Those who believe in god, if it was proven there was no Gd would you live differently

[wickedbob]

So, I searched and did not see a thread for this. So if it was some how proven that god does not exist would you live differently? How would you see the world and religion after this? Maybe you would feel foolish? Would you keep on believing just to keep your self on the straight and narrow or would you toss away everything you ever thought about god?

Sorry if this is a repost, I searched, honest.


Sorry for the lack of an O in the title, I thought I hit spell check to fix that.

[Jerrick]

If there was an 100% absolute fact that, in my case, Christian god does not exist, I would continue to live the way I do know. I think I have a good set of morals, and im sure there is a good amount of Christian teachings that influenced how I live. If the religion was false and god didnt exist, the teachings still stand for me. I like the way I live my life, and wouldnt change that.

How would I look at the world? Im not sure, probably just a little bit different, but im having troubles visualizing how I would actually think. Religion? Well, coming from believing that the religion I believe in now is the one and true religion, to having it not be real, then id probably just not worry about religion and all other labels.

Id feel a little bit foolish. But we believe and defend a lot of things that end up becoming pointless. Id be in denial at first, that I know. Im the type who goes out to find as much fact about a subject when im told about it, just to make sure everything is sound. I wouldnt feel horribly foolish though.

Like I said above, if it was 100% certain, no way to argue around it then I would leave it behind. it would be a toss, it would be a "Ready.. OK.. 1.... 2.... 3.... sure you got this? hey, im just making sure. Ok. Here goes. 1... Wait! Let me go to the bathroom first.. K. Back. Catch!!"

Right now, im 100% certain with my belief, and its an easy things for me to live with. If I was 100% the other way, I think it would be the same and be a pretty simple/easy concept.

[wickedbob]

Interesting response. Nobody else? I suppose the same goes for atheist, the questioner reversed of course.

If god was proven to be real without a doubt I don't think I would change, depending on how he was, if we even knew that. If we just knew there was one I would still object he's anything like most seem to think he is. If god was actually like the one you see is a few religions where you must pray and follow him I'd probably just tell everybody to go shove it. If god was that much of a prick, imo, I'd rather go to hell.

[BillyTheMountain]

If there was an 100% absolute fact that, in my case, Christian god does not exist, I would continue to live the way I do know.

OMG!!!

You distinguish christian GOD!!

Meaning for you there are other GODS??!!

When you say you would continue to live the way I do now, do you mean you would continue to pray to GOD? Or do you not pray to GOD now?

Would you continue to express gratitude to the Creator? OR do you not do that now?

Billy

[johnfoss]

So if it was some how proven that god does not exist would you live differently?No, and I think neither would most of the rest of the world. They would simply refuse to believe it. People refuse to believe a lot of things. Like the rise in global temperatures. There are still people who will point to an exceptionally cold day (or season) and think that's an example of climate. Just one example.

Whoever offered the proof of this would be lynched and called into ridicule, regardless of any validity or facts. That's how humans respond to major change.

[Jerrick]

OMG!!!

You distinguish christian GOD!!

Meaning for you there are other GODS??!!

When you say you would continue to live the way I do now, do you mean you would continue to pray to GOD? Or do you not pray to GOD now?

Would you continue to express gratitude to the Creator? OR do you not do that now?

Billy

I was just pointing out that I was Christian and the Christian God is the God I am talking about in this thread. I dont believe there are other Gods. (No offense to anyone else's religion and to what they believe.)

I pray to God now, although not as much as I feel I should. If there was no god, I dont think I would pray really. Im sure I would do something like prayer still, almost diary like. Im not sure what to call it right now, but like when you see an accident on the side of the road and just think "Man, I hope they are ok." It would be like that, with out being directed towards God or having a relationship with God.

With no God, wouldnt my creator mainly just be my mom and dad, and some evolution? Id express gratitude to them.

[SirCharles1st]

Speaking from an anthropologic point of view, a big benefit to most major religions, is that they produce a decent sense of morals and society. They teach how to live and work as a good, often productive society. If God was proven to not exist, then I believe that the ideals of the religions would still be passed on and taught, though some of the ritualistic aspects might be dropped for the natural tendency to conserve energy, resources, and time.

From a psychological point of view, religion can help give a good sense of wellbeing and mental stability. For example, if a person has had hard life(parents being murdered, family and friends getting arrested or killed, school teachers and peers hating them, can't pay bills), then they might take refuge thinking that God or whatever higher power(s) they believe in are shaping them and must have a reason for them to experience that. Therefore, they find reason to not commit suicide to end their suffering. It can be a big benefit for mental health by taking refuge in the belief that God has a purpose for them. If God was proven to not exist, then like was said earlier, some people would go into denial, because that would destroy their mental safeguard against what could be total breakdown. So religion can help as a mental defence, and some people might not like their defenses being broken.

[BillyTheMountain]

I was just pointing out that I was Christian and the Christian God is the God I am talking about in this thread. I dont believe there are other Gods. (No offense to anyone else's religion and to what they believe.)

I pray to God now, although not as much as I feel I should. If there was no god, I dont think I would pray really. Im sure I would do something like prayer still, almost diary like. Im not sure what to call it right now, but like when you see an accident on the side of the road and just think "Man, I hope they are ok." It would be like that, with out being directed towards God or having a relationship with God.

With no God, wouldnt my creator mainly just be my mom and dad, and some evolution? Id express gratitude to them.

Jerrick,

Wow!

Seems like BIG changes. I mean, your mom and dad gave you your body and life, but certainly not the stars, the whole world, sex partners, unicycles, i don't think. Seems like a very different level of gratitude.

Thanks for playing!!

Billy

[JJuggle]

Seems like BIG changes. I mean, your mom and dad gave you your body and life, but certainly not the stars, the whole world, sex partners, unicycles, i don't think. Seems like a very different level of gratitude.
You know Billy, you annoy me even when your comments aren't directed at me.

Thanks.

[Goats_On_Unicycles]

For me, religion teaches me how to conduct my life.
I don't care if God exists or not. It'd be cool if S/he did tho... that'd be fun.

[BillyTheMountain]

No, and I think neither would most of the rest of the world. They would simply refuse to believe it. People refuse to believe a lot of things. Like the rise in global temperatures. There are still people who will point to an exceptionally cold day (or season) and think that's an example of climate. Just one example.

Whoever offered the proof of this would be lynched and called into ridicule, regardless of any validity or facts. That's how humans respond to major change.

Well, most of us believe the Sun God is the center of the solar system, even though Copernicus didn't get tenure for publishing that.


You know Billy, you annoy me even when your comments aren't directed at me.

Thanks.

Raphael,

I'd love to hear more about that from you. Would you care to say what specifically annoys you about my posts?

Your posts amuse or enlighten me, and I hope mine are taken in good spirit, as they are intended.

Brother, can you say "Burger King of the Universe" in Hebrew? [For others who are not following ALL these threads, that's a veiled reference to another post Raphael made to me today, and not a slur.]

Billy

[JJuggle]

I'd love to hear more about that from you. Would you care to say what specifically annoys you about my posts?

Your posts amuse or enlighten me, and I hope mine are taken in good spirit, as they are intended.

Brother, can you say "Burger King of the Universe" in Hebrew? [For others who are not following ALL these threads, that's a veiled reference to another post Raphael made to me today, and not a slur.]
Billy,

I hope my annoyance is taken in the loving spirit in which it is meant. I'll pass on elaborating.

There is almost nothing I can say in hebrew including the phrase above.

[uni57]

I am reluctant to make yet another religion thread, so maybe we can expand this one? ...

It would be VERY interesting to turn the question around and direct it at the atheists --

To the atheists: If God were proven to exist, would you live your life differently? What would you think? How would you feel? Would you like it? Would you pray? Go to church? Would you ask God why he can be such a shit at times? Would you demand that he answer to his crimes against humanity or would you try to love this seemingly demonic, egotistical entity (remember all the OT smiting, wrath, and flooding, not to mention homophobia and anger problems quite unbecoming of a supreme being)?

[dan de man]

Interesting response. Nobody else? I suppose the same goes for atheist, the questioner reversed of course.

If god was proven to be real without a doubt I don't think I would change, depending on how he was, if we even knew that. If we just knew there was one I would still object he's anything like most seem to think he is. If god was actually like the one you see is a few religions where you must pray and follow him I'd probably just tell everybody to go shove it. If god was that much of a prick, imo, I'd rather go to hell.

then i would pray every day and visit church every sunday

[JJuggle]

I am reluctant to make yet another religion thread, so maybe we can expand this one? ...

It would be VERY interesting to turn the question around and direct it at the atheists --

To the atheists: If God were proven to exist, would you live your life differently? What would you think? How would you feel? Would you like it? Would you pray? Go to church? Would you ask God why he can be such a shit at times? Would you demand that he answer to his crimes against humanity or would you try to love this seemingly demonic, egotistical entity (remember all the OT smiting, wrath, and flooding, not to mention homophobia and anger problems quite unbecoming of a supreme being)?
I'm going to avoid this question Dave. If God were proven to exist, the essence of what God is, an unknowable force whose very existence requires faith, would cease to exist. Not only would atheists need to reevaluate their lives and behavior but so would the faithful.

If God were proven to exist the question of what God expects of us would still persist. Is that answered as well? Are we assuming the Christian God of the old and new testament?

[BillyTheMountain]

then i would pray every day and visit church every sunday

Even if GOD wanted you to go to Temple on Shabbus, or the mosque on Jumah?

I'm going to avoid this question Dave.

Raphael,

You should be a politician, the way you avoid answering questions! Or a librarian!

[uni57]

I'm going to avoid this question Dave. If God were proven to exist, the essence of what God is, an unknowable force whose very existence requires faith, would cease to exist. Not only would atheists need to reevaluate their lives and behavior but so would the faithful.

If God were proven to exist the question of what God expects of us would still persist. Is that answered as well? Are we assuming the Christian God of the old and new testament?Faith would no longer be necessary. Faith would no longer be a virtue, although those who were in the past faithful will be smiled upon. He is the God of the Old and New Testaments. He affirms that every word of the Bible is true. God has ended his silence. He had to in order to reveal himself to us. So perhaps he is willing to have two-way conversations instead of those one-way prayers.

[uni57]

You should be a politician, the way you avoid answering questions! Or a librarian!Billy, if that is the criterion for being a good politician, then I submit that Raphael has failed. A true politician would have answered a question of his own choosing. And at the end, I wouldn't have noticed that he didn't answer my original question.

[JJuggle]

Faith would no longer be necessary. Faith would no longer be a virtue, although those who were in the past faithful will be smiled upon. He is the God of the Old and New Testaments. He affirms that every word of the Bible is true. God has ended his silence. He had to in order to reveal himself to us. So perhaps he is willing to have two-way conversations instead of those one-way prayers.
I guess in that case I'd have to hope that there was still room in His heart for a few prodigal sons.

And at the end, I wouldn't have noticed that he didn't answer my original question.
That is what is really so infuriating about the whole process. We know they don't answer the question asked. They know they don't answer the question asked. And they know that we know and we know that they know we know that they haven't answered the question asked. I might as well go into a diner, order a grilled cheese and fries, get a cheeseburger and onion rings, eat it, pay for it, and thank them for the meal.

[BillyTheMountain]

He is the God of the Old and New Testaments. He affirms that every word of the Bible is true.

Then this applies:

Even if GOD wanted you to go to Temple on Shabbus, or the mosque on Jumah?

[tomblackwood]

It would be VERY interesting to turn the question around and direct it at the atheists --

To the atheists: If God were proven to exist, would you live your life differently? What would you think? How would you feel? Would you like it? Would you pray? Go to church? Would you ask God why he can be such a shit at times? Would you demand that he answer to his crimes against humanity or would you try to love this seemingly demonic, egotistical entity (remember all the OT smiting, wrath, and flooding, not to mention homophobia and anger problems quite unbecoming of a supreme being)?
Great question. Whether I would behave differently if God were proven to exist would depend on what type of God he/she/it turned out to be. If it was the omniscient, omnipotent, yet singularly conscious God that created everything then kicked back to watch the experiment unfold, well, then I'd just keep doing what I'm doing as part of that experiment, and let God watch whatever parts he/she/it sees fit. But if it turned out that He was the Old Testament God with all the wrath and smiting and Heaven/Hell consequences, and turning of curious women into pillars of salt, then I might mind my Ps and Qs a bit more. But I'd probably get sick of constantly having to behave as He ordains, and eventually just invite all my friends over for a corn-on-the-cob party, melt some butter, then tell Him to kiss my a$$. They could salt the corn with what He turns me into, then leave the rest for the neighborhood deer.

[Axi]

To the atheists: If God were proven to exist, would you live your life differently? What would you think? How would you feel? Would you like it? Would you pray? Go to church? Would you ask God why he can be such a shit at times? Would you demand that he answer to his crimes against humanity or would you try to love this seemingly demonic, egotistical entity (remember all the OT smiting, wrath, and flooding, not to mention homophobia and anger problems quite unbecoming of a supreme being)?

There is two chances:

1: I would kill myself, because I just couldnt live with monster, who throws everybody who he just dont like to hell.

2: I would became a christian who goes to church every sunday and prays every day and so on.

Anyway I would really get depressed.

[BillyTheMountain]

turning of curious women into pillars of salt. They could salt the corn with what He turns me into, then leave the rest for the neighborhood deer.

Lot's wife turned back cuz she liked Sodomy.

Do you mean curious, as in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Am_Curious_(Yellow) I am Curious (Yellow)?

There is two chances:

1: I would kill myself, because I just couldnt live with monster, who throws everybody who he just dont like to hell.

2: I would became a christian who goes to church every sunday and prays every day and so on.

Anyway I would really get depressed.

Hmmm, if the choice was between church on Sunday for 45 minutes, versus working a job I hate 40 hours/week under a boss/monster, I think any reasonable person would choose church, and not be too very depressed about it.

[uni57]

Hmmm, if the choice was between church on Sunday for 45 minutes, versus working a job I hate 40 hours/week under a boss/monster, I think any reasonable person would choose church, and not be too very depressed about it.No, Billy. You can't fool God. You have to love him and accept him into your heart. But you can't dictate emotions, can you? You can't be coerced into a feeling. Hence the reprehensible problem -- be a genuine subservient, ass-kisser (a.k.a. worshipper) or be damned forever by this supposedly "all-loving" tyrant of a God.

[kokomo]

I myself do beileve in God however, I don't change my life as other people do. I don't go to church or anything like that so if there was proven no God then i wouldn't really live differently. :P

-Kokomo

[1-wheeled-grape]

To the atheists: If God were proven to exist, would you live your life differently? What would you think? How would you feel? Would you like it? Would you pray? Go to church? Would you ask God why he can be such a shit at times? Would you demand that he answer to his crimes against humanity or would you try to love this seemingly demonic, egotistical entity (remember all the OT smiting, wrath, and flooding, not to mention homophobia and anger problems quite unbecoming of a supreme being)?
I think even if it was proved that there was a god, I would continue not to believe in it... It's been fine so far so why change?

[BillyTheMountain]

I myself do beileve in God however, I don't change my life as other people do. I don't go to church or anything like that so if there was proven no God then i wouldn't really live differently. :P

-Kokomo

You don't pray? You don't feel gratitude?

No, Billy. You can't fool God. You have to love him and accept him into your heart. But you can't dictate emotions, can you? You can't be coerced into a feeling. Hence the reprehensible problem -- be a genuine subservient, ass-kisser (a.k.a. worshipper) or be damned forever by this supposedly "all-loving" tyrant of a God.

Dave,

You happen to be offering the "born-again" method.

Catholics and most Protestants just have to show up, and try to stay awake, and might feel free to offer critical comments on the sermon if they listened to it.

There's a poem "Guest House" by Rumi, that probably expresses one's relationship to an all-giving GOD. Ever read it?

Why is it Atheists put tyrants in power over the people, and construct GOD as a tyrant?

Tyrants cannot respect sincere love. No one loves a tyrant. I can see how some who experience GOD this way might resolve the double-bind by denying GOD. I have complete empathy for that maneuver, seeing it their way.

I think even if it was proved that there was a god, I would continue not to believe in it... It's been fine so far so why change?

Same with global warming, right. They proved it's true, but people just keep on burning fossil fuels and heating up the Earth.

We could start a new thread "they proved global warming. now will you change anything?

Billy

[1-wheeled-grape]

Yes Billy but global warning is a physical thing... in my mind God is not. It is just something people decide to live their lives by.

[BillyTheMountain]

Yes Billy but global warning is a physical thing... in my mind God is not. It is just something people decide to live their lives by.

The Guest House by Rumi, a religious poem by a religious poet

This being human is a guest house.
Every morning a new arrival.

A joy, a depression, a meanness,
some momentary awareness comes
as an unexpected visitor.

Welcome and entertain them all!
Even if they're a crowd of sorrows,
who violently sweep your house
empty of its furniture,
still, treat each guest honorably.
He may be clearing you out
for some new delight.

The dark thought, the shame, the malice,
meet them at the door laughing,
and invite them in.

Be grateful for whoever comes,
because each has been sent
as a guide from beyond.


~ Rumi ~


(The Essential Rumi, versions by Coleman Barks)

[1-wheeled-grape]

This being human is a guest house.
Every morning a new arrival.

A joy, a depression, a meanness,
some momentary awareness comes
as an unexpected visitor.

Welcome and entertain them all!
Even if they're a crowd of sorrows,
who violently sweep your house
empty of its furniture,
still, treat each guest honorably.
He may be clearing you out
for some new delight.

The dark thought, the shame, the malice,
meet them at the door laughing,
and invite them in.

Be grateful for whoever comes,
because each has been sent
as a guide from beyond.

Basically saying everything happens for a reason, it might be good so treat it as that. Great but I'm still not going to turn to god. I'm stubborn :p Even if it was proved that he existed.

[BillyTheMountain]

Basically saying everything happens for a reason, it might be good so treat it as that. Great but I'm still not going to turn to god. I'm stubborn :p Even if it was proved that he existed.

Good for you!

That's GOD's will for you.

While Rumi may also be saying that everything happens for a reason, the more important message is that everything is a gift.

Billy

[BillyTheMountain]

Should I have said 99.9997%?

I met a cop the other day, asked him what I was up to the day before. He guessed I was violating the speed limit. He had no idea I was trafficking human organs via the Internet.

Seems like lots of people who believe in law and order would behave differently if there were no police, huh?

[ericaesop]

Jesus was way cool
Everybody liked Jesus
Everybody wanted to hang out with him
Anything he wanted to do, he did
He turned water into wine
And if he wanted to
He could have turned wheat into marijuana
Or sugar into cocaine
Or vitamin pills into amphetamines

He walked on the water
And swam on the land
He would tell these stories
And people would listen
He was really cool

If you were blind or lame
You just went to Jesus
And he would put his hands on you
And you would be healed
That's so cool

He could've played guitar better than Hendrix
He could've told the future
He could've baked the most delicious cake in the world
He could've scored more goals than Wayne Gretzky
He could've danced better than Barishnikov
Jesus could have been funnier than any comedian you can think of
Jesus was way cool

He told people to eat his body and drink his blood
That's so cool
Jesus was so cool
But then some people got jealous of how cool he was
So they killed him
But then he rose from the dead
He rose from the dead, danced around
Then went up to heaven
I mean, that's so cool
Jesus was way cool

No wonder there are so many Christians

[kevinalexandersmith]

I still can't wrap my mind around the question. How can anything exist without God? If God didn't exist who would be around to disprove him?

If it were proven that you didn't exist, would you behaive differently?

[peleschramm]

I still can't wrap my mind around the question. How can anything exist without God? If God didn't exist who would be around to disprove him?

If it were proven that you didn't exist, would you behaive differently?

Big bang...

Evolution...

[Spudman]

I still can't wrap my mind around the question. How can anything exist without God? If God didn't exist who would be around to disprove him?

It's funny, because I can't wrap my mind around the reverse question (What would you think if god was proven to exist). It defies the way the world works... it's a nonsensical question.

Our brains must be very different from each other.

[BillyTheMountain]

It's funny, because I can't wrap my mind around the reverse question (What would you think if god was proven to exist). It defies the way the world works... it's a nonsensical question.

Our brains must be very different from each other.

Yeah. That reminds of when everyone believed humans could not fly. And then for years after that, when everyone believed humans could not go to the moon.

It just defied the way the world worked.

Raphael and DisgruntledDave would say your brain works like a dog's brain in that regard, can only see what is and cannot imagine anything else. They say that's why dogs are atheists.

[Spudman]

Yeah. That reminds of when everyone believed humans could not fly. And then for years after that, when everyone believed humans could not go to the moon.

It just defied the way the world worked.


Well then shouldn't your post be directed at Kevin? It seems like the religious view of the world is the old way that the world worked.

We can't fly! --> oh, wait, I guess we can manage to do that.
You can't put a person on the moon! --> dang. bet it was a conspiracy.
People couldn't have come into existence without a god! --> someone needs to tell those scientists to stop...

[Jerrick]

Jesus was way cool
Everybody liked Jesus
Everybody wanted to hang out with him
Anything he wanted to do, he did
He turned water into wine
And if he wanted to
He could have turned wheat into marijuana
Or sugar into cocaine
Or vitamin pills into amphetamines

He walked on the water
And swam on the land
He would tell these stories
And people would listen
He was really cool

If you were blind or lame
You just went to Jesus
And he would put his hands on you
And you would be healed
That's so cool

He could've played guitar better than Hendrix
He could've told the future
He could've baked the most delicious cake in the world
He could've scored more goals than Wayne Gretzky
He could've danced better than Barishnikov
Jesus could have been funnier than any comedian you can think of
Jesus was way cool

He told people to eat his body and drink his blood
That's so cool
Jesus was so cool
But then some people got jealous of how cool he was
So they killed him
But then he rose from the dead
He rose from the dead, danced around
Then went up to heaven
I mean, that's so cool
Jesus was way cool

No wonder there are so many Christians


All thanks to King Missile.

Detachable Penis!

[BillyTheMountain]

All thanks to King Missile.

Detachable Penis!

I used to hear both those songs on the radio all the time, WFMU rules!!

[BillyTheMountain]

Well then shouldn't your post be directed at Kevin? It seems like the religious view of the world is the old way that the world worked.

We can't fly! --> oh, wait, I guess we can manage to do that.
You can't put a person on the moon! --> dang. bet it was a conspiracy.
People couldn't have come into existence without a god! --> someone needs to tell those scientists to stop...

More like: You cannot discover America, you'll fall off the edge of the world!

"You'll never discover GOD! You'll never experience GOD!"

[kevinalexandersmith]

Big bang...

Evolution...Big bang, I hear the universe has always been exploding and collapsing on itself (big bang, big crunch, repeat…). Supposedly, this process has always been going on with out anything creating it. Saying it has always been without a creator is accepted as good science.

However, when it’s a Christian says God always existed no one created Him. That’s considered foolishness. They say, so who created God.

Weather you believe the universe’s big bang cycle always was or you believe God always was, either way you believer there is something that always was, without anything creating it.

It’s turtles all the way down for science just like it’s turtles all the way down for Theists.

I doubt I’ll be able to make this make sense but I’ll try. Infinity isn’t a number it’s a direction. The difference is whatever turtle you think I’m talking about I’m not. It’s one farther down. No, no not that one either…keep going…you see… Infinity isn’t a number it’s a direction.

[kevinalexandersmith]

Well then shouldn't your post be directed at Kevin? It seems like the religious view of the world is the old way that the world worked.

We can't fly! --> oh, wait, I guess we can manage to do that.
You can't put a person on the moon! --> dang. bet it was a conspiracy.
People couldn't have come into existence without a god! --> someone needs to tell those scientists to stop...Scientists that said the world was flat before scientists said it was round.
Science that said we couldn’t fly before science said we could.
Scientists said leaches and bleeding were good before they said it was bad.

Everyday scientific knowledge changes, proving one common truth thru all scientific development; Science is usually wrong and usually needs to be revised.

[Spudman]

Scientists that said the world was flat before scientists said it was round.
Science that said we couldn’t fly before science said we could.
Scientists said leaches and bleeding were good before they said it was bad.

Everyday scientific knowledge changes, proving one common truth thru all scientific development; Science is usually wrong and usually needs to be revised.

This is all true, and this is why science is so great. Science gives us the best theory for the way the world works based on the knowledge that we have. As new evidence is introduced, our theories change to explain the new evidence as well. While our current theories are not likely to be entirely correct, they are getting closer.

Religion, on the other hand, just makes the assumption that it's right. If new evidence is introduced, it is either deemed false or completely ignored.

[peleschramm]

Big bang, I hear the universe has always been exploding and collapsing on itself (big bang, big crunch, repeat…). Supposedly, this process has always been going on with out anything creating it. Saying it has always been without a creator is accepted as good science.

However, when it’s a Christian says God always existed no one created Him. That’s considered foolishness. They say, so who created God.

Weather you believe the universe’s big bang cycle always was or you believe God always was, either way you believer there is something that always was, without anything creating it.

It’s turtles all the way down for science just like it’s turtles all the way down for Theists.

I doubt I’ll be able to make this make sense but I’ll try. Infinity isn’t a number it’s a direction. The difference is whatever turtle you think I’m talking about I’m not. It’s one farther down. No, no not that one either…keep going…you see… Infinity isn’t a number it’s a direction.
No, no, I see what you're saying.

The thing is you can't see how the world can't have a creator.

I'm just saying, if you use the assertion that someone had to create it all, but the creator had been around all along in that case the same thing could have happened with the universe without the creator. If you say that someone had to create it all, then you are basically contradicting yourself because someone had to make that creator to and on and on.


I hope this made sense.

[phlegm]

Religion, on the other hand, just makes the assumption that it's right. If new evidence is introduced, it is either deemed false or completely ignored.

The second sentence is not entirely true, at least not for all religions. Tracing Christian thought throughout history reveals that its understanding and meaning has changed along with other prevailing views. Christianity can be far more fluid than Christian fundamentalists like to admit.

Granted, I think most people prefer relatively little fluidity in what they "know". So I think the tendency to ignore new evidence has more to do with the human tendency to cling to knowledge than religion itself.

[johnfoss]

Saying it has always been without a creator is accepted as good science. Saying there is no *evidence* of a creator is good science. Unless there is some.

Everyday scientific knowledge changes, proving one common truth thru all scientific development; Science is usually wrong and usually needs to be revised.I would put it that science is often (not usually) *proven* wrong, by scientific means. The more we learn, the more it gets revised or refined.

Please notice, science never takes us backward. We haven't gone back to a flat world or the inability to fly. As for leeches and bleeding, I think we know a lot more about that too but there are organic solutions in use here and there, to clean up infections and such, though I guess they're not the same thing.

Science is supposed to be an accumulation of knowledge about our world. Sometimes wrong ideas get us wrong answers, which get changed when new information comes along (like flying machines that work). But anyway, if a scientist claims to believe he or she is right, with absolute certainty, how different is it from someone with absolute faith in something else they can't prove?

[Biggestbtc]

Great discussion.
If God was proved to not to exist, thus nullifying all forms of Christian religion and literature(the Bible esp.), my question is, 'What is wrong with murder?'
Is there anyone who can give me a solid answer on why murder is wrong starting on the assumption that God/Christianity/Bible is false?

[maestro8]

Is there anyone who can give me a solid answer on why murder is wrong starting on the assumption that God/Christianity/Bible is false?

The definitions of right and wrong come from within, not from without.

[Biggestbtc]

The definitions of right and wrong come from within, not from without.
That's not really what I was looking for. This is too subjective and easily manipulated. What if I decided that it was right for me to strangle a little girl walking by on the sidewalk? I am perfectly innocent, right? If everyone believed in this definition of right and wrong, then we could have no form of judicial system. Every seemingly just judgment by a court would have the potential of convicting a person who did no wrong. That would not be right. (Or maybe it would, because if the judge felt what he was doing was right...:eek:)

[johnfoss]

What if I decided that it was right for me to strangle a little girl walking by on the sidewalk? I am perfectly innocent, right?You're perfectly guilty. You would be institutionalized, or go to jail for life. Probably the institution, because you would be considered mentally ill. What makes you think it's right for you to strangle little girls?

Remove God from your personal equation, and all that leaves is everybody else. Do you honestly get your sense of right vs. wrong from God? No other input? Don't some things seem right or wrong to you independently of what you've read or know of your God?

[zogola]

Is there anyone who can give me a solid answer on why murder is wrong starting on the assumption that God/Christianity/Bible is false?

It simply doesn't matter if "God/Christianity/Bible is false". Either way... I do not want anyone else killing people I care about, therefore I would never kill anyone someone else cares about. You see, contrary to what you seem to believe, religion is not necessary for people to treat one another well. There can still be a sense of right and wrong even without religion.

Kurt

[BillyTheMountain]

It simply doesn't matter if "God/Christianity/Bible is false". Either way... I do not want anyone else killing people I care about, therefore I would never kill anyone someone else cares about. You see, contrary to what you seem to believe, religion is not necessary for people to treat one another well. There can still be a sense of right and wrong even without religion.

Kurt

of course, the atheists killed more people historically than the Faithful.

[zogola]

of course, the atheists killed more people historically than the Faithful.

Oh my... here we go. Are you saying that atheists are more evil than the "Faithful" because of some sort of body count you wont share with us? I'm an atheist, I've never killed anyone, I've never been in jail, I pay my taxes, etc. I try to do good things as I go about my business. Would you condemn me to hell for the life I've lived?

I'm not gonna touch this any further, but it is a fact that most human beings have a sense of right and wrong that has nothing to do with any religion, otherwise there could be no such thing as an atheist who is a good person.

Kurt

[BillyTheMountain]

It simply doesn't matter if "God/Christianity/Bible is false". Either way... I do not want anyone else killing people I care about, therefore I would never kill anyone someone else cares about. You see, contrary to what you seem to believe, religion is not necessary for people to treat one another well. There can still be a sense of right and wrong even without religion.

Kurt

Thanks for letting this go, since you brought it up in the first place. Hopefully end of conversation.

[Jerrick]

I used to hear both those songs on the radio all the time, WFMU rules!!

Lucky. Id have to get really lucky with one of the local stations to hear one of their songs being played. None of the commercial radio stations would play here, thats for sure.

[zogola]

Billy,
Uh, I didn't bring it up. Biggestbtc brought up murder as an example of generally accepted bad behavior. Gotta twist things again, eh Billy? Still no detailed number on your body count? Just throwing things out to see what sticks?

My logic is sound and its eating you up.

Kurt

My apologies to Jerrick, who happened to post in the midst of some serious mud slinging.

[unifreak7]

Didn't read the last three pages.

If god was proven to exist I would be pissed. To know that there is a God and he is doing nothing about everything going on in this world. All the evil and corruption growing around us without us knowing. The BS hidden agendies with country mergers and new world orders. All the death and pain. If there is a God, it turns me away from Religion even more. This is what people do with freewill and power and no intervention from the "Great One"?

Religion seems to be just a hinderance of human advancement. Because of religion we overly care about life. Even if we solved every problem on the planet we would die from over population. Since everyone is sooo afraid of having to cut the population down. Stem cell research is taking a backseat. I don't care how inconsistant it might be now. With time and technology things get more accurate and cheaper. We could actively be bettering our current, much smaller, population without religion. You don't need religion to teach morals.

The biggest teaching a parent could give to a child is the concept or time. Everyone knows the moral lesson "Value of a dollar," how about "The Value of an hour"? Once you understand this, morals fit right in.

[kevinalexandersmith]

Didn't read the last three pages.

If god was proven to exist I would be pissed. To know that there is a God and he is doing nothing about everything going on in this world. All the evil and corruption growing around us without us knowing. The BS hidden agendies with country mergers and new world orders. All the death and pain. If there is a God, it turns me away from Religion even more. This is what people do with freewill and power and no intervention from the "Great One"?

Religion seems to be just a hinderance of human advancement. Because of religion we overly care about life. Even if we solved every problem on the planet we would die from over population. Since everyone is sooo afraid of having to cut the population down. Stem cell research is taking a backseat. I don't care how inconsistant it might be now. With time and technology things get more accurate and cheaper. We could actively be bettering our current, much smaller, population without religion. You don't need religion to teach morals.

The biggest teaching a parent could give to a child is the concept or time. Everyone knows the moral lesson "Value of a dollar," how about "The Value of an hour"? Once you understand this, morals fit right in.You complain about all the death that God is allowing. Then you say if we solve all the world problems we’d die of overpopulation. Didn’t you just show a possible reason for God to allow problems and death?

Maybe it’s far more complicated than we think. What we reason to be right or moral based on our limited knowledge and intelligence maybe absolute evil foolishness when seen from the point of view of the One who knows and understands everything. Likewise the things God does may seem wrong because we don’t know the whole story and would be incapable of understanding it if we did. I know my toddler often thinks what I’m doing is very evil; like when I gave him his nasty tasting antibiotics this morning.

It is the highest level of arrogance and foolishness for us to impose our idea of morality over God’s. I can’t tell you how it was right for Job to suffer in the Bible, but I accept that God knows more about that situation than I do and is more qualified than me decide what is right.

When people get mad because they don’t like what God is doing (or not doing) they are saying they are smarter than God. How small minded for any of us to think that we are individually the moral authority of the universe and tell God he’s wrong.

Some humanist might say that “we” collectively are the moral authority of the universe. If so, then the horrible things done by us collectively thru history were good. What foolishness.

[BillyTheMountain]

To know that there is a God and he is doing nothing about everything going on in this world. All the evil and corruption growing around us without us knowing. The BS hidden agendies with country mergers and new world orders. All the death and pain. If there is a God, it turns me away from Religion even more.

I know you and Kurt are doing nothing about all the evil in the world yet, somehow, I'm not turned off to you.

One day you may marry someone who is doing nothing about all the evil in the world. Try not to be turned off by that.

Billy

[BillyTheMountain]

Lucky. Id have to get really lucky with one of the local stations to hear one of their songs being played. None of the commercial radio stations would play here, thats for sure.

and all the shows are archived, so you can listen to them anytime, at WFMU.org

today they had a weird interview with Brian Wilson, and played his new album, cuz he's playing across the river NJ tomorrow night starting with 45 minutes of old Beach Boys songs.

unifreak7 has the same idea that got Satan thrown out of Heaven, take free will away from man so he can only do good.

[Goats_On_Unicycles]

Jesus was way cool
Everybody liked Jesus
Everybody wanted to hang out with him
Anything he wanted to do, he did
He turned water into wine
And if he wanted to
He could have turned wheat into marijuana
Or sugar into cocaine
Or vitamin pills into amphetamines

He walked on the water
And swam on the land
He would tell these stories
And people would listen
He was really cool

If you were blind or lame
You just went to Jesus
And he would put his hands on you
And you would be healed
That's so cool

He could've played guitar better than Hendrix
He could've told the future
He could've baked the most delicious cake in the world
He could've scored more goals than Wayne Gretzky
He could've danced better than Barishnikov
Jesus could have been funnier than any comedian you can think of
Jesus was way cool

He told people to eat his body and drink his blood
That's so cool
Jesus was so cool
But then some people got jealous of how cool he was
So they killed him
But then he rose from the dead
He rose from the dead, danced around
Then went up to heaven
I mean, that's so cool
Jesus was way cool

No wonder there are so many Christians

That's like, the best effin' song ever.
Viva John Hall!

[Jerrick]

and all the shows are archived, so you can listen to them anytime, at WFMU.org

today they had a weird interview with Brian Wilson, and played his new album, cuz he's playing across the river NJ tomorrow night starting with 45 minutes of old Beach Boys songs.

unifreak7 has the same idea that got Satan thrown out of Heaven, take free will away from man so he can only do good.

Thanks, im going to site right now!

And.

Hi Jackie!!

[zogola]

I know you and Kurt are doing nothing about all the evil in the world yet, somehow, I'm not turned off to you.

Billy

Unifreak7 and Zogola fighting all the evil in the world...sounds like a good comic book.

Kurt