Disbelief in solid objects

[UniGoth]

Iv decided not to believe in i-pods

Does anyone ells not believe in a solid object, such as an i-pod?

(To amuse myself Iv decided to color code all the words I used more then once in the same color :D)

[Triball]

By disbelief do you mean that we don't believe they're going to make it in the market or that we dont believe they're actually there?
For the latter, I have my doubts.

[UniGoth]

By disbelief do you mean that we don't believe they're going to make it in the market or that we dont believe they're actually there?
For the latter, I have my doubts.

Oh NO, I think there Definitely going to be on the top of the market for a while, I meant that I don't believe they're actually there, or rather, that they exist at all.

[Triball]

I think they don't exist aswell. Or at least, I have reason to believe that their existence is not objective. There are possibilities that they do not exist.

I'm sorry I didn't color-code words. It's just too much work.

[UniGoth]

I think they don't exist aswell. Or at least, I have reason to believe that their existence is not objective. There are possibilities that they do not exist.

I'm sorry I didn't color-code words. It's just too much work.

I'm glad to see there are people who agree with me. Blue Blue Red Red Purple Purple

[Rezinha]

iPods are a collective hallucination.

[UniGoth]

iPods are a collective hallucination.

Lawl

[amanda.gallacher]

riiiiight

[peleschramm]

I find it funny how you assume that there are only 2 types of portable media players...

[UniGoth]

I find it funny how you assume that there are only 2 types of portable media players...

Not that I only believe there are 2 types, it was more of a "joke" to go along in the poll, I in fact own a 1gb sandisk sansa which i got for just under $100 and is now selling for like $20

[johnfoss]

I believe we have two iPods in our house, and they both work. But you said "i-pod". Maybe those don't exist.

[Rezinha]

I don't believe in solid objects.
Because they're not really solid... they could be liquid!
Actually, they're everything together.
I mean, what differs is the interaction of molecules!
If they are all together, like, really together, then it's solid.
But... if they are not thaaat together, it's liquid. But, if they are not together at all, then it's gas!
So, in fact, I don't belive in any physical state of matter!

[Jerrick]

And if the molecules (In a gas) are pressurised and cooled down enough it becomes liquid, and keep getting colder and the atoms smash into waves, connection to each other, become one and everywhere at once, with no start or end, and there we have a condensate! Another type of matter! Yeah!

[john_childs]

This could be a variation of Schrodinger's Cat paradox. Only instead of a cat there is an iPod in the box. The box either destroys an iPod by turning on a plasma arc or lets the iPod be. You never know which state the iPod is until you open the box. The iPod may not exist.

[Rezinha]

Yep... It's a crazy world.

[Rezinha]

Nothing exists. Everything just floats into a mass of energy in this world. Because the world is just a big mass of energy... and we float through it, as everything else does.

[UniGoth]

Nothing exists. Everything just floats into a mass of energy in this world. Because the world is just a big mass of energy... and we float through it, as everything else does.

WOW I wish there where more women like you where I live:p.

[Triball]

Clicky (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/15/science/15brain.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all)

[Rezinha]

Come to think of that, who knows that the Big Bang really happened?
I mean, ok, they can try to prove it and whatever but, was someone really there to tell us that it really happened?
I can't say that I believe in dinossaurs too... You know, who was there too to say it? I know there's a lot of proves and so, and I'm not saying that they didn't exist... I think maybe they existed but they could do things that we can't imagine! Who can say that I'm wrong saying the dinossaurs could talk and jump rope? Maybe they could, maybe they couldn't. We'll never know.

And... do we exist?
I mean, do we really ride unicycles? Do unicycles exists?
Or are we and our unicycles just a collective hallucination, as iPods are?

[idiorythmic]

(they're) Definitely going to be on the top of the market for a while, I meant that I don't believe they're actually there, or rather, that they exist at all.

A most beautiful aspect of our free markets: things that don't actually exist can make lots of money for someone. :D

[Biggestbtc]

Come to think of that, who knows that the Big Bang really happened?
I mean, ok, they can try to prove it and whatever but, was someone really there to tell us that it really happened?
I can't say that I believe in dinossaurs too... You know, who was there too to say it? I know there's a lot of proves and so, and I'm not saying that they didn't exist... I think maybe they existed but they could do things that we can't imagine! Who can say that I'm wrong saying the dinossaurs could talk and jump rope? Maybe they could, maybe they couldn't. We'll never know.

And... do we exist?
I mean, do we really ride unicycles? Do unicycles exists?
Or are we and our unicycles just a collective hallucination, as iPods are?

Is there anyway we can know anything for certain except that our own mental powers are functioning?

[Rezinha]

Is there anyway we can know anything for certain except that our own mental powers are functioning?

Nope.

[wickedbob]

Come to think of that, who knows that the Big Bang really happened?
I mean, ok, they can try to prove it and whatever but, was someone really there to tell us that it really happened?
I can't say that I believe in dinossaurs too... You know, who was there too to say it? I know there's a lot of proves and so, and I'm not saying that they didn't exist... I think maybe they existed but they could do things that we can't imagine! Who can say that I'm wrong saying the dinosaurs could talk and jump rope? Maybe they could, maybe they couldn't. We'll never know.

And... do we exist?
I mean, do we really ride unicycles? Do unicycles exists?
Or are we and our unicycles just a collective hallucination, as iPods are?


Blindly questioning everything can lead you to any where.

If we really never know, how can you be so sure that we will never know and that nobody knows? Those sounds like pretty bold statements to me.
Get what I'm saying?

The question remains, what difference does it make. I guess it depends on how you define 'real' and 'exist' and things like that. I feel happiness when I ride, I feel sadness when I see get hurt, I feel amazement when I read BTM's posts. I can feel the heat of a fire against my hands, the touch of a person, I can hear the birds sing in the mornings and the coyotes during the cold night.

That's 'real' enough for me. I 'really' ride and exist. I say that with 100% confidence.

Hallucinations exist, if I am that, I must exist as well. My perception of my existence may differ from other sources such as the source of the hallucinations, but they also differ from mine, I value my perception more... I mean they/it are hallucinating, how trust worthy can they/it be?

[wickedbob]

Nope.

How are you so certain?

[Rezinha]

I'm not saying anything for sure. I know nothing.
I got what you meant, but I have to say that just because you feel it, doesn't mean that it is real! Our 'senses' can fool us. You can sometimes see thing that don't exist, or listen things that don't exist either. I mean, we can be fooled all the time, and yet, we'll be sure it was for real.
So, actually, we can believe in nothing! You always see and hear things in your dream, so, if you're feeling it, it means that it is for real? It can be real, but then in another world. A world we can only reach when we are sleeping... But, you'll probably say "I'm pretty sure it is not real!" So how can you be sure that when we dream is the real world and, when we're awake, we're just hallucinating? Or vice versa?

[wickedbob]

Is there anyway we can know anything for certain except that our own mental powers are functioning?

Nope.

I'm not saying anything for sure. I know nothing.
I got what you meant, but I have to say that just because you feel it, doesn't mean that it is real! Our 'senses' can fool us. You can sometimes see thing that don't exist, or listen things that don't exist either. I mean, we can be fooled all the time, and yet, we'll be sure it was for real.
So, actually, we can believe in nothing! You always see and hear things in your dream, so, if you're feeling it, it means that it is for real? It can be real, but then in another world. A world we can only reach when we are sleeping... But, you'll probably say "I'm pretty sure it is not real!" So how can you be sure that when we dream is the real world and, when we're awake, we're just hallucinating? Or vice versa?

You seemed rather sure to me.
Just because in some instances something we see as random happens/ unknown, doesn't mean the other 99% of the time we can't be sure. If nine out of ten times my hand burns over fire, I know fire will burn my hand. I know I will feel it. I can believe that. I can believe I will not live forever. If you believe nothing, how can you grasp the concept to form it in the first place? I guess if you were a babbling idiot it could have came out by chance, at random, but I don't believe that.

Are you going to weight yourself and jump into water, because you can't believe your lungs will fill with water?

As I said endlessly questioning everything just to play the devils advocate can lead you anywhere you wish to go. There isn't a lot of merit behind it.

For one, dreams are not consistent. They go from phase to phase.
When I die in a dream I can still wake up and go on living. They can monitor the brain and actually see when dreaming is happening. When I die, I can't dream. That means dreams are dependant on living, so I can infer we are the 'real' world. Why, if dreams were the 'real world', depend on hallucinations?

[Rezinha]

I said 'nope' because we can't know anything for certain!
I'm not saying that I don't believe in gravity, that I don't believe that we need air to survive and etc. I'm just saying that our senses fool us! And we can deny that!
And I can't believe in anything just because I 'felt' it!
I knoe the physic laws of the world and I know I can fight against them! I can't beat interia, for example! Hahah
But, as you said, we live in a world of probability then! Because the probabillity of you burning yourself on the fire is 9/10. Maybe you won't burn yourself, we never know! Nothing is impossible! As nothing is certain! Is just more likely to happen then not to happen, but being more possible doesn't make is 110% certain.

[wickedbob]

I said 'nope' because we can't know anything for certain!
I'm not saying that I don't believe in gravity, that I don't believe that we need air to survive and etc. I'm just saying that our senses fool us! And we can deny that!
And I can't believe in anything just because I 'felt' it!
I knoe the physic laws of the world and I know I can fight against them! I can't beat interia, for example! Hahah
But, as you said, we live in a world of probability then! Because the probabillity of you burning yourself on the fire is 9/10. Maybe you won't burn yourself, we never know! Nothing is impossible! As nothing is certain! Is just more likely to happen then not to happen, but being more possible doesn't make is 110% certain.

... But you can know for certain that we can't? If you followed what you said, you would be indifferent. How can you be certain we can not be certain? That clearly does not make sense. So by saying no, your going against what you previously said.

Yes, our senses do, and we can deny that, though I do think it is better if we don't. Maybe not just because you felt it, but it's a damn good hint, I should think. There are other way to identify things/experiences (the burning of a hand), which are completely reproducible, how do you feel about these methods? I'm interested as to what you will respond with.

I never said we live in a world of probability. Excuse me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall.

I think the probability of you burning yourself in 100%, if done under the same conditions of course, that is a given, I just want to make it clear though. Explain how that would happen, not being burned of course. I'm certain that is impossible. We never know? Maybe you just never know...? 'Nothing is impossible as nothing is certain', Explain this better please. So anything can happen? You believe in laws which say this will happen, but you also believe that anything can happen? I'm lost. Enlighten me once more.

Are you saying if I do 5+5 enough I can get something other than 10? If anything is possible, it should be reasonable, though I don't understand that bit, since you do explain.

You've lost me. I would love to have a clear explanation. If you can't provide one, I'll understand.;)....:p?

[Rezinha]

OMFG!!

I'm saying that nothing is impossible because it is! You can think "it's impossible for me to travel through the space and land at Mars!" but it isn't! Because it can be a chance in a 2948901849084095890485098340, but, it is still a chance!

"Just because in some instances something we see as random happens/ unknown, doesn't mean the other 99% of the time we can't be sure. If nine out of ten times my hand burns over fire, I know fire will burn my hand."

And you're talking like a priest, f*ck. I'm not saying that you HAVE to believe me! You believe in what you want to believe, I'm just making my point of view!
I believe that nothing is impossible because we never know what will happen!
Are you sure you're not gonna live forever? Ok then, I'm just saying that I'm not! We don't know if someone can create a magical thing that will make us be imortal! I bet our parents thought it was impossible to have internet everywhere without having to use wires and, guess what? I'm on my notebook, WIRELESS!
There's a chance of the earth stopping and we fly through space? Yep, there is! Can be a chance in a 9184908394890328953, but it is still a chance!
So, I'm saying that we live in a world of probability, because things happen because they're more possible to happen like that, but doens't mean it will be always and forever and ever and bla bla like that!

And I'm TOTALLY ok that you think like that, and expect you to be ok with what I think too!
Have you ever thought in becoming a priest? You'd be pretty good at converting masses talking like that... Jeez... Just be nice, ok? I mean, you're talking to me like if I was trying to convince you that I'm right! I'm not right, it is just what I think! And now, you're trying to convince me that you're right, and I HATE that, because I NEVER do it to anyone!!! I'm just trying to say what I think, but you treat me like if I were a fucking crazy bitch trying to end up with your beautiful skeptical world!


And, I'M NOT FUCKING CERTAIN THAT I'M CERTAIN! I'M JUST SAYING WHAT I THINK! And I hope you understand that... ;)...:p

[SqueakyOnion]

As I said endlessly questioning everything just to play the devils advocate can lead you anywhere you wish to go. There isn't a lot of merit behind it.

I disagree. This kind of thinking is a sort of mental "sideways drifting," with no goal. It's a way of mental experimentation, creativity, and exploration. If nothing else, it's entertaining.

To live you life questioning everything would be...difficult, erratic, and pretty crazy. To let your mind wander and explore "absurd" ideas can, IMO, be both beneficial and fun.



I'm just saying that our senses fool us!

Our senses can fool us, but so can our own minds.

Your mind, your subconcious, colors your perceptions. This is why two different people interpret the same event/symbol in a completely different way.

A good example would be eyewitnesses - each eyewitness will swear that the suspect's shirt was a different color than the others swear it was.



You believe in laws which say this will happen, but you also believe that anything can happen? I'm lost. Enlighten me once more.

If you believe in gravity, you are sure that every time you drop a ball from your hand, it will fall toward the ground. You know this through past experiences - the ball has never fallen up. You live your life believing in gravity, because this belief has never failed you - yet.

However, one can also realize that the theory of gravity is just that - a theory. It's called a "law" because it's always acted the same way every time - so far. It's perfectly reasonably to assume that, at some point and place in space/time, the "law" of gravity could change.

An example would be volcanoes. One could live their entire life living, camping, hiking, whatever on a dormant/active volcanic mountain (Hawaii, anyone?). Your ancestors could have done the same thing, many generations back. Thus, you have no reason to assume that your beloved mountain will explode. You believe in the solidity and concreteness of the mountain - and live your life accordingly. It could, however, one day finally blow its top and burn you alive - even if you had now reason to believe it would.


Sorry to randomly chime in, but I thought this discussion was become rather fun :)

[Rezinha]

I disagree. This kind of thinking is a sort of mental "sideways drifting," with no goal. It's a way of mental experimentation, creativity, and exploration. If nothing else, it's entertaining.

To live you life questioning everything would be...difficult, erratic, and pretty crazy. To let your mind wander and explore "absurd" ideas can, IMO, be both beneficial and fun.





Our senses can fool us, but so can our own minds.

Your mind, your subconcious, colors your perceptions. This is why two different people interpret the same event/symbol in a completely different way.

A good example would be eyewitnesses - each eyewitness will swear that the suspect's shirt was a different color than the others swear it was.




If you believe in gravity, you are sure that every time you drop a ball from your hand, it will fall toward the ground. You know this through past experiences - the ball has never fallen up. You live your life believing in gravity, because this belief has never failed you - yet.

However, one can also realize that the theory of gravity is just that - a theory. It's called a "law" because it's always acted the same way every time - so far. It's perfectly reasonably to assume that, at some point and place in space/time, the "law" of gravity could change.

An example would be volcanoes. One could live their entire life living, camping, hiking, whatever on a dormant/active volcanic mountain (Hawaii, anyone?). Your ancestors could have done the same thing, many generations back. Thus, you have no reason to assume that your beloved mountain will explode. You believe in the solidity and concreteness of the mountain - and live your life accordingly. It could, however, one day finally blow its top and burn you alive - even if you had now reason to believe it would.


Sorry to randomly chime in, but I thought this discussion was become rather fun :)

I totally agree with you.

And I'm sorry if I'm not expressing myself well enough for everybody to understand... I hope you understand that I'm not a native english speaker.

[Rezinha]

And you don't need to apologize! Heheh
The more people, more fun it will be! The more opinions we get, the more we improve our thoughts!

But, whoever posts here, just be nice and have respect! Don't be ironical and don't try to convice other that you're totally right.

"There's more than two ways of thinking, more than one way of knowing, more than two ways of being!"

[wickedbob]

OMFG!!

I'm saying that nothing is impossible because it is! You can think "it's impossible for me to travel through the space and land at Mars!" but it isn't! Because it can be a chance in a 2948901849084095890485098340, but, it is still a chance!

"Just because in some instances something we see as random happens/ unknown, doesn't mean the other 99% of the time we can't be sure. If nine out of ten times my hand burns over fire, I know fire will burn my hand."

And you're talking like a priest, f*ck. I'm not saying that you HAVE to believe me! You believe in what you want to believe, I'm just making my point of view!
I believe that nothing is impossible because we never know what will happen!
Are you sure you're not gonna live forever? Ok then, I'm just saying that I'm not! We don't know if someone can create a magical thing that will make us be imortal! I bet our parents thought it was impossible to have internet everywhere without having to use wires and, guess what? I'm on my notebook, WIRELESS!
There's a chance of the earth stopping and we fly through space? Yep, there is! Can be a chance in a 9184908394890328953, but it is still a chance!
So, I'm saying that we live in a world of probability, because things happen because they're more possible to happen like that, but doens't mean it will be always and forever and ever and bla bla like that!

And I'm TOTALLY ok that you think like that, and expect you to be ok with what I think too!
Have you ever thought in becoming a priest? You'd be pretty good at converting masses talking like that... Jeez... Just be nice, ok? I mean, you're talking to me like if I was trying to convince you that I'm right! I'm not right, it is just what I think! And now, you're trying to convince me that you're right, and I HATE that, because I NEVER do it to anyone!!! I'm just trying to say what I think, but you treat me like if I were a fucking crazy bitch trying to end up with your beautiful skeptical world!


And, I'M NOT FUCKING CERTAIN THAT I'M CERTAIN! I'M JUST SAYING WHAT I THINK! And I hope you understand that... ;)...:p


So nothing is impossible because it is impossible? 5+5 can equal 39 because it can not equal 39?

How do you know there is a chance? Please give me proof. I see no chance. I am not enlightened. Pulling random statics out of the air doesn't do much, especially when arguing what is possible.

Please tell me how I am talking like a priest? How do they talk, stern, joyful? Was that a compliment, or am I left to come to my own conclusions?

I understand your conveying your view/thoughts, but your not explaining it. Your not telling me why, or answering my questions and providing anything of substance to this argument.

As I said, maybe you don't ever know what will happen, but I'm sure a bunch of people at least have a good guess. Uh, I'm pretty sure... no never mind. I bet they did. Honestly.

How is there a chance the earth will stop and we will fly through space? What would cause this? You had better tell government officials, this is serious stuff here, you know. You lost me with the last part. We live in a world of probability, so we don't live in a world of laws and such which you claimed to believe in?

I am 100% fine with what you think, I just want to know why. If it has some substance and reason, I might give it a try. I need to know the temperature of the water before I jump in.

I never did think of that, as I am an atheist of sorts. Though you seem to be the one more priest like in my eyes, being able to believe anything can happen. My beliefs will not let such things happen in my noggin. Your system seems to be the most popular, though I wish I could convert masses, with religions saying anything can happen and many following them, you stand on firm ground, though it does pain me.

Sorry if I came off like that, my apologies. I'm not forcing anything onto you, I'm simply providing you with my thoughts, I though we could have a discussion. The way you think really does interest me greatly, I would like to know what so many think that way, but the way things are going I will never know.
I can tell your just saying what you think. I just wondered why you think that, that's all.
I do, but I don't. In a way I understand, in a way I do not.

[wickedbob]

I disagree. This kind of thinking is a sort of mental "sideways drifting," with no goal. It's a way of mental experimentation, creativity, and exploration. If nothing else, it's entertaining.

To live you life questioning everything would be...difficult, erratic, and pretty crazy. To let your mind wander and explore "absurd" ideas can, IMO, be both beneficial and fun.





Our senses can fool us, but so can our own minds.

Your mind, your subconcious, colors your perceptions. This is why two different people interpret the same event/symbol in a completely different way.

A good example would be eyewitnesses - each eyewitness will swear that the suspect's shirt was a different color than the others swear it was.




If you believe in gravity, you are sure that every time you drop a ball from your hand, it will fall toward the ground. You know this through past experiences - the ball has never fallen up. You live your life believing in gravity, because this belief has never failed you - yet.

However, one can also realize that the theory of gravity is just that - a theory. It's called a "law" because it's always acted the same way every time - so far. It's perfectly reasonably to assume that, at some point and place in space/time, the "law" of gravity could change.

An example would be volcanoes. One could live their entire life living, camping, hiking, whatever on a dormant/active volcanic mountain (Hawaii, anyone?). Your ancestors could have done the same thing, many generations back. Thus, you have no reason to assume that your beloved mountain will explode. You believe in the solidity and concreteness of the mountain - and live your life accordingly. It could, however, one day finally blow its top and burn you alive - even if you had now reason to believe it would.


Sorry to randomly chime in, but I thought this discussion was become rather fun :)


I'm honored. Your more than welcome to, anytime.

Though I do agree a bit, I still think it can lead you anywhere, and lacks merit. It's not useless, and should not be thought of as such, but going along like that IMO is unreasonable, and seems like somebody just wanting to play the devils advocate.. most of the time, not ever time. I should know, as I do love playing it all the time at school, getting everybody else in a tiff.

I get what your saying with the volcanoes, but IMO, I think a strong probability and a law are clearly different, I suppose I just assumed everybody was the same. What I mean is, I think if I lived on a volcano, it would be clear to me that it could go. I could be totally wrong and understand what your getting at though.

Don't be worried to make me out to be an idiot.
Don't tell anyone, but I think most people on here already know, shh....:o

[SqueakyOnion]

I'm honored. Your more than welcome to, anytime.

Though I do agree a bit, I still think it can lead you anywhere, and lacks merit. It's not useless, and should not be thought of as such, but going along like that IMO is unreasonable,

It's definitely an unreasonable way to live your life on a day-to-day basis. The "question everything" line of thinking is a way to explore and open your mind in a way that positively effects your day-to-day life. I suppose its more of a means to an end than an end in and of itself.



I get what your saying with the volcanoes, but IMO, I think a strong probability and a law are clearly different, I suppose I just assumed everybody was the same. What I mean is, I think if I lived on a volcano, it would be clear to me that it could go. I could be totally wrong and understand what your getting at though.

If it you lived on a volcano, it would be clear that it could go because of what you know (or believe, really) scientifically. Our scientists are able to understand why volcanos erupt and thus can make at least general predictions about their future behavior.

Suppose for a moment that you are a pre-scientific man. You have no knowledge of what a volcano is, or that a mountain could ever explode. All you know is that one day you are living on the mountain that you and your ancestors have lived their entire lives on, and the next you wake up to the sight of that mountain exploding before your eyes. You had no conception that it could even happen, as the mountain has always[I] been there, in your experience.

In a way, we are still that "pre-scientific man." Although we now have at least begun to advance in science, there is still an infinite amount that we do not know. Recent (sometimes theoretical) discoveries like quarks and dark matter are just beginning to open the doors to what we have no knowledge of. For all we know, some weird space particle could collide with the earth and completely reverse the laws of gravity, some particle we have no knowledge of and possibly even have no way of measuring or detecting.


In response to Rezinha's posts, you keep bringing up those simple math problems. 5+5 will always equal 10 because math, and thus logic, is just a construct of the human mind. It helps us understand and function in the reality that we experience. I believe that Rezinha and I are referring to things outside of human construction - things we experience with our senses. Mathematics and logic is entirely contained in the minds of humans - it is a method humans have devised to better understand what their senses are perceiving.



I get what your saying with the volcanoes, but IMO, I think a strong probability and a law are clearly different,

A law [I]is a strong probability. A very strong probability. So strong that we call it a "law." So strong that many no longer realize that a law is just a very strong probability.

They are "clearly different" in your mind because you could imagine one happening and not the other. Even though I haven't missed a freemount in weeks (I'm so cool :cool::D), you (and I) could most definitely see me missing my next freemount - because we understand how and why this could happen, even though based on past experience, it is very probable that I will NOT miss my next freemount.

Unlike freemounting, you cannot see gravity failing. This is because you have never experienced it failing, or changing. Thus, it is inconceivable for you that it ever could. What you must realize though is that, even though you don't know how, when, or why gravity might fail, it could. There is so much about the cosmos that we just don't understand that it would be arrogant and blatantly un-scientific to declare that we can be 100% certain about anything, because there are too many forces at work that we have no understanding of.

You can't "prove" gravity. All you can do is rack up more evidence supporting it. Proving gravity would require measuring its consistency in every instance, ever. This is simply not possible, for a multitude of reasons.


Rezinha's posts pretty well fall in line with what I'm saying. She expresses the same or similar ideas in a more direct way. Her references to probability are a less-wordy way of saying what I've been trying to say. She's basically saying that we just can't ever know for 100% certain that things will continue to happen as they always have - even if we have no reason to believe they will change.

I also am pretty impressed with her English - although she uses much "internet lingo," which I am not fond of, she comes off as very fluent and is easy to understand. Occasionally, I come across details in grammar and syntax that could be improved upon, but her English is much better than some of the native English speakers I attend university with (no lie). I did not peg her as a non-native speaker.


If anything needs clarification, please let me know. I haven't slept in about 28 hours :o

[tobbogonist]

If i shunned belief would i have to forfeit my pod-i ?

I dont believe in God but i still enjoy a good religious public holiday as much as the next person.

[Rezinha]

I quit.

I don't believe in God either.

And I don't want to discuss because you're being ironic.
I can't give you a proof of anything and I don't want too.

And you're talking like a priest because you're trying to convice me that your thoughts are better than mine. I never said it was wrong, I just said I think differently.
That's it.

I would answer all your questions, but I'm pretty sure you're gonna reply being fucking ironical again and I'm tired of your ridiculous sarcasm.

[wickedbob]

I quit.

I don't believe in God either.

And I don't want to discuss because you're being ironic.
I can't give you a proof of anything and I don't want too.

And you're talking like a priest because you're trying to convice me that your thoughts are better than mine. I never said it was wrong, I just said I think differently.
That's it.

I would answer all your questions, but I'm pretty sure you're gonna reply being fucking ironical again and I'm tired of your ridiculous sarcasm.

Alright, fair enough.

It's really easy to misunderstand and to be misunderstood acroos the internet.

[Rezinha]

It's definitely an unreasonable way to live your life on a day-to-day basis. The "question everything" line of thinking is a way to explore and open your mind in a way that positively effects your day-to-day life. I suppose its more of a means to an end than an end in and of itself.




If it you lived on a volcano, it would be clear that it could go because of what you know (or believe, really) scientifically. Our scientists are able to understand why volcanos erupt and thus can make at least general predictions about their future behavior.

Suppose for a moment that you are a pre-scientific man. You have no knowledge of what a volcano is, or that a mountain could ever explode. All you know is that one day you are living on the mountain that you and your ancestors have lived their entire lives on, and the next you wake up to the sight of that mountain exploding before your eyes. You had no conception that it could even happen, as the mountain has always[I] been there, in your experience.

In a way, we are still that "pre-scientific man." Although we now have at least begun to advance in science, there is still an infinite amount that we do not know. Recent (sometimes theoretical) discoveries like quarks and dark matter are just beginning to open the doors to what we have no knowledge of. For all we know, some weird space particle could collide with the earth and completely reverse the laws of gravity, some particle we have no knowledge of and possibly even have no way of measuring or detecting.


In response to Rezinha's posts, you keep bringing up those simple math problems. 5+5 will always equal 10 because math, and thus logic, is just a construct of the human mind. It helps us understand and function in the reality that we experience. I believe that Rezinha and I are referring to things outside of human construction - things we experience with our senses. Mathematics and logic is entirely contained in the minds of humans - it is a method humans have devised to better understand what their senses are perceiving.




A law [I]is a strong probability. A very strong probability. So strong that we call it a "law." So strong that many no longer realize that a law is just a very strong probability.

They are "clearly different" in your mind because you could imagine one happening and not the other. Even though I haven't missed a freemount in weeks (I'm so cool :cool::D), you (and I) could most definitely see me missing my next freemount - because we understand how and why this could happen, even though based on past experience, it is very probable that I will NOT miss my next freemount.

Unlike freemounting, you cannot see gravity failing. This is because you have never experienced it failing, or changing. Thus, it is inconceivable for you that it ever could. What you must realize though is that, even though you don't know how, when, or why gravity might fail, it could. There is so much about the cosmos that we just don't understand that it would be arrogant and blatantly un-scientific to declare that we can be 100% certain about anything, because there are too many forces at work that we have no understanding of.

You can't "prove" gravity. All you can do is rack up more evidence supporting it. Proving gravity would require measuring its consistency in every instance, ever. This is simply not possible, for a multitude of reasons.


Rezinha's posts pretty well fall in line with what I'm saying. She expresses the same or similar ideas in a more direct way. Her references to probability are a less-wordy way of saying what I've been trying to say. She's basically saying that we just can't ever know for 100% certain that things will continue to happen as they always have - even if we have no reason to believe they will change.

I also am pretty impressed with her English - although she uses much "internet lingo," which I am not fond of, she comes off as very fluent and is easy to understand. Occasionally, I come across details in grammar and syntax that could be improved upon, but her English is much better than some of the native English speakers I attend university with (no lie). I did not peg her as a non-native speaker.


If anything needs clarification, please let me know. I haven't slept in about 28 hours :o

You just explained everything I was trying to say! Hehe

And sorry about my English :(
I promise I'll improve it!
I can understand everything people write here (except UniGoth posts), but sometimes I get nervous and can't find the right words and then I just write something that is similar to the word I want to write, but it does not have the same meaning! Heheh

[wickedbob]

In a way, we are still that "pre-scientific man." Although we now have at least begun to advance in science, there is still an infinite amount that we do not know. Recent (sometimes theoretical) discoveries like quarks and dark matter are just beginning to open the doors to what we have no knowledge of. For all we know, some weird space particle could collide with the earth and completely reverse the laws of gravity, some particle we have no knowledge of and possibly even have no way of measuring or detecting.


I get what you mean, still don't agree exactly. It does offer some explanation, as to why anybody would think like that, which is what I was looking for.

Anything starting with 'for all we know' is a tad dodgy to me.





In response to Rezinha's posts, you keep bringing up those simple math problems. 5+5 will always equal 10 because math, and thus logic, is just a construct of the human mind. It helps us understand and function in the reality that we experience. I believe that Rezinha and I are referring to things outside of human construction - things we experience with our senses. Mathematics and logic is entirely contained in the minds of humans - it is a method humans have devised to better understand what their senses are perceiving.

It may be contained in our minds, but it can explain things we experience with out scenes. Maybe I've missed the point here, I've got an inkling I have, excuse me, but my intelligence is limited, my friend.

I believe in some ways humans do construct experiences, including ones had with our senses. The line between the two isn't clear for me, if you think you can make it clear go ahead, but you've got a thick skull to get through, better scream.



A law is a strong probability. A very strong probability. So strong that we call it a "law." So strong that many no longer realize that a law is just a very strong probability.


That is true. Maybe my definition of a scientific law is wrong, I'll have to go research some. I've always thought of it as being under these circumstance, not really accounting for outside influences...if that makes sense at all. I'm sure it's wrong. Not being a scientist myself, I'm sure my definitions our all mixed up.



They are "clearly different" in your mind because you could imagine one happening and not the other. Even though I haven't missed a freemount in weeks (I'm so cool :cool::D), you (and I) could most definitely see me missing my next freemount - because we understand how and why this could happen, even though based on past experience, it is very probable that I will NOT miss my next freemount.

Unlike freemounting, you cannot see gravity failing. This is because you have never experienced it failing, or changing. Thus, it is inconceivable for you that it ever could. What you must realize though is that, even though you don't know how, when, or why gravity might fail, it could. There is so much about the cosmos that we just don't understand that it would be arrogant and blatantly un-scientific to declare that we can be 100% certain about anything, because there are too many forces at work that we have no understanding of.

You can't "prove" gravity. All you can do is rack up more evidence supporting it. Proving gravity would require measuring its consistency in every instance, ever. This is simply not possible, for a multitude of reasons.

You miss a freemount? Never.
I wouldn't say inconceivable. Would it be gravity failing, or something that regularly happens we just lack knowledge on? Or would that the same thing? She came off as saying there is a chase it will randomly quit for no reason, which is inconceivable to me. Recognizing something, which we don't understand take place is a little different, at least to me.



Rezinha's posts pretty well fall in line with what I'm saying. She expresses the same or similar ideas in a more direct way. Her references to probability are a less-wordy way of saying what I've been trying to say. She's basically saying that we just can't ever know for 100% certain that things will continue to happen as they always have - even if we have no reason to believe they will change.


Ok, maybe not everything, but I feel there is a lot to be certain about. As in putting your hand in fire will cause it to burn, even if you can't feel it. I see a difference in recognizing our ignorance toward the world which we live and accepting it, thus opening us up to more radical/ unknown ideas, but at some point your just playing the devils advocate for the sake of it. IMO


If anything needs clarification, please let me know. I haven't slept in about 28 hours :o

My schedule is rather goofy as well. From the vacation I suspect?

[SqueakyOnion]

Anything starting with 'for all we know' is a tad dodgy to me.


I felt the same way when I read my post after posting it. All I was trying to say was that there is so much that we don't know about and have yet to discover, that it's arrogant and foolish to assume we can make absolutely accurate predictions about the future.



It may be contained in our minds, but it can explain things we experience with out scenes. Maybe I've missed the point here, I've got an inkling I have, excuse me, but my intelligence is limited, my friend.

That's exactly what I was trying to say. Math and logic is not sensory input, but a way or organizing, classifying, and understand sensory input.

"Experience," in my mind, is the recollection of sensory input after it's been processed by the brain using math, logic, or other cognitive functions of the human mind. Sensory input is innate. Experience has meaning. Though, not all "experience" is a result of sensory input - but a lot is.




I wouldn't say inconceivable. Would it be gravity failing, or something that regularly happens we just lack knowledge on? Or would that the same thing? She came off as saying there is a chase it will randomly quit for no reason, which is inconceivable to me. Recognizing something, which we don't understand take place is a little different, at least to me.

Although I don't want to put words in Rezinha's mouth, I can at least say for me that things may "randomly" change, but there must be a cause. It is completely beyond my ability to conceive of there not being a cause. Cause and effect is one of the basic ideas operating in this universe - and although on an academic level I must acknowledge that it may be possible to have one without the other, I simply have trouble wrapping my mind around the idea.




Ok, maybe not everything, but I feel there is a lot to be certain about. As in putting your hand in fire will cause it to burn, even if you can't feel it. I see a difference in recognizing our ignorance toward the world which we live and accepting it, thus opening us up to more radical/ unknown ideas, but at some point your just playing the devils advocate for the sake of it. IMO

Right - one can safely assum that if one touches a hot stove, one's hand will be burned. It's highly impractical to live your life doubting everything.

Although I don't do it often, I do sometimes play devil's advocate - especially when the person with whom I am having a discussion is particularly thick and stubborn. It kind of requires one to be a bit abrasive in conversation, which is not in my character, and thus I rarely really try to play devil's advocate. Instead, I just try to ask thought-provoking questions.



My schedule is rather goofy as well. From the vacation I suspect?

Yeap, helping my folks move...quite a tedious process with 30 years of accumulated STUFF...

[Rezinha]

I did NOT say it wouldn't have a cause. I just said that it could stop, all of sudden, but it doesn't means it wouldn't have a cause! Like volcanoes. They blow up all of sudden, but they have a cause to blow up!