We got universal health care!

[saskatchewanian]

It's worked since 1946 in Saskatchewan, that backwards socialist province north of North Dakota and Montana...

[Gilby]

Originally Posted by feel the light

health care is not shoppable

It is. Even with one hospital nearby it is. When you choose to live in a particular location, your shopping for a location would consider the costs and benefits of that location, so if this was important to you, then you would take higher consideration of the emergency or health care services available there. In a free market, there would also be free entry into the market which would allow competitor(s) to come in if the services in that area are not as good as they can be. You can also form groups that advocate, negotiate, etc.

[wobbling bear]

Originally Posted by johnfoss

. But I have come to see that whenever government tries to do big things, people/corporations clamber to take advantage, overcharge, mismanage, screw up and just plain steal. Without strict, powerful oversight, this seems to be the inevitable result. And not just for governments. As my company is doing tenant improvements to the building we will move into, the same thing keeps trying to happen there. If we didn't keep paying attention, we would be taken to the cleaners over an over.

I completely agree: we do not focus on the right thing when moaning about "government" actions. The big problem is efficient management and I can assure you that mismanagement happens everywhere at every level in any human group. Supposing that a "private" company will manage better than a government is just prejudice (having worked both in Government and big companies I assure you that in both cases you can find good and bad management) : we lose the big goal which is how to regulate efficiently services provided for the common good. This is an extremely complex matter where simplistic arguments do not fit.

[Nurse Ben]

n a free society you would be free to make a living and voluntarily pay into whatever programs you desire! Just don't force others to pay for these programs you think they need, and, if they choose to do so, instead allow them to voluntarily pay for any programs they want to participate in or fund.

Gilby, you better never get so sick that you can't care for yourself.

[Gilby]

Originally Posted by Nurse Ben

Gilby, you better never get so sick that you can't care for yourself.

I'm sorry, I don't understand. How exactly is my voluntary choice in getting health insurance going to be a problem for me? How would forcing me into some other program which I have little, if any choices about, be better for me if I were to get sick?

[Nurse Ben]

Gilby,

Think about life, the things that can happen in life, you are not unique in your frailty, so you too can suffer a change of circumstances.

Are you so sure in your politics that you would rather die than accept state assistance? I truly doubt that you'd go so far.

Plainly put, if you don't have insurance and need medical care, we (the insured) pay for your care.

The health care requirement takes away your choice to "steal my money", by getting health care without having to pay for insurance.

This is the argument in a nutshell:

What should society provide for those who can't provide for themselves.

What I find really ironic in this discussion is the negative persona hung around the necks of health care providers. Do you really think that we got into health care for the money? Seriously, as if there aren't easier jobs that pay better and are less stressful. And of course, not a single one of us does their job to "help others", gawd forbid we'd be altruistic like that, nah, never happened.

[MuniAddict]

Originally Posted by Nurse Ben

What should GOVERNMENT provide for those who can't provide for themselves.

Already have programs for that. IT"S CALLED MEDICAID/WELFARE.

[JJuggle]

Doctor describes removing 51-pound tumor from a New Jersey woman and says it was a third of her weight

“I wasn’t in pain, but I was really uncomfortable,” she said. “But I couldn’t go to the doctor right away because I was going to be 65 in June and had to wait for the Medicare to kick in.”

[MuniAddict]

Medicare and medicaid are TWO different things. People served by Medicaid are U.S. citizens or legal permanent residents, including low-income adults, their children, and people with certain disabilities.

[Gilby]

Originally Posted by Nurse Ben

Are you so sure in your politics that you would rather die than accept state assistance? I truly doubt that you'd go so far.

Given that I am forced to pay more into the government than I will ever get from it, and that they outlaw alternatives or make it hard to otherwise compete with them, I have no problem taking as much as I can from them.

Originally Posted by Nurse Ben

Plainly put, if you don't have insurance and need medical care, we (the insured) pay for your care.

The health care requirement takes away your choice to "steal my money", by getting health care without having to pay for insurance.

That's a government created problem, and no, "universal heath care" or any government health care, doesn't take away theft from the equation.

Originally Posted by Nurse Ben

This is the argument in a nutshell:

What should society provide for those who can't provide for themselves.

Let's not equate society with government. Just because a government doesn't have a program in which they steal from one person to give to another, doesn't mean that needs of those who can't provide for themselves would not be met. I believe that people are compassionate and want to better the society they live in. Each individual in a society has a different perspective of the needs of their society and how they can help their society. People in general are charitable with their own resources, and they do it voluntarily. It's not compassionate to point guns at people and lock them up in cages if they refuse to comply with the government's programs, which is ultimately what government does. If you don't think it's right to go to your neighbors with guns drawn to force them to pay for John Doe's needs, then don't ask your government to do that for you. You'd be better off going to your neighbors and telling them about a wonderful local charity that is doing great things and asking them to volunteer or donate to that organization.

[wobbling bear]

Originally Posted by Gilby

. You'd be better off going to your neighbors and telling them about a wonderful local charity that is doing great things and asking them to volunteer or donate to that organization.

that was THE solution in the 19th century: it's called "bourgeois charity". So you can claim to clean your soul ....
In my culture giving to a charity is never a public act (we are not fond of hypocrits) and does not mean we have no other social responsibility.

[BillyTheMountain]

ObamaCare = RomneyCare in Massachusetts, a system that works very well.

You can still buy any health insurance plan you want, the choice is yours!

[Nurse Ben]

that was THE solution in the 19th century: it's called "bourgeois charity". So you can claim to clean your soul ....
In my culture giving to a charity is never a public act (we are not fond of hypocrits) and does not mean we have no other social responsibility.

Same here, we had religious groups and private citizens taking care of those who couldn't care for themselves. It was so successful that we ended up adding a couple little programs: The New Deal

Funny how folks refuse to look at our failures in the past, as if being one of the three wise monkeys will make it all okay.

Gilby,

Show me the math that supports what you say: "Given that I am forced to pay more into the government than I will ever get from it".

I.E. all the social, economic, and political programs that have benefitted you from the time of your conception to the expected time of death, don't forget about food, gas, education, employment, and infrastructure subsidies, as well as protection (fire, police, military, FDA, etc...).

[Young at heart]

And of course, all the politicians complaining about this have paid health care thru the government.

[BillyTheMountain]

Originally Posted by Gilby

Given that I am forced to pay more into the government than I will ever get from it

You probably benefit more from taxes than someone receiving welfare and medicaid.

You have more to protect than someone on welfare, and the government protects you and your property.

You rely more on the nation's infrastructure, and the government builds and supports much of it and protects it.

If you're invested in larger corporations, or in a 401K or some retirement fund that invests in corporations, the government protects those corporations from forces that might want to socialize them.

At your level, the few $ in taxes you pay protect FAR more, a worthwhile benefit. But then some remain blind to the benefits they receive from the government, and there is no opening their eyes.