Honda fit or toyota prius?

[MuniAddict]

This is *driving* me crazy..pun not intended but "fits" none the less! Anyway, I'm ready to buy a new car and I'm torn between the Honda fit sport with mpg estimates of 27/34/29 combined, and about $10,000 less than the toyota prius, which are selling out faster than dealers can get them.

Not only that, but supply in demand means that most are selling them atup to $3,500 OVER msrp! So we're talking-for just a base model-almost $30k out the door if paying cash! I can get an '08 fit sport (Automatic, cruise control, mp3) for about 18k out the door.

The prius supposedly gets about 45/50 mpg so yeah that is the huge selling point, even though when the tome comes to replace the hybrid battery pack it'll cost you at least $2,500-3.5k!

So, with all this in mind, I'm thinking that the fit might be the better long term value, because even with the prius' better mpg, it would take many years to break even with he cost of the fit, if ever.

Btw, toyota plans to unveil their next incarnation of the prius thqat will make current models look like gas-guzzlers!..in 2009!
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=109981


Btw#2: Go here for mpg estimates on all cars: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/
Thoughts?

[Tyler_N]

when i can drive i might get a junk car with no engine and put in an electric car engine from here (http://e-volks.com/) into it

[peleschramm]

I drive a Prius. (Both and 03 and an 07) And I love them (obviously the 07 is better). The turn radius is amazing, and the acceleration isn't as bad as one may assume. It really is a nice car. The 07 has a lot of trunk space too, which is nice (unlike the 03). Go Prius!

[critter]

I had the same idea and came up with the same conclusion. The Fit is a GO.

I helped the girl friend get the Fit. We liked the cheaper price and better predictability. She gets over 31mpg ( mountains and city).

Super roomy!! Have you seen how the back seats fold down? Easily FITS a mountain bike(14") or a bunch of unis. I like the looks of the back door better than the Prius'

[MuniAddict]

Well, I just had my '03 Honda crv detailed and since it only has 60k miles and is still like new im/out, I just cou;dn't justify spending $18,000 on a new (inferior quality) much smaller Honda fit, when I would only gain about 5 mpg improvement! Just doesn't make sense now. And it seems insane to spend the current RIP OFF going price of more than $30k out the door for a standard prius. Rediculous. I also only average about 12-15k total miles per year.

I could see if you were commuting a lot and putting on 30k or more a year, the you would definitely save a lot in gas cost, but is $30k worth the extra money you save in gas? I think we're going to see some MAJOR mpg improvements even in the pirus soon, and so the current models will become outdated soon. I'll just wait another year ot 2.

[critter]

We just traded in our '99 CRV!:) It had just over 100000 and a new timing belt. It was a sweet car but we don't miss it now. The Fit is like a mini CRV. We didn't need the extra space..... or the 4 wheel drive.

Picture is the 1st day just two weeks ago.

[Gilby]

I'm a Toyota guy, having the first car I drove being a camry, and then owning a prism (a cheapened version of the Corolla made by Toyota for GM), and now a highlander. Toyota's are nice, but while the Prius is nice; to you, I would recommend the Fit, but then again, if you are an environmentalist socialist, you may want to go with the prius since that gives the impression of being eco friendly even though the Fit is probably more eco friendly as the result of there being less enviromental impact in production. As a free market capitalist, I recommend you go with the car that matches the needs you have at the lowest cost, and that seems to be the Fit.

Yes, next to Toyotas, Hondas are probably my next choice.

[catinabag1]

"the fit is go." stupid commercials.:p

you can't beat toyotas. they're easy and cheap to fix and they are really strong and don't really break anyway. toyota all the way.

[isaac steiner]

Why not a pedal car???:p

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=pSwig1tgUtY

[fatlardboy13]

It looks like that '09 version of the prius would pay for itself in a couple months with today's gas prices.:p But before you make your decision based on the price of the cars, you should take some time to figure out how long it would take for the prius to pay off in the long run based on how much you drive. We have had a prius for about 3 years and my dad calculated that we saved at least $10,000 based on the driving we have done over an SUV.

[Gilby]

We have had a prius for about 3 years and my dad calculated that we saved at least $10,000 based on the driving we have done over an SUV.Comparing a prius to an SUV. That's not a very good comparison. If you need the space and utility of an SUV, the prius just does not match up, but if you need the limited space of a small car like a prius or fit, then you can better compare them.

Again, it all comes down to what you need in a vehicle. If you can get by with a small vehicle, then get the most economical one that suits you... one that is the lowest cost for it's total useful life in your case. If you need the space an SUV provides, then you need to look at all those SUV options and their total cost of ownership. The real problem comes when someone like me needs a large vehicle that can tow a trailor for some of the time, but most of the time can get by with a small vehicle like the prius or fit (or even smaller).

In my household, we have a civic and a highlander, so much of the time we can choose to commute in the one that gives us the best utility for the trip.

[MuniAddict]

It looks like that '09 version of the prius would pay for itself in a couple months with today's gas prices.:p But before you make your decision based on the price of the cars, you should take some time to figure out how long it would take for the prius to pay off in the long run based on how much you drive. We have had a prius for about 3 years and my dad calculated that we saved at least $10,000 based on the driving we have done over an SUV.Wow you must drive like 60k miles per year to save that much! My yearly gas cost based on $4 per gallon is roughly $2,500.

If I got a prius I'd cut that in half, which would mean a savings if $1,250 per year. To save 10k it would take EIGHT years! The cost of the prius right now-for new- is about $30k out the door minimum! I'd get at most, 10k for my '03 crv, making the pirus net cost $20k. Then you'd likely need a replacement battery a couple years later that would cost you about $3,000 or more with installation.

Doesn't sound to well worth it-at least for me. Especially now when dealers are gouging the price of the prius by up to $4,000 OVER msrp, let alone the fact that they sell out before they even get to the showroom! It's hype and mania, but it's not always well thought out. Btw, My annual mileage is about 12k only. Plus as a piano tuner the crv has much more room and has more power. So I have to ask myself if it's worth shelling out $30,000 mainly to just double my mpg?

Btw, I've been checking pirus' selling on ebay-even the ones with "salvaged" titles are going like hotcakes! 20,30,50 bids! And selling for well over $20,000!!! It's totally crazy! Here's a salvaged title prius with 33 bids and nearly 19k! http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Toyota-Prius-2WD-Touring-2008-Toyota-Prius-Hybrid-Pkg6-Touring-NO-RESERVE_W0QQitemZ220246891902QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item220246891902&

[1-wheeled-grape]

Why not a pedal car???:p[/URL]
Like this instead though?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/southyorkshire/content/images/2007/09/27/chucklebody_160x220.jpg
it's in this [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1beT0tixumo"]vid (http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=pSwig1tgUtY) at 4 mins! The chuckle brothers are great!

[Hazmat]

Well we get both the Prius and Fit (It's called Jazz here in Oz) and i think the Honda would work out best cause of honda strong reputation and dynamics etc. I was considering getting a Jazz over the Prius. But ended up going for the Mazda 2 Genki. (http://www.businessweek.com/autos/autobeat/archives/mazda2-rear.jpg) :D

[evil-nick]

If you drive conservatively, you can prolly get 40+mpg out of the fit... I do with my '99 Civic :D

[fatlardboy13]

Wow you must drive like 60k miles per year to save that much!

Btw, My annual mileage is about 12k only.


So I have to ask myself if it's worth shelling out $30,000 mainly to just double my mpg?

Actually, I think we only have about 55,000 miles on it. I think my dad might have exaggerated a little bit by saying we saved $10,000. But had we been driving a big SUV we might have saved about that much.

If you only drive 12k miles a year, it would take a lot longer for the prius to pay off. The Honda Fit sounds like a good compromise for your situation.

You make that sound like it's a bad thing.:p

[MuniAddict]

If you drive conservatively, you can prolly get 40+mpg out of the fit... I do with my '99 Civic :DMaybe combined, but no way for city-only driving with all the stop and go, wating at lights, driving up steep grades, etc. Not a chance. Even the prius strains to get slightly better than that for city-only driving with "real world" estimates.

[mornish]

I would get an Aptera if I were you. The hybrid version gets 300 mpg, and the all electric version has a 120 mile range. It also looks bad-ass. It costs about $30,000.

http://www.aptera.com/

They are made in Carlsbad too, so you can go check one out yourself.

[Hazmat]

I would get a Suzuki Twin if i had the $$$.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/97/Suzuki-twin_1st-front.jpg

[peleschramm]

I would get an Aptera if I were you. The hybrid version gets 300 mpg, and the all electric version has a 120 mile range. It also looks bad-ass. It costs about $30,000.

http://www.aptera.com/

They are made in Carlsbad too, so you can go check one out yourself.
are those really only $30,000?!

Those look hella Badass.

Edit: Wow your right. This right here is my new dream car! And realistic too...

[agentQ]

I have always thought that the Honda Civic Hatch was the best car every made. Now it comes in 4 door version called the Fit. I would go with the a Fit for sure.

Although that spaceship Miles linked to is pretty nifty.

[swarbrim]

I haven't done any research on this, but if you care for the environment I would steer away from the Prius. I could only assume the efficiency rate would be a lot poorer than a standard car. If you are worrying about fuel prices, get a diesel.

The Jazz (Fit apparently) is a good car over in Britain, reliable and economical.

Cheers.

[musketman]

My Diesel F-350 can run over your prius :D


hah , idk dude, either car'll do u fine. too bad "evolution" is too slow...we could all grow wings and fly. psshh..

[MuniAddict]

I haven't done any research on this, but if you care for the environment I would steer away from the Prius. I could only assume the efficiency rate would be a lot poorer than a standard car. If you are worrying about fuel prices, get a diesel.

The Jazz (Fit apparently) is a good car over in Britain, reliable and economical.

Cheers.Haha diesel costs $5.25 per gallon here!

[idiorythmic]

I'm not sure, Terry, what your car needs are, but I can report that for a single human driving mainly to and from work (70 miles total each day, half city half freeway), with the occasional jaunt to some unicycling event someplace, the Fit is just perfect.

Though it has a very small, sub-compact footprint on the ground (translation: you can park it anywhere), it's roomy inside even for the larger adult humans you might travel with.

I can get my N36, T7 handle and all, in and out through the rear passenger doors with no trouble at all. I also can carry a 20", a 24" and a 29" in the hatchback area quite easily, with room to spare for other equipment.

I think with your city driving and the hills you'll still manage 30 mpg pretty easily. (I am getting near 34 without using any drastic hypermiling techniques)

[mscalisi]

The main advantage of the Prius over the fit is that it's a mid sized sedan vs. a compact car. Between the two, gas savings shouldn't really sway you one way or the other. The Prius won't pay for itself that way, but the fit will never fit as much stuff or be as luxurious.

That being said, I'd never pay over sticker for a car. The Prius is booming right now because gas prices are super-inflated and people are having a knee-jerk reaction to it.

Gas prices will come down (current prices are that way largely because of speculation on oil futures) and when they do, you'll no longer need to pay a premium on the Prius.

I'd also consider the Yaris. It's similar to the Fit, but easier to get a good deal on.

....or you could put your name on the wait list for a smart car.

[mscalisi]

With a 38-gallon tank and Diesel fuel at $5 a gallon, two-fillups are the monthly payment on a Prius.

I hope you're doing real work with that thing.

edit: A quick google search suggests that the F-350 gets maybe 10mpg. Ouch!! If you drive an average of 18k miles a year, the fuel costs are enough to make payments on, fuel, and insure a Prius. ...just don't try to haul gravel or tow a 5th wheel.

My Diesel F-350 can run over your prius :D


hah , idk dude, either car'll do u fine. too bad "evolution" is too slow...we could all grow wings and fly. psshh..

[adjuggler]

The main advantage of the Prius over the fit is that it's a mid sized sedan vs. a compact car. Between the two, gas savings shouldn't really sway you one way or the other... also consider the Yaris. It's similar to the Fit, but easier to get a good deal on...

I second both those opinions, we own a Prius now, but with pre-inflation prices has saved a lot for what we use it which 70+ miles a day highway commute.

In your situation however, and I'm saying this with no prior knowledge (except knowing what the price and mpg is) of the "Fit", I would suggest the Fit. No need to pay over sticker when you can negotiate a cheaper car for reasonable gas milage.

[MuniAddict]

I second both those opinions, we own a Prius now, but with pre-inflation prices has saved a lot for what we use it which 70+ miles a day highway commute.

In your situation however, and I'm saying this with no prior knowledge (except knowing what the price and mpg is) of the "Fit", I would suggest the Fit. No need to pay over sticker when you can negotiate a cheaper car for reasonable gas milage.Well, the "real world" city mpg on a fit-and the auto actually rates 1 mpg higher than the manual-gets only 25-27mpg at best, and maybe 34-35 hwy at best. That's a combined of 29. Not worth spending 18k for a mere 5pmg improvement over my honda crv, which is way roomier and just a much higher quality car than the fit.

Plus I only have 60k on it and it's in great condition. The buzz it to wait a year or 2 more, when honda and toyota will inveil cars that make the current hybrids seem like dgas guzzlers!

[Gilby]

Gas prices will come down (current prices are that way largely because of speculation on oil futures) Who'd you hear that from? Politicians and the media? Try this instead. (http://www.instituteforenergyresearch.org/2008/06/23/speculators-not-to-blame-for-high-oil-prices/)

[mscalisi]

Who to believe? The overall trend will obviously be up, but I expect short term prices to drop. The point is that consumers are having a knee-jerk reaction to rising prices which is allowing dealers to price over sticker.

Regardless, even if prices stay high, production will rise to meet demand, and you won't have to pay over sticker.

Who'd you hear that from? Politicians and the media? Try this instead. (http://www.instituteforenergyresearch.org/2008/06/23/speculators-not-to-blame-for-high-oil-prices/)

[mornish]

Who to believe? The overall trend will obviously be up, but I expect short term prices to drop. The point is that consumers are having a knee-jerk reaction to rising prices which is allowing dealers to price over sticker.

Regardless, even if prices stay high, production will rise to meet demand, and you won't have to pay over sticker.

It might not though.

Did you know they used to be able to shoot a bullet in the ground to find oil?

Now we have to dig multiple thousands of foot deep oil wells to find it.

If it comes down, it probably won't go down past $5 a gallon, and then only briefly.

[mscalisi]

If it's more than $5 a gallon, the direction it moved wasn't down. Like I said before, the overall trend will be up. That being said; this spike we're experiencing may be influeced by things other than supply and it's very possible, likely even, that prices will drop a bit in the short-term. We've had oil crisis in the past, and prices came down. We'll have them in the future too.

It might not though.

Did you know they used to be able to shoot a bullet in the ground to find oil?

Now we have to dig multiple thousands of foot deep oil wells to find it.

If it comes down, it probably won't go down past $5 a gallon, and then only briefly.

[adjuggler]

If it's more than $5 a gallon, the direction it moved wasn't down. Like I said before, the overall trend will be up. That being said; this spike we're experiencing may be influeced by things other than supply and it's very possible, likely even, that prices will drop a bit in the short-term. We've had oil crisis in the past, and prices came down. We'll have them in the future too.
I read China is very willing to outbid the U.S. over $137 a barrel for oil. For world powerness and what not.

[MuniAddict]

Well, I guess the decision is made! I just won a prius on Ebay motors auction! It was inspected prior to bidding, and the owner works at Toyota-a plus-and I went to test drive it.

They have all records and have been taking it in for each and every scheduled service and it looks and runs like new. I think I got a good deal. It even has the Carpool stickers! :D

Many are paying a whole lot extra for those-which are only available on '07 and earlier I believe- and are no longer available on current models since that program ended more than a year ago.

<California (Update Feb. 2007) The Department of Motor Vehicles is no longer accepting applications from drivers who own a Toyota Prius, Honda Civic or older Honda Insight hybrids for carpool stickers. State law allowed the DMV to issue 85,000 stickers to certain hybrid drivers on a first-come, first-serve basis. Spokesman Steve Haskins said that his agency had 700 applications over that level and no longer wanted motorists to send in an application. "We have no more stickers available to issue and any applications sent to DMV will likely not be successfully processed,'' Haskins said. "Any unprocessed applications and checks will be returned as soon as the last of the stickers are mailed to customers.">


Now I have to sell my '03 honda crv. Should be able to get 10.5 k that's meduim blue for good condition, which it is at a minimum! Wish me luck!:)

27355

27356

[vanpaun]

congrats

[MuniAddict]

congratsThanks! I just hope I can squeeze enough out of my bank account to pay for it!:eek: (lol)

[MuniAddict]

More interesting data on the toyota synergy hybrid system. Quite amazing technology unlike anything else on the road, including the honda civic hybrid. Below is a quote from someone else:

The prius has what's known as a 'modified atkinson cycle' engine (as opposed to the plain otto cycle engine). this type of engine is more efficient, but can not produce as much torque as an otto cycle engine. also the prius engine has some other tricks up its sleeve, like the pistons being slightly offset from the crankshaft to minimize friction on the power stroke.

the larger electric motor (which is actually the final drive), drawing power from the battery, is used to provide the low-end torque that the gasoline motor can not provide. furthermore almost all braking is done first by regeneration; when the battery is full engine braking (compression braking) is added, and when that's not enough the friction brakes are used. so energy that would have been wasted in your civic is recovered, resulting in more MPGs.

so yes, it is because of the battery that it can achieve great mileage. every other car has an engine sized for acceleration from a standstill, but the prius can get away with having an engine that's sized perfectly for cruise, and rely on the battery/electric motors for starting torque.

as i briefly mentioned above, the main goal of the control loop is to keep the battery between 40 and 80% of maximum charge, and nominally at 60%. this is the secret to long battery life. the hybrid drive system is warranted for 10 years/100,000 miles. do you think toyota would do this if they felt it would be a huge liability for them? the battery is under the constant care of the computer which is managing its charge. its not the same as the lead-acid starting battery in your car that's just tied to the alternator with some diodes.

the prius actually has two electric motors, which are coupled to the wheels together with the gasoline engine by a planetary gear set which functions as an electronically controlled continuously variable transmission. as i mentioned before the final drive is electric, so this allows the gasoline engine to run at RPM settings that yield peak efficiency during highway cruise.

i'm telling you, this sh** is the real deal. its the most incredible car i've ever owned... and i've owned some nice ones, including a V70R and an MBZ C43 that just sits in the garage now.

this is a great page with lots of interesting info:

http://privatenrg.com/#Hybrid_Synergy_Drive

[kington99]

The prius has what's known as a 'modified atkinson cycle' engine (as opposed to the plain otto cycle engine). this type of engine is more efficient, but can not produce as much torque as an otto cycle engine. also the prius engine has some other tricks up its sleeve, like the pistons being slightly offset from the crankshaft to minimize friction on the power stroke.



Just read up on the Atkinson cycle as despite working in the field I'd never heard of it. I'm surprised it isn't used more as it seems to essentally be only a difference in valve timing so could be incorporated in to variable valve timing enignes as an economy cycle.

How big is the prius engine?

[MuniAddict]

Just read up on the Atkinson cycle as despite working in the field I'd never heard of it. I'm surprised it isn't used more as it seems to essentally be only a difference in valve timing so could be incorporated in to variable valve timing enignes as an economy cycle.

How big is the prius engine?Here's some more in depth info: http://www.greencar.com/features/features32/

[Loosemoose]

Just read up on the Atkinson cycle as despite working in the field I'd never heard of it. I'm surprised it isn't used more as it seems to essentally be only a difference in valve timing so could be incorporated in to variable valve timing enignes as an economy cycle.

How big is the prius engine?

According to keveny.com (http://www.keveny.com/Atkinson.html), the main difference is the offset link between piston and crankshaft. The combination of 2 4-bar linkages means you can very easily tailor the power stroke length without affecting the rest of the cycle, and thus gain maximum power & efficiency. You can't get an Otto engine to perform an Atkinson cycle without changing the link method between the piston and crankshaft. Unless they are just changing the timings on a regular Otto, and calling it an Atkinson cycle. Since the crankshaft only rotates once for each piston cycle, the torque is correspondingly less especially at low engine speeds, which the Prius compensates for using electric motors.

What I want to know is does the engine still increase in RPM in the regular manner as you accelerate? Or is the engine speed not connected to vehicle speed, it just runs at the most effective RPM for the battery charging system?

Edit: Actually, scrap all the last paragraph, according to this website (http://www.vibratesoftware.com/html_help/html/Diagnosis/Reference/CVT_Transmissions.htm#Pruis), the planetary set up in the Prius acts as a CVT, thus allowing the engine to run at the most effective RPM for the conditions, instead of having to increase with vehicle speed in the regular way.

At least this tells us how the Prius gets nearly 100MPG. Any vehicle with a CVT automatically gets close to this, electric system or not, and the electric system is a relatively reliable (and easy to market) way of getting a CVT. "It's not a CVT, it's a hybrid!". If you're expecting a screwed up powertrain, you don't complain when it sounds wierd.

Loose.

[rolandisimo]

We just went through similar calculations. Prius required substantailly more money and months of waiting here in New York. Fits are getting hard to find, but with a bit of calling around we were able to find one to test drive and bought it on the spot. We took it for its first road trip this weekend and love it. We easily fit lugage for our family of 4 plus my uni in the back, seems to have at least as much room as our 2002 Mazda protege, if not more.

ro

[MuniAddict]

I researched the honda fit, and I just couldn't justify spending 18k to get only 5 mpg more than I currently get with my honda crv, which is a superior vehicle in all respects to the fit.

But the prius (paid about the same price as the fit!) will easily more than *double* my current mpg, saving me at least $2,500 per year-and that's if gas prices don't increase! Just made the most sense to me.:)

[evil-nick]

Congrats on the Prius! I'm hoping to test drive my in-laws when they get theirs next month... they had a Toyota Tacoma that was recalled (frames rusting from the inside out!) but Toyota is giving Tacoma owners who's trucks aren't safe anymore deals n new cars :)

[mscalisi]

I think you made the right decision.

The more I think about it, the more I think purchasing a non-hybrid is purchasing already obsolete technology.

I predict that in 10 years, the only non-hybrids you can buy new will be entry-level econoboxees.

[MuniAddict]

I think you made the right decision.

The more I think about it, the more I think purchasing a non-hybrid is purchasing already obsolete technology.

I predict that in 10 years, the only non-hybrids you can buy new will be entry-level econoboxees.I just got it about an hour ago and it's AMAZING! I love this car already and I'm averaging 45.4 mpg so far in stop/go city driving! Now it's of to AAA to pay that dreaded 8.25% sales tax! But no biggie, since I got such a great deal on it!:D

[MuniAddict]

My "new" 2004 prius: :) :D :cool:

[critter]

I think you should sell it for a profit and buy a Fit!:)

[Gilby]

I think you made the right decision.

The more I think about it, the more I think purchasing a non-hybrid is purchasing already obsolete technology.

I predict that in 10 years, the only non-hybrids you can buy new will be entry-level econoboxees.Today's prius will be obsolete too as we'll have plug-in hybrids.

[MuniAddict]

I think you should sell it for a profit and buy a Fit!:)Haha no freaking way! I'm not giving up 48/45 mpg vs 27/34 for the fit. Those numbers in bold are based on "real world" mpg. No contest! The prius gets a whopping 21 mpg more than the fit for city driving alone, which is where I do most of my driving.

Plus, The prius is just a cool car so futuristic and amazingly roomy! I love this car!:cool:

Oh, and the prius and other hybrids are *exempt* from smog testing!!!:D

[MuniAddict]

Today's prius will be obsolete too as we'll have plug-in hybrids.Well, then that *really* makes any non-hybrid obsolete for sure, lol! But I didn't want to wait for the next gen prius, whenever that might be, so in the meantime I'm dang happy to own the highest mpg production car there is, and I'm getting at least 2.5 times better mpg than I was with my last car! That will save me at least $2,500-3k a year just in gas savings! And if gas prices continue to rise-and it's a pretty safe bet that they will, I'll save even more! :cool:

[maestro8]

The prius gets a whopping 21 mpg more than the fit for city driving alone, which is where I do most of my driving.
Keep in mind you don't get this efficiency for free. You must drive it conservatively or you're right back where you started...

For an extreme counterexample, see the recent Top Gear compare a BMW M3 and a Prius (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wq9ilgw1plc)

[mscalisi]

From Top Gear, they say "don't change your car, change your driving style". Implying that it doesn't matter what car you drive since the BMW M3 got better gas mileage than the Prius while tailing the Prius at the Toyota's max speed.

So basically, they picked conditions which were extremely unfavorable for the Toyota, but what the BMW was optimized for.

...but they don't tell you a couple things.

Namely, how fast were they driving?

and

Now matter how conservatively you drive a BMW, it will NEVER touch a Prius drivin in normal driving conditions. Not only that, but due to regenerative braking, poor driving habits have less of a penalty in the Prius than the BMW.

You'll NEVER get 45 MPG out of an M3, which is what people get in REAL LIFE out of a Prius. Not only that, but people who drive their Priuses conservatively regularly BEAT the epa guidlines. This, of course, is true with most any car.

I call hogwash on the whole episode. They clearly had an agenda to smear the Prius, and were intentionally deceptive.

EDIT: Did you notice that the M3 was DRAFTING the Prius?


Keep in mind you don't get this efficiency for free. You must drive it conservatively or you're right back where you started...

For an extreme counterexample, see the recent Top Gear compare a BMW M3 and a Prius (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wq9ilgw1plc)

[MuniAddict]

From Top Gear, they say "don't change your car, change your driving style". Implying that it doesn't matter what car you drive since the BMW M3 got better gas mileage than the Prius while tailing the Prius at the Toyota's max speed.

So basically, they picked conditions which were extremely unfavorable for the Toyota, but what the BMW was optimized for.

...but they don't tell you a couple things.

Namely, how fast were they driving?

and

Now matter how conservatively you drive a BMW, it will NEVER touch a Prius drivin in normal driving conditions. Not only that, but due to regenerative braking, poor driving habits have less of a penalty in the Prius than the BMW.

You'll NEVER get 45 MPG out of an M3, which is what people get in REAL LIFE out of a Prius. Not only that, but people who drive their Priuses conservatively regularly BEAT the epa guidlines. This, of course, is true with most any car.

I call hogwash on the whole episode. They clearly had an agenda to smear the Prius, and were intentionally deceptive.

EDIT: Did you notice that the M3 was DRAFTING the Prius?+55!:p (It's lonely at the top-said the prius to all non-hybrids, but I'll get used to it, lol!)

[maestro8]

I call hogwash on the whole episode.
You shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

There is some merit to their experiment, no matter how biased it is. Although it is more difficult to race around in a Prius (with it's lack of horsepower) in comparison to the M3, this episode shows there is a lot to be gained by changing your driving habits. You can't deny that!

Furthermore, hogs cannot eat televisions, therefore, this episode cannot be hogwash (http://www.answers.com/topic/hogwash).

[Jerrick]

+55!:p (It's lonely at the top-said the prius to all non-hybrids, but I'll get used to it, lol!)


Oh no, the smug has already started.

This thread is funny, people changing their minds every page.

[mscalisi]

They went out of their way to prove a point, but didn't really provide an accurate picture of reality.

What they proved is that the Prius is an inefficient racecar, which should surprise no one.

The truth is, how you drive, DRAMATICALLY affects your fuel economy. I've improved my fuel economy by over 30% over the last couple months. This is the part they got right.

...but they said it was the ONLY thing that mattered, somehow implying that the BMW M3 would get similar fuel economy to the Prius if driven efficiently.

The M3 gets 14 city and 20 highway. I bet if you drove like a granny, you could pobably beat EPA estimages and maybe 22 combined. Driving a Prius in a less conservative fashion will MORE THAN DOUBLE that. To say that it's only how you drive is an outright lie

You shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

There is some merit to their experiment, no matter how biased it is. Although it is more difficult to race around in a Prius (with it's lack of horsepower) in comparison to the M3, this episode shows there is a lot to be gained by changing your driving habits. You can't deny that!

Furthermore, hogs cannot eat televisions, therefore, this episode cannot be hogwash (http://www.answers.com/topic/hogwash).

[MuniAddict]

Oh no, the smug has already started.

This thread is funny, people changing their minds every page.Haha nah, I'm just havin' a little fun. :o It is amusing though how a lot of ppl will just trash talk the prius and/or civic hybrid, saying pretty much *any* car can acheive the same or similar high mileage, if only you drive conservatively.

I tried driving like that-and then some-for a whole tank full in my honda crv, and I didn't get any better mpg than usual; about 20 mpg combined city/hwy. But the hybrids are overpriced now and most dealers can't keep up with the demand, so unless you find a killer deal on a new or used one, you may not break even for much longer. I was lucky to find mine at a great price, and from Toyota employee!:D

[maestro8]

I tried driving like that-and then some-for a whole tank full in my honda crv, and I didn't get any better mpg than usual

If at first you don't succeed... just give up. Right?

[MuniAddict]

If at first you don't succeed... just give up. Right?Haha yeah and if I just try hard enough, I can fly too!:rolleyes::p;)

[mscalisi]

Haha yeah and if I just try hard enough, I can fly too!:rolleyes::p;)

...the wright brothers did.

Your CRV is the same platform as my Element, and I'm squeezing out 27-28 mpg nowdays. Of course now you don't have to squeeze to get 46mpg!

[skrobo]

prius=hearse... nuff said.

[MuniAddict]

:rolleyes:prius=hearse... nuff said.Actully, it was "hearse", now it's His! (Mine) :p:D:cool:

[critter]

the Fit is a Go for us.
But it sounds good for the geezer. Sounds like Terry does a lot of driving. And in LA which happens to be the most congested traffic in America. Is that true Muniaddict? How many miles on the road do you average in that city traffic of Angels?

Note : Hawaii has the #1 most congested road in America.(Ask your Garmin) The H1 via duct & Monalua freeway on afternoons(only about a 5 to 10 miles long) has no aloha. I don't drive it.:)

[Hazmat]

You do realise that there are alternatives for the small or hybrid vehicles coming, right???

But personally i'd prefer the Jazz (Fit) over the Prius mainly because it will be sometime before the Prius will be able to payout itself and that won't be for a while now.

[MuniAddict]

You do realise that there are alternatives for the small or hybrid vehicles coming, right???

But personally i'd prefer the Jazz (Fit) over the Prius mainly because it will be sometime before the Prius will be able to payout itself and that won't be for a while now.Well, luckily not in my case. I paid 19k for mine, and it also has those coveted carpool stickers that are no longer issued since 2/07. I'll get 12k for my honda crv, so that's a 7k cost to swap it for the prius.

Now here's the big plus; If gas prices stay where they are-and we know they will go up-I will save a minimum of $2,000 EACH year, over what I was spending on the crv! That means in about 3.5 years, I'll break more than even on the 7k out of pocket!

A new fit would have cost me about the same as what I paid for the prius, but with 21 mpg less PER GALLON in the city alone, the fit would take MUCH longer to break even... several more years. But my scenario is rare since most ppl are paying much more to own a pruis, like up to $36,000 for the touring model, and the base is near 29K!:eek: And usually the wait is long since there is such a high demand.

[critter]

Now here's the big plus; If gas prices stay where they are-and we know they will go up-I will save a minimum of $2,000 EACH year, over what I was spending on the crv! That means in about 3.5 years, I'll break more than even on the 7k out of pocket!
.

I bet the maintenance is more expensive on the Prius..Then you'd wish you had a Fit;)

[MuniAddict]

I bet the maintenance is more expensive on the Prius..Then you'd wish you had a Fit;)Maintinence? The only schedukled maintinence is oil change, & tire rotation every 5k or 6 months, and periodic checks. And I will continue the regular service as prescribed in the owner's manual. Preventative maintinence is best. But no, the prius requires no more maitinence than the fit-and maybe even less!:)

[adjuggler]

I bet the maintenance is more expensive on the Prius..Then you'd wish you had a Fit;) We've never done maintenance on our Prius... where are you getting this?

[mscalisi]

All cars require maintenance. ...also, notice the winky-smiley? ;)

We've never done maintenance on our Prius... where are you getting this?

[critter]

We've never done maintenance on our Prius... where are you getting this?
Yes I've heard great things 'bout the prius beside the good gas mileage.;) ;)

Just thinking it was because of all that hybrid technology. Still working out the bugs, you know, that sort of thing.

[Eddbmxdude]

Why would you even want either of these cars? I would rather push my own thumbs into my eyes than own one of them!

[Hazmat]

Well the Jazz (Fit) are a popular car here. Mainly because i've been in 1 and driven it.

4 reasons why i liked it were.....
1) Frugal fuel consumption considering it's a 1.5 81kw machine. :D
2) Class leading room and practicality.
3) Superb engines and transmissions.
4) Also the clever rear seating arrangements.

[Hazmat]

Here is a review of the Jazz (Fit) and Prius. This is from the Aussie website BTW. :D

1) Honda Jazz. (http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/ArticleDetail.aspx?ArticleID=41058&vf=1)

and

2) Toyota Prius. (http://www.carpoint.com.au/car-review/2787222.aspx)

But then again, there is option 3. :D

3) ????? (http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/ArticleDetail.aspx?ArticleID=19419&vf=1)

[MuniAddict]

Took the prius on the freeway for the first time today on my way to Sullivan canyon for a MUni ride. Also the first time driving solo in the carpool lane felt strange, and had to keep reminding myself that it has carpool stickers so it was legal lol!

Anyway, so far since my first full tank I'm averaging 44.7 mpg! There are 10 little digital squares to indicate how much gas is remaining, and at 114 miles so far, only one square has been used! (10 squares represent 11.9 gal capacity)

It cruises easily at 65, seemlessly switching from gas to electric and it's just so quiet. I think I'm going to be very happy with this choice! :)

[johnfoss]

I call hogwash on the whole episode. They clearly had an agenda to smear the Prius, and were intentionally deceptive. Last time I checked, Top Gear was neither a news show nor an educational show. I think it's supposed to be an entertaining show about cars, for car buffs. So some stuff goes unsaid, such as what speed it takes to "max out" in a Prius on their test track (it's whatever the car can handle). Mostly they're trying to be funny. I think it's a great show; we discovered it when we were in Switzerland for Unicon XIII and I too-often forget to go looking for it now that we can get it here as well...

Why would you even want either of these cars? I would rather push my own thumbs into my eyes than own one of them!I too would rather push my own thumbs into your eyes then hear why. Terry made it plain that he wants a reliable car that gets good fuel economy. I know some people would rather pay for style or acceleration, that's fine. But then you won't be getting a combination of reliability and good fuel economy unless you know something we don't...

[critter]

Why would you even want either of these cars? I would rather push my own thumbs into my eyes than own one of them!

I like my eyes.
how bout this one? It's race ready. I had it for 6 years and still love it. Almost as good gas mileage as the Fit. Can't beat this one on the fun/cost ratio. I could sell it for almost what I paid for it.

good gas mileage+great fun= mini cooper

[mscalisi]

Just thinking it was because of all that hybrid technology. Still working out the bugs, you know, that sort of thing.

Consider the bugs pretty well worked out. The Prius has existed for a decade now.

Last time I checked, Top Gear was neither a news show nor an educational show. I think it's supposed to be an entertaining show about cars, for car buffs. So some stuff goes unsaid, such as what speed it takes to "max out" in a Prius on their test track (it's whatever the car can handle). Mostly they're trying to be funny. I think it's a great show; we discovered it when we were in Switzerland for Unicon XIII and I too-often forget to go looking for it now that we can get it here as well...


I understand that they're pure entertainment, and I usually do enjoy their shows. However, they do pretend to be scientific. I've heard this episode quoted by more than one person to critisize the Prius, so obviously people are viewing it as a credible source.

[kington99]

Last time I checked, Top Gear was neither a news show nor an educational show. I think it's supposed to be an entertaining show about cars, for car buffs. So some stuff goes unsaid, such as what speed it takes to "max out" in a Prius on their test track (it's whatever the car can handle). Mostly they're trying to be funny.


This is very much the case, it used to be more serious and do reviews of real world cars, went off air for a few years and on its return had changed dramatically to be more entertaining. Of course it has a massively biased agenda.

I wouldn't really say it's for car buffs, more for lads who look at cars in FHM. Almost no content of a technical nature, mostly just mindless fun.

[critter]

Well, I guess the decision is made! I just won a prius on Ebay motors auction! It was inspected prior to bidding, and the owner works at Toyota-a plus-and I went to test drive it.

Originally Posted by critter:
Just thinking it was because of all that hybrid technology. Still working out the bugs, you know, that sort of thing.
mscalisi posted:
Consider the bugs pretty well worked out. The Prius has existed for a decade now.
critter: Has it been ten years already?

A 2oo4... It's 4 years old.....how many miles does your car have, munigeezer?

[mscalisi]

Has it been ten years already?


A little longer than that actually.
1995: Introduced the Prius as a concept car.
1997: The Prius is sold in Japan
2000: The Prius is sold in the US.

http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/prius-history

[MuniAddict]

A 2oo4... It's 4 years old.....how many miles does your car have, munigeezer?more than 35k and less than 75k :p. Put it next to a new one and it's hard to tell the difference..except mine was about $10,000 less! :D

[abbabibble]

go motorcycle!

[MuniAddict]

go motorcycle!I've had several, and they are fun. But it's kinda hard to carry my unis, groceries and it's no fun when it rains! Plus, I just don't trust crazy LA drivers! And Harlys, for example, get even *less* mpg than the prius; at least for city driving.

[johnfoss]

good gas mileage+great fun= mini cooperI got to go for a ride in that little Mini. Minis are cool. Just don't forget they require premium fuel... at least the current ones.

That said, premium has never been cheaper in relation to regular. Still only twenty cents more in the US!

I've heard this episode quoted by more than one person to critisize the Prius, so obviously people are viewing it as a credible source.People quote Rush Limbaugh. Does that make him a credible source?

But yes, there's a lot of misinformation floating around these days about Priuses and other gas-conscious cars, just because there's so much interest in them. I agree with you that gas prices will probably fall back a little (before they go up again in time for the next busy driving season), and when they do, Americans will go back to buying their muscle cars and fat SUVs.

[Eddbmxdude]

I too would rather push my own thumbs into your eyes then hear why. Terry made it plain that he wants a reliable car that gets good fuel economy. I know some people would rather pay for style or acceleration, that's fine. But then you won't be getting a combination of reliability and good fuel economy unless you know something we don't...

I own a Rover 100, some people refer to them as Metro's. You may have heard of them. Most people think they are rubbish cars and are for old people to drive to the shops in.

I have fitted an MG TF engine into mine. It will now do 0-60mph in about 7 seconds and will go onto 130mph fairly easily. Terry was saying he can get 44.7 MPG out of his prius, I can get 40+ out of my metro, and its not even a hybrid!
Anyway, aren't Prius's for smug gits that like to think they are saving the earth?:p

[MuniAddict]

Anyway, aren't Prius's for smug gits that like to think they are saving the earth?:pFor me it's all about the great mpg, and not having to give up the comfort of a larger car; the prius is a mid-size car with an amazing amount of room, not a little death trap that's so small you feel like andre the giant in a sardine can! And unlike really old, modified economy cars, they have ultra-modern features like front/side airbags, touch screen compy cruise control, AC, 6 speaker premium cd stereo, 4 doors, hatchback, Auto trans, keyless entry, GREAT RESALE value, etc

[MuniAddict]

Here's an updated review of the prius from cars.com
(http://www.cars.com/go/crp/research.jsp?revid=52843&makeid=47&modelid=2916&year=2008&revlogtype=17&section=reviews)

[kington99]

I got to go for a ride in that little Mini. Minis are cool.

Really not that little (http://k53.pbase.com/u13/rvrixus400sa/large/41653720.oldandnewminifront.jpg), MINI on the left, Mini on the right.

[Hazmat]

Really not that little (http://k53.pbase.com/u13/rvrixus400sa/large/41653720.oldandnewminifront.jpg), MINI on the left, Mini on the right.
Link doesn't work my friend. :p

[kington99]

Link doesn't work my friend. :p


Very well. (http://www.auto123.com/ArtImages/91407/2008-MINI-Cooper-S-i001.jpg)

[MuniAddict]

This ad might give you some idea of just how inflated the price for even a *used* prius (http://carscoop.blogspot.com/2008/06/used-toyota-prius-cars-selling-for-over.html)can be! :eek::eek::eek: I guess I should feel fortunate to have paid only 19k for mine and it has the HOV stickers-which haven't been available sinde 2/07! They talk about the "break even" point, which is obviously longer if you pay $35k! My actual out of pocket for mine, after selling my honda crv, will be roughly 7k. If gas doesn't go up in price, it will take me only 3 years to break even, and less if the price of gas does go up.

Then the resale value of the prius will also be higher in three years than the honda would be, especially since it's newer. I think I made the right choice. Of course, in three years, the HOV tags will be useless, so I won't get any extra for those. My other option would be to sell the prius *now*, and make maybe $1,000 to $1,500 profit, and just keep my Honda CRV. But then in three years, the honda would be worth considerably less than the prius would in three years. Plus, it's nice to only have to fill up once every 2 1/2 weeks, rather than every week or more! :)

[MuniAddict]

This is just INSANE! (http://recycler.com/details.aspx?adid=31002683)

[ian.stockwell]

Going back to Top Gear, I think that their nick name for the Prius just about sums up what I think about it.

Toyota Pious

[critter]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddbmxdude
Anyway, aren't Prius's for smug gits that like to think they are saving the earth?:p

I liked TVs South Park episode of hybrids; "I love the smell of my a**."


You don't have to justify your purchase to us, muniaddict. We all think you got a great deal. You have and will be saving money.

In the future all hybrids need to be careful because batteries not recycled is a poisoned environment. Toyota has a good recycle program with nickel-cadium batteries. But can you a imagine how many batteries will be made if all the cars are battery powered?.
The old lead batteries could kill us.http://www.things.org/~jym/greenpeace/myth-of-battery-recycling.html

[ian.stockwell]

Justifying a hybrid as a less worse car assumes that your driving involves sitting in queues for a considerable amount of the time.

I have just finished my daily commute to work in my 2.0TDI Seat Leon. I have achieved 52mpg, without trying very hard and averaged about 40mph. I was doing 40 within about 100yards of my home and only slowed to queue once for about 30 seconds.
If I used a hybrid I would simply be carrying around electric motors and batteries as luggage.
Having a vehicle with two forms of propulsion only works at all if both forms are being used. Driving a Pious in a rural environment makes no sense at all.

Having two forms of propulsion to start with is inefficient and a clumsy stop-gap method of trying to reduce CO2 emmisions.

[Hazmat]

Very well. (http://www.auto123.com/ArtImages/91407/2008-MINI-Cooper-S-i001.jpg)
Can i have the red one. PLEASE!!! :p

[Hazmat]

:D Well if you have a large family. You could go for one of these. :D

http://www.geekologie.com/2007/10/22/prius-limo.jpg

[critter]

Driving a Pious in a rural environment makes no sense at all.

Muniaddict drives in the worst congested traffic in the USa.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kington99
Very well.
hazmat posted; Can i have the red one. PLEASE!!! :p

The red one(mini) makes my Mini look big and clunky. The old minis look very fun to drive. I have only seen couple of these collectables as they were never sold in the USA. Looks t0o small for everyday use.;)

[critter]

I have just finished my daily commute to work in my 2.0TDI Seat Leon. I have achieved 52mpg, without trying very hard and averaged about 40mph. I was doing 40 within about 100yards of my home and only slowed to queue once for about 30 seconds.


NICE DRIVE!!! Cruise controll? We would all like a drive in the country.

[kington99]

I have only seen couple of these collectables as they were never sold in the USA. Looks t0o small for everyday use.;)


And how often do you ship around large stuff in your car? My Mini is my everday car, you can get an undismantled nimbus 36" in one if you're prepared to be creative, leg room i the front is so much that you can stick your legs straight out without touching anything, what more could you want?

[evil-nick]

:D Well if you have a large family. You could go for one of these. :D

http://www.geekologie.com/2007/10/22/prius-limo.jpg

There's a guy around here with one of those!

[MuniAddict]

Evidentally there are many techniques for "hypermiling", but I've been reading about this particular method, specifically used for the prius. It's called "pulse & glide" (http://www.ehow.com/how_2093197_pulse-glide-toyota-prius.html), and drivers are routinely getting 65-80mpg. It does seem to work very well, once you get the hang of it.:)

[adjuggler]

Evidentally there are many techniques for "hypermiling", but I've been reading about this particular method, specifically used for the prius. It's called "pulse & glide", and drivers are routinely getting 65-80mpg. It does seem to work very well, once you get the hang of it.:)
Mi Papi uses that "technique" if you call it that on ours. We get in the 50-60 range... 80 is not possible unless your commute is dh both ways. :)

[MuniAddict]

Mi Papi uses that "technique" if you call it that on ours. We get in the 50-60 range... 80 is not possible unless your commute is dh both ways. :)Don't tell me, you get that mileage on your hummer? lol. :rolleyes: Seriously, the only way "hypermiling" and pulse & gliding works, is accelerating very slowly, (some even recommend getting up to cruising speed quickly!) and then driving slower than 99% of traffic; that means *under*, and not surpassing speed limits. There is a lot of attention paid to the brake and gas pedal and gently feathering it-oh so slightly-to get the glide going. But if you have lots of steep grades to climb, your mileage will not be that much better, unless/until you go back the same way and coast a lot on the downhills.

[MuniAddict]

What is all this "break even" nonsense? What are they comparing it to? If you buy a fully equipped prius it's still way less than some cars, and if you buy one used, as I did, what then do you compare it to for breaking even?

Plenty of people spend way more for big SUV's and/or non-hybrid luxury cars, but you never here ppl talking about break even data on those. Rediculous. :rolleyes:

[ThisGuyIKnow]

People just like to be spiteful of the Prius. I think this mentally is spawned and encouraged by the auto industry because the profit margins on SUVs and Luxury cars is much higher than on cars like the Prius, and even the more fuel efficient gas only cars. When Honda first started making the insight it was sold to the consumer at below cost. I assume Toyota is making some profit on the Prius, but the mark up above the manufacturing cost isn't nearly as high as it is for other vehicles.

I've never understood all the people whose main motivation for a lot of things is spite.

[ian.stockwell]

People just like to be spiteful of the Prius.

I'm not spiteful about the Prius, it just annoys me when it is held up by some people as an example of a way that they are being considerate about the environment. That is why payback period is relevant as it is a way of illustrating that the argument less CO2 produced is better is simplistic if this is not taken into account.
Compared with a conventional car of the same size and with the same level of equipment, the Prius must cost more, both in financial and ecological terms to produce. It has two fuel systems and two propulsion methods, one of which will be redundant luggage for nearly all the time.

If you really being considerate about the environment DON'T DRIVE. Walk, cycle, move so you can walk or cycle to work.

There is no such thing as green car.
Discussing green cars is a bit like deciding which poison to consume based on which will do the least harm, or which weapon to hand to the phsycopath so that he will do the least harm.

And before you look at my other posts and find that I drive a car, yes I do and enjoy it.





There, now I feel a bit better.

[MuniAddict]

I'm now averaging 53.6 mpg! This is amazing for a *mid sized* car! It is by no means a little economy car with no cargo space or head room. It's got many luxury features, and is PACKAGE 5: Air Bags, Side Impact, HomeLink Universal Transmitter, JBL Premium AM/FM ETR Stereo with Cassette, 6 CD Chgr, 9 spkrs, Theft Deterrent System, Security Alarm, Wiper, Intermittent Rear, Keyless entry, cruise control, touch screen w/AC, traction control, tilt Steering wheel, automatic climate control, 4 wheel ABS brakes, Power Heated Mirrors, lighted entry system, Audio/climate Steering Wheel Controls, full display functions, and much more!

All cool stuff, and this car is in perfect like new condition, and I only paid 19k for it! But I didn't but it for any other reason than the astoundingly high MPG, and the fact that I will at be spending at least $2,000-$2,500 *less* each year on gas then before, and therefore less $$$ going to the middle east for their oil!:D

[mscalisi]

double-post, oops.

[mscalisi]

Compared with a conventional car of the same size and with the same level of equipment, the Prius must cost more, both in financial and ecological terms to produce. It has two fuel systems and two propulsion methods, one of which will be redundant luggage for nearly all the time.

The Prius is a mid-sized sedan. Base price is $21500
Base price of a Honda Accord Automatic is $21800
Nissa Altima $20470
Toyota Camry Automatic $20630

Obviously this isn't a line by line comparison, but the Prius isn't partiularly expensive when compared to other mid-sized sedans.

Regarding "redundant luggage", that's not really a fair comment to make considering how seamlessly these systems compliment each other. It's really ONE system, not two redundant systems. Either one on its own wouldn't be powerful enough to power the car.


If you really being considerate about the environment DON'T DRIVE. Walk, cycle, move so you can walk or cycle to work.

There is no such thing as green car.
Discussing green cars is a bit like deciding which poison to consume based on which will do the least harm, or which weapon to hand to the phsycopath so that he will do the least harm.

And before you look at my other posts and find that I drive a car, yes I do and enjoy it.

There, now I feel a bit better.

I couldn't agree with you more. Driving a Prius uses resources and has a negative effect on the environment. There's no reason to be smug about driving one.

However, if you're going to drive a car anyways, why not drive the most efficient one possible.

Assuming the lifetime of the car is 150k miles and that gas averages $5. Compared to a car that gets 25mpg, the Prius saves you about 15k. That's about 4x the "hybrid-car premium". Accounting for the fact that gas will almost certainly be over $5 in less than two years (maybe two months at this rate), the savings would be even more.

It's not a hard math problem.

[kington99]

Regarding "redundant luggage", that's not really a fair comment to make considering how seamlessly these systems compliment each other. It's really ONE system, not two redundant systems. Either one on its own wouldn't be powerful enough to power the car.



Regardless of how seamlessly the two power systems blend, when rolling along at 60mph it's like driving with a large motor and a stack of batteries in the boot. The 1.5 litre engine is presumably not any lighter than units that can easily power a car on their own (like the 1.3 in my car).

[MuniAddict]

Regardless of how seamlessly the two power systems blend, when rolling along at 60mph it's like driving with a large motor and a stack of batteries in the boot. The 1.5 litre engine is presumably not any lighter than units that can easily power a car on their own (like the 1.3 in my car).And your point? As the driver of a prius, the battery pack(s) might as well be invisible since in no way does take up [I]any cargo or passenger space. In fact, there is an amazing amount of space both in the hatchback cargo area, and everywhere else. Wherever the pack is, it's not taking up one sintilla of useable space. As far as the weight or anything else you refer to as "lugging" around, it's doing so and getting 55MPG to boot! It's simply not an issue at all.:)

[swarbrim]

Has anyone mentioned the Seat Ibiza Ecomotive or the VW Polo Bluemotion?

VW Polo Bluemotion - "Modifications to engine, bodywork and transmission mean 70mpg is possible, while a CO2 figure of 102g/km beats even a Toyota Prius.."

Seat Ibiza Ecomotive - Averages 74.3mpg over urban and extra-urban driving and if driven super sensibly can reach 88.3mpg on the motorway. And the CO2 emissions are even less in this than the Polo Bluemotion.

And in addition to this brilliant cars, they harm the environment less than the Toymota Prius due to them not having two engines.

Something to surely be considered?

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2007/10/07/065928.4-lg.jpg

[EDIT]it's doing so and getting 55MPG to boot!
55mpg is not that great Terry, my dads 1.9 Turbo Diesel (same engine that's in pretty much every diesel Skoda, VW, Audi etc) will reach that easy, and I bet it's a lot more fun to drive...

[MuniAddict]

55mpg is not that great Terry, a my dads 1.9 Turbo Diesel (same engine that's in pretty much every diesel Skoda, VW, Audi etc) will reach that easy, and I bet it's a lot more fun to drive...Not that great? Even if you only acheive the "real world" estimate of 48/46, that still makes the prius the undisputed LEADER in MPG...by a LONG shot! I don't know about other countries and what they have to compare, but No other non- hybrid car comes close, period. There will always be those that claim 89mpg on their 30 year old vw rabbit or something, but that's a fairy tale.

If that were true, they would be on the market kicking the crap out of prius sales. And it's a FACT that the TV marketing for a non-hybrid that gets better mpg than a prius, would be blanketing the country..the world... with TV exposure and print! And EVERYBODY would be tripping over the next person to own one and be driving one.

Again, the average, non-hybrid driver in the US is lucky if they're getting even 20mpg in the city, so my 55MPG (*in the city too!*) is fantastic! And with "hypermiling" I could increase that fairly easily to 75mpg or more. Bottom line for me is the [U]thousands of dollars in gas saving EACH year that can go to something more worthwhile..like more unis!:D:cool::):p

[maestro8]

What is all this "break even" nonsense? What are they comparing it to?
Net cost of ownership = cost of Prius - savings in fuel expenses + loss of value in selling "old" car - selling price of "old car".

The "break even point" is when the net cost = 0, and being that the savings take time to accumulate, the question becomes, when do I break even? The next question is, how much service will my Prius need in that time? The above formula does not take any service into account.

When a consumer has many choices, such as in the automotive market, net cost becomes a major factor in his/her decision. Here is where the "break even point" becomes important. Unless one has lots of money just laying around, it doesn't make economic sense to throw away money + a functional automobile just to "make the switch to Hybrid".

Being that the Prius is far from a traditional automobile, service costs can become a major factor. Many, many auto dealerships charge higher service rates in comparison to independent repair shops, and they also insist on using OEM parts, which can cost more than after-market. (Do after-market parts even exist for the Pruis?) Furthermore, the Prius' complexity bars most "backyard mechanics" from doing their own repairs, saving even more money.

Granted, many modern cars are so computerized that a home-grown tune-up is but impossible for most DIYers, but there are still many systems that are still serviceable.

Needless to say, there are many factors in considering the net cost of an automobile, and people who care about their money will care about the net cost. "Break even" isn't nonsense, it's actually quite sensible.

[swarbrim]

Not that great? Even if you only acheive the "real world" estimate of 48/46, that still makes the prius the undisputed LEADER in MPG...by a LONG shot! I don't know about other countries and what they have to compare, but No other non- hybrid car comes close, period. There will always be those that claim 89mpg on their 30 year old vw rabbit or something, but that's a fairy tale.

If that were true, they would be on the market kicking the crap out of prius sales. And it's a FACT that the TV marketing for a non-hybrid that gets better mpg than a prius, would be blanketing the country..the world... with TV exposure and print! And EVERYBODY would be tripping over the next person to own one and be driving one.

Again, the average, non-hybrid driver in the US is lucky if they're getting even 20mpg in the city, so my 55MPG (*in the city too!*) is fantastic! And with "hypermiling" I could increase that fairly easily to 75mpg or more. Bottom line for me is the [U]thousands of dollars in gas saving EACH year that can go to something more worthwhile..like more unis!:D:cool::):p

Terry, it's difficult to talk to you really. I feel you have bought a Prius and now will not here anything about any other car. BUT if "your" going to continue *using*annoying ways to over sell something and draw attention to phrases that have been engraved in your head then I think my skills in the English language will let me down trying to convince you otherwise.

All I can say is look into the Seat Ibiza Ecomotive and tell me that the economy figures for that car aren't better than the Prius.

Cheers.

Oh, and "There will always be those that claim 89mpg on their 30 year old vw rabbit or something, but that's a fairy tale." I have no idea what the fuck you mean by this. Are you referring to me talking about a Polo Bluemotion (that's more economical than your car)? Or talking about Edd when he said he can reach a high mpg mark in his Rover 100 (a car a lot faster and cheaper than your car)?

[MuniAddict]

Net cost of ownership = cost of Prius - savings in fuel expenses + loss of value in selling "old" car - selling price of "old car".

The "break even point" is when the net cost = 0, and being that the savings take time to accumulate, the question becomes, when do I break even? The next question is, how much service will my Prius need in that time? The above formula does not take any service into account.

When a consumer has many choices, such as in the automotive market, net cost becomes a major factor in his/her decision. Here is where the "break even point" becomes important. Unless one has lots of money just laying around, it doesn't make economic sense to throw away money + a functional automobile just to "make the switch to Hybrid".

Being that the Prius is far from a traditional automobile, service costs can become a major factor. Many, many auto dealerships charge higher service rates in comparison to independent repair shops, and they also insist on using OEM parts, which can cost more than after-market. (Do after-market parts even exist for the Pruis?) Furthermore, the Prius' complexity bars most "backyard mechanics" from doing their own repairs, saving even more money.

Granted, many modern cars are so computerized that a home-grown tune-up is but impossible for most DIYers, but there are still many systems that are still serviceable.

Needless to say, there are many factors in considering the net cost of an automobile, and people who care about their money will care about the net cost. "Break even" isn't nonsense, it's actually quite sensible.That's fine, but why don't the "break even" scenarios take ALL cars into account, and not just hybrids. The great deal I got on mine and the high gas prices will mean a very fast "payback" in savings. I can see if you buy a new one, especially since there is such a HUGE demand for them, and they're gouging ppl by selling them at thousands higher than MSRP, then it would take longer, but even economy cars are priced almost the same as what I paid. And mine has the coveted HOV stickers, not available since 2/07. I'm happy.

Btw, if I had decided to just replace my current '03 Honda crv with a new '08, it would have cost me about $4,500 more than the prius, so the payback, break even point would NEVER come since the MPG is no better than what I was getting on my '03.

[mscalisi]

The 1.5 liter is almost certainly lighter than the 2.4+ liter engines in comparable mid-sized sedan. Combined with the electric motors, it performs more similarly to a car with a large4/small6 cylinder engine than an econobox with a 1.5.

It's not correct to compare the Prius to subcompact cars.

Regardless of how seamlessly the two power systems blend, when rolling along at 60mph it's like driving with a large motor and a stack of batteries in the boot. The 1.5 litre engine is presumably not any lighter than units that can easily power a car on their own (like the 1.3 in my car).

[maestro8]

That's fine, but why don't the "break even" scenarios take ALL cars into account, and not just hybrids. The great deal I got on mine and the high gas prices will mean a very fast "payback" in savings.... so the payback, break even point would NEVER come since the MPG is no better than what I was getting on my '03.
You answered your own question.

The "net cost formula" applies to every consumer item: appliances, computers, furniture, etc. Only automobiles factor fuel expenses into the equation ;)

If you don't get a savings in fuel expenses, the only savings you'd get by upgrading is that in service costs. Older cars can break down more often than newer cars, and at some point, it makes no sense to hang on to an "old clunker".

That being said, if you have a functional, dependable vehicle, service costs don't enter into the equation, unless the new car you're buying has significantly higher service costs... we all like to assume a new car won't need service, but rarely is that the case. That's why warranties are often bundled with new car sales.

[MuniAddict]

The 1.5 liter is almost certainly lighter than the 2.4+ liter engines in comparable mid-sized sedan. Combined with the electric motors, it performs more similarly to a car with a large4/small6 cylinder engine than an econobox with a 1.5.

It's not correct to compare the Prius to subcompact cars.Haha, yeah the subcompact cars don't need any more humiliation.;)

[kington99]

The 1.5 liter is almost certainly lighter than the 2.4+ liter engines in comparable mid-sized sedan. Combined with the electric motors, it performs more similarly to a car with a large4/small6 cylinder engine than an econobox with a 1.5.

It's not correct to compare the Prius to subcompact cars.


this is evidently a cultural difference, a car of that size in this country would be more likely to have an engine around 1.4 to 1.6 litres. Anything over 2 litre in a car that size would be more of a sports car.

[mscalisi]

Great! Um...where can I get one?

Diesel cars tend to be more efficient. Unfortunately, there are no new Diesel cars available for sale in California (that I know of).

The truth remains, the Prius is the most efficient mass-produced car you can drive off the lot in the US, and especially in CA. This is undisputable.

It's also likely the most efficient car it's size and power in the world.

Also, if you took the cars you're mentioning here, and scaled Toyotas hybrid technology down to size, and applied it to Diesel engines, you'd certainly have cars that are even more efficient.

Has anyone mentioned the Seat Ibiza Ecomotive or the VW Polo Bluemotion?

VW Polo Bluemotion - "Modifications to engine, bodywork and transmission mean 70mpg is possible, while a CO2 figure of 102g/km beats even a Toyota Prius.."

Seat Ibiza Ecomotive - Averages 74.3mpg over urban and extra-urban driving and if driven super sensibly can reach 88.3mpg on the motorway. And the CO2 emissions are even less in this than the Polo Bluemotion.

And in addition to this brilliant cars, they harm the environment less than the Toymota Prius due to them not having two engines.

Something to surely be considered?

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2007/10/07/065928.4-lg.jpg

[EDIT]
55mpg is not that great Terry, my dads 1.9 Turbo Diesel (same engine that's in pretty much every diesel Skoda, VW, Audi etc) will reach that easy, and I bet it's a lot more fun to drive...

[ThisGuyIKnow]

With current infrastructure the ideal car would be a diesel hybrid and you'd have a source of biodiesel nearby. Petroleum prices will only go up, but as biodeisel production levels and technologies increase it's price will do down. Also I've been told that diesel engines get slightly better MPG with biodiesel than petrodiesel.

I think you can get a diesel hybrid in Sweden.

[critter]

I have always thought that the Honda Civic Hatch was the best car every made. Now it comes in 4 door version called the Fit. I would go with the a Fit for sure.
Gas aside, I really like the roomy back. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I find the back seats fold away nicely. 27612 Roomy! Four adults can play cards.

27611 I can't quite close the hatch when I'm fully stretched out(5'11")
27613my 29er has too much room. Over a foot of clearance
27614If you don't want to put the seats down you can put the seats up with one little click.

The Prius slopes down in the back of the car which cuts on head clearance for adults when sitting in the back seats. The Fit maybe be a smaller car, but head clearance for people in the back is bigger.

[MuniAddict]

Here's another big plus to the prius and other hybrids. Depending on your driving style, the hybrid battery system is in use during driving when the engine is not needed. When your stopped, slowing down, when accelerating slowly, and when at cruising speed it can alternate between engine and battery.

This means that if you put on 100,000 miles in say, 10 years, this mileage could be literally close to being "split" between the engine & the battery pack. So, in essence, both the hybrid battery and the engine would actaully only have 50,000 miles each!

This could very well explain why these cars last so long, like the guy who uses a prius as a taxi (http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/500/DSC00274lgx1.jpg) and has over 200,000 miles so far with no problems! Everything still original with no major work or repairs.

[Hazmat]

Apparently the 2009 model of the Jazz (Fit) will be alot better and very clever then the outgoing model. :D

[evil-nick]

This means that if you put on 100,000 miles in say, 10 years, this mileage could be literally close to being "split" between the engine & the battery pack. So, in essence, both the hybrid battery and the engine would actaully only have 50,000 miles each!

Perhaps for hybrids they should do a split system, using overall mileage and hours of use. Mileage isn't always a fair indicator. Case in point, my '92 Accord had 260,800 (and change) miles on it when I traded it in in '02 for my '99 Civic. The clutch was original, and (believe it or not), the shocks were original too! The secret to its longevity? A) Get on highway. B) Set cruise control to desired speed. C) Drive 2 hours before stopping for food/bathroom/gas/customs agents etc. Sure, the car had a ton of mileage on it, but the vast majority was put on with the RPM at about 2500 for several hours. If I had bought an Insight when I got my Civic, the gas differential would have paid for it in 3 years I think it was... and that was with gas at under $2/gal ;) (Don't quote me on this, it was a hasty calculation performed at the dinner table many years ago)

Semi-related... Different areas have different ideas of what is low mileage. Someone said something in an earlier post (Terry?) about getting 150K miles out of a car... That's too low for me! I grew up in rural NH, so driving was a necessity, and I find a car with 150K miles on it to not be that bad. (My Civic has 170+K on it). For me, it's the body of the car that's likely to go before the engine (damn salt on the roads...)

BTW, anyone see that Toyota is putting solar panels on the Japanese Prius next year to help power the AC? :D

[Hazmat]

WOW!!! They just name the Jazz GLi (The entry level model) as the most stolen Honda in Australia. :eek:

[critter]

On this rock in which I live, I see Prius' everywhere.

American and European cars have always been less popular here.

[Hazmat]

On this rock in which I live, I see Prius' everywhere.

American and European cars have always been less popular here.
Well here in Australia, it's mostly the Japanese cars that are winning. So i guess that includes the Jazz (Fit) and Prius. :p

[johnfoss]

And your point? As the driver of a prius, the battery pack(s) might as well be invisible since in no way does take up [I]any cargo or passenger space.His point was that it weighs the same whether you think about it or not. Dragging all that battery weight up to speed costs in energy, and is part of the overall "energy cost" of the vehicle. The car essentially has one transmission and two engines (not sure how many actual electric motors are in play but you know what I mean). Not the most efficient system overall, but currently it's clearly a successful solution until electric or other technologies get better.

I don't see Prius owners thinking they're saving the Earth. I see them saving money on gas! If they're smug about that, most of peoples' reactions is probably annoyance that they don't have one.

Also I've been told that diesel engines get slightly better MPG with biodiesel than petrodiesel.Everything I've read says that biodiesel delivers less power than petrodiesel; it doesn't burn as efficiently or whatever, which leads to more fuel required to go an equal distance. This should translate to lower MPG.

Oh, and "There will always be those that claim 89mpg on their 30 year old vw rabbit or something, but that's a fairy tale." I have no idea what the f*** you mean by this. Are you referring to me talking about a Polo Bluemotion (that's more economical than your car)?Answering for me, not Terry, but basically yes.

Let me explain. There's a difference between EPA or other standards-based fuel economy figures and stuff claimed by individual drivers with individual cars. There's even a difference between EPA numbers and EPA numbers. I believe they are or have been switching over to a new system that gives more real-world (lower) numbers. But these numbers are achieved in a method that's identical for all the cars they test, and represent a variety of driving conditions to simulate real-world driving. Hence you can compare one car to another.

That same car can be modified to run hotter (leaner), using less gas at the cost of increased engine wear. It can also be lightened by removing "unnecessary" weight such as the back seats, pollution control hardware, etc. Then that same car can be driven downhill with the engine off for several miles, and otherwise in a highway-only situation with no stopping and starting, for mileage figures ranging from much higher to way, way higher.

But it is extremely unlikely that the mileage figures being achieved by individual owners and customizers are using a system anything close to the combination of driving scenarios in an EPA test, for instance.

That said, those little cars swarbrim pointed out in his post look cool. I especially like the one in the picture. It looks very light, and quite a bit smaller than the Prius. Unfortunately none of them is available over here. The Prius must have a lot more competition in the area of pure fuel economy
in countries where fuel is more expensive than here (and/or where smaller cars are available).

Terry would also point out that his Prius probably carries the extra weight of a few features those smaller cars don't have, such as airbags and possibly a stronger frame to protect the occupants, and various higher-end amenities.

[MuniAddict]

I'll point out again, that a prius hybrid with, say 100k on the odometer, actually has only 50k on the battery and 50k on the engine! That's a rough estimate but my point is that with the hybrid system the total miles are "split" between the engine and the battery system, resulting in a car that seemingly runs forever!

Toyota has put the synergy battery system to the test and gave up after 167,000 miles, because not only did it continue to run without probelms, but wihthout any appreciable degradation of power! It still ran like brand new! As for the "extra weight" of the hybrid battery, it's fine with me I can't complain getting 50mpg! And yeah, for me, it's all about the mpg.:D

[critter]

Wow you must drive like 60k miles per year to save that much! My yearly gas cost based on $4 per gallon is roughly $2,500.

Now with gas a buck cheaper, don't you wish you got a Fit?:D

[johnfoss]

Now with gas a buck cheaper, don't you wish you got a Fit?:DMy goodness it *is* a buck cheaper now! How nice. You seem to think it's going to stay that way?

Toyotas and Hondas are both great cars, you could do far worse in a choice of brand in terms of reliability and resale value. I love my Toyota, though it's not as fuel-efficient as I wish...

[Jerrick]

Gas has never bothered me, and now with it being around 2.40-2.60 a gallon, I dont even think about it. Its been dropping about 10 cents every couple of days pretty much. Cheaper than a gallon of milk now. As long as milk doesnt raise a lot ill be happy.

Ford Explorer 1994.