I don't usually link to Klan leaders

[feel the light]

This guy has a pretty good sense of humor for a hater, at least in hind sight.

YouTube - Former Ku Klux Klan leader Johnny Lee Clary

[Michaelgoround]

This guy has a pretty good sense of humor for a hater, at least in hind sight.

If you look at the description of the video it says he is a fromer Klansman. I believe the black dude he was talking about had a big impact on him and he is now anti-klan speaker as well as a Christian.

[hobo_chuck]

he is now anti-klan speaker as well as a Christian.

You make it sound like he has become Christian, when in fact nearly all Klan members are and always have been Christians.

If you noticed, one of the most influential things to this guy was the Reverend's religion.
I just thought you should know;)

[Michaelgoround]

You make it sound like he has become Christian, when in fact nearly all Klan members are and always have been Christians.

If you noticed, one of the most influential things to this guy was the Reverend's religion.
I just thought you should know;)
They may claim to be Christians, but they most certainly aren't. In the Bible it says that if you love me (God) you wil keep my commandments. And what is Gods second greatest commandment? Well in Mathew 22:34-40 Jesus says that Gods second greatest commandment is to "love you neighbor as yourself". Do Klan members love there neighbors as themselves? Most certainly not. If they loved there neighbors they would not killl them, torture people, think others inferior, and do what ever else they do to people. Soooo KKK members are not Christians, though they may claim to be.

[habbywall]

They may claim to be Christians, but they most certainly aren't. In the Bible it says that if you love me (God) you wil keep my commandments. And what is Gods second greatest commandment? Well in Mathew 22:34-40 Jesus says that Gods second greatest commandment is to "love you neighbor as yourself". Do Klan members love there neighbors as themselves? Most certainly not. If they loved there neighbors they would not killl them, torture people, think others inferior, and do what ever else they do to people. Soooo KKK members are not Christians, though they may claim to be.

You're an effing idiot.

[Michaelgoround]

You're an effing idiot.
How so?

[hobo_chuck]

The bible says all kinds of things.... For example, do you kill people who work on the sabbath just because Exodus 35:2 tells you to?

You pick and choose from the bible, so does the Klan. I don't see why it makes either one of you less Christian, since you both identify yourselves as Christian.

Here's a nice little article on living up to God's expectations. (http://www.kkk.bz/expectations.htm)

[Triball]

They may claim to be Christians, but they most certainly aren't. In the Bible it says that if you love me (God) you wil keep my commandments. And what is Gods second greatest commandment? Well in Mathew 22:34-40 Jesus says that Gods second greatest commandment is to "love you neighbor as yourself". Do Klan members love there neighbors as themselves? Most certainly not. If they loved there neighbors they would not killl them, torture people, think others inferior, and do what ever else they do to people. Soooo KKK members are not Christians, though they may claim to be.

I think the KKK members didn't look at black people as people, but as inferior beings to people. But they did love their neigbours (that were real people (to them, no offense)). Or am I wrong?

[nimblelight]

I think the KKK members didn't look at black people as people, but as inferior beings to people. But they did love their neigbours (that were real people (to them, no offense)). Or am I wrong?

You are correct, and it has Biblical support:

Exodus 21:12 "Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death."


Exodus 21:20-21 "If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property."


Thus slaves are not people, since the punishment for harming them is less.

Deuteronomy 24:7 "If a man is caught kidnapping one of his brother Israelites and treats him as a slave or sells him, the kidnapper must die. You must purge the evil from among you."

Leviticus 25:39 "If one of your countrymen becomes poor among you and sells himself to you, do not make him work as a slave."

This means that Israelites have higher value than other races, since they must not be sold into slavery, but other tribes/races can. Since the other races may become slaves, they are not people.

So, if you work with the assumption that the Bible is the word of God, it's all perfectly justified. I have no such misconceptions.

[Michaelgoround]

The bible says all kinds of things.... For example, do you kill people who work on the sabbath just because Exodus 35:2 tells you to?

You pick and choose from the bible, so does the Klan. I don't see why it makes either one of you less Christian, since you both identify yourselves as Christian.

Here's a nice little article on living up to God's expectations. (http://www.kkk.bz/expectations.htm)
Well the bible tells us in various scriptures of the new testament that "by grace we are saved through faith" not through law or works. My inquiry of google for a good passage on this has brought up Galations 3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians+3&version=NIV) which discusses this extensively.

I'll get to you tommorrow nimbelight. I have to go do something.:D
I would say god certainly shows favoritism to his chosen people. All though you could also see how it stinks to be them.

[nimblelight]

I'll get to you tommorrow nimbelight. I have to go do something.:D
I would say god certainly shows favoritism to his chosen people. All though you could also see how it stinks to be them.

I've gotten myself into a theology debate, haven't I?

Bleeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaahhhh.

I'm sorry I brought your scripture into this. All I was trying to do is support what hobo said about the Klan being Christian. Don't spew any scripture at me, I've had enough for today finding those passages!

[johnfoss]

In the Bible it says that if you love me (God) you wil keep my commandments.Does it also say that the people of whom he is speaking are, by definition, the Christians? I think he's talking about everyone. Bad Christians and good. Take a time trip back to a good Southern white church in the 1850s and see what the Christians were up to at the time. Everybody has room for improvement.
I would say god certainly shows favoritism to his chosen people.Who used to, many believe(d), all be white. :)
...he is now anti-klan speaker as well as a ChristianI would say he's become anti-Klan speaker as well as an American.

And he's got HUGE cohones for being willing to speak of his past deplorable, anti-human, anti-American actions.

[BillyTheMountain]

Does it also say that the people of whom he is speaking are, by definition, the Christians?

In the Bible, Jesus is talking mainly to the Jews, as that was the only group at the time who knew His commandments.

John 14:21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him."
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.
John 15:10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.
1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

[Mikefule]

Well, it's a series of amusing stories, well told, whether true or not.

I've just read Johnny Lee Clary's entry in Wikipedia. It's quite a story of a person who has more or less turned out good after a bad start in life.

As a cynic, I'd say swapping membership of the KKK for being "born again" is swapping one "illusion of certainty" for another, but at least it is a more constructive illusion of certainty.

You so seldom read of people who say, "You know I was a thief/murderer/violent man/racist (etc.) until I found the ability to think freely and reached my own conclusion that my behaviour was wrong." It's always, "... until I found God/Christ/Islam etc."

[BillyTheMountain]

Well, it's a series of amusing stories, well told, whether true or not.

I've just read Johnny Lee Clary's entry in Wikipedia. It's quite a story of a person who has more or less turned out good after a bad start in life.

As a cynic, I'd say swapping membership of the KKK for being "born again" is swapping one "illusion of certainty" for another, but at least it is a more constructive illusion of certainty.

You so seldom read of people who say, "You know I was a thief/murderer/violent man/racist (etc.) until I found the ability to think freely and reached my own conclusion that my behaviour was wrong." It's always, "... until I found God/Christ/Islam etc."

The statement -- "You know I was a thief/murderer/violent man/racist (etc.) until I found the ability to think freely and reached my own conclusion that my behaviour was wrong" -- is neither credible nor relevant to behavior.

Children know theft/murder/violence is wrong.

There's also no way to predict what a person who thinks freely will think, but historically they have found God/Christ/Islam etc as well as atheism.

[johnfoss]

You so seldom read of people who say, "You know I was a thief/murderer/violent man/racist (etc.) until I found the ability to think freely and reached my own conclusion that my behaviour was wrong." It's always, "... until I found God/Christ/Islam etc."That's because the churches attached to God/Christ/Islam(/other) have a product to sell, and they are much better marketers than the non-product "thinking freely". Generally thinking freely works against most forms of marketing/advertising... :p

[BillyTheMountain]

Am I hearing you right?

Are you saying that free thinkers don't steal and kill?:eek:

Are you saying that free thinkers obey the Ten Commandments?:p

[MuniOrBust]

Am I hearing you right?

Are you saying that free thinkers don't steal and kill?:eek:

Are you saying that free thinkers obey the Ten Commandments?:p

No. You're not hearing him right.
He didn't say anything you're suggesting.

I think what he is saying is:

That's because the churches attached to God/Christ/Islam(/other) have a product to sell, and they are much better marketers than the non-product "thinking freely". Generally thinking freely works against most forms of marketing/advertising...

[habbywall]

You so seldom read of people who say, "You know I was a thief/murderer/violent man/racist (etc.) until I found the ability to think freely and reached my own conclusion that my behaviour was wrong." It's always, "... until I found God/Christ/Islam etc."

I was a Christian until I found the ability to think freely and reached my own conclusion that my behaviour was wrong.

[BillyTheMountain]

MuniBUST,

First of all, I resent you saying Freethinkers steal and kill. They don't.

Second, I found your website:
http://revkeyes.blogspot.com/ "faith for free thinkers: Run by the pastor of a Christian church for independent thinkers, this blog is all about interacting with each other and the world-at-large, discussing a variety of issues from any adventurous, intelligent, open-minded faith perspective."

Billy

[hobo_chuck]

open-minded faith

Open-minded faith? WTF is that?

[MuniOrBust]

MuniBUST,

First of all, I resent you saying Freethinkers steal and kill. They don't.

Second, I found your website:
http://revkeyes.blogspot.com/ "faith for free thinkers: Run by the pastor of a Christian church for independent thinkers, this blog is all about interacting with each other and the world-at-large, discussing a variety of issues from any adventurous, intelligent, open-minded faith perspective."

Billy

Huh?

[johnfoss]

Open-minded faith? WTF is that?Unitarian/Universalist. Something to do with having uni in the name, perhaps? :)

Billy, I'm resisting taking your bait...

[BillyTheMountain]

MuniBust,

Aren't you the freethinker?

I found your freethinker website.

These freethinkers happen to be christian.

Maybe someone will make a website for freethinking Jews, Hindus, Atheists, etc, but right now it looks like the Christians have the only website for freethinkers.

Billy

[hobo_chuck]

Unitarian/Universalist. Something to do with having uni in the name, perhaps? :)

The point is that faith is absolute--if you're open to other ideas, then you don't exactly have faith. You could have belief, perhaps, but not faith.

It's funny, I took this "What Cult Should I Join? (http://www.okcupid.com/tests/take?testid=16997232335198460795)" quiz, and Unitarian-Universalist was my result.:rolleyes:

Haha, I just took the quiz again and got the same result, with 33 Angst, 30 Weirdness, and 54 Freedom!

[johnfoss]

The point is that faith is absolute--if you're open to other ideas, then you don't exactly have faith. You could have belief, perhaps, but not faith.I'm not sure, but you may have just dissed all the UUs. The answer to that would have to come from someone who knows more about it...

[BillyTheMountain]

hobo chuck,

are you saying that because atheists aren't open to the idea of GOD, they DO have faith?:eek:

the wonderful thing is that all atheists believe the SAME THING about GOD.

If atheist=freethinkers, then freethinkers all think the same thing.:cool:

Persons-of-Faith, on the other hand, each have their own individual idea of GOD. Some see GOD as more just, others as more compassionate, others emphasize GOD's mercy, still others GOD's resemblance to an old White man with a long beard.

Freethinkers all think the same, but believers all believe something different.:p

[MuniOrBust]

MuniBust,

Aren't you the freethinker?

I found your freethinker website.

These freethinkers happen to be christian.

Maybe someone will make a website for freethinking Jews, Hindus, Atheists, etc, but right now it looks like the Christians have the only website for freethinkers.

Billy

I am not "the freethinker" as far as I know. Although I suppose that's just what "the freethinker" would think.

Thank you for sharing your website, but I'm not interested.

[hobo_chuck]

hobo chuck,

are you saying that because atheists aren't open to the idea of GOD, they DO have faith?

the wonderful thing is that all atheists believe the SAME THING about GOD.

Here, this might clear some things up for you:

YouTube - Open-mindedness

[munimutant]

You so seldom read of people who say, "You know I was a thief/murderer/violent man/racist (etc.) until I found the ability to think freely and reached my own conclusion that my behaviour was wrong." It's always, "... until I found God/Christ/Islam etc."

So true! And how about the 'ol "As a Christian, I...." preamble to some declaration by the speaker about some act of compassion he or she performed, instead of simply "As a human being who knows right and wrong."

Doing good deeds motivated by a desire for eternal life is actually quite selfish (and if I recall from Catholic school days, that's a sin!). Doing them purely because they're right.....now that's when you get a gold star on your chart.

[MuniOrBust]

Here, this might clear some things up for you:

YouTube - Open-mindedness (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T69TOuqaqXI)

I like this video.
At 4:38 it talks about misrepresentation.

I believe I've seen some of that going on around here lately.

[Michaelgoround]

So true! And how about the 'ol "As a Christian, I...." preamble to some declaration by the speaker about some act of compassion he or she performed, instead of simply "As a human being who knows right and wrong."

Doing good deeds motivated by a desire for eternal life is actually quite selfish (and if I recall from Catholic school days, that's a sin!). Doing them purely because they're right.....now that's when you get a gold star on your chart.
And if one is a Christian who beleives the bible is the word of God(I'm not sure how you couldn't) it is also scripturally wrong. If you look at Ephisians 2:8-9 it says that by grace through faith one is saved "not by works lest anyone should boast". I would say that they are probably saying that they are motivated by there Christianity to serve people. Afterall Jesus tell us to serve others as he did.

[MuniAddict]

I found this interesting. Same quote appears on "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins. Does it sound almost cult-like?

Luke 9:23-24 “If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.”

[Peripatet]

beleives the bible is the word of God(I'm not sure how you couldn't)


Really?!

REALLY?!?!

Have you never played that telephone game as a kid where you whisper a secret in one kid's ear and by the time it goes through 10 or 20 kids, it has completely morphed? Multiply that by, oh, say 2000 years.

And then try having each kid speak a different language and need to translate the message to pass it on. . .

<<Can open. Worms everywhere.>>

[Michaelgoround]

I found this interesting. Same quote appears on "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins. Does it sound almost cult-like?

Luke 9:23-24 “If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.”
This is what I got from my search for it:

Luke 9:23-24 23Then he said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. 24For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will save it.
Yours may be a different interpitation. I do not know which though.
What I got out of my interpatation is that if you want to save your life from the wrath of God you must give it to God (hence lose it) and by giving your life to God you therefore save it from his wrath which would be an eternity in hell.

[MuniAddict]

This is what I got from my search for it:

Luke 9:23-24 23Then he said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. 24For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will save it.
Yours may be a different interpitation. I do not know which though.
What I got out of my interpatation is that if you want to save your life from the wrath of God you must give it to God (hence lose it) and by giving your life to God you therefore save it from his wrath which would be an eternity in hell.Whoops, sorry I had the wrong one. Try this:

Luke 14:26 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?version=NASB&search=Luke%2014:26)

[Michaelgoround]

Whoops, sorry I had the wrong one. Try this:

Luke 14:26 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?version=NASB&search=Luke%2014:26)

Well then I can tell you as i thought it is in comparrison of ones love for Christ (I checked this). If you read the whole section of that passage it is reffering to giving up everything for Christ a concept few Christians are willing to do (myself included).

EDIT: Here is that whole section of the Bible. (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2014:25-35&version=NASB) When a verse is vague it is best to look at the entire passage and if the passage is vague then looking at other passages will usually help you with understanding things better.

[nimblelight]

The fact that you weren't familiar with such a verse makes me think that you haven't even read your own holy book.

[Michaelgoround]

Really?!

REALLY?!?!

Have you never played that telephone game as a kid where you whisper a secret in one kid's ear and by the time it goes through 10 or 20 kids, it has completely morphed? Multiply that by, oh, say 2000 years.

And then try having each kid speak a different language and need to translate the message to pass it on. . .

<<Can open. Worms everywhere.>>
I can tell you there is a very logical explanation for this, (I've read it) but with that view how can we rely on other historical documents? I've got a book laying around somewhere that explains it I'll get back to you.

Is that to mean my view is crushed?

[Michaelgoround]

The fact that you weren't familiar with such a verse makes me think that you haven't even read your own holy book.
I certainly haven't read the whole thing yet, but I have only been a "true" Christian for going on a little over a year now. Quite honestly it is quite sad that I am one of the more informed Christians me only being a "good" one for only a year now I also find it sad that I have not completed reading my Bible yet. Of course with the Bible you don't just simply read it from end to end (it can get very boring at parts). Its mostly a very interesting book to me. Of course I like philosophy a lot and I am a Christian.

You are an American have you read the entire constitution?:p

[nimblelight]

You are an American have you read the entire constitution?:p
Yes. That you haven't disturbs me even more than what you said before.

[Michaelgoround]

Yes. That you haven't disturbs me even more than what you said before.
Haha that I haven't read the entire U.S. constitution? I think your one of the very few that has. I must say I'm proud of you for that. Maybe proud isn't the best word.... impressed?

[nimblelight]

Why? It's not like the the Constitution is a 1000 page book of arcane pseudo-history. It's important.

I'd be a hypocrite and a sub par citizen if I didn't know it.

[Michaelgoround]

Why? It's not like the the Constitution is a 1000 page book of arcane pseudo-history. It's important.

I'd be a hypocrite and a sub par citizen if I didn't know it.
Arcane maybe but from what I have seen it is not in anyway pseudo. I will admit that I have only so far studied apologetics books, but in the future I intend on studying further into the atheist perspective and seeing if what they say is more true. Right now I am trying to build my "faith" which I do at times think is ill founded.

I don't know if I would say that.
EDIT: I am of the mindset that you should question everything before accepting it as truth and still not tottally counting it out as being possibly false.

[Peripatet]

Is that to mean my view is crushed?

Nope. More meant to insinuate that I was opening a discussion of why the Bible makes for a poor historical document.


Break, break.


I have read the Constitution in it's entirety. Heck, I own a copy. Every American ought to have a full understanding of the principles and policies on which his country was founded. And unlike the bible, that document has a clear provenance.

[ThisGuyIKnow]

...that passage it is reffering to giving up everything for Christ a concept few Christians are willing to do (myself included).

And you call yourself a Christian? :rolleyes:

I certainly haven't read the whole thing yet, but I have only been a "true" Christian for going on a little over a year now. Quite honestly it is quite sad that I am one of the more informed Christians me only being a "good" one for only a year now I also find it sad that I have not completed reading my Bible yet.

You've had time to "study" apologetic books, but not to read the bible? So therefore your beliefs are not based on the Bible (the supposed word of God) but on man's interpretation (and attempted justification) of it. I think Billy might say that's worshiping false idols.

Haha that I haven't read the entire U.S. constitution? I think your one of the very few that has. I must say I'm proud of you for that. Maybe proud isn't the best word.... impressed?

It's really not that impressive of a feat it's only 6 pages long.

Right now I am trying to build my "faith" which I do at times think is ill founded.


Of course your "Faith" all faith is ill-founded. That's the very definition of faith. If you were basing your views on facts and evidence you would believe differently.

[nimblelight]

It's really not that impressive of a feat it's only 6 pages long.

...or, for the lazy:

A single webpage long. (http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html)

[ThisGuyIKnow]

...or, for the lazy:

A single webpage long. (http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html)

To be fair pages isn't a good way to count. It's about 4500 words, with the Amendments about 7000. It can easily be read in a single sitting.