What does your religion mean to you?

[peleschramm]

Originally Posted by BillyTheMountain

Pele,

Nicely executed.

Billy

Billy,

Thanks.

Pele

Originally Posted by MorseCode

...

Haha, is your name AJ by chance? You sound exactly like a coworker of mine called AJ, and I mean EXACTLY.

Any way, I would like to thank you for really going into depth on this one. If you would like to argue your points (I noticed that you phrased a lot of things in a sort of debating/challenging manner, though that might just be me), I would like to encourage you to not use this thread, but resurrect a religious debate thread instead. It seems like almost all threads about religion so far had turned into big debates, and this one is not about arguing that you are right, it's meant for saying what you believe and what it means to you. I would not like this one to end up in a heated argument, as then I fear that people would feel too intimidated to answer the original questions, or get too caught up in the debate to pay any attention to the original questions. I love well-thought out religious debates (as long as they do really come with logical assertions and not just a bunch of people arguing with no thought or knowledge), but that's not for here. So yeah, if you would like, post what you said in the thread that I had linked.


Edit: Also, you hadn't said this directly, but I assume that you interpret the bible in a completely literal manner?

[BillyTheMountain]

John,

Please look at a response to your post here:
http://www.unicyclist.com/forums/sho...=49106&page=36

Billy

PS Is Uni Uni mean Unitarian Universalist?

[wobbling bear]

1. What religion would you consider yourself?
Atheist (I often say I am a "sufi atheist')

2. What do you believe in regards to religious beliefs?
no such beliefs for myself but interested in religious beliefs of others.

3. Now that that has been said, what does your religion really mean to you?
well I am like everybody else : I sometime need help. but I don't expect it to come from supernatural beliefs. no metaphysical angst.

4. How has your religion affected you, and how do you think it will affect you in the future? Has it helped? Has it harmed? How so? Just things of that nature.
though death of others affect me much, I am unconcerned by mine (mind you: I stick to life but not concerned by an after-death).
moral behaviour is extremely important to me but I don't proselitize and tend not to judge others harshly.


5. What other people that you know regard religion in the same, or a very similar manner? This includes also what your beliefs are, not only how you feel about religion. Does your family regard religion as you do? Do your friends? Does your pastor? Stuff like that.
I am in a rather agnostic/atheist environment : dominant part of the local culture. When invited to a religious wedding or funeral I sing with others (few people sing in fact!), I can pretend to be a catholic, a muslim, a jew or an adorator of Bacchus without being too much hypocritical (for sure I loathe sects)

6. What had caused you to believe/behave/feel/etc. in the ways that you had described above? What brought you to these conclusions?
cultural influence (the air I breathe, the food I eat is not impregned by religion)

[phlegm]

1. Christian.

2. I've come to realize that my Christian belief mostly, if not entirely, hinges upon whom I believe Jesus was. I believe people wrote about Jesus because they experienced something they deemed worth writing about. So, in part, I consider Christianity an exploration and elucidation of why Jesus is/was important. From a perspective of logical necessity within the Biblical narrative, Jesus is important because he was the fulfillment of the historical faith described in the Old Testament. On a social level, Jesus is important because he is the central example of love. On a religious level, Jesus is important because he points to an ultimate future when God will, in faith, be fully revealed.

I believe the Bible is accurate enough and clear enough to convey its meanings (in relation to us). There will always be conspiracy theorists to support any conspiracy one could imagine, but I haven't seen any solid evidence to suggest that the authors intended to mislead us with what they wrote or that they were somehow less qualified to perceive reality than we are with our present perspectives.

Also, saying that parts of the Bible should not be read literally does not imply that they are inaccurate or false. The field of Biblical exegesis is complex, and Bible scholars put forth great effort to determine how a passage should be read. That is to say, there are literary and historical methodologies for determining how to read a given passage in the Bible--while they are not exact science, they are also not purely arbitrary.

In short summary, the Biblical narrative begins with histories and historical writings of people that experienced God in diverse ways, yet they hoped for a coming Messiah. Jesus revealed as the Messiah is the climax, and we are all part of the unfolding toward the completion of the Biblical narrative, which concludes (in the future) at the ultimate end. So, I believe we determine meanings of the Bible for the present, but the fully definitive meaning is not determined until the end.

3. Christianity provides perspectives of us in relation to ultimate stuff like:
a) What is the (ultimate) meaning of life?
b) What happens at the end (or ultimate future)?
c) What values are (ultimately) important?

Of course, those questions only lead to more questions. But inquiry is the way we gain insight, so I'm not too caught up in having definitive answers. Poetically speaking, the journey is often much more meaningful than the destination.

For me, Christianity is very intellectual, and I think that is largely because I tend to intellectualize everything, for better or for worse. I've often found that this puts me at odds with those who are more experientially or emotionally driven in their approach to religion. I have a hard time accepting that they don't care to think as critically as me, and I'm sure they get fed up with my endless questioning.

4. Christianity has forced me to think outside of the box that my unduly narrowly conceived science education left me in. Also, without my own recognition of the value of profound love, I think it would be far too easy to convince myself to act destructively and according to cynical perspectives.

Keep in mind that this is just a snapshot of my present beliefs. I expect that I will formulate my beliefs differently in the future simply because I will change over time.

5. I share bits and pieces of beliefs with many, but I don't personally know anyone that enjoys thinking about religion both as systematically as I do and in a similar vein. More often than not my dialog partners for Christianity are theological texts. Recently I mentioned to my wife that finding someone else that thinks similarly as me would probably require enrolling in a theological university program. My wife has a theology degree, and we even often don't see eye-to-eye in regards to theology.

My immediate family is largely Christian--my brother is even a seminary educated ordained pastor, but they have at least some perspectives of Christianity that differ from mine. Most of my friends don't consider themselves Christians, so obviously they probably wouldn't agree with many of my explicitly Christian views. There have been a few pastors in my life that I have great respect for because I can tell that what they say has much deep and sincere thought behind it, but I wouldn't say I necessarily agree with everything they say.

Ultimately this phrase applies: "In Essentials, unity. In non-essentials, liberty. In all things, love." My experience with the Evangelical Covenant denomination has made evident to me that people with widely diverse political, social, and theological views can get along and be constructive. Christianity doesn't have to be a dogma machine that churns out clones.

While I do have my own views about Christianity, I think it would delusional to believe that my views are the only correct way to understand Christianity. We're all motivated by unique life experiences and desires, so expressions of Christianity are necessarily diverse. Sometimes in discussion I do offer Christian ideas that I'm not personally very moved by. In those cases, my intention is not to mislead but rather to the point out the diversity of Christian thought.

6. My views might be different if I were born into a predominantly Islamic culture, but the fact is that I was born into a culture with a worldview largely rooted in Christian ideas. I've come to realize that Christianity has all the intellectual depth that I want in a religion, and Christianity complements other systems of knowledge I value, like the natural sciences. So, I don't feel any desire to consider converting to another religion. Nonetheless, I can still learn about other religions to see what they have to lend to my understanding.

My pursuit of Christianity is very much about working toward meaning given the understandings that we have. This requires taking seriously every reasonable atheistic criticism and the primacy of the natural sciences to our understanding. I believe a Christian expression that doesn't do that renders Christianity meaningless and incoherent for myself and others who share my scientific outlook.

[maestro8]

1. What religion would you consider yourself?
I don't like to think of myself as a religion. I'd rather say that I live my life by a personal philosophy. I've assembled my personal philosophy from various studies of Hinduism, Buddhism and Taoism. I like to think of the world as a buffet of philosophies, and I take what I feel I need, when I need it, and incorporate it into my life.

2. What do you believe in regards to religious beliefs?
I believe every action has a consequence. I don't believe in "karma points" but I do believe it is in everyone's best interest to do good for both themselves and others, however you may interpret that concept.

I believe that life is based upon suffering. I don't believe in the concept of "fairness". To believe in such a thing, I think, makes life that much more difficult.

I believe that nature is the ultimate power, that to align one's self against nature in any way, is to plot one's own demise, or at least increase one's own suffering.

I believe in the unity of nature and living things, that beneath the illusion of reality, we are all one. I believe that our minds lead us to believe that you and I and a tree and my cat are different, separate, unequal, but I believe there is a root of all beings, and we all share the same root. I'm not going to personify that root and say it is a deity or an omnipotent being, but I will say that this root binds us all together.

I believe that many of the world's problems would be abated if everyone could see through this illusion of "different, separate, unequal" and realize we're all quite alike. It seems that many, many struggles in this world come from others' desires to separate themselves from each other.

3. what does your religion really mean to you?
My personal philosophy gives me a frame of reference from which to see the world, and not be scared by the vastness and complexity of it all. It helps me make sense of both triumph and tragedy, in my life and in that of others. It is my very definition of "good" and "bad", my yardstick with which to measure my own success, my scale with which to weigh my decisions.

All this is done quite simply. I don't need to hold an action up against a set of rules to measure its worth. I simply realize the one-ness of reality and then everything else makes sense... that is, I realize that I, too, am the homeless man on the street corner, and to give him food is to feed myself. I realize that I, too, am the person behind the register at the grocery store and I would appreciate a friendly-natured customer who doesn't complain when I make a mistake.

I often run into situations in which I find it difficult to apply my philosophy, where I need to remind myself that I don't always have all the answers to life, and perhaps I need to simply absorb a situation and try and learn from it. I don't always come away with the right answer, but as long as I remember that I am the student, and life is the teacher, I believe I'll do better in the long run.

4. How has your religion affected you, and how do you think it will affect you in the future?
I can't say. I don't know what my life would be like otherwise. I don't know what's going to happen in the future.

5. What other people that you know regard religion in the same, or a very similar manner?
Generally, I don't probe others about their religious or philosophical beliefs... I'll read about it if someone cares to post, or respond if one queries, but I'm not one to make dinner conversation about such a topic.

6. What had caused you to believe/behave/feel/etc. in the ways that you had described above?
I think there are two parts to my "philosophical maturity". The first was moving away from my family's Christian beliefs. The message that I took home from church was that my life was meaningless without God, that my life mattered nothing to anyone but God. Whereas many in the chruch spoke of God with positive tones, I felt nothing but negativity. This turned me off to Christianity, to the point that I'd have nothing to do with it anymore.

The second part began in my early college years, when I took a class in non-western philosophy. As I was reading translations of texts such as the Bhagavad-Gita and the Tao Te Ching, I felt something of a resonance with the messages in these texts... as if they were telling me something I'd already known. From this, I felt I had already laid down the foundation for my personal philosophy, and here was the material that would build the rest.

All in all, I feel much more satisfied with life having made peace with religion. As a youth, I felt anxious that I couldn't integrate Christianity into my life, possibly because the community in which I grew up was largely Christian. Now I realize that religion / philosophy is not something to worry about, that life has much larger problems in store for us, and that we should appreciate every day as it comes.

As a Lao Tzu (mis)quote goes: "Be Content with what you have; rejoice in the way things are. When you realize there is nothing lacking, the whole world belongs to you."

[uni57]

Originally Posted by JJuggle

I don't know how Poincaré meant it, but as Billy uses it, it is a mere straw man thrown flippantly in the face of his fellow Unicyclist.com banterees.

I can't wait to see both of you at the Unithon. Both of you together. In the same place. At the same time.

[MorseCode]

Originally Posted by peleschramm

Billy,

Thanks.

Pele



Haha, is your name AJ by chance? You sound exactly like a coworker of mine called AJ, and I mean EXACTLY.

Any way, I would like to thank you for really going into depth on this one. If you would like to argue your points (I noticed that you phrased a lot of things in a sort of debating/challenging manner, though that might just be me), I would like to encourage you to not use this thread, but resurrect a religious debate thread instead. It seems like almost all threads about religion so far had turned into big debates, and this one is not about arguing that you are right, it's meant for saying what you believe and what it means to you. I would not like this one to end up in a heated argument, as then I fear that people would feel too intimidated to answer the original questions, or get too caught up in the debate to pay any attention to the original questions. I love well-thought out religious debates (as long as they do really come with logical assertions and not just a bunch of people arguing with no thought or knowledge), but that's not for here. So yeah, if you would like, post what you said in the thread that I had linked.


Edit: Also, you hadn't said this directly, but I assume that you interpret the bible in a completely literal manner?

No, I'm not AJ. But it sounds like he and I could get along well.

I wasn't trying to debate anything else I would have put references for each of my claims. I was just trying to give you a complete answer in terms of myself and why I believe what I do. I did get carried away; I'm just passionate about what I believe. I guess I put so much of the "reason" I believe in God beacuse if I hadn't researched and convinced myself of His exsistence, I'd be hardcore aetheist.

Also, your statement about "taking the Bible literally" is half accurate. The Bible reads like any other written work published today. It's not ALL literal nor is it ALL metaphorical. This is why research in original translations helps and also keeping an eye out for similes and metaphors. For instance, when the Bible says Jesus' sweat was as blood, many people misread the context to mean he sweated blood. In actuality it's a simile for the droplets of sweat building up and rolling down his face LIKE blood. Also, watch out for new translations of the Bible. Many times when it's translated entire sections of chapters are either removed or reworked to the point of exhaustion. Even footnotes or entries at the bottom of the pages can be misleading. Also, in the days the books were written, they didn't have certain words or the words were generalized. 'Dragon' is one of these words. Today we refer to them, dragons, as dinosaurs, but back then it was used to describe just about any kind of reptile--for instance, a crocodile or iguana and even leviathan. Jonah's book is a good example of this when it interchanges words like 'whale' and 'fish'. It's not a contradiction because 'whale' and 'fish' were both used to refer to a large creature of the ocean. However, today we have literal meanings for everything; so as we read, we think of now and not then and assume a fish must've been a whale-like shark of some sort. This is why paying close attention to descriptions of occurances or creatures helps in translation. From descriptions, we can deduce that the sea creature that swallowed Jonah was a species of large whale, and not a shark. In short, context is key.

Okay, I did it again... LOL

[MorseCode]

Originally Posted by peleschramm

Billy,

Thanks.

Pele



Haha, is your name AJ by chance? You sound exactly like a coworker of mine called AJ, and I mean EXACTLY.

Any way, I would like to thank you for really going into depth on this one. If you would like to argue your points (I noticed that you phrased a lot of things in a sort of debating/challenging manner, though that might just be me), I would like to encourage you to not use this thread, but resurrect a religious debate thread instead. It seems like almost all threads about religion so far had turned into big debates, and this one is not about arguing that you are right, it's meant for saying what you believe and what it means to you. I would not like this one to end up in a heated argument, as then I fear that people would feel too intimidated to answer the original questions, or get too caught up in the debate to pay any attention to the original questions. I love well-thought out religious debates (as long as they do really come with logical assertions and not just a bunch of people arguing with no thought or knowledge), but that's not for here. So yeah, if you would like, post what you said in the thread that I had linked.


Edit: Also, you hadn't said this directly, but I assume that you interpret the bible in a completely literal manner?

No, I'm not AJ. But it sounds like he and I could get along well.

I wasn't trying to debate anything else I would have put references for each of my claims. I was just trying to give you a complete answer in terms of myself and why I believe what I do. I did get carried away; I'm just passionate about what I believe. I guess I put so much of the "reason" I believe in God beacuse if I hadn't researched and convinced myself of His exsistence, I'd be hardcore aetheist.

Also, your statement about "taking the Bible literally" is half accurate. The Bible reads like any other written work published today. It's not ALL literal nor is it ALL metaphorical. This is why research in original translations helps and also keeping an eye out for similes and metaphors. For instance, when the Bible says Jesus' sweat was as blood, many people misread the context to mean he sweated blood. In actuality it's a simile for the droplets of sweat building up and rolling down his face LIKE blood. Also, watch out for new translations of the Bible. Many times when it's translated entire sections of chapters are either removed or reworked to the point of exhaustion. Even footnotes or entries at the bottom of the pages can be misleading. Also, in the days the books were written, they didn't have certain words or the words were generalized. 'Dragon' is one of these words. Today we refer to them, dragons, as dinosaurs, but back then it was used to describe just about any kind of reptile--for instance, a crocodile or iguana and even leviathan. Jonah's book is a good example of this when it interchanges words like 'whale' and 'fish'. It's not a contradiction because 'whale' and 'fish' were both used to refer to a large creature of the ocean. However, today we have literal meanings for everything; so as we read, we think of now and not then and assume a fish must've been a whale-like shark of some sort. This is why paying close attention to descriptions of occurances or creatures helps in translation. From descriptions, we can deduce that the sea creature that swallowed Jonah was a species of large whale, and not a shark. In short, context is key.

Okay, I did it again... LOL

[BillyTheMountain]

Maestro,go to the Debate Religion thread, if u want to debate.

otherwise, accept defeat!

HA!

[JJuggle]

Originally Posted by uni57

I can't wait to see both of you at the Unithon

Well that beats all.

[maestro8]

Originally Posted by BillyTheMountain

otherwise, accept defeat!

ur feet smell. i'll accept no such thing.