Turntablism (music genre)

[peleschramm]

I've recently been kinda getting into Turntablism. Do any of you know any good artists?

This is a good site. (http://turntablism.com.au/)


Just discuss Turntablism.

[unibikeling]

I've recently been kinda getting into Turntablism. Do any of you know any good artists?

This is a good site. (http://turntablism.com.au/)


Just discuss Turntablism.

DUDE! THATS SOME CRAZY STUFF! IT BLEW MY MIND!

[maestro8]

Just discuss Turntablism.
Calling a "turntablist" a musician is like calling someone who knows how to use a photocopier a painter.

It just ain't art. It's close, but it's not the same.

[peleschramm]

Calling a "turntablist" a musician is like calling someone who knows how to use a photocopier a painter.

It just ain't art. It's close, but it's not the same.
What do you call this then?:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=OPv1e7HmBxg

I think you are crazy.

Edit: go like 25 seconds in.

[unibikeling]

What do you call this then?:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=OPv1e7HmBxg

I think you are crazy.

Edit: go like 25 seconds in.

DUDE! once again, YOU BLEW MY MIND! OH MY GOD!! THHHHHHHHHHHHATTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTSSSSSSSSSSSSSS CRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[peleschramm]

DUDE! once again, YOU BLEW MY MIND! OH MY GOD!! THHHHHHHHHHHHATTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTSSSSSSSSSSSSSS CRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
yes. Sadly this genre isn't all that popular, so it is very hard to find stuff like this/buy the music.

[unibikeling]

yes. Sadly this genre isn't all that popular, so it is very hard to find stuff like this/buy the music.

its CRAZY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!

[explosionsq]

Calling a "turntablist" a musician is like calling someone who knows how to use a photocopier a painter.

I think it's more allegory to calling a "photoshopper" a painter.

They take sound that is already there and alter it artistically, not just copy it.

I'd consider it art, but to each his own.

[peleschramm]

Personally, I like turntablism with A LOT of scratches. It really sounds absolutely nothing like the original version.

[maestro8]

What do you call this then?
I call it an exhibition of percussive noises with a complete lack of dynamics.

I call it a waste of a perfectly good record.

I call it a poor choice of instrument for a would-be musician.

I think you are crazy.
I think you're making an unsubstantiated link between my judgement of value and my sanity.

I also think you are impolite.

Take that last comment back or I'll never talk to you again.

[MuniAddict]

Haha I remember "scratching" when I was a club DJ from about '80-91. Oh, and that's the 1980's-90's lol! not the 1800's in case you were thinking that haha! But a little went-goes-a long way! Variety is the spice and plus it ruins the records pretty quick. In addition to playing dance music, I had to run and operate the then state of the art lightshow system, play music videos, make numerous announcements, run drink specials, MC contests..like the Wet T-shirt yeah! (My gf at the time wasn't too happy about that lol!)

It was a full-time job with benefits and I made about $180 per night, and that was more than 20 years ago now! Hot on the charts at the time: Billy Idol, The Cure, INXS, B-52s, Oingo Boingo...etc.

[phlegm]

Controllerism is neater than turntablism. It's more craft than art, but it still can be fun.

[monkeyman]

Bjork: Everything is music. When I go home, I throw nickels in the oven and it's music. Crash, boom, bang!

Heehee

[john_childs]

My new favorite quote:
The artist's task is to extract from fashion whatever element it may contain of poetry within history, to distil the eternal from the transitory.

Substitute "musician" for "artist".

If you have true artistic talent you should apply it to something eternal. If you have no artistic talent then you can follow the herd and make pop and whatever is in fashion at the time.

Not to say that there is no creativity in turntablism, but as art it is truly transitory.

[Goats_On_Unicycles]

I call it a poor choice of instrument for a would-be musician.

I know lots of turntable artists who are amazing musicians. Most people don't just "pick up" the turntables. Also, if you're doing what you love, go for it.
It's all music. It's all good. Everything is music.

Not to say that there is no creativity in turntablism, but as art it is truly transitory.
That's a great quote. Turntable artists, however, can make something that will last as long as Bach. Lots of it is pop, but there is some great stuff they do. It's a new genre. You can hardly call it transitory at this stage.
Also, think about this, Bach was unknown and unrespected in his day. A few hundred years later people realized that he's the shit.

[JohnnyReggae]

It may fit very loosely as a music genre, but I think it's quite lame. It seems to be more of a performance art than a musical art, again quite lame. In my opinion it doesn't sound good at all. Rather let the vinyl spin and play the music it is supposed to play.

Turntable artists, however, can make something that will last as long as Bach.

You kidding right ?..... not ? ... uummmm... ok....?? I think not. Something that is on the outer fringes of music does not make a Bach, as much as Scat can be compared with Bach... wiki..wiki..wiki

[Jerrick]

Im surprised Kid Koala (http://youtube.com/watch?v=KbFIGFv4GLQ)hasnt been mentioned.

[kington99]

What do you call this then?:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=OPv1e7HmBxg




a DJ having a seizure?

[john_childs]

I know lots of turntable artists who are amazing musicians. Most people don't just "pick up" the turntables. Also, if you're doing what you love, go for it.
It's all music. It's all good. Everything is music.

...

That's a great quote. Turntable artists, however, can make something that will last as long as Bach. Lots of it is pop, but there is some great stuff they do. It's a new genre. You can hardly call it transitory at this stage.
Also, think about this, Bach was unknown and unrespected in his day. A few hundred years later people realized that he's the shit.
My snarky remark is directed at turntablism being just pop style. It is a performance art meant to entertain in the here and now. People at a club want to be entertained now. They don't care whether the performance they are listening to has lasting value. They just care that it entertains them now and has a certain social style now.

As music, turntablism is all style and little substance (much like rap).

If you have true musical talent, please don't waste your youth years exploring and getting immersed in transitory things like turntablism. You'll regret those wasted years later on.

Turntablism is mostly about rhythm. If you find the rhythm aspect of music to be your thing then you would be better off to study and explore drumming and/or bass rhythms. You can be far more expressive with drumming than you can with turntablism. For exploration and creativity you can explore electronic drumming. There is much that you can do with electronic processing and sounds in drumming. Get creative. There is much to explore and be innovative in rhythm and drumming and contribute to music that will have lasting musical qualities.

[Goats_On_Unicycles]

You kidding right ?..... not ? ... uummmm... ok....?? I think not. Something that is on the outer fringes of music does not make a Bach, as much as Scat can be compared with Bach... wiki..wiki..wiki
This makes me sick. You can't say something is on the outer fringes of music. It's effing music. You obviously don't like this kind of music. Seriously, I don't think most of it will last a decade but a turntable artist is just as likely to be a genious as anybody else.
It's not up to YOU wether it's deep or not.
People at a club want to be entertained now. They don't care whether the performance they are listening to has lasting value. They just care that it entertains them now and has a certain social style now.
Louis Armstorng played for dance people and he didn't care if his music had lasting value. Say no more.


If you have true musical talent, please don't waste your youth years exploring and getting immersed in transitory things like turntablism. You'll regret those wasted years later on.

You would. I probably wouldn't. I'd still play my other instruments though.
If you have musical talent, do what you love.

And if people say it's not music, you're probably doing something right.

[peleschramm]

I call it an exhibition of percussive noises with a complete lack of dynamics.

I call it a waste of a perfectly good record.

I call it a poor choice of instrument for a would-be musician.


I think you're making an unsubstantiated link between my judgement of value and my sanity.

I also think you are impolite.

Take that last comment back or I'll never talk to you again.
Lighten up man, I wasn't being serious about your sanity. I apologize for any offense that was taken, as my comment was meant as more of a playful statement not to be regarded seriously.


Edit: though now that I think about it, I don't actually remember ever reading a post of yours that I agreed with...

[peleschramm]

By the way guys, this is the song that made me look into turntablism: http://www.imeem.com/people/Lrxq4g/music/IZDHqWj2/sweatshop_union_cheese_cuttin/

It's by Sweatshop Union, a rap group that I listen to.

[JohnnyReggae]

This makes me sick. You can't say something is on the outer fringes of music. It's effing music. You obviously don't like this kind of music. Seriously, I don't think most of it will last a decade but a turntable artist is just as likely to be a genious as anybody else.
It's not up to YOU wether it's deep or not.

Scratching is a DJ'ing skill, it's not music. I appreciate the skills of a DJ as a good friend of mine is an excellent PsyTrance DJ but in my opinion it is not music. Similarly I appreciate the skill of Beat Boxing, and sure it's great to listen to once but if I had to listen to an hour of it I would probably throw up, or rather just walk out the door. It's not music in the sense of music to me. Clearly we would disagree on this point which is ok. So yes I would decide for myself whether something is "Deep" or not, and turntablism is not.

[phlegm]

Scratching is a DJ'ing skill, it's not music.

Why can't it be both? Skillful musicians make good music.

I don't understand why it's really necessary to split hairs over whether or not something is music. Is it music when someone strums three chords on a guitar? How is that more musical than someone manipulating a record to a beat? :confused:

[mscalisi]

DJs are definitely artists. Maybe not musicians exactly, but defiitely artists with sound as a tapestry.

[johnfoss]

I think the discussion in this thread alone is enough to qualify it as art. So, having accomplished that, we move on to the next thing. Is it good? Some people like it, that means it's good for them. If it brings a paycheck that's good also. Most people don't like every genre of music. I would rather listen to a bunch of that stuff than opera, for instance. Call me uncultured.

I remember when there were popular "mix" versions of popular songs on the radio. We're talking mid-80s or so. "Get Outta My Mix," for example, by Thomas Dolby. It's a mix version of one or more of his own songs. At least he's the original artist then. I'm not big on sampling, or otherwise using someone else's work to create your own. I'd rather see "artists" start with their own riffs.

[Goats_On_Unicycles]

Scratching is a DJ'ing skill, it's not music.
Don't say something isn't music.
The way you're acting is like saying, "you ride trials. That's just hopping over stuff. You're not a unicyclist."
It might not be emotionaly accesable to you but it can be deep.

[JohnnyReggae]

Don't say something isn't music.
The way you're acting is like saying, "you ride trials. That's just hopping over stuff. You're not a unicyclist."

I did qualify my opinion...
It's not music in the sense of music to me. Clearly we would disagree on this point which is ok.

I agree with John on this point as well. So lets just move on.......

[ntappin]

Im surprised Kid Koala (http://youtube.com/watch?v=KbFIGFv4GLQ)hasnt been mentioned.

I love him, seen him twice this year alone, and I have most of his cds, two of which are signed.

I think people aren't considering him a scratch dj because he is too musical and people don't quite understand that you can actually play melodies as well as rythms with scratching.

Most scratch DJ's focus alot on Rythm, but then when you see people like Kid Koala, who make melodies by scratching its a bit more obvious that there is more to it than just pulling on records.

To Johnny reggae and others who say that Scratch Dj's are just people making rythms, then what are drummers? Yes they have to tune their drums and stuff, but the Dj's need to worry about the record speeds, and many other things, so I you are being a little quick to judge something that you may or may not have had much exposure to.

I might be completely wrong, its possible you know more than I do about how Dj's do what they do, but from what I have learned and seen, and with my experience with music, a good dj is at least as much of a musician as a percussionist, and many of the best DJ's I have heard are classically trained musicians, so it definitely takes musical skill and knowledge to be good.

So what is it that these DJ's lack that doesn't make them musicians?

[maestro8]

So what is it that these DJ's lack that doesn't make them musicians?
One major aspect that you're failing to recognize is dynamics.

For a deejay, either the music is playing or it isn't. They don't have the option to play quietly or loudly... the volume needs to be fairly consistent or else the "show" will be difficult to hear for some audience members. Often times a compressor is used to normalize the volume coming from the deejay's equipment, such that he hasn't any control over his volume.

Dynamics make music come alive. From the human voice to woodwinds, strings and percussion instruments, dynamics are an integral part in the expression of music. Even the most basic synthesizer, the Theremin, offers volume control. All this is lost on a deejay.

Another aspect that separates musicians from deejays is rhythm. In many modern bands, the drummer is the "time piece" which keeps the band synchronized and playing at a constant tempo. Keeping constant tempo is a skill which takes hundreds if not thousands of hours of practice to develop.

For the deejay, they've a prerecorded drum track over which to perform. There is no need to keep tempo, and their "band" won't fall out of sync if they miss a beat. You can argue that rhythm is an integral skill of deejaying but there's a huge difference between "identifying rhythm" and "producing rhythm". I'd challenge you to provide examples of deejays producing perfect tempo.

There are many other nuances of music that are lost on deejays, but without dynamics or rhythm, what does it even matter?

[mscalisi]

Does that mean that harpsicordianists aren't musicians?

I agree that turntables aren't quite musical instruments, but they are instruments of music.

Think of DJs as the multimedia artists of the sonic realm.

One major aspect that you're failing to recognize is dynamics.

For a deejay, either the music is playing or it isn't. They don't have the option to play quietly or loudly... the volume needs to be fairly consistent or else the "show" will be difficult to hear for some audience members. Often times a compressor is used to normalize the volume coming from the deejay's equipment, such that he hasn't any control over his volume.

Dynamics make music come alive. From the human voice to woodwinds, strings and percussion instruments, dynamics are an integral part in the expression of music. Even the most basic synthesizer, the Theremin, offers volume control. All this is lost on a deejay.

[maestro8]

Does that mean that harpsicordianists aren't musicians?
No, it means you're being a smart-@ss. ;)

There's a reason that the harpsicord fell out of popular use, and the main reason for that was the piano: a similar instrument with the addition of dynamic control.

I agree that turntables aren't quite musical instruments, but they are instruments of music.
By that logic, then a snack vending machine is an instrument of a gourmet chef.

Think of DJs as the multimedia artists of the sonic realm.
If a DJ had any artistic talent, he'd be making the records, not spinning them.

[Jerrick]

One major aspect that you're failing to recognize is dynamics.

For a deejay, either the music is playing or it isn't. They don't have the option to play quietly or loudly... the volume needs to be fairly consistent or else the "show" will be difficult to hear for some audience members. Often times a compressor is used to normalize the volume coming from the deejay's equipment, such that he hasn't any control over his volume.

Dynamics make music come alive. From the human voice to woodwinds, strings and percussion instruments, dynamics are an integral part in the expression of music. Even the most basic synthesizer, the Theremin, offers volume control. All this is lost on a deejay.

I think you are thinking of just standard Djs, who put the record/cd in, and watch people dance. But even there, they can control the volume. Do you not see the channel selector they are using constantly? How much dynamic control they have with just that. letting only the slightest sound from one album play while the other one is almost at full, switching one side off, and slowly let it crescendo back in. I have no clue how you can say there are no dynamics here. They have as much control over their dynamics as I do on any other instrument. Heck, they have a whole mixer board, they can probably do more and have more control over dynamics than I can.


Another aspect that separates musicians from deejays is rhythm. In many modern bands, the drummer is the "time piece" which keeps the band synchronized and playing at a constant tempo. Keeping constant tempo is a skill which takes hundreds if not thousands of hours of practice to develop.


Hundreds of thousands of hours of practice? For some people maybe, but rhythm can usually be established within a few mins. Its not hard to keep a steady 4/4 count going. The hours of practice are put learning to do fills, and more complicated rhythms while staying on beat. Like me, I can sit down at a drum set and do any time signature and keep that beat for hours, but I cant do any of the crazy fills someone who has put months into to learn. I also dont have a drum set, so I cant practice much at all. Twice a month really.


For the deejay, they've a prerecorded drum track over which to perform. There is no need to keep tempo, and their "band" won't fall out of sync if they miss a beat. You can argue that rhythm is an integral skill of deejaying but there's a huge difference between "identifying rhythm" and "producing rhythm". I'd challenge you to provide examples of deejays producing perfect tempo.

Even using prerecorded beats and sounds, they still create rhythm. They can take whats recorded, and completely change it into a new beat, a new tempo, a new time signature. They can still go offbeat too. They are spinning two records or cds at a time. If they set the album a few mm or cms off, the beat is off compared to the 2nd album, and its something very easy to hear when two sounds are not synching up together.

If I remember right, you were a Dj or something along that line, so go grab your tables and get two records going, get them synched if you can, then try some basic stuff, and see if you are still on beat. Also, film it too, lets have some fun with this.

There are many other nuances of music that are lost on deejays, but without dynamics or rhythm, what does it even matter?

Yep, it matter. Show me the list.

[phlegm]

There's a reason that the harpsicord fell out of popular use, and the main reason for that was the piano: a similar instrument with the addition of dynamic control.

Certain keyboard controlled synthesizers don't necessarily have dynamic (volume) control (through the keys), but they're still popular.

Check it out: planetdj.com sells volume pedals (http://www.planetdj.com/i--XVP10). A deejay could potentially use one to impart volume dynamics, just like an organist does.

[maestro8]

I think you are thinking of just standard Djs, who put the record/cd in, and watch people dance. But even there, they can control the volume... They have as much control over their dynamics as I do on any other instrument.
Yes, the controls are there... but 1) they're not used to produce dynamics and 2) they're just not used.

1) The controls are there to allow a deejay to normalize one record against another, to provide smooth transitions between records... but you can't use them to accentuate particular notes, as a woodwind player does with his breath... even with the use of an equalizer, you're still modulating the entire record, not a track or an instrument. It just doesn't work that way.

Furthermore, the deejay needs to maintain a relatively constant volume throughout his program... for both his benefit and that of the audience. If one passage is quiet and the next is blaring, people are going to miss out on parts of the program, or they're going to be pissed when you blow out their eardrums.

2) Turntablists use volume controls largely as on/off switches, so the back-cues don't come out through the house speakers... "scratch" mixers have even augmented the volume slider with a pushbutton... they sure aren't fine-tuning the volume while their hands are flying above the mixing board.

Its not hard to keep a steady 4/4 count going.
You aren't making much of an argument, unless you're claiming someone who can tap out quarter notes all day is a musician. To me, that's a metronome.

Even using prerecorded beats and sounds, they still create rhythm. They can take whats recorded, and completely change it into a new beat, a new tempo, a new time signature.
A deaf toddler can create a new tempo, just by hitting the 33/45 selector switch... that does not make him a musician. You're confusing creation with manipulation!

I agree there is some art to remixing, especially when done live, but it is an art that takes little talent. Modern deejay equipment allows one to mash buttons arhythmically, and the equipment keeps the beats in sync.

They can still go offbeat too. They are spinning two records or cds at a time. If they set the album a few mm or cms off, the beat is off compared to the 2nd album, and its something very easy to hear when two sounds are not synching up together.
Now you're talking about pattern matching. Again, this is something that does not make one a musician.

If I remember right, you were a Dj or something along that line, so go grab your tables and get two records going, get them synched if you can, then try some basic stuff, and see if you are still on beat.
Get them synched if you can? IMO, a deejay's number one job, above all else, is to keep the beat going. Nothing will kill the dancing vibe faster than mismatched beats, or worse, a cold cut.

I never got into turntablism as I never found it musically appealing. Instead, I augmented my deejay shows with live synth / sequencer performances. I fed the signals back through a sound processor, and sometimes through a laptop, and played with various effects there as well.

Unfortunately, my equipment is all disconnected right now. I'm fixing everything up and getting it ready for sale. I've lost most of my interest in deejaying since I've graduated college... and I'd trade my PA system for a Schlumpf hub in a heartbeat!

[Jerrick]

Yes, the controls are there... but 1) they're not used to produce dynamics and 2) they're just not used.

Furthermore, the deejay needs to maintain a relatively constant volume throughout his program... for both his benefit and that of the audience. If one passage is quiet and the next is blaring, people are going to miss out on parts of the program, or they're going to be pissed when you blow out their eardrums.

They can be, and they have. And of course its not just going to be super quiet, to super loud, in my post I said Crescendo. You should know what that means.

Even when it is a volume jump, many artists well have a build up, so you can hear and know that something big is coming. Some artsts dont, and sometimes ive been scared by it. Nice and quiet, then the jump is so unexpected it makes me jump a little. I love it, mainly cause its funny that it made me jump, but also because I wasnt expecting it.


2) Turntablists use volume controls largely as on/off switches, so the back-cues don't come out through the house speakers... "scratch" mixers have even augmented the volume slider with a pushbutton... they sure aren't fine-tuning the volume while their hands are flying above the mixing board.

Some do, and when I used to do a lot of stuff like Kid Koala, I know I was doing it too.


You aren't making much of an argument, unless you're claiming someone who can tap out quarter notes all day is a musician. To me, that's a metronome.

Haha, you're funny. You said that it takes hundreds of thousands of hours to have rhythm, I was saying for many people, it only takes minutes to have rhythm. Wasnt implying them to be musicians, just that they can keep rhythm.


A deaf toddler can create a new tempo, just by hitting the 33/45 selector switch... that does not make him a musician. You're confusing creation with manipulation!

Your taking the easy way out by pushing a button. Besides, I said more than just a tempo change, its funny that you choose the easiest part of the little list I put to try to argue about. You cant just push a button and change an album going 4/4 to 5/4.

All the quoting is annoying me haha.

The thing is, I think you are looking at the DJ from a club perspective. And thats makes all your stuff make sense, because if im going to the club, I dont care what the DJ is doing, as long as its going good.

But im looking at it differently. If I went and saw Kid Koala, dancing and stuff wouldnt be my 1st priority. Id want to watch and listen to what he creates with his instrument of choice.

Also, creation and manipulation go hand and hand. I have my guitar, the strings are tuned to how I want them to be tuned, and of course, the frets are there (sometimes). Just like an album that already has the sounds on it.

Now, the sounds are already there (like an album and any other instrument) and then I manipulate the strings, just like a DJ will manipulate an album to get his sounds, and that is creating music.

EDIT: Im also not into it anymore. It was always fun having house beats going along to a Kansas record and changing the guitar parts around.

[peleschramm]

Personally, I think it's stupid to argue whether or not turntablists are musicians (though I think they are).

The thing is, they take an old song(s) and manipulate it a lot. Is that not a song anymore. It doesn't matter what it is classified as, it doesn't matter how hard it is to produce this music/noise/whatever. What matters is that I enjoy listening to it, and there are some others that also enjoy listening to it.

People seem to get to picky about classifications when it really, really doesn't matter.

[Goats_On_Unicycles]

You're right Pele.
I just get so effing pissed off when people put something off as un-musical.


Especially when I catch them listening to Ringo Starr a couple minutes later... :p

[peleschramm]

bump.

This song right here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiHiRavOLis&eurl=http://turntablism.com.au/categories/dj-qbert/) is so amazing for just background music. Just so chill and relaxing.

[agentQ]

I call it an exhibition of percussive noises with a complete lack of dynamics.

I call it a waste of a perfectly good record.

I call it a poor choice of instrument for a would-be musician.

*sorry I did not read this whole thread*
Eh hem,
Are you seriously shitting on a quite real, serious musical profession?

Whatever your answer you are out of line if you cant agree that it is infact music, and Turntablist are infact musicians. They are not using the turntable to play other peoples music, this is what a DJ does, they use their machines much like a photomachine... well not so much.
A Turntablist will may play over someone else's music but they are creating a new track with their tunrtable. They become more like a singer, using the sound of manipulating a record and a volume controll (cross fader). They become diggers, like an archaeologist just to find the right bit of sound.

These days tunrtablist have "battle" records made with sound after scratch happy sound. These records are made for scratching and they are using a needle made for scratching... There is no waist of record. They will use this record over a simple drum loop made on any drum machine.

How is this not music? How are you to decide what is good and poor use/choice of instrument? What would be a better use of a record? To sit at Salvation Army for the rest of its life?

[agentQ]

You guys should check our DJ Mana (http://djmana.com/).

[agentQ]

Im surprised Kid Koala (http://youtube.com/watch?v=KbFIGFv4GLQ)hasnt been mentioned.

He is good. One of the first to get good at using sounds of horned instruments for is pallet.

[agentQ]

maestro8,

Just so we are clear do you know, have you heard the difference between a DJ,"Disc Jockey" and a Turntablist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turntablism)?

[john_childs]

Are you seriously shitting on a quite real, serious musical profession?

As a serious musical profession, Yes.

That turntablism is being considered a serious musical art is sad. As an instrument it is very lacking in musical content.

Maybe that is what this generation has been taught what music is supposed to be. Rhythmic scratches and compressed dynamics in one big blast of pumping noise. Where is the art in music any more? Music that you can listen deeply too and enjoy without the brain and the ears getting tired of it after 30 minutes. Music can be so much more than what you can get from turntablism.

[Goats_On_Unicycles]

As a serious musical profession, Yes.

That turntablism is being considered a serious musical art is sad. As an instrument it is very lacking in musical content.

Maybe that is what this generation has been taught what music is supposed to be. Rhythmic scratches and compressed dynamics in one big blast of pumping noise. Where is the art in music any more? Music that you can listen deeply too and enjoy without the brain and the ears getting tired of it after 30 minutes. Music can be so much more than what you can get from turntablism.
In reply to everything you said... do you respect Miles' opinion?

Doo-bop (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doo-Bop)

The opinion that turntable artists aren't musicians seems to be that of those who choose to not look deeply enough into it. You might not like it but if Miles Davis plays with turntables, I'd serious reconsider some of the things you've said.
Cuz I think Miles knows more about music than most others.

[john_childs]

In reply to everything you said... do you respect Miles' opinion?

Doo-bop (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doo-Bop)
Sometimes good musicians end up making crap records when they experiment. That's the risk of experimenting. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't.

Turntablism is entertainment and performance. It isn't so much a musical instrument.

[mscalisi]

I don't doubt turntabilism as an art, but I don't think it's accurate to call them musicians.

It would be contextually incorrect to give one of these artists a sheet of music and ask them to play it.

If a person cut up a bunch of paintings and assembled them into a new piece of art onto a canvas, you could call them an artist, but you wouldn't call them a painter.

Musical artists yes, but musicians no.


*sorry I did not read this whole thread*
Eh hem,
Are you seriously shitting on a quite real, serious musical profession?

Whatever your answer you are out of line if you cant agree that it is infact music, and Turntablist are infact musicians. They are not using the turntable to play other peoples music, this is what a DJ does, they use their machines much like a photomachine... well not so much.
A Turntablist will may play over someone else's music but they are creating a new track with their tunrtable. They become more like a singer, using the sound of manipulating a record and a volume controll (cross fader). They become diggers, like an archaeologist just to find the right bit of sound.

These days tunrtablist have "battle" records made with sound after scratch happy sound. These records are made for scratching and they are using a needle made for scratching... There is no waist of record. They will use this record over a simple drum loop made on any drum machine.

How is this not music? How are you to decide what is good and poor use/choice of instrument? What would be a better use of a record? To sit at Salvation Army for the rest of its life?

[Goats_On_Unicycles]

Sometimes good musicians end up making crap records when they experiment. That's the risk of experimenting. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't.

Turntablism is entertainment and performance. It isn't so much a musical instrument.
He wasn't experimenting. Before he died, Miles Davis played hip-hop.

But why make a deal out of it? You don't like it, I do.

Just saying something isn't music is just plain disrespectful.

[john_childs]

He wasn't experimenting. Before he died, Miles Davis played hip-hop.

But why make a deal out of it? You don't like it, I do.

Just saying something isn't music is just plain disrespectful.
Was he playing hip-hop or turntables? There's a difference.

Saying something in music is crap isn't being disrespectful. It's being honest. This isn't grade school where everyone gets a gold star just for trying. Crap needs to be called out as crap or you end up with yet more crap because the people playing the crap get false encouragement.

[maestro8]

have you heard the difference between a DJ,"Disc Jockey" and a Turntablist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turntablism)?
What does that difference matter when neither are musicians?

The tools are the same for both: a turntable and a mixer. The mechanics are nearly the same... move the record, move the crossfader. One guy's just a bit twitchier than the other.

[Goats_On_Unicycles]

Was he playing hip-hop or turntables? There's a difference.

Saying something in music is crap isn't being disrespectful. It's being honest. This isn't grade school where everyone gets a gold star just for trying. Crap needs to be called out as crap or you end up with yet more crap because the people playing the crap get false encouragement.
He was playing hip-hop. He chose to be accompanied by turntables rather than a band. That choice shows that he had much respect for deejays. He was very picky and critical about who he played with. He played with Herbie Hancock, Bill Evans, Gill Evans, John Coltrane, Jimi Hendrix just to name a few. He could get anyone for the job, he chose a deejay.

The album isn't crap. It's one of his best (unfortunately his last). You think it's crap but I don't. The music is unbelievable. If it sounds good... well god damn, it must be good.

[mscalisi]

Doo-Bop is definitely NOT one of Miles Davis's best album! Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking the album or the concept, but the album is pretty mediocre when compared to his earlier work. It might have something to do with the fact that it was finished without him.

He was playing hip-hop. He chose to be accompanied by turntables rather than a band. That choice shows that he had much respect for deejays. He was very picky and critical about who he played with. He played with Herbie Hancock, Bill Evans, Gill Evans, John Coltrane, Jimi Hendrix just to name a few. He could get anyone for the job, he chose a deejay.

The album isn't crap. It's one of his best (unfortunately his last). You think it's crap but I don't. The music is unbelievable. If it sounds good... well god damn, it must be good.

[mscalisi]

To say a style of music is crap isn't being "honest". It's expressing your opinion. (maybe your "honest opinion"). Truthfully though, it just means you don't "get it". Nothing wrong with that, there's lots of credible art that I "don't get".

Within the genre, some will suck, and some will be incredibly talented. To call the product of an extremely talented atist "crap" just because you don't connect with the music is being just a bit closed-minded.

Was he playing hip-hop or turntables? There's a difference.

Saying something in music is crap isn't being disrespectful. It's being honest. This isn't grade school where everyone gets a gold star just for trying. Crap needs to be called out as crap or you end up with yet more crap because the people playing the crap get false encouragement.

[peleschramm]

I can call Jimi Hendrix crap simply because I don't like him. I honestly thing his music is crap, because although he is very skilled, he makes terrible sounding music.

That is my opinion. It isn't fact. To you his music may be legendary.


You are getting confused with the fact that others have different opinions and different tastes.

[Goats_On_Unicycles]

Doo-Bop is definitely NOT one of Miles Davis's best album! Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking the album or the concept, but the album is pretty mediocre when compared to his earlier work. It might have something to do with the fact that it was finished without him.
It's not on a level with Kind of Blue, 'Round Midnight or Bitches Brew but I like it... :p

[john_childs]

To say a style of music is crap isn't being "honest". It's expressing your opinion. (maybe your "honest opinion"). Truthfully though, it just means you don't "get it". Nothing wrong with that, there's lots of credible art that I "don't get".

Within the genre, some will suck, and some will be incredibly talented. To call the product of an extremely talented atist "crap" just because you don't connect with the music is being just a bit closed-minded.
I'm not saying an entire gnere of music is crap or sucks. I'm saying that turntablism as a musical instrument is lacking. Goats expanded that to hip-hop and Miles Davis.

There are some aspects of hip-hop that I find OK.

If someone asked me if they should pursue turntablism as a musical outlet, I'm being honest and saying that it's not a worthy musical instrument. However, if it's your goal to hang out in clubs and get the ladies then maybe being the DJ and practicing turtablism would be your thing.

[mscalisi]

To be honest, it's not really my thing either. Nor do I "get" most hip-hop and related styles. I recognize that there are people with real talent who choose this type of music as an outlet.

Where I'm picking nits with you is that you're presenting your opinions as fact. It's not about giving everyone who shows up a star because it's obvious that some of these people demonstrate real skill and artistry, it's about acknowledging that just because you don't "get it", it doesn't mean it's "not worthy" or "crap"

Anytime a new musical style is introduced, there are people that say these same things. It happened with Jazz, it happened with rock, heck, it happened with Mozart.

With apologies for my over-use of quotes.

I'm not saying an entire gnere of music is crap or sucks. I'm saying that turntablism as a musical instrument is lacking. Goats expanded that to hip-hop and Miles Davis.

There are some aspects of hip-hop that I find OK.

If someone asked me if they should pursue turntablism as a musical outlet, I'm being honest and saying that it's not a worthy musical instrument. However, if it's your goal to hang out in clubs and get the ladies then maybe being the DJ and practicing turtablism would be your thing.

[johnfoss]

It happened with Jazz, it happened with rock, heck, it happened with Mozart.In the visual arts it happened with photography. It took a long time too, but eventually there was acceptance that you could make art with photography. This makes the photographer an artist of sorts, but not a painter.

I would think of turntablists as more along the lines of performance artists than musicians. But if a kazoo is a musical instrument, why can't a turntable be?

And don't bring money into the argument, that'll hurt. I'm sure it's easier to make money as a turntablist than as a classical musician. Tune up & down your radio dial. "Crap" is popular! Doesn't mean it's good music, but it sure makes some people a ton of money...

I say, to each his own. or, quoting from an interview with a punk rock artist in the 80s (insert Cockney accent), "Eyah, it's just a good noise, in'nit."

[agentQ]

What does that difference matter when neither are musicians?

The tools are the same for both: a turntable and a mixer. The mechanics are nearly the same... move the record, move the crossfader. One guy's just a bit twitchier than the other.


You are quite obviously still unclear on what turntableism actually is.

DJ:
Someone who plays and mixes songs for people to experience, usually live.

Turntablist:
Someone who creates there own sounds and notes buy manipulating old ones.

Turntablist can draw out scratches on music sheets, just like real musicians, it will involve a speed of the record and speed of cross fader, as well as how many times each will go back and forth or up and down.
Please check this (http://www.battlesounds.com/transcription/ttm.pdf) to see what it looks like written out in sheet form. This shows that one person can come up with a scratch and it can be repeated by someone else who has never heard it.

There is much much much more to this music then some of you ignorant, arrogant, hateful, scared, unwilling to open your minds and eyes snobs are seeing.

I am tired of some of the disrespectful bullshit you guys are saying.... WTF. Do you feel threatened by a new type of music? Just because some are willing to enjoy something new and you are not, does not give you the right to call it crap. As well as the fact that just because someone may be into turntablism, or be a turntablist themselves, does not mean they dont appreciate other types of music...... Looks to be that it is not the new generation that is being foolish here. Any turntablist will tell you we love music, all types. The fact the people naturally strive to create music is how a DJ will grow out of the mixing stage and decide they want to create and they do so respecting all types of music.

PLEASE, please do some research before you talk shit about something you dont know.

THERE IS HUGE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN A TYPICAL DJ AND A TURNTABLIST. to ask what is the difference is like saying what is the difference between a teacher and a writer. They both have pens and pencils, they both use reference books.

I take a lot of offense to what you are saying. As a turntablist, I think you should let go of your demeaning ideals, or at least not voice them in this thread.... there is no question mark in the title.

I will post some links to some interesting scratches and scratch culture.

[phlegm]

Where I'm picking nits with you is that you're presenting your opinions as fact.

I think the fundamental question is whether or not there are standards for music. John Childs seems to have the view that there are standards by which so called music can and should be judged. Others seem to be saying that what makes music good is entirely subjective, and that it's just a matter of changing one's perspective to "get" some kinds of so called music.

I still contend that arguing which view is right is somewhat pointless, unless you're a musicologist, I suppose. Most of us just want to enjoy the sounds.

[maestro8]

You are quite obviously still unclear on what turntableism actually is.
You are quite obviously still under the impression that a turntablist deserves any more respect than, say, someone who plays the kazoo.

Turntablist can draw out scratches on music sheets, just like real musicians
Hey, I can transcribe my burps and farts... maybe I should write a gastric opera! Do you think I can get as many groupies as those DJs?

ignorant, arrogant, hateful, scared, unwilling to open your minds and eyes snobs
Ah, it's our good old friend Ad Hominem... the perfect way to start and end every argument!

Just because some are willing to enjoy something new and you are not, does not give you the right to call it crap.
The Bill of Rights gives us the opportunity to say most anything we like.

Looks to be that it is not the new generation that is being foolish here.
...not until your posts came along.

PLEASE, please do some research before you talk shit about something you dont know.
Perhaps you should take your own advice. You obviously have no idea who you're talking to...

As a turntablist, I think you should let go of your demeaning ideals, or at least not voice them in this thread....
Of the few thoughts you've expressed in this thread, this is the most enlightened. Unfortunately, you've done too little, too late.

[agentQ]

You are quite obviously still under the impression that a turntablist deserves any more respect than, say, someone who plays the kazoo.
Both should be respected as someone choice and passion if thats what they are, and if that someone spent hours and hours of each day practicing and perfecting new techniques, I would give them much more respect than you are showing. Hell I bet with a sampler and a drum machine you could get pretty technical with a kazoo.

Hey, I can transcribe my burps and farts... maybe I should write a gastric opera! Do you think I can get as many groupies as those DJs?
No. I wouldnt listen to that for the same reason I would not want to listen to tapes of wales singing, I like nature in real life, or planet earth. However if you recorded that fart and burp and scratched it to the beat of a drummer friend, maybe with a keyboard player I bet you would have something there.



The Bill of Rights gives us the opportunity to say most anything we like.
Very true, express at will, although some respect would be nice. You sure can say whatever you want, tho class, and values should be something you consider and in these departments you have proved to be arrogant, and disrespectful.


Perhaps you should take your own advice. You obviously have no idea who you're talking to...
I see that you like to argue, and you seem to have an ego blocking new ideas. Not very healthy to show signs of a stubborn old man at your age. You are still under the impression that a turntablist is a DJ. Unicyclist use some of the same parts as bicyclist, does that mean we here are all bike riders because some people refuse to give one wheel a real chance?


Of the few thoughts you've expressed in this thread, this is the most enlightened. Unfortunately, you've done too little, too late.
I guess next time I will talk about myself from the start. pff.

[agentQ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqADXCDJFMg

Here is a video of 4 turntablist playing a song together, notice all the sounds are made by scratching, there is no dj style using two turntables, each member only used one table, and they each have a part in the song... like 4 different instruments....

some band stuff:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMbqMCNI-1s&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpBVLcaYczU&feature=related (there is a drum machine being played)

They are all clearly using the turntable as an instrument to make music not play a song by another artist.

[john_childs]

Is music by a turntabilist better or worse than Vogon poetry? Both required the practitioner to practice and perfect the art and skill. Surely they are both due respect for the effort.

As a live performance at a club I can appreciate a turntablist. As music material for me to listen to at home on a CD, well, that is where I differ.

[mscalisi]

It looks like one guy who filmed himself four times. Pretty cool though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqADXCDJFMg

Here is a video of 4 turntablist playing a song together, notice all the sounds are made by scratching, there is no dj style using two turntables, each member only used one table, and they each have a part in the song... like 4 different instruments....

some band stuff:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMbqMCNI-1s&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpBVLcaYczU&feature=related (there is a drum machine being played)

They are all clearly using the turntable as an instrument to make music not play a song by another artist.

[agentQ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4_Ue2lrwTQ&feature=related
Tons of great videos here.
C2C kills it in the 2005 video.

[agentQ]

It looks like one guy who filmed himself four times. Pretty cool though.

Q-bert does have people he jams with, tho that could be very likely something he would do.

[mscalisi]

after watching this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4_Ue2lrwTQ&feature=related

I'm having a harder time with my view that a turntable isn't a musical instrument, because there are moments when the line is crossed.

Basically, the way these guys are using them is as single-timbre samplers, except with less range but more direct control.

[agentQ]

after watching this video:

Thank you. And that is my point. I just want to add that you can easily see that learning to do that with a truntable takes lot and lots of practice like an instrument, and to play it correctly you have to feel the music. Where as most poeple see a turntable as something that will just play music for you.

[TrialsUni]

I've been reading through this thread at work today, and I drove home listening to DJ Qbert. My appreciation for hip hop has come back recently, after a hiatus of many years. So, there's no way in the world I would pass this opportunity up to comment on the sound of hip hop that made me (coming from a drumming background) fall in love with it in the first place: the scratch.

Lately I've gotten into Qbert, Kid Koala, and DJ's like rjd2, and DJ Shadow.

I know for one that Qbert has a deep respect and admiration for jazz music. I've watched him playing old videos of Artie Shaw soloing and commented that he wanted to recreate that with a turntable. Listening to Qbert's music, I do pick up on jazz phrasing in the scratches he uses. His sense of timing and rhythm is impeccable. You can tell that he is a man who loves music in general and loves the manipulation and creation of sounds and new sounds. He's also one of the very best, if not, the most skillful turntablist out there. He has invented many different scratches. For those of you that don't know there are a TON of different types of scratching. And he uses dynamics too. Not only do him and many other dj's use the obvious cross fader, but they also manipulate the volume faders as well. I've heard Q create echo-like effects with the volume fader taking a tone down to the pianissimo level all the while, for example. I hold a lot of respect for people like him.

I come from a musical background. I was raised on 50s, 60s, and 70s rock and roll hits, and imbued with the appreciation of Roger's and Hammerstein's films, from Mozart to Glenn Miller, to The Kingsmen and the Beatles. I took piano lessons, then drum lessons years later, and now I've taught myself to play the guitar.

All that turntablist's are doing is envisioning something that exists in a different way. That's all ANY artist has done over the centuries, basically. It's frustrating reading people's criticisms that turntablism isn't music. That's a tired argument that's been hammered on music and art,like the avant-garde since its inception. What is music? Music's roots lie in the imitation of nature, of the sounds of the world going on around us. There NEVER have been any rules for music. Yes, conventions and conceptions even preconceptions have been drawn throughout the ages. To me, it seems that most of the best music is that which has broken these invisible social barriers.

Tuntablism won't last, you say? Hip hop culture has been around for nearly 30 years! And before that, rapping existed in many forms decades before Sugarhill Gang cut their infamous "Rapper's Delight" which kicked off the movement in the first place. Critics said that rock-and-roll wouldn't last. (After all it's another euphemism for sex). It was evil, destroying culture. It was barbaric, and overtly sexual. It incited juvenile delinquency. These are some of the tired, trite arguments from that music's birth. The thought was that rock-and-roll should be abolished, and it was of no lasting importance, it was merely bringing culture down. Over 50 years later, and it's still around. People said that about ragtime as well. They slammed it for being too 'black' for being trite and cheap and plain out dirty. They said that it had no artistic merit. It's now considered great music.

I still don't fully understand people's complaints about sampling. Your holiest-of-holies Beatles and Zeppelin were samplers. I like both bands but I am aware of each's sampling. Zeppelin took many vocal lines and guitar riffs from other songs, notably blues songs. They've been sued for it. The instrumental piece by 60s West Coast band Spirit called "Taurus" sounds remarkably close to the intro to Zep's "Stairway to Heaven," which came out years after the instrumental piece. "Lemon Song" is basically a reworking of two blues songs, and the one I can pull from the top of my head is "Killing Floor" as played by Howlin' Wolf and written by Willie Dixon. "Dazed and Confused" the band knicked when guitarist Jimmy Page was still in the Yardbirds. It comes from a song of the same name by Jake Holmes and is about dealing with alcohol addiction. There are many more examples. And yet, Led Zeppelin are revered by fans and critics alike as being quintessentially an ultimate rock band to be held high up on a pedestal.

And the Beatles, whom critics can't help measure other rock bands past and present up to--considered to be the best rock and roll act and most original and ahead of its time band in the history of rock and roll sampled too. I can't stand to recall how many "man music just hasn't been the same since the 60s" comments I've seen in my life. It's pure mythology. Most of the music of the 60s was experimental because it was something people were doing then and there, for the now. There was no intention of lasting significance to much of those aspects of it. Moving on, the Beatles took Beethoven's 'Moonlight Sonata' and played it backwards and went to record it as 'Because' off their Abby Road LP. In '66 the Beatles commented that they wanted to go to Memphis to record, home to the influential Stax/Volt record company, because they were extremely fond of guitarist Steve Cropper's (from Booker T. and the M.G.'s) work on many great soul and R&B recordings. Cropper's tone is all over their guitar playing, and so is much of that 'Stax sound'. Tin Pan Ally and Music Hall traditions bear a heavy influence in their music. The string arrangements of their songs fall back to that late 50s Phil Spector mono-aural era. The name Beatles is derived in part by Buddy Holly and the Crickets, and their songs are greatly influenced by Holly, Roy Orbison, and people like Ray Charles, and others like the obvious Chuck Berry and the writers behind the sound of Elvis. John Lennon copped a Bob Dylan feel (also a sampler, yet fans and critics will hold him as an originator) in his mid-60s lyric writing.

So, what I mean is NONE of the groups you all hold so dear are as original as we'd all like to feel they are. All of those 60's groups we tend to hold at the Godhead of Rock and Rock and all that is True Music weren't all that original. Some were inspired, some borrowed, and some flat out shamelessly stole from lesser known or older artists. People have been sampling since before jazz. With jazz there's contrafact. Do you know how many songs have been written based on Gershwin's "I got Rhythm"? Over 100 songs have been built from, or based on the harmonic structure of that Gershwin tune. GET OVER IT.

Turntablists, and hip hop dj's and producers have deepened my interest in many other forms of music. Looking up the samples used on different hip hop tracks has drawn me to the world of soul, funk and early R&B. It seems that producers/DJ's such as Dan the Automator, DJ Shadow, RJD2, EL-P as well as mash-up DJ Girl Talk, for example, are all extremely knowledgeable and appreciative of a huge array of music old and new.

It's not music, it's just plucking wires. Comparing a turntable to a guitar isn't that far off. All of the songs I could ever make are right there on that guitar i just have to realize them and turn them into a song, which basically means give them a form, setting sounds into space and time. The sounds of each note and chord are already there in that guitar without me having to touch it. All I'm doing is playing what's already there on that guitar. If I chose to played the G major barre chord, that's just one choice of 11 others of that same major chord shape. Pretty much every song that I could ever come up with has been done, but I may be able to put a new spin on an idea that I've had. I probably do show the influences of other artists whether I like it not. It doesn't matter if you listen to music or not, you're going to sound like someone else. Basically in the creation of music I am manipulating an instrument with all of these strings and sets of tones already on it, in the fashion that I choose dictated by my emotions, technical knowledge, and physical ability. The culture of hip hop has opened huge doors for what's sonically possible in the creation and manipulation of sound.

A DJ, or a turntablist can create the sounds he uses to scratch. He can create them, he can use 'ready-made ones' (ready made art and found art have been around for over 80 years) and assemble them how he chooses. It's really no different than a musician like John Lennon, or a producer like George Martin. DJ/Turntablist RJD2, for example, can also play and does play other musical instruments besides the turntable.

[agentQ]

I just saw Rjd2 a couple of weeks ago. Great show, first time ive seen a whole band perform the Zelda song... they did mario and others through out the night, the show was pretty nintendo themed.

[john_childs]

It's not music, it's just plucking wires. Comparing a turntable to a guitar isn't that far off.
You can't compare a turntable to a guitar. A guitar properly played can make you cry, it can make you dance, it can give you chills down your spine, it can make you bang your head, it can make you fall in love. A guitar has so much emotional potential in the way it can be played. There is no way to compare a turntable, no matter how well played, to a guitar.

A turntable is more or less a rhythm section. It's not a lead. It doesn't have the range of emotional potential. It's just a different style of rhythm section.

The turntable has a similar problem as synthesizers. There is a reason that synths can't front a rock and roll band. They tried in the 80s and it doesn't work. A synth has an amazing array of sounds but it doesn't have the emotional element. You can't make it sing. As a lead instrument in a band it falls flat. So synths get used for backing and rhythm.

[Goats_On_Unicycles]

A turntable is more or less a rhythm section. It's not a lead. It doesn't have the range of emotional potential. It's just a different style of rhythm section.
For you that might be true...

dosn't make it true for everyone else.

[phlegm]

There is a reason that synths can't front a rock and roll band. They tried in the 80s and it doesn't work. A synth has an amazing array of sounds but it doesn't have the emotional element. You can't make it sing. As a lead instrument in a band it falls flat. So synths get used for backing and rhythm.

Then what are keytars for, and how did a synth rock band make it in Guitar Hero? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0X9PlA8Uob8) :p

[Goats_On_Unicycles]

Oh and John, just for your informaton, synths have come a long way (as you know) but they know have touch sensitivity and sampled sounds so they don't sound so crappy. I played a GEM keyboard at a show not too long ago and it was hard to tell the difference between it and a real piano.
I still like pianos more tho...

[JohnnyReggae]

I have to agree with John and Maestro8 on this point. I don't believe turntabelism is music, just my opinion. A performance... yes, skillfull .... yes, music in the sense of a musical artist .... no.

after watching this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4_Ue2lrwTQ&feature=related

I'm having a harder time with my view that a turntable isn't a musical instrument, because there are moments when the line is crossed.

Although I appreciate the performance in this video, I was bored half way through already and had to close it. I like Trip-Hop which utilises many of the techniques shown in the video to produce additional sounds within the music, however as a source on it's own I don't believe that it would be entertaining past a performance.

Clearly my opinion differs from the likes of GoU and agentQ but that is the beauty of having your own opinion.

[TrialsUni]

You can't compare a turntable to a guitar. A guitar properly played can make you cry, it can make you dance, it can give you chills down your spine, it can make you bang your head, it can make you fall in love. A guitar has so much emotional potential in the way it can be played. There is no way to compare a turntable, no matter how well played, to a guitar.

I see where you're coming from. But, I think besides the instrument what creates those emotions in a person is the music itself. I think that this Rachmaninoff piece does on piano, for me, what you're describing of the guitar: http://youtube.com/watch?v=VXU7I_Yyi2Y

There are good keys/synth driven bands. Look at electronic music. I think that B. Fleischmann, for example, does some wonderful stuff with those kinds of instruments. Blonde Redhead is one of my favorite bands, and their latest releases are all very synth/keys driven. Their music can make my hair stand on end. It's morose, ghostly, haunting. A succulent mix between Serge Gainsbourg and Radiohead with a dash of classical composition.

It's not about what kind of instrument it's played on, for me, it's about how the music is constructed, the overall sound. The overall sound will basically determine what gets soloed on guitar to make your hair stand on end, or make you cry, or fall in love.

Two of my favorite guitarists usually didn't play their guitar in a conventional or proper sense: Roger "Syd" Barrett, and Kevin Shields. Both Syd and Kevin took the possibilities of guitar sounds out a step farther than their respective peers. They showed that the guitar was more than just a chord or solo instrument, but it was also a noise machine. By extending the techniques of blues and surf rock, Syd took his slide and an echo machine and created some spacey psychedelic noises and instrumentation in the early live sets (on bootleg) and recordings of his band The Pink Floyd. Kevin extended the techniques of using the whammy/tremolo bar in surf music as well, and he created otherworldly textures and an androgynous sound. I think his band, My Bloody Valentine were phenomenal, and were so ahead of their time in 91 when they released Loveless which combined elements of hip hop, electronic music and rock very tastefully while pushing the limits and defying genre-casting.

Those two artists made me fall in love with the guitar, and they don't play any 'solos' in the 'real' sense of the word at all.

[mscalisi]

This has been true for 20 years. Of course, early keyboards that used samples had very limited memory compared to what's available now. (more memory = more samples = more realistic sounds)

Of course you like real pianos more. Real instruments will always sound better than something that has to be amplified and run through a speaker.

Electronic drums have also made leaps and bounds, but if you've ever been walking down the street and heard a drum kit, you could always tell if it was real.

For me, comparing instruments and trying to say that this one is better than the other is lame. If a turntable could do what I guitar does, you wouldn't need a guitar and vice versa. Each instrument has unique sounds it can make. Each instrumentalist provides a unique voice. One compare them is to imply that you should pick one and disregard the others.

A skillful guitarist can certainly evoke strong emotion, but a skillful violinist can transcend space and time. A turntable is fun, creative, and is good at making music to dance to. The snap of an acoustic snaredrum has more punch than anything I can think of. A distorted Open-G chord makes people want to jump up and down.

I want it all.



...they know have touch sensitivity and sampled sounds so they don't sound so crappy. ...I still like pianos more tho...

[harper]

I find the whole idea of eating turntables repugnant.

[ntappin]

Although I still consider a DJ to be a musician (although sometimes they can be very very poor ones) I really liked the argument of the tie between the user and the volume controls.

For most musical instruments you aren't working with a fixed volume, so its tied much more to emotion that way, and I can certainly see how that would rule out DJ's but I think that there are more ways than just hat to get the emotion across.