); or that the donkey was slightly closer to one than the other; or that there were other external factors (wind direction?); or that the donkey had a predisposition to turn to the left or the right in such circumstances - a predisposition arising from something in its genetic or historical "make up".

Or, if all of these things were perfect, with no difference between the bales, no difference in the distance, no external factors, and no "predisposition", then the donkey must have made its decision as a result of "free will", right?

Except that if all the variables had been perfectly eliminated or balanced (perfectly: this is a thought experiment, remember) then the donkey would have no criteria on which to base its alleged free will decision, so its decision would be random.

Free will then becomes this: that when there are no external data on which to base a decision, and no relevant internal predispositions that are the result of prior causes, then the entity with free will can make a purely random decision.

Hmmmm.

Of course, this is pure speculation because none of this is testable. It is therefore not scientific. But it does give us an insight into the nature of the free willredestination debate. Either there are reasons why we choose X instead of Y, or the decision is random. If there are reasons, and we count "reasons" as including our personalities, which are the result of prior reasons, ad infinitum, then the decision is in a sense predetermined.

However, in real life we can never know all of the facts. We still have to go through the process of believing that we agonise over each decision, and weigh the pros and cons. We never know what we are going to decide until the moment that we decide it. It feels like we have free will.

In fact, if we choose to believe in predestination, we have no choice but to believe that we freely decided to do so.

No donkeys (or asses) were hurt in the making of this post.
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Old 2006-01-22, 08:50 PM   #12
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Mikefule:

You GO, boy!!

Billy
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Old 2006-01-22, 09:47 PM   #13
Mikefule
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Hmmm. How'd that happen? Why did a appear in place of a "p"?


Well, blow me, I've just discovered that if you type a colon followed by a p then the forum automatically puts a there.

Gasp! This thread is becoming all asses and colons.
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Old 2006-01-23, 01:25 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikefule
Hmmm. How'd that happen? Why did a appear in place of a "p"?
One of the numerous evils of emoticons. Were they but alive so that I could torture them.
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Old 2006-01-23, 07:36 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harper
One of the numerous evils of emoticons. Were they but alive so that I could torture them.

I too, hate emoticons... and those damm abreviations... damm kids.
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