A step backwards for America

[maestro8]

Originally Posted by XCcrev

Under the constitution people have the right to vote on these issues.

You're mistaking the issue. The constitution says nothing about allowing the people to write their own laws... which is what happened here.

Legislators should be doing our legislating, not Joe the Plumber and Bob the Bible Thumper.

[disgruntleddave]

These issues should be decided by evaluating morals and ethics independently from religious ideals or norms.

If only the supreme court was objective enough to uphold equality and abolish discrimination and put forth rules to enforce this, I'd say them. Unfortunately they probably aren't completely objective, and even if they were, I have no idea what kind of process would be required to bring a topic like this (and other discrimination) to the supreme court. I'd expect the majority would resist enough to stop such a thing from ever happening.

[uni57]

Originally Posted by XCcrev

If nobody has a right to vote on issues like these who decides them then?
You?
The supreme court?
God?

Our elected representatives.

We the people elect them. Then our job is done. Except to possibly sway their vote (when the elected officials vote on issues). Lobby groups lobby. Individuals call, write letters, and email. The elected want to get re-elected, so they pay at least some attention to what the people want. And lastly, public opinion and consent is manufactured by the media and the invisible guiding hand of the PR agencies. It's a big loop, which feeds back into itself every step of the way.

I don't know why we vote directly on issues. The US isn't a direct democracy. The Wikipedia article on democracy is an interesting read. Scroll down to "Direct Democracy", which has a mention of California's extensive use of referendums.

Also, near the top, the third paragraph says...

The "majority rule" is often described as a characteristic feature of democracy, but without responsible government it is possible for the rights of a minority to be abused by the "tyranny of the majority".

So again, why do we vote on issues at all? Isn't our job simply to elect the officials?

[Tak]

Originally Posted by videotoast

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

I'm pretty sure we settled this around 1864...

[peleschramm]

In Arkansas gay couples can't adopt?

Aren't single people even able to adopt?

[Goats_On_Unicycles]

yea, but fags have ass-sex and dykes have been known to use dildos and we can't teach our kids about that stuff.

[peleschramm]

Originally Posted by Goats_On_Unicycles

yea, but fags have ass-sex and dykes have been known to use dildos and we can't teach our kids about that stuff.

true.


Edit: Wouldn't a gay couple just pretend that one of them is straight and single, therefore being able to adopt a child?

[Tak]

Originally Posted by peleschramm

Edit: Wouldn't a gay couple just pretend that one of them is straight and single, therefore being able to adopt a child?

I suspect a nonmarried person would have a difficult time trying to adopt a child. I'm under the impression that adoption officials place a great deal of stock in what they consider "a stable family environment."

[timbob1907]

I think the thing thats a problem is that marriage is part of religion and states that it is between a man and a woman.
What I don't get is why they don't try and get separate a but equal arrangement that would get the same benefits of marriage but not be tied to religion.
Its like a teenager wanting to apply for a senior citizen discount. There's logically no reason to want one but at the same time there should be a teen discount with the same discount amount.

[Gilby]

Originally Posted by uni57

Our elected representatives.

And judges and juries.

Originally Posted by uni57

So again, why do we vote on issues at all? Isn't our job simply to elect the officials?

For the most part it should be. Those representatives also need to follow the rule of law, which they don't. We've been sold the idea that we are a democracy for over a century that people have lost the concept of there being any rule of law.

I found a good video series that explains how it should be: http://www.unicyclist.com/forums/sho...86#post1125786

[GILD]

Originally Posted by Jeremy R

Im all for Gays, but what about piligimy? is that wrong too in your eyes?

Yes.

Originally Posted by videotoast

it would be better if marriage was just prohibited altogether!

I knew we'd finally agree on something.

+1

[BillyTheMountain]

Originally Posted by disgruntleddave

I also have to add that I think that it's in serious breach of 'Separation of Church and State' that marriage is a religious institution - because lets face it, it is. People see marriage as something that has to do with god and their religion.

The problem is that marriage, a religious institution, gives couples rights, legal rights. If this isn't a breach of separation of church and state, I don't know what is.

To solve this, I think marriage should be solely a religious institution, and have nothing to do with rights. Marriage should mean nothing legally. A legal marriage should be renamed to being a civil union. People getting married in a religious context must also have a civil union to gain their rights as a couple, but marriage is not necessary for it. There should be no discriminating, all couples should have the right to a civil union and their rights.

Even many of those who are against same sex marriage tend to agree, at least partially, that this idea would be fine. They just want their word protected and owned by themselves, which I can understand if they believe it is a holy institution.

What should we do about pre-marital sex?

[JJuggle]

Originally Posted by BillyTheMountain

What should we do about pre-marital sex?

Call it pre-union union.

[SHAY_CAM]

Originally Posted by BillyTheMountain

What should we do about pre-marital sex?

You cant do anything, why do you think its bad?
Sex is a very natural thing.

[BillyTheMountain]

Originally Posted by SHAY_CAM

You cant do anything, why do you think its bad?
Sex is a very natural thing.

How natural? You have to be taught, unlike the lower animals.