Second Amendment and the right to keep and bear arms

[BillyTheMountain]

Originally Posted by nick

How do you explain the notoriously bad manners of the Crips and the Bloods?

They may take that comment as bad manners on YOUR part ....

[BillyTheMountain]

Originally Posted by nick

if you really want to protect your right to own a gun (or several), you probably want to be promoting responsible gun ownership.

Not at all. Gun owners in the USA have been incredible irresponsible for decades, and their rights only get expanded.

I wonder how much of your gun-buying dollar goes directly to an NRA fund to buy senators and congressman?

How much cheaper guns could be if the industry did not have to spend so much money keeping themselves legal?

[maestro8]

Originally Posted by BillyTheMountain

Gun owners in the USA have been incredible irresponsible for decades

Which gun owners have been responsible?

Oh, you're lumping ALL gun owners together?

Because... it promotes your agenda? It certainly defies logic. Then again, logic has never been your forte.

[BillyTheMountain]

Gun Deaths - International Comparisons
Gun deaths per 100,000 population (for the year indicated):

.......................Homicide..... Suicide..... Other (inc Accident)

USA (2001) .........3.98.......... 5.92............... 0.36
Italy (1997)..........0.81..........1.1...............0.07
Switzerland (1998)0.50 ..........5.8..............0.10
Canada (2002) 0.4 2.0 0.04
Finland (2003) 0.35 4.45 0.10
Australia (2001) 0.24 1.34 0.10
France (2001) 0.21 3.4 0.49
England/Wales (2002)0.15 0.2 0.03
Scotland (2002) 0.06 0.2 0.02
Japan (2002) 0.02 0.04 0
Data taken from Cukier and Sidel (2006) The Global Gun Epidemic. Praeger Security International. Westport.

[Gilby]

Originally Posted by BillyTheMountain

Gun Deaths - International Comparisons
Gun deaths per 100,000 population (for the year indicated):

.......................Homicide..... Suicide..... Other (inc Accident)

USA (2001) .........3.98.......... 5.92............... 0.36
Italy (1997)..........0.81..........1.1...............0.07
Switzerland (1998)0.50 ..........5.8..............0.10
Canada (2002) 0.4 2.0 0.04
Finland (2003) 0.35 4.45 0.10
Australia (2001) 0.24 1.34 0.10
France (2001) 0.21 3.4 0.49
England/Wales (2002)0.15 0.2 0.03
Scotland (2002) 0.06 0.2 0.02
Japan (2002) 0.02 0.04 0
Data taken from Cukier and Sidel (2006) The Global Gun Epidemic. Praeger Security International. Westport.

Either Americans are the only ones that know guns are most efficient for use in homicides and suicides, or everyone else have discovered better tools/ways to do these. At least that's what I can extrapolate from that data when I fill the holes in with whatever I want to like you did. In other words, your data is meaningless without more facts.

[Zzagg]

Originally Posted by Gilby

Either Americans are the only ones that know guns are most efficient for use in homicides and suicides, or everyone else have discovered better tools/ways to do these. At least that's what I can extrapolate from that data when I fill the holes in with whatever I want to like you did. In other words, your data is meaningless without more facts.

Come on Gilby, be honnest and use a very tiny part of your skills to search for a little backup.
I found this.
2001 (to match with Billy's data):
USA: 5.6 intentional homicides per 100,000 pop.
France (one of the worst rate of western europe): 1.72

Of course that doesn't prove that guns are the cause of such insecurity, but please respect our dumbness: we (western european counties) are no murder geniuses and at the same time, we're smart enough to figure out what efficiency means.

[wobbling bear]

Originally Posted by Zzagg

we (western european counties) are no murder geniuses and at the same time, we're smart enough to figure out what efficiency means.

c'mon zzzagg you know that French are notorious wimps that do not know anything about real manlyness!

[maestro8]

Originally Posted by Zzagg

Of course that doesn't prove that guns are the cause of such insecurity

Then put the argument to rest. You're making an apples to oranges comparison. You can't put the US side-by-side to some small European country and expect to make meaningful comparisons. If you're smart enough to figure out efficiency, you should be smart enough to recognize this.

Furthermore, just looking at numbers ignores underlying issues that may be totally unrelated to guns: drugs, crime, gangs, racism, homophobia, religious intolerance, homelessness, mental illness, etc.

Originally Posted by wobbling bear

c'mon zzzagg you know that French are notorious wimps that do not know anything about real manlyness!

I LOLled!

[MuniAddict]

[johnfoss]

That's the grenade-launching machine gun with LED round-countdown display, as seen in the movie Aliens (1986).

[Zzagg]

Originally Posted by maestro8

You're making an apples to oranges comparison. You can't put the US side-by-side to some small European country and expect to make meaningful comparisons.

You mean that ANY international stat mentioning the US is irrelevant, then? Wich country or region is big enough to deserve the right of being compared with th US?

Originally Posted by maestro8

If you're smart enough to figure out efficiency, you should be smart enough to recognize this.

oooOOOoooOOO you pwned me so hard I almost forgot to put sugar in my coffee.
Thanks for assuming I'm smart, any way.

Originally Posted by maestro8

Furthermore, just looking at numbers ignores underlying issues that may be totally unrelated to guns: drugs, crime, gangs, racism, homophobia, religious intolerance, homelessness, mental illness, etc.

didn't I say "Of course that doesn't prove that guns are the cause of such insecurity"?

Now please just take my last post for what it was: just catching Gilby red handed for dishonnest statements and showing that you guys living on the orange are much more likely to be murdered than us guys living on the apple. period.

[wobbling bear]

ah yes different histories leads to different conditions.
The NRA says "when guns are outlawed, only outlaws have guns"
our culture is coherent with this assertion: if you carry a gun then you are an outlaw.
Well for sure in other contexts this is felt as "a restriction to liberty" or as "inefficient" . it is argued that if a previously law-abiding citizen suddenly goes bonkers then if everyone has a gun he will be stopped sooner
I just scratch my head with extensions of this principle: after all we shall not be prejudiced if someone carries a gun; he/she is not necessarily going to commit a crime. So if someone carries dynamite sticks under his vest that could be to frighten rabbits;we shall carry no prejudice: there is no reason to stop him until he timothy-Mc-Veighs a whole building.

[wobbling bear]

Originally Posted by maestro8

If you're smart enough to figure out efficiency,

I lived in a country where corruption was rife: as I refused to bay a bribe the guy smiled and said "you're not going to change the country: the system works that way, without friendly gifts nothing will work anymore"

[Gilby]

Originally Posted by Gilby

At least that's what I can extrapolate from that data when I fill the holes in with whatever I want to like you did. In other words, your data is meaningless without more facts.

Originally Posted by Zzagg

Now please just take my last post for what it was: just catching Gilby red handed for dishonnest statements and showing that you guys living on the orange are much more likely to be murdered than us guys living on the apple. period.

I think you missed my point. You're trying to make the same point against my example, which I made obviously invalid so as to make a point against BTM.

Instead of looking at the availability of a tool or legality of owning a tool that is used for homicides and linking that to being the cause of homicides, you need more data and focus on the actual cause of the higher rate of homicides. People don't kill just because they have a gun. There is some other reason for it.

[wobbling bear]

Originally Posted by Gilby

People don't kill just because they have a gun. There is some other reason for it.

for sure: governments that have excessive powers do not abuse their power just because they can. There are some other reasons for it ......