Small town justice

[SHAY_CAM]

Hi.
Im cameron.
Im 18.
I live at home.
This is my story.

On February sixth Me and three other friends rode down to the local tennis courts to go free running. Before you can go to the tennis courts though, you must first pass through the park. As we entered the park we seen police cars parked and 2 officers talking to some kids. We didn't think anything of it, they were just some little skater punks grinding on new tables. I was on a little razor scooter, the other three were on skateboards.
Me and one of the other people i was with were ahead of the other two as we passed through the park and across the bridge. I stopped at the end of the bridge to holler back to see if they were coming. I continued to walk to the tennis courts, getting about another 70 feet before i heard a voice yell at me. I looked back to see a police officer at the entrance to the bridge beckoning "get over here." I complied with his order and both me and the girl i was with walked to him. He ordered us to come with him, and i said "whats going on?"
He replied with "you two are coming with me." I asked why we had to go with him, and his answer was him showing his badge while saying "this is why, this is why you listen to me." As we started across the bridge the officer grasped my wrist firmly and brought it behind my back, without saying anything or saying why. On the way across the bridge i had asked numerous times why he was restraining me but his only reply was "stop resisting." Hand now wrenched as high as it will go, walking down the ramp of the bridge and back into the park from which we came, The cop still repeated "stop resisting." Now that we were in front of a bunch of people i started to yell, "what are you doing this for. why are you doing this to me. The officer replied "because i can." The officer now said "you are under arrest" (now i was getting a little angry, less shocked and more violated) I now stand firmly in one spot, not letting the officer jerk me around anymore, I repeated "I want to know what i am being arrested for." This went on for a few more seconds before the officer put me in a headlock and wrestled me to the ground. I knew what was going on and i figured if i fought it couldn't help the situation. I went limp and let him cuff me, it was quite dramatic, since he called the other cop over to help like i was was huge dude he couldn't handle. mind you, i was already on the ground with his boney knee in my neck. The only thing i said at this time was "man, are you serious, are you serious?" They then stood me up wrenching on my now gimped shoulder some more.( I could, and was getting up on my own just fine.) and stood me up.
He jotted down my details on his little ticket thing as he looked at my stats. eye color, stuff like that. I answered the questions i had to. He walked me over to a stage ledge and said "Why don't you sit down." I said i would rather stand. he yelled said sit down, i said i would rather stand. He slammed me down on the stage ledge with all the down-force he could, Landing on my cuffed hands in the process. I went silent. He tried to extract more information to hold against me. I remained silent. The officer did not read my rights to me. I was given a ticket, for 2 crimes i did not commit.
Interfering with a police officer, resisting arrest. 6250 dollars apiece. 12500 dollar base fine. No prior convictions or any police encounters.

The ticket summoned me at a later date, to emerge at the local justice court.
The first time i appeared i was told the papers were not ready and was postponed to another date.
The second time i appeared, i was given choices to what i could do about my fines:
Plead guilty, and get a suspended sentence, but it goes on my record. or
Plead not-guilty, and get an aplication for a jurry trial. This is what i chose.
She did not expect for me to say this im sure, because her face lit up slightly.
She tried to sway me from the jurry trial by telling me im going to need a public defender and i need to have food stamps to be eligible for one.
She told me to goto DHS to get an application for foodstamps to see if i qualify. So thats what i did.

Later that month i was called in for an interview at DHS, i found out i was not eligible for food stamps.
Therefore, i am not eligible for a public defender, right?
Wrong.

Financial Eligibility

To receive an attorney, you must qualify as indigent under Washington State law. According to RCW 10.101, a person who is indigent:

* Receives public assistance (temporary assistance for needy families, general assistance, poverty-relate veterans' benefits, food stamps or food stamp benefits transferred electronically, refugee resettlement benefits, Medicaid, or supplemental security income); OR
* Is involuntarily committed to a public mental health facility; OR
* Receives an annual income, after taxes, of 125% or less of the current federally established poverty level (external); OR
* Is unable to pay the anticipated cost of counsel for the matter before the court because the available funds are insufficient to pay any amount for the retention of counsel.
* When you come in for an interview, an OPD screener will determine whether or not you meet these qualifications. You should bring all your financial paperwork with you, including: your two most recent paycheck stubs, last year's tax returns and your most recent bank statement.

http://www.kingcounty.gov/courts/OPD/WhoWeServe.aspx

So whats going on here?
Ill fill you in a little more.

The third time we appeared in court, The judge asked me if i qualified for food stamps. I replied no, because i still live at home and im 18 years old, but im not in school, because i had just got my GED.
She asked how i pleaded and i answered not guilty, and i want to represent myself.
I wanted a jurry trial, my mother and father seconded that we wanted a jurry trial and that i was representing myself.
She then turned frustrated, and said no no no, thats not what you want.
She asked if my father was a working man
He said yes
She then said "Do you really want to take 15 people out of their jobs to come down here just for your son."
We all said yes. (my dad noticeably broken by her comment.)
She claimed we didn't know what we wanted and refused our tiral by jury.
She set a continuance for another date saying "I will appoint you a public defender to explain how things work."

Later on we found out some more information about my rights in the courtroom, how she violated them.

I just need to know, what would you do?
Im in over my head.
We transferred it to a bigger town with a circuit court where i will be appointed a public defender.



Small town justice for ya..

[SpaceFmK]

I would try to find a way to get this brought to a real court. Especially if you have a witness, or more .. The girl you were with and anybody later.. Do not let them try to violate your rights. Make sure that they know all of the officials that violated your rights like this.
I hate police for things just like this.
Makes me so angry just to hear things like this. GRR.

[saskatchewanian]

Do you know any friends or relatives who know the legal system?

I am thinking that having a jury is overkill. Just a judge should be good enough.

[Rowan]

I just need to know, what would you do?
Im in over my head.
We transferred it to a bigger town with a circuit court where i will be appointed a public defender.Definitely do not trust a free lawyer/duty solicitor. They will get paid whether or not the outcome suits you. If I were you I would represent myself, and just stick with the truth.

I've won twice in court in local cases against the Police (where the Police were pressing charges against me and I refused to agree that I was guilty). Knowing the finer details of the law will not change what you did so I doubt having a lawyer will be any advantage. If you don't get a good result keep appealing and get a jury case and you are likely to be listened to seriously.

I really do not like the Police complaints procedure here in NZ- you should file a complaint against the Officer as well as pleading not guilty. The Police police the Police. The independent police complaints authority sends your complaint to the Senior Sergeant who tells you what a great job his officers do and how he probably thought you were a drunken terrorist, and with the size of you riding a scooter it looked like a dangerous weapon etc. So you end up spending a whole bunch of your time unpaid, while the Police sit there paid to sing their own praises when they should be doing something about your complaint. You will get an apology but it is only a token gesture and they seem to get away with any bullying behaviour they like and be backed by the vagueness of the laws with no penalty. More people need to stand up against them or they will continue to abuse others.

Good luck in court!
A jury will definitely be more impartial than Police.

[TheRhino]

Hey Cameron, sorry to hear about your ordeal. I can completely relate to your story, a similar event happened to me when I was 18 (24 years ago). It is the most infuriating feeling to have an officer abuse their authority and violate your rights. Too many law enforcement officers are on a power trip; they have a badge, a gun, a uniform, and the knowledge that their fellow officers will not report their wrongdoing no matter what.

I know that the majority of law enforcement are good people just doing their job, but it only takes a few of the bad ones to make life hell for many innocent people. Just think, if the "bad" cop commits an injustice just once a week, that amounts to a THOUSAND over 20 years. Think of all those lives affected by it.

I hope your proceedings go well for you. Luckily your incident didn't become "the domino effect" that mine did. I wrote a cliff notes version of my story in the yay for justice thread awhile back.

[johnfoss]

I'm not ready to assume this was a "bad cop" scenario. The story, as written, offers no reason for you to have been given such stiff fines. What did you leave out?

Assuming your story is accurate; that you did nothing whatsoever except comply reluctantly/slowly/ask too many questions, I would suggest continuing on your present course, but consider also going to the local newspapers. Or even the not-so-local big papers. However I'm not sure what affect that would have on your case, so it might be a bad idea.

But at the moment I mostly think you're leaving some key information out of your story. Cops were already there, doing something. What was that all about? Were you suspected of being part of that? Etc. Knowing Officer Dickwad's point of view will help to understand his actions.

[BillyTheMountain]

im not in school, because i had just got my GED.

One lesson for everyone: Don't be a high school drop out, you're more likely to get into trouble.

[BillyTheMountain]

im not in school, because i had just got my GED.

One lesson for everyone: Don't be a high school drop out, you're more likely to get into trouble.

a person has several options. you can defend yourself pro se, everyone is entitled to do this, AND to use the court appointed attorney as an advisor. This allows you to speak, address the jury as an attorney would, question witnesses (call LOTS of witnesses, all your friends, the people the cops were first dealing with, make sure you get your hands on ALL police reports, see if this officer has a record of citizen complaints or misconduct (do your research).
The legal aid bureau ay be able to assign an investigator to your case to gather info for you, take depositions/statements in advance so you know what they will say on the stand (so you can decide whether or not to use them).

This you should do BEFORE you make a decision whether or not to proceed to trial. If you take a plea, you probably waive your right to appeal the conviction, and a criminal record will look bad to employers. You already have a strike against you because you're a HS Dropout.

In NYC, the High schools teach kids how to behave when illegally detained by police, so the kids can sue the police and make LOTS of money, just another reason to stay in school.

Offer to enlist and go fight in Iraq or Afghanistan in exchange for dropping the charges.

You have LOTS of options.

[SqueakyOnion]

May be a long shot, but consider contacting the ACLU for legal aid or advice, or perhaps some other civil rights protection organization.

Don't back down.

[mbalmer]

Offer to enlist and go fight in Iraq or Afghanistan in exchange for dropping the charges.

You have LOTS of options.

My son wants to join the military. During his Junior year (failing) he learned that it's nearly impossible to get in with a GED. They only accept high school diplomas. He is now working to graduate but it's been tough. He hates school.

I hate the "because I can" attitude. I have two cop friends. They are each nice people UNTIL THEY PUT ON THEIR UNIFORM. They become jerks with holier-than-thou attitudes. Not all cops are jerks but there are plenty who are. I hope you are able to get this sorted out. Good luck and let us know.

[ThisGuyIKnow]

being non-compliant in court is not going to help you when it's in response to being non-compliant with police. Even the ACLU says to be compliant with police instructions other than stating that you do not agree to a search. You need to make sure that they don't feel like you are a physical threat to them before talking back or asking questions.

Regardless of how much of a dick the cop is being a dick back only going to make things more difficult for you.

Even based on your own version of events it would be easy to convince a jury that you were being non-compliant, which can easily be considered interfering with police investigation and resisting arrest.

Be sure to check your spelling on any official written testimonies you make etc, because while it can't technically be held against it, people are human. Your poor spelling makes your story easy to doubt.

Good luck though. Either way lesson learned of how to proceed with police instructions.

[BillyTheMountain]

Even based on your own version of events it would be easy to convince a jury that you were being non-compliant, which can easily be considered interfering with police investigation and resisting arrest.

http://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/obstructing-or-resisting-a-police-officer-absent-physical-force.html

http://www.ohiojustice.com/PracticeAreas/Know-Your-Rights.asp

Try to keep people like ThisGuyIKnow OFF THE JURY.

Select people who watch Boston Legal. They are truly the people you want on your jury.

And get the law, the definitions of the crimes you are charged with.

[None of this is "Legal Advice". Get legal advice from an attorney. I am not an attorney. I am a unicyclist.

[BillyTheMountain]

She then said "Do you really want to take 15 people out of their jobs to come down here just for your son."
We all said yes. (my dad noticeably broken by her comment.)
She claimed we didn't know what we wanted and refused our tiral by jury..

In essence, the Judge is saying: your police record, and any semblance of Justice, is not that important.

[ThisGuyIKnow]

Anyone who chooses to represent himself has a fool for a client, especially when he barely passed high school, and someone who thinks they know the law better than a judge. The judge certainly knows what the precedent for "unable to pay" is better than someone who looked the state code up on the internet.

But he might also need to look up the definitions of resisting arrest and interfering with police investigation, it's likely that the story recounted her even without the additional details from the cops point of view is enough to be incriminating.

Proceeding without an attorney or at least some proper legal advice would have been suicide.

Imagine the cross examination when he gives his above story as his testimony.

The advice from the Ohio lawyer is just a rehashing of what the ACLU has to say about it. He did follow that advice.

While someone does have the right to not answer questions from police other than identifying themselves (depending on the state), it is necessary to let the cop be control in control of his surroundings and the situation.

The judge clearly has more experience with these matters than he does and knows that if he tries to represent himself it is unlikely to be favorable for him. She was right, even he admits he is in over his head, and without legal advice he really didn't know what he wanted. And ultimately she did get him a public defender.

At this point you're really best to take legal advice from lawyers not unicyclists. Even posting your version of the events on the internet is probably inadvisable from a legal stand point.

[Catboy]

At this point you're really best to take legal advice from lawyers not unicyclists. Even posting your version of the events on the internet is probably inadvisable from a legal stand point.

+1 We aren't all doctors and lawyers, and even if we were, who's to say our advice is best?

The fact is, you did resist arrest and did interfere with an investigation. If you had complied with the officer instead of screaming and wriggling around like a toddler having a temper tantrum the officer probably would have let you out of those cuffs without citation. Instead he decided to teach you a lesson you deserve. The instant you turned around and complied with his original request to "get over here" you were being detained by the officer verbally and should have acknowledged that at that point he has every right to arrest and hold you for investigation even if you did nothing wrong at all, IT IS PART OF HIS JOB AND HE WAS DOING IT RIGHT. You got an attitude and began resisting and interfering with whatever investigation he was performing, which he doesn't have to inform you about. His use of force sounds completely appropriate to me, as well.

Sounds like you screwed yourself on this one kid, learning to deal with authority figures properly is something you should learn if you're gonna grow up being a punk ass. Consider yourself lucky if you get your fines reduced in exchange for community service or something.

[Rowan]

Anyone who chooses to represent himself has a fool for a client, especially when he barely passed high school, and someone who thinks they know the law better than a judge.
...
Proceeding without an attorney or at least some proper legal advice would have been suicide.
...
Imagine the cross examination when he gives his above story as his testimony.
...
At this point you're really best to take legal advice from lawyers not unicyclists. Even posting your version of the events on the internet is probably inadvisable from a legal stand point.Don't listen to this unicyclist. You will be OK to defend yourself. You won't look any worse defending yourself because the Police were abusing your rights- they are obliged to tell you what you are under arrest for. It is not your job to hire lawyers and defend, it is your job to be innocent and the cop has to prove you were causing trouble. He will not be able to do that if you were not.

The fact is, you did resist arrest and did interfere with an investigation. If you had complied with the officer instead of screaming and wriggling around like a toddler having a temper tantrum the officer probably would have let you out of those cuffs without citation. Instead he decided to teach you a lesson you deserve. The instant you turned around and complied with his original request to "get over here" you were being detained by the officer verbally and should have acknowledged that at that point he has every right to arrest and hold you for investigation even if you did nothing wrong at all, IT IS PART OF HIS JOB AND HE WAS DOING IT RIGHT. You got an attitude and began resisting and interfering with whatever investigation he was performing, which he doesn't have to inform you about. His use of force sounds completely appropriate to me, as well.You definitely do not want a loser like Catboy on the jury. Don't listen to his nonsense. The Police officer was the one with the attitude, and you would not have resisted if he had arrested you for a good reason. Police can not give orders without reason- they need laws to back them up. Again good luck! Don't pay a fine or do community service- plead NOT GUILTY!

Catboy and ThisguyIknow you are both screwed!

[ThisGuyIKnow]

Don't listen to this unicyclist. You will be OK to defend yourself. You won't look any worse defending yourself because the Police were abusing your rights- they are obliged to tell you what you are under arrest for. It is not your job to hire lawyers and defend, it is your job to be innocent and the cop has to prove you were causing trouble. He will not be able to do that if you were not.

I am not a lawyer, but I can pretty safely say that a New Zealander is not the best source of American legal advice, especially a New Zealander without any legal training.

Based only on Cam's own self-serving version of events it would not be difficult to prove that he was both resisting arrest and obstructing an investigation.

A cop does have a right for his own safety to detain a suspect or witness before explaining why he is detaining him. If the cop feels that the suspect or witness might fight or flee, he has the right to detain the person and establish safety before questioning or explaining what the suspect is being arrested for. It is not unreasonable for a cop to feel that his safety is threatened when someone is acting hostilely toward him. Even Cam's self-serving description of events shows that there was hostility.

As I've already stated, he needs to get real legal advice and not just listen to people here especially those who already have a chip on his shoulder against police.

Giving someone such poor legal advice as "don't worry about it, you'll be fine defending yourself" is dangerous and in many circumstances the person giving the advice could be held legally responsible for it.

Legal advice should come from lawyers not laymen.

My only point in all of this is that Cam's complete innocence is not as certain or obvious as many here would like to make it out to be based on their own preconceived notions of police.

I'm in no way claiming that the cop is entirely innocent of wrong doing or not properly following procedure, but that doesn't mean that Cam is innocent either.

As I've already stated I'm glad he accepted the public defender, because otherwise the situation really could have turned out badly for him.

[ThisGuyIKnow]

For anyone that finds themselves in this sort of situation it's best to deal with the situation properly in the first place and take it up with the department later rather than deal with the repercussions of resisting arrest or obstructing an investigation.

The ACLU has a guide for this, read it and follow it, and don't escalate these sorts of situations.
http://www.aclu.org/racial-justice/know-your-rights-bustcard

[Rowan]

Legal advice should come from lawyers not laymen.

My only point in all of this is that Cam's complete innocence is not as certain or obvious as many here would like to make it out to be based on their own preconceived notions of police.

I'm in no way claiming that the cop is entirely innocent of wrong doing or not properly following procedure, but that doesn't mean that Cam is innocent either.

As I've already stated I'm glad he accepted the public defender, because otherwise the situation really could have turned out badly for him.Well that is well and good that you have so much faith in public defenders. I have had experience myself with them and I believe can they do more harm than good.

The fact that public defenders or in NZ Duty Solicitors get paid regardless of the outcome of your case, makes them less interested in your interests than you are. So in my opinion if you have the right to defend yourself without representation then that is the better option, after getting advice from the public defender perhaps.

If you are in court and the people talk to you instead of the defender then there will be no chance of them pulling the wool over your eyes and changing your plea. You get a chance to question the Police officer under oath, and he gets to question you. It is quite fun as long as you know you did nothing wrong. He will try to put his slant on it but hopefully the truth will be revealed.

[Rowan]

The ACLU has a guide for this, read it and follow it, and don't escalate these sorts of situations.
http://www.aclu.org/racial-justice/know-your-rights-bustcardPretty good guide.

"3. Ask if you are under arrest. If you are, you have a right to know why."

I looked back to see a police officer at the entrance to the bridge beckoning "get over here." I complied with his order and both me and the girl i was with walked to him. He ordered us to come with him, and i said "whats going on?"
He replied with "you two are coming with me." I asked why we had to go with him, and his answer was him showing his badge while saying "this is why, this is why you listen to me." As we started across the bridge the officer grasped my wrist firmly and brought it behind my back, without saying anything or saying why. On the way across the bridge i had asked numerous times why he was restraining me but his only reply was "stop resisting." Hand now wrenched as high as it will go, walking down the ramp of the bridge and back into the park from which we came, The cop still repeated "stop resisting." Now that we were in front of a bunch of people i started to yell, "what are you doing this for. why are you doing this to me. The officer replied "because i can." The officer now said "you are under arrest" (now i was getting a little angry, less shocked and more violated) I now stand firmly in one spot, not letting the officer jerk me around anymore, I repeated "I want to know what i am being arrested for." It sounds like not all of the guide was followed but the officer wasn't very forthcoming with the info about why he was under arrest- if he is resisting he has the right to know what he was resisting.

I can't see how a lawyer is going to help, apart from giving advice on your strategy beforehand. You pay them money but they can't change what happened, it will still come down to your version of events vs the Police version.

[ThisGuyIKnow]

Pretty good guide.

"3. Ask if you are under arrest. If you are, you have a right to know why."

It sounds like not all of the guide was followed but the officer wasn't very forthcoming with the info about why he was under arrest- if he is resisting he has the right to know what he was resisting.

I can't see how a lawyer is going to help, apart from giving advice on your strategy beforehand. You pay them money but they can't change what happened, it will still come down to your version of events vs the Police version.

You do have a right to know what you are being arrested for, but the officer does have a right to detain you first if he feels that you might fight or flee.

Also at the time he was resisting, he was not resisting arrest, he was resisting being detained for questioning, presumably as a witness. Until the cop has actually said, "You are under arrest" you are not under arrest, so there is nothing to tell as far as why he is being arrested.

Again even if you are under arrest. The officer has the right to his own safety before explaining anything. When someone is yelling things out trying to get attention of the crowd that is a threat to the officer's safety.

He needs a lawyer because he does not know the specifics of the laws involved. Knowing the law is not as simple as just reading the line out of a book. It also involves knowing all the precedents and what the legal definition is not just what you think it is or should be.

In the US a lawyer cannot change your plea without your consent. The plea comes from the mouth of the defendant not from his attorney. A public defender will at least know what the law is.

Regardless there is more to this story than just what Cam is telling here, and by that I'm not even insinuating that Cam is intentionally withholding anything.

It's not a matter of having faith in public defenders, it's a matter of knowing how the system works. Does Cam even know the rules about the types of questions he can ask during Jury selection?

[Catboy]

You definitely do not want a loser like Catboy on the jury. Don't listen to his nonsense. The Police officer was the one with the attitude, and you would not have resisted if he had arrested you for a good reason. Police can not give orders without reason- they need laws to back them up. Again good luck! Don't pay a fine or do community service- plead NOT GUILTY!

Catboy and ThisguyIknow you are both screwed!

Yup, screwed into never having to get into a situation like poor Cameron here. Every time I have ever had a confrontation with the police I was set free without citation(save for a couple traffic tickets). Can you say that? With an attitude like yours, I doubt it.

Rowan:
Generally if you don't know enough about a subject to have a valid opinion, it's best to keep your mouth shut, or else you just end up looking like a jackass. Especially if you call people offering legitimate advice losers.

Cam:
Pleading not guilty to the two charges is probably the worst thing you can do. Many courts impose the maximum sentence when someone pleads not guilty to something they are obviously guilty of, regardless if you think you are a victim of circumstance. IMHO you're best off pleading "No Contest" to the charges and seeing if you can receive financial aid/payment options to cause as little financial stress on yourself/parents as possible and seeing if there is any community service or other things you can do to get this removed/sealed/lessened. A public defender will definitely be able to help you figure out the specifics. You'd probably have to spend more money on a lawyer to get these charges dropped then what you would have to pay if you plead no contest, even then, a police report might contain info that negates any sort of counterargument your attorney may have. You have been fighting a losing battle ever since the officer laid hands on you, and the worse you fight the worse the consequences are going to be. Had you not fought with the officer and caused problems for him originally you would not be in this situation, he probably would have let you go scotch free.

TGIK:
An officer doesn't not have to say that you are under arrest for it to be so. You can be under arrest long before they tell you you're arrested and what for. Also, resisting detainment, even if it is resisting being detained by a security guard(not an officer of the law) can qualify as resisting arrest. Yes, Cam does need a lawyer. He is obviously withholding info from us, which makes it even harder for us to give useful advice. Although, after reading all the BS that has already flown about in this thread, it would probably be wise for him to disregard this thread entirely. That ACLU guide is nice, but applying many of their techniques will only get you into bigger trouble, officer's don't have to worry about some member of the ACLU hovering over their shoulder making sure they adhere to their conditions.

[Rowan]

The fact is, you did resist arrest and did interfere with an investigation. If you had complied with the officer instead of screaming and wriggling around like a toddler having a temper tantrum the officer probably would have let you out of those cuffs without citation. Instead he decided to teach you a lesson you deserve. The instant you turned around and complied with his original request to "get over here" you were being detained by the officer verbally and should have acknowledged that at that point he has every right to arrest and hold you for investigation even if you did nothing wrong at all, IT IS PART OF HIS JOB AND HE WAS DOING IT RIGHT. You got an attitude and began resisting and interfering with whatever investigation he was performing, which he doesn't have to inform you about. His use of force sounds completely appropriate to me, as well.
Outrageous! :p
Generally if you don't know enough about a subject to have a valid opinion, it's best to keep your mouth shut, or else you just end up looking like a jackass. Especially if you call people offering legitimate advice losers.
Your original legitimate advice definitely sounds like loser talk, and so does your new advice. Why not contest bogus charges? Judges don't award maximum sentence for people who plead not guilty and are not guilty, because what is the penalty for being not guilty? Have you forgotten what you said because it was on the other page? You've already judged Cameron as guilty.

[Catboy]

Assinine garbage...Have you forgotten what you said because it was on the other page? You've already judged Cameron as guilty.

Actually, I have 40 posts per page set as my default. Besides that has nothing to do with the matter at hand: Technically Cameron is guilty. Sure he may luck out and have a judge pity him and miraculously get out of this virtually unscathed... ...or he may be treated like almost every other citizen of the US and have to suck it up and deal with the rigamaroll that is the American justice system.

[Rowan]

Technically Cameron is guilty. Technically if you don't know enough about a subject to have a valid opinion, it's best to keep your mouth shut, or else you just end up looking like a jackass. You are not a judge, and Cameron knows more about the situation than you do if he is guilty or not. Just because you bend over and take it every time an officer stops you doesn't mean everyone has to.

[johnfoss]

Outrageous! :pThat pretty much seems to sum up Shay Cam's situation, and this thread. Rowan, why are you assuming that Shay's recounting of the events are accurate and leave nothing out? I would like to hear someone else's version of what went down that day before I can make any useful suggestions. Though things could have happened exactly as he describes, I highly doubt they did. What's he leaving out?

[ThisGuyIKnow]

Catboy says he's guilty because he is guilty of the charges. The statement Cam made here is not a sworn testimony, but if Cam gave the statement he did here as a sworn testimony he would be found guilty. Because he DID resist arrest and he DID interfere with a police investigation by his non-compliance.

If he were representing himself he'd end up giving a testimony like he did here and prove his guilt.

You can argue all you want that the cop shouldn't have been trying to detain him in the first place, but that doesn't change the fact that Cam resisted arrest and interfered with the investigation.

If Cam is going to beat the rap on those grounds he will need a lawyer.

Rowan's advice is dangerous.

[Rowan]

That pretty much seems to sum up Shay Cam's situation, and this thread. Rowan, why are you assuming that Shay's recounting of the events are accurate and leave nothing out? I would like to hear someone else's version of what went down that day before I can make any useful suggestions. Though things could have happened exactly as he describes, I highly doubt they did. What's he leaving out?If he is leaving something out then he knows it perhaps. I think maybe he underestimated the connection between the damaged painted benches with skaters and himself and so the officer may have wanted to talk to him about that- but then if that was the case the officer could have asked him not to damage benches rather than bending his arm behind his back.

Rowan's advice is dangerous.
I don't think he will make his case worse by saying he was doing nothing wrong- how can they give you a worse sentence for pleading not guilty? That makes no sense. Just because there is a chance you might lose is not a reason to make no attempt to get justice in a situation. Laws are guidelines and judges and juries are human.
I believe that the fear of Police's awesome powers is dangerous. People need to speak out when they are abused, whether it is by an Authority figure, a stranger, one of their peers, or anyone. Maybe you don't agree that people should have any right to fair treatment by police, but that is up to the court to decide.

[Tom M]

One lesson for everyone: Don't be a high school drop out, you're more likely to get into trouble.

a person has several options. you can defend yourself pro se, everyone is entitled to do this, AND to use the court appointed attorney as an advisor. This allows you to speak, address the jury as an attorney would, question witnesses (call LOTS of witnesses, all your friends, the people the cops were first dealing with, make sure you get your hands on ALL police reports, see if this officer has a record of citizen complaints or misconduct (do your research).
The legal aid bureau ay be able to assign an investigator to your case to gather info for you, take depositions/statements in advance so you know what they will say on the stand (so you can decide whether or not to use them).

This you should do BEFORE you make a decision whether or not to proceed to trial. If you take a plea, you probably waive your right to appeal the conviction, and a criminal record will look bad to employers. You already have a strike against you because you're a HS Dropout.

In NYC, the High schools teach kids how to behave when illegally detained by police, so the kids can sue the police and make LOTS of money, just another reason to stay in school.

Offer to enlist and go fight in Iraq or Afghanistan in exchange for dropping the charges.

You have LOTS of options.

Holy SH*T I hope you were kidding or drunk when you typed most of this!
I have a GED, I also make a TON of cash working on cars that are worth 100K plus. I served my country with HONOR, and recieved several awards for my services above and beyond.
Wow that strike against me meant alot.. Oh BTW did you know that most american teens that drop out and get their GED do so because the school work is at to slow of a pace and that they learn more on thier own? A good portion of GED recievers actually score very high on any IQ test given to them. I know, because I am one of those people.
Yes the officer was wrong from what we are reading, my first statement to him would have been to ask to have my rights read to me. Been there and done that, went as quiet and limp as a dead salmon. Made them carry me to the car and then into the station. Later on I sued them for wrongfull arrest and won.
But for you, Billy, or anyone, to assume a black mark on someone because they dropped out for whatever reason (which you dont know why) is both immature and a sign of a person who is irritated by people who are intelligent enough to be self learned, and usually to a higher degree then some college degree toting, Latin insignia wearing, snot nosed, over priced car driving POS person.

[Luke Collalto]

wow, this is just sickening. that police officer and his partner should lose their jobs.

fight it all the way. inform as much press as you can.

[DSchmitt]

just sounds like a jackass cop - like this one...

YouTube- Baltimore cops V.S. skateboarder

[Chrashing]

Any idea what happened in Cam's case?

[ThisGuyIKnow]

I don't think he will make his case worse by saying he was doing nothing wrong- how can they give you a worse sentence for pleading not guilty?


The part of your advice that I was saying was dangerous was that you suggested he not take the public defender and represent himself.

The advice of whether or not to plead guilty should come from a lawyer who knows the law and knows the precedents involved. A lawyer who has asked Cam about the details he's leaving out of his story and who has looked into the cops version of events also.

[Chrashing]

Any idea what happened in Cam's case?

Never mind me, I thought someone had resurrected a thread from long ago.. I had misread the date of the initial post.

I wish you luck Cam. I have no experience to base advice on, this sounds like a serious matter that I don't want to speculate on.... But, I know I would start with getting legal advise from an attorney or public defender as soon as possible.

[johnfoss]

So far no replies from Shay_Cam. This suggests one of two things:

1. He's gotten legal or other advice to stop talking it online, as it might negatively influence his case.

2. He doesn't wish to tell us the complete version of what happened.

Shay, we wish you luck!

[Into the blue]

3. He's in jail.

[SHAY_CAM]

+1 We aren't all doctors and lawyers, and even if we were, who's to say our advice is best?

The fact is, you did resist arrest and did interfere with an investigation. If you had complied with the officer instead of screaming and wriggling around like a toddler having a temper tantrum the officer probably would have let you out of those cuffs without citation. Instead he decided to teach you a lesson you deserve. The instant you turned around and complied with his original request to "get over here" you were being detained by the officer verbally and should have acknowledged that at that point he has every right to arrest and hold you for investigation even if you did nothing wrong at all, IT IS PART OF HIS JOB AND HE WAS DOING IT RIGHT. You got an attitude and began resisting and interfering with whatever investigation he was performing, which he doesn't have to inform you about. His use of force sounds completely appropriate to me, as well.

Sounds like you screwed yourself on this one kid, learning to deal with authority figures properly is something you should learn if you're gonna grow up being a punk ass. Consider yourself lucky if you get your fines reduced in exchange for community service or something.

I did not resist arrest, i did not wriggle around like a toddler..
the entire event happened in less than 30 seconds.
I was in school when this happened, i was forced to get my ged to get a job to help pay for the fines in case i was found guilty.
I complied as soon as i heard the cop summoning me.
Usually when youre being called at by someone you dont know, your a bit confused, at least i am. i dont know, im only human.
So asking questions about why i was being directed toward the other sides of the bridge is wrong then?
I only wanted to know what i was being charged with.

I wasnt asking YOU weather or not i was wrong or guilty.
I was asking what people would do in my situation.

Next time i witness a brutal cop attack apon you, ill just tuck my video camera away and play like you're guilty :)...

[johnfoss]

Oh. Sorry Shay, we thought you were asking for help or suggestions. Our bad.

[shermanator94]

Hey, sorry to hear about your condition.

I'm not sure if you want our help but I would just like to suggest that you should use references to Supreme Court cases (i.e. Miranda v. Arizona) and especially to the Bill of Rights/Constitution (5th - due process of law (obviously violated by the efact that you were not informed of your rights/informed of what you were accused of) and 14th amendents - makes the bill of rights applicable to the states)

Good Luck!

[Rowan]

The part of your advice that I was saying was dangerous was that you suggested he not take the public defender and represent himself.

The advice of whether or not to plead guilty should come from a lawyer who knows the law and knows the precedents involved. A lawyer who has asked Cam about the details he's leaving out of his story and who has looked into the cops version of events also.In my opinion it is still dangerous to trust your case to someone who has no interest in the outcome of your case- public defenders get paid regardless if you win or lose unless you pay lawyers yourself, or arrange a lawyer who will get paid from any settlement that might be won. If you are sure you've done nothing wrong and there was other witnesses to the event, then representing yourself should be a viable option.

Just by hiring someone who knows the law, doesn't change any of the truth of what happened or what any of the witnesses will say, unless they are being manipulative in which case you probably don't need them anyway.

The cops version is almost always going to have him being a heaven-sent angel who came to help but judged you to be a threat so was doing the best job he could.

Hopefully the truth will shine through better than the lies the police will surely say to justify their actions.

Video evidence would definitely be helpful. I looked up similar themed videos after reading this thread and it reminded me why I feel strongly in favour of standing up against Police misconduct. That cop in baltimore (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQgzqO8pT14) one is worth a view. Good luck! Refuse to pay fines because you did not commit a crime.

[ThisGuyIKnow]

The cops version is almost always going to have him being a heaven-sent angel who came to help but judged you to be a threat so was doing the best job he could.

Hopefully the truth will shine through better than the lies the police will surely say to justify their actions.

Good luck! Refuse to pay fines because you did not commit a crime.

How are you able to judge a situation in which you were not present and you only have one side of the story?

Of course the cop is going to tell a sugar coated story just as Cam is telling a sugar coated story here.

Using the evidence we have on hand which is only Cam's testimony here. Beyond a reasonable doubt Cam did commit the crime he was charged with. By his own admission here he committed a crime. He resisted arrest and he interfered with a police investigation.

Yes, he might be able to get the charges dropped on account of police misconduct or whatever, but that is not innocence that is using loop holes. A high school drop out representing himself is not going to be able to properly exploit the loopholes against a DA who knows the letter of the law.

I'm sorry, Rowan, but you are even less an expert on the American legal system than I am, so please stop giving such poor advice.

The moral of the story is, don't be a dick to a cops. If cops are being dicks to you take it up with the department later. Being a dick back is only going to make matters worse.

[Rowan]

Using the evidence we have on hand which is only Cam's testimony here. Beyond a reasonable doubt Cam did commit the crime he was charged with. By his own admission here he committed a crime. He resisted arrest and he interfered with a police investigation.You seem to be reading a different thread. Read the original post and the update again. The moral of the story is, don't be a dick to a cops. If cops are being dicks to you take it up with the department later. Being a dick back is only going to make matters worse.You seem to have completely missed the story, let alone the moral. He was not being a dick! If you are completely unable to read what is on the lines of writing in a story and you insist on reading between the lines with your assumed guilt, then what makes your advice worth listening to? Expert on American law you may be, but expert reader you are not. Taking it up with the department later is exactly what he is doing by going to court, not being a dick.

The moral of the story is, stand up for yourself no matter who bullies you. Take everyones advice with a grain of salt, and everyone always lives happily ever after at the end of the story, but the story hasn't ended yet.

[ThisGuyIKnow]

You seem to be reading a different thread. Read the original post and the update again. You seem to have completely missed the story, let alone the moral. He was not being a dick! If you are completely unable to read what is on the lines of writing in a story and you insist on reading between the lines with your assumed guilt, then what makes your advice worth listening to? Expert on American law you may be, but expert reader you are not. Taking it up with the department later is exactly what he is doing by going to court, not being a dick.

The moral of the story is, stand up for yourself no matter who bullies you. Take everyones advice with a grain of salt, and everyone always lives happily ever after at the end of the story, but the story hasn't ended yet.

Just because I don't read his statement with an anti-cop bias does not mean that I didn't read it.

I could equally say that you are reading a different story, as you seem to think that not complying with police instructions is somehow not resisting arrest or interfering with a police investigation. That is only a matter of definition of the law, and neither of us are experts of King County laws. In most places not complying with police instructions qualifies as interfering with police investigation, not complying when they are trying to detain you qualifies as resisting arrest, depending on the specificity of the law, and the degree of precedent that has been established locally even by Cam's own testimony Cam could be considered guilty of those charges.

Had Cam complied with the police instructions given to him, he would probably would have been questioned about what was going on with the other kids, said he didn't know anything, and walked away. He then could have filed grievance later, without any risk of punishment or having a record.

Instead he intentionally made a scene (i.e. being a dick), which can be verified by his story when he mentions that he waited until there were people around to start yelling. He didn't sit down when asked, and failed to comply even after being asked a second time.

[Rowan]

he intentionally made a scene (i.e. being a dick)I'll agree with you on that one. The police officer sure did intentionally make a scene (i.e. being a dick).

[saskatchewanian]

Hey,

You mentioned earlier that you were not eligible for something because you were not in school right? I would talk to someone about that since you now say that you are no longer in school as a direct consequence of the predicament you find yourself in.

[SHAY_CAM]

Hey,

You mentioned earlier that you were not eligible for something because you were not in school right? I would talk to someone about that since you now say that you are no longer in school as a direct consequence of the predicament you find yourself in.

Do you think this would genuinely help my case?

[saskatchewanian]

Do you think this would genuinely help my case?

I really don't know but it might be worth looking into/bringing up next time you talk to someone who might be able to help you.