Our German friends: USA may grant you asylum if you want to home-school your children

[BillyTheMountain]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/01/us/01homeschool.html

MORRISTOWN, Tenn. — On a quiet street in this little town in the foothills of the Smoky Mountains lives a family of refugees who were granted asylum in the United States because they feared persecution in their home country.

The family came to the United States in 2008 from Germany, where children are required to attend an officially recognized school, be it public, private or religious.

The reason for that fear has rarely, if ever, been the basis of an asylum case. The parents, Uwe and Hannelore Romeike, want to home-school their five children, ranging in age from 2 to 12, a practice illegal in their native land, Germany.

Among European countries, Germany is nearly alone in requiring, and enforcing, attendance of children at an officially recognized school. The school can be private or religious, but it must be a school.

[reprah]

Would somebody please pour epoxy into Billy's keyboard?

[surfer1024]

I don't see what's wrong with that. Shouldn't parents choose how their kids get educated?

[johnfoss]

Shouldn't parents choose how their kids get educated?It depends on the parents I guess. :)

[BillyTheMountain]

It depends on the parents I guess. :)

Do you want to legislate that into USA home-schooling laws?

My wife just asked me how the 8th grade drop-out down the street will home school her children .....

[reprah]

My wife just asked me how the 8th grade drop-out down the street will home school her children .....

WOW! Is an eighth grade dropout necessarily uneducated? What can you tell about me, oh great sage?

[Pigs on Unicycles]

I love home-schooling (I am a home-schooler). I think that it should be the parents' choice. There may be some exceptions such as the parent must be capable to provide a quality education and things like that.

Gene

[BillyTheMountain]

WOW! Is an eighth grade dropout necessarily uneducated? What can you tell about me, oh great sage?

i can tell u ur english is pretty good fer a drop out.

[BillyTheMountain]

I love home-schooling (I am a home-schooler). I think that it should be the parents' choice. There may be some exceptions such as the parent must be capable to provide a quality education and things like that.

Gene

pity that someone in Germany who tries that is a criminal.

[reprah]

My wife just asked me how the 8th grade drop-out down the street will home school her children .....

Does it make a difference to school bigots if the eighth grade dropout is black, Latino, white, or Asian? I just wondered if this is generalized prejudice or if it is confined strictly to education mythologies.

[BillyTheMountain]

Greg,

Are you speaking for Germany?

Billy

[reprah]

Greg,

Are you speaking for Germany?

Billy

Billy-

Are you trying to change the subject?

-Greg

[BillyTheMountain]

Back to home schooling, I support a parent's right to home school.

If Germany considers you a criminal, you can be safe here, and free to home school.

[BillyTheMountain]

Does it make a difference to school bigots if the eighth grade dropout is black, Latino, white, or Asian? I just wondered if this is generalized prejudice or if it is confined strictly to education mythologies.

If you were home schooled, you might know how to google and get an answer. It's an interesting question, but I'm not sure what a school bigot is.

[reprah]

I'm not sure what a school bigot is.

If you were home schooled, you might know how to google and get an answer.

You seem to be talking to yourself, now.

[wobbling bear]

Back to home schooling, I support a parent's right to home school..
there are two different aspects here: rights (and liberty) and culture.
Reports may be biased but what I have seen on tv reporting about home schooling is that woman stays at home to raise children. So is home schooling most of the time linked to a "no career for women" culture?
Though I sure lost a lot of time at school I would never have considered to withdraw my children (and grand-children) from social interferences of "common school". What do people fear from school? low level of learning? bad influences? jus curious ....

[nick]

I'm not really sure that there's a good answer about the home schooling debate.

It really comes down to freedom. But by giving parents the right to choose to home school or not, perhaps that denies some (few) children the right to an education about the outside world.

I've been thinking a lot about religion and spirituality recently (I'm very opposed to the first, and I'm still working on composing my thoughts on the second). It is wrong to indoctrinate any child into any religious faith. It is wrong to indoctrinate any child into any "ism" really, (including atheism).

When people home school, many (not all, or even most) are doing it to shield their children from outside ideas, for as long as it takes to brainwash them into the parents way of thinking about a certain (usually religious) topic.

On the other hand, it is very difficult to educate a wide variety of kids in the same classroom. Many children benefit from a home school environment, where they can learn at their own pace (faster or slower).



Also, as far as an eighth grade drop out goes, of course there is a chance that she's educated far beyond her 8th grade formal education, but the odds are against it. I actually think I may have missed the point of the exchange surrounding this though.

[scott ttocs]

there are two different aspects here: rights (and liberty) and culture.
Reports may be biased but what I have seen on tv reporting about home schooling is that woman stays at home to raise children. So is home schooling most of the time linked to a "no career for women" culture?
Though I sure lost a lot of time at school I would never have considered to withdraw my children (and grand-children) from social interferences of "common school". What do people fear from school? low level of learning? bad influences? jus curious ....

I am not a fan of home schooling in the US. I think a lot of the motivation comes from very conservative christians who do not want their children exposed to dangerous ideas.

On the other hand, some public schools in the US do not work well, and if my child were in one I would consider all options including home schooling.

Proper schooling is an enormous amount of work. Even though I do have more than an eighth-grade education, I would find the prospect daunting. By the time you put in all the time and energy to make it work well, wouldn't everyone be better off if you had put the same resources and energy into improving your local schools? This is one of the issues that bothers me about home schooling--it diverts energy and resources from making our public schools work.

Scott

[BillyTheMountain]

I am not a fan of home schooling in the US. I think a lot of the motivation comes from very conservative christians who do not want their children exposed to dangerous ideas.

On the other hand, some public schools in the US do not work well, and if my child were in one I would consider all options including home schooling.

Proper schooling is an enormous amount of work. Even though I do have more than an eighth-grade education, I would find the prospect daunting. By the time you put in all the time and energy to make it work well, wouldn't everyone be better off if you had put the same resources and energy into improving your local schools? This is one of the issues that bothers me about home schooling--it diverts energy and resources from making our public schools work.

Scott

That's the wonderful thing about the USA, the fans of one particular lifestyle or education program don't impose it on those who are not fans.

The best lesson is freedom to choose.

When experts cannot improve the schools, how do you expect a parent to improve the schools? Besides, that is someone else's job. We could put our resources to improving the police and fire protection, the landfill and recycling program, the waste water treatment, etc, but there are experts in charge of that.

Parents certainly can educate their kids.

Bear, a parent who chooses home schooling may have nothing to fear about the school. Just as a unicyclist may have nothing to fear about bicycles. These are simply choices we can exercise.

Billy

[saskatchewanian]

Just take a look at Canada for an example of why mandatory education does not work.

hint: google "residential schools"


Sure our residential schools were probably a whole lot worse than anything that is currently happening in Germany but hearing that children legally have to attend a recognized school reminds me of stories from some of my friends who were taken from their parents and forced to attend a residential school.


Good on the States for giving the couple and their children asylum.

[wobbling bear]

Bear, a parent who chooses home schooling may have nothing to fear about the school. Just as a unicyclist may have nothing to fear about bicycles. These are simply choices we can exercise.

This is a complex matter.
as I see it there are roughly two categories of reasons for home schooling:
- progressive (or elitist?): children deserve better than out of the box standard education ...
- regressive : I don't want my children to mix with **** (pick up your prefered group) or be taught **** (pick up your favorite hate topic such as sex, evolution and so on...)

In old Europe the reasoning about that are complex but to summarize:
- Parents should be part of children education (for instance complement school teaching when they've got time to do it).
- In french we say "qui n'entend qu'une cloche n'entend qu'un seul son" ("he who ears only one bell knows only one sound" this is a double entendre because in french "bell" means also a stupid person). So family is important and social intercourse also.
- Any parent has "parental duty" but this is different from a career where one gains self respect (in other words: don't stick women to home!)

So under some conditions (not easy to meet but doable) parents can group and create a school of their own.... (again there are criterias not easy to meet).

Now statistics tend to show (in the US) that children that have been home schooled fared very well. My opinions is that children are more resilient than their own parents :D !
Though this has absolutely no statistical meaning I happen to know two families where children , though not really "home schooled", got a very intensive training at home from their mother, in both cases the mother was qualified (teacher). These children are now 50 (for one) and in their 30 (for three of them). Very able persons but their career was far below expectations + children "cut" their ties to parents and families sentiments got sour. Again this happens everywhere and has no statistical meaning but in those cases I consider that extensive "cocooning" was the reason for things going wrong ... so beware!

[BillyTheMountain]

This is a complex matter.
as I see it there are roughly two categories of reasons for home schooling:
- progressive (or elitist?): children deserve better than out of the box standard education ...
- regressive : I don't want my children to mix with **** (pick up your prefered group) or be taught **** (pick up your favorite hate topic such as sex, evolution and so on...)

In the USA, neither of those apply. In the USA
- progressive (or elitist?): children deserve better than out of the box standard education ->PRIVATE SCHOOL.
- regressive : I don't want my children to mix with **** (pick up your prefered group) ->MOVE TO THE SUBURBS

Home schooling is not the typical solution for either.

There is a home school curriculum and tests, which follow the school curriculum, so you can't refuse to teach your kids something (like reproduction, health, sex ed)

[BillyTheMountain]

Just take a look at Canada for an example of why mandatory education does not work.

hint: google "residential schools"


Sure our residential schools were probably a whole lot worse than anything that is currently happening in Germany but hearing that children legally have to attend a recognized school reminds me of stories from some of my friends who were taken from their parents and forced to attend a residential school.


Good on the States for giving the couple and their children asylum.

:cool:

[scott ttocs]

Home schooling is not the typical solution for either.

There is a home school curriculum and tests, which follow the school curriculum, so you can't refuse to teach your kids something (like reproduction, health, sex ed)

You can choose to teach your children all sorts of strange ideas if you home school them. It seems to me that limiting the curriculum is the major motivation--teaching them your own view of the world and carefully explaining that other world views are wrong.

Here is an article about the home school textbooks that makes my point:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100306/ap_on_re/us_rel_home_school_evolution


It looks very regressive from my standpoint. I am sure that this situation does not apply to all cases, but it probably does for most home schooled children in the United States.

Scott

[AEV D.]

I'm not really against home-schooling, but in my opinion it's not bad that really every kid has to go to school. You have to mention that the school system of germany is very different to the one you have in the US. We're having 4 years in the elementary school and after these the kids are going to 3 different kinds of schools. You can see it pretty well in this picture (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7RMI2T8X1bk/SqDCAWLczEI/AAAAAAAAAAU/L9AAzO83KoQ/s1600-h/Bavarian+School+System.jpg). One school for the ones who aren't so good, one for the ones who are in the middle and one for those who are really good. That leads to a really good education in many different subjectes and I'm sure that there aren't many parents who could teach that stuff. And there are so many social aspects you learn at school, like holding together and finding compromises. You're doing so much together, going for a week to an other coutry. My class and I are going to sail for a week. To tell you the truth: If I were home-schooled I would have missed many great experiences. Maybe I would already have my 'Abitur' and go to a university, but I think it doesn't matter if I do that one year earlier or later, I still will do a job for the most of my life, long enough.

[uniCUBER14]

OK, this is kind of funny to see a topic about this, I was just reading about it. Ok, so I'm homeschooled and there are many great things about homeschooling. but about this issue in Germany, there is absolutely no reason why homeschooling should be illegal. I know from personal experience that almost all homeschoolers have an excellent education and most of us are ahead of our grades in some subjects. And the reason alot of parents want to homeschool their kids is the bad influence and peer pressure especially since Christian parents want their kids (especially when they are young) to not get caught up in a very pro-atheist anti-god culture.

[BillyTheMountain]

You can choose to teach your children all sorts of strange ideas if you home school them. It seems to me that limiting the curriculum is the major motivation--teaching them your own view of the world and carefully explaining that other world views are wrong.

Here is an article about the home school textbooks that makes my point:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100306/ap_on_re/us_rel_home_school_evolution


It looks very regressive from my standpoint. I am sure that this situation does not apply to all cases, but it probably does for most home schooled children in the United States.

Scott

Are you against CHOICE? Or are you OK with all the freedom offered to Americans?

[scott ttocs]

The kids growing up in the US today will be the people to drive our economy in the future. India and especially China are making enormous strides in turning out well-trained scientist and engineers. If the United States does not get its act together and improve our schools across the board, we will loose whatever competitive edge we have. Our public school system has very mixed results.

I am 50 and at some point I would like to retire and have a comfortable life. My future economic security depends upon the children of the US getting a good education. Yes, and getting good jobs and paying social security and generally making the US economy thrive. As a generally selfish bastard, I think we should be focusing more resources on our education system.

Choice? :confused:

Am I for or against choice? That sounds like a silly question. It does depend on the topic and context.

I am against teaching children a first-century view of science. I am against teaching children that the world is flat because someone in authority long ago said so. You can go out and measure the curvature of the Earth yourself and prove that a flat-earth view is nonsense. (You can also view images of earth from space.) Evolution happened whether you like it or not. Get over it. Autism is not caused by vaccinations. Pay attention to real science and particularly the methods of real science.

As AVE D mentioned, Germany has a three tiered school system where not every kid is expected to go to University. If we let go of some of our notions about all of our kids being above average, we might do much better education our kids to an appropriate level. Not everyone need to be trained as a rocket scientist, and we have yet to outsource craftsman jobs like plumbers.

Homeschooling is fine if it is done well. I am not convinced it is better than a good public school.

Scott

[wobbling bear]

To tell you the truth: If I were home-schooled I would have missed many great experiences. Maybe I would already have my 'Abitur' and go to a university, but I think it doesn't matter if I do that one year earlier or later, I still will do a job for the most of my life, long enough.
very good remark!
As a father I had the problem: since my son was brilliant at school trainers suggested that he skip a class and attends higher level . We refused: let him stay with children of his age!
he was not to regret that: in due time he made it to the topmost university easily without over-working himself and, most importantly, with proper social and psychological maturity.

[wobbling bear]

And the reason alot of parents want to homeschool their kids is the bad influence and peer pressure especially since Christian parents want their kids (especially when they are young) to not get caught up in a very pro-atheist anti-god culture.
from a US school? hard to believe!
warning: fancies of an hostile world makes you retreat from the world (and reinforce the hostility feelings). Immersing yourself in contradictions makes you stronger and less prone to such anguishes!

[BillyTheMountain]

I am against teaching children a first-century view of science. I am against teaching children that the world is flat because someone in authority long ago said so. You can go out and measure the curvature of the Earth yourself and prove that a flat-earth view is nonsense. .... If we let go of some of our notions about all of our kids being above average, we might do much better education our kids to an appropriate level. Not everyone need to be trained as a rocket scientist, and we have yet to outsource craftsman jobs like plumbers.

Homeschooling is fine if it is done well. I am not convinced it is better than a good public school.

Scott

The USA has no notions of kids being average, and they are tracked into fast medium and slow classes from a very early age.

Choice is lost when Germany makes home schoolers criminals, jails them, so the USA has to grant them asylum.

Do you want to make anyone who says "vaccines = autism" a criminal? Want to fill the prisons with members of the Flat Earth Society.

If not, then you support freedom and choice.

It's one thing to rant against it in your Op-Ed here or at the tavern, but when you make them criminals, you are truly against choice.

[BillyTheMountain]

OK, this is kind of funny to see a topic about this, I was just reading about it. Ok, so I'm homeschooled and there are many great things about homeschooling. but about this issue in Germany, there is absolutely no reason why homeschooling should be illegal. I know from personal experience that almost all homeschoolers have an excellent education and most of us are ahead of our grades in some subjects. And the reason alot of parents want to homeschool their kids is the bad influence and peer pressure especially since Christian parents want their kids (especially when they are young) to not get caught up in a very pro-atheist anti-god culture.

Here is a test for you, to see if home schooling is OK:

1. True or False: The Earth is round.

2. True or False: The Universe was created in 6 days by GOD, who rested on the 7th day.

3. True or False: Adaptation (like a black bird species becoming white to blend into a new environment) is not evolution (which means changing from one species to another, like ape to human).

Billy

[ThisGuyIKnow]

And the reason alot of parents want to homeschool their kids is the bad influence and peer pressure especially since Christian parents want their kids (especially when they are young) to not get caught up in a very pro-atheist anti-god culture.

That's the sort of mixed up world view one gets when home schooled.

Hiding your kids from the world is not a valid reason to home school.

[reprah]

Here is a test for you, to see if home schooling is OK:

1. True or False: The Earth is round.

2. True or False: The Universe was created in 6 days by GOD, who rested on the 7th day.

3. True or False: Adaptation (like a black bird species becoming white to blend into a new environment) is not evolution (which means changing from one species to another, like ape to human).

Billy

I took that test but it didn't tell me whether or not home schooling is OK. Why is that?

[BillyTheMountain]

I took that test but it didn't tell me whether or not home schooling is OK. Why is that?

You weren't really home schooled. (You learned on the streets). This test is just for home schooled.

[BillyTheMountain]

As a result of all the home schooled Germans getting asylum in the USA, the USA is going to VICTORY at UNICON this year!!!!!

[SqueakyOnion]

I am not a right wing wacko and I strongly believe in homeschooling. After wasting many years trudging through the swamp of public education, I hope to one day home-school my child(ren). I don't know if I'll do it, my future wife will do it, or what...but I want to home-school my child(ren) for at least some of their education.


It's not my, your, or anyone else's place to tell someone they can't home-school. Their reasons are their own and it's their choice. Just because some people may have (what you or I see as) bad reasons, doesn't negate their rights. That being said, I agree that there should be curriculum exams to ensure the students are being taught adequately.

[BillyTheMountain]

I am not a right wing wacko and I strongly believe in homeschooling. After wasting many years trudging through the swamp of public education, I hope to one day home-school my child(ren). I don't know if I'll do it, my future wife will do it, or what...but I want to home-school my child(ren) for at least some of their education.


It's not my, your, or anyone else's place to tell someone they can't home-school. Their reasons are their own and it's their choice. Just because some people may have (what you or I see as) bad reasons, doesn't negate their rights. That being said, I agree that there should be curriculum exams to ensure the students are being taught adequately.

Yes! But people in Germany do not have this right, so the USA grants them asylum.

the USA needs more Germans anyway, hopefully it will improve the quality of the USA beer! :D

[AEV D.]

the USA needs more Germans anyway, hopefully it will improve the quality of the USA beer! :D

:D :D :D Thank you for that, it made my day. :D :D :D