Road Unicycle Set-Up and T7 Handle Modification

[danger_uni]

Hey,

These are all really great ideas and it is cool that some are already working on it.

Because a uni frame is free to hinge back and forth, we are always going to be sitting over the balance point, meaning of course that leaning forward onto a longer handle extended out the front will simply shift the angle of the frame back. Consequently, the rider position and weight distribution for an R or V frame should be exactly same as long as we are balanced over the wheel. Nice thing about the R frame approach is it completely eliminates the possibility of bashing your knees on the frame (assuming the saddle is directly over the frame); the V is geometrically stronger for a handle but I'm not yet sure that can't be solved with an R frame approach (or some hybrid of the two) since we don't also have to support a front wheel.

It will be cool to see how all this pans out! Looking forward to see how Rick's V frame looks.

Cheers,

Kris

[flyer]

Man, it's been a while since I've posted here..

A neat thing about the R frame is that it will pack down into two small tubes, and if you're looking for versatility you can always convert it back to a 'normal' unicycle for if you're doing something more offroad or will need your hands or something.

It's very cool to finally see a use for the tail on the T7, I'm not sure it really had one until now. Awesome going, Ken.

[Ducttape]

I'm really interested to see how all these handle experiments pan out. I'm still doing research on my frame design(cut the drops and front fork off a road bike frame and fix the handlebars in place) As soon as i feel confident in the design I'm going to find a welder and see if I can't get a prototype made up. I don't see why we always have to think about how to bail off in a UPD, when I ride in a position to expect a UPD I almost always end up injuring my ankles or legs(haven't broken anything yet though thankfully.) My fastest ever UPD was at 22.5mph(36kph) and I was in a total road tuck came out of it with minor road rash and kept riding afterwards. I'll post up pictures of my frame when I finally get it mocked up.

[GizmoDuck]

Originally Posted by danger_uni

Hey,

These are all really great ideas and it is cool that some are already working on it.

Because a uni frame is free to hinge back and forth, we are always going to be sitting over the balance point, meaning of course that leaning forward onto a longer handle extended out the front will simply shift the angle of the frame back. Consequently, the rider position and weight distribution for an R or V frame should be exactly same as long as we are balanced over the wheel. Nice thing about the R frame approach is it completely eliminates the possibility of bashing your knees on the frame (assuming the saddle is directly over the frame); the V is geometrically stronger for a handle but I'm not yet sure that can't be solved with an R frame approach (or some hybrid of the two) since we don't also have to support a front wheel.

Kris

Hi Kris,

Regarding the T-frame approach using a KH36" frame....I think the knee bashing can be solved by angling it. I just need a bit more adjustment than what I have currently. So it looks less like a T and more like a T (slanted heavily).

I still think an r-frame or 7-frame is essentially a weak design....long poles sticking out from the frame with no support vs two shorter ones of the T-frame.

What you say is correct regarding balance point. You are still balanced over the axle, but your bum is pushed back when you arms are stretched out front. It lowers your centre of gravity which I find helps with stability at speed also.

[turtle]

@gizmo: do you never sleep?

i still thik for taller persons a T frame is perfect, and if your weight is on your bottom and your hands the force goes direct down it is also strong enough. i think a "one-piece" T-Frame with adjustible seat and handlebar (forward, backward and up and down) would be great.

btw: this thread is making me to want a geard 36"

[Rowan]

Originally Posted by GizmoDuck

At over 20km/hr, what are your chances of running out of a UPD? Either way, you will end up on the ground. In fact, I think one of the reasons why unicyclists have such horrific ankle and leg injuries is to do with the way we fall. Bicyclists tend to scrape off alot of skin when they fall (usually to the side), or break their clavicle/wrist if they went over the bar. Unicyclists tend to fall with their legs hitting the ground at funny angles....I think many of you have seen my Xrays and other Xrays on this forum.

If you are riding a bike, you are not consciously thinking about how you are going to fall. You try not to in the first place! I think we need to get away from the mentality that if you fall off a unicycle, you need to be able to run it out. Especially when you are going at 25km/hr....that's just not practical.

At 20-25km/h your chances of running out of an UPD are relatively high, and if all goes well you end up on the ground but on your feet. I don't know many other unicyclists who have had horrific ankle and leg injuries like you Ken- maybe you are extra good at finding awkward ways to crash. I think running is a very practical way of escaping harm. Maybe you prefer sliding along the concrete on your face. I think if you are going over 30km/h then running out would be hard. My fastest speed so far was 35.1km/h and I really did not want to crash although I came close to losing control.
I'm looking forwards to the results of these experimental handles- I just rode 150km with a T7 and it didn't feel like the most ergonomic position possible.

Originally Posted by flyer

It's very cool to finally see a use for the tail on the T7, I'm not sure it really had one until now.

I've found it to be useful. It is good for a stand. You can push the unicycle around with it. And when school kids ask to have a go I can let them sit on it and hold the front and rear handle without having to put my hand too close to the student's bottom.

[Klaas Bil]

Originally Posted by turtle

@gizmo: do you never sleep?

I'm sure Ken has a subscription to this thread, and that somehow he found a way to have the emails sent to his cell phone at any time of the day or night. It's "his" thread, and quite active and compelling at that, so he couldn't sleep anyway.

Originally Posted by GizmoDuck

It lowers your centre of gravity which I find helps with stability at speed also.

Ken, I think you are the only one who always mentions this argument. I doubt if it's right. If you ride a giraffe (I mean the unicycle version ), you tend to fall very slow and there's ample time to correct. New riders on a giraffe are often amazed at how easy it is.

Balance a broomstick vertically on your finger. It's easy, right?
Now try balancing a pencil on your finger. Difficult right? If not, cut the pencil in half.

Surely a tucked position has aerodynamic and ergonomic advantages, but not re stability, I think.

[GizmoDuck]

Originally Posted by Klaas Bil

I'm sure Ken has a subscription to this thread, and that somehow he found a way to have the emails sent to his cell phone at any time of the day or night. It's "his" thread, and quite active and compelling at that, so he couldn't sleep anyway.

Ken, I think you are the only one who always mentions this argument. I doubt if it's right. If you ride a giraffe (I mean the unicycle version ), you tend to fall very slow and there's ample time to correct. New riders on a giraffe are often amazed at how easy it is.

Balance a broomstick vertically on your finger. It's easy, right?
Now try balancing a pencil on your finger. Difficult right? If not, cut the pencil in half.

Surely a tucked position has aerodynamic and ergonomic advantages, but not re stability, I think.

Nope, I just hang around on my computer alot. And nightshift sometimes is quiet so I fire up my laptop.

As for the lower centre of gravity argument....I just went for another ride on the T7 T-frame set-up, and I'm 100% sure it correct. I was powering around a track today, and the ONLY thing slowing me down was the fact that I had no leverage because the natural posture as you get up to speed is to lower your body with your body down to about 45 degrees. Except that the T7 bar was up against my chest. As soon as I tried to sit in a more upright position, it felt extremely unstable. At 20km/hr upright is fine, at 30km/hr, if you hit a bump, it's hard to compensate. Also, it feels like I could get more power into the quads/hamstrings when I'm not sitting upright. I know I could pedal faster, but the thing felt too unstable to do so.

Ok, and another example....if you watch any unicycle races (eg track, or road), you'll notice that as the competitors speed up, the more bent over their bodies are compared to when they're riding around at low speed. That makes no sense if sitting upright is more stable. Have yet to see anyone win a track race with their body in the upright position.

I don't know how an upright giraffe can be compared....firstly the pivot point is above the wheel, and secondly, try riding a giraffe at 30km/hr. I think my argument still holds

[Klaas Bil]

Originally Posted by GizmoDuck

As for the lower centre of gravity argument....I just went for another ride on the T7 T-frame set-up, and I'm 100% sure it correct.

I can't argue with your personal experience.

Originally Posted by GizmoDuck

Ok, and another example....if you watch any unicycle races (eg track, or road), you'll notice that as the competitors speed up, the more bent over their bodies are compared to when they're riding around at low speed. That makes no sense if sitting upright is more stable.

It makes sense if being bent over results in less air drag, even if it goes at the expense of stability.

[GizmoDuck]

Originally Posted by Klaas Bil

I can't argue with your personal experience.

It makes sense if being bent over results in less air drag, even if it goes at the expense of stability.

I don't think the people who race are consciously thinking about drag. I know I don't. I'd rather position my body in a way which get's the most power and stability, because that has the biggest effect on speed. And for track races, they're not going that fast anyway with 24" wheels....drag is not significant.

Also, if you look at photos of say, Chuck Edwall or Jan Longeman riding at speed....they're all tucked over (with their T7's tucked against their chest). You'd have to ask them why, but it's probably not a conscious posture....just what feels natural.

[paul royle]

I'm really impressed with your set up Ken, I've been looking for a way to easily mount a bike seat on my coker for a while. Uni saddles are definitely not the right shape for distance. I'd keep a close eye on the T7 for any signs of cracking, handle failure with that set up would be messy!

Originally Posted by GizmoDuck

Ok, and another example....if you watch any unicycle races (eg track, or road), you'll notice that as the competitors speed up, the more bent over their bodies are compared to when they're riding around at low speed. That makes no sense if sitting upright is more stable. Have yet to see anyone win a track race with their body in the upright position.

It's true that the faster you ride on a uni the more bent over you tend to be, this isn't just about stability though, it's also because you need to have your weight slightly ahead of the contact patch of the tire, and as speed increases you weight needs to move further ahead of the contact patch. You see this most clearly watching beginners, they often don't lean far forward enough and the wheel shoots out from underneath them.

Having said all that, I think there are significant benefits of a more bike like position, reduced weight on the riders crotch, and a position that enables the rider to use their muscles more efficiently.

Originally Posted by GizmoDuck

Also, it feels like I could get more power into the quads/hamstrings when I'm not sitting upright. I know I could pedal faster, but the thing felt too unstable to do so.

I had a proper bike fitting last year, and one of the things they commented on was that I didn't lean my hips forward enough when pedalling. Leaning your hips back (and arching your back) reduces the amount of power you generate in your hamstrings and glutes. On the bike I've consiously tried to lean my hips forward and it does help, on the Coker (with T7) it's not really possible without bending my arms which is OK for a short period but not sustainable for long rides.

The thing I'm wondering about is how this more bent over position affects the effective fore/aft position of the saddle, relative to the hub. The rule of thumb for setting fore/aft position on a bike is that with the pedals level (horizontal) the little bump on the front of your knee (not sure of the proper name - Ken?) should be directly over the axle of the front pedal.

With a uni it's complicated because the seat angle varies as you speed up and as you lean forward. I would be interested to see if was possible to get the fore/aft position "right" for a given speed on a flat surface, and how this varied as the rider sped up and slowed down.

Paul

[GizmoDuck]

Originally Posted by paul royle

It's true that the faster you ride on a uni the more bent over you tend to be, this isn't just about stability though, it's also because you need to have your weight slightly ahead of the contact patch of the tire, and as speed increases you weight needs to move further ahead of the contact patch. You see this most clearly watching beginners, they often don't lean far forward enough and the wheel shoots out from underneath them.

Paul

Hmmm....I think you're right Paul. It feels like I'm going to topple over backwards if I ride in a too-upright position at speed. Maybe that's what I mean when I talk about stability, if I hit a bump at high speed in an upright position, it feels like I'm going to fall over backwards. That's why it feels unstable.

Originally Posted by paul royle

Having said all that, I think there are significant benefits of a more bike like position, reduced weight on the riders crotch, and a position that enables the rider to use their muscles more efficiently.

My thoughts exactly. Your weight is distributed at three points (hands, feet and butt).

[GizmoDuck]

Originally Posted by saskatchewanian

Turtle and Ken, where did you find those seat clamp things? I did a quick google search and couldn't find anything. It would probably help to know what they are called.

I can't wait to get a 36er again so I can try out a few ideas I have.

I did a quick google search too, and here is what I came up with, for $3 at Amazon.com

For anyone interested in modifying the T7, or constructing some other sort of T-frame design using front/back poles:

http://tinyurl.com/7qbrav


Here is a pic

[Rowan]

Originally Posted by GizmoDuck

I don't think the people who race are consciously thinking about drag. I know I don't. I'd rather position my body in a way which get's the most power and stability, because that has the biggest effect on speed. And for track races, they're not going that fast anyway with 24" wheels....drag is not significant.

I didn't think you still think about racing Ken! You haven't turned up to a unicycle race in New Zealand for the last 5 years! I thought you gave up!

[paul royle]

Originally Posted by GizmoDuck

Hmmm....I think you're right Paul. It feels like I'm going to topple over backwards if I ride in a too-upright position at speed. Maybe that's what I mean when I talk about stability, if I hit a bump at high speed in an upright position, it feels like I'm going to fall over backwards. That's why it feels unstable.

I agree. I find it very difficult to ride a coker without a T7 now, just holding the handle on the seat feels too unstable. Having a third point of contact makes it much easier to correct the front/back balance and reduces the side to side wobble at speed.