Stepping on the American flag

[sockmonster]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,351624,00.html

What do you guys think?

Basically, a student put hundreds of american flags on the floor in the hallway of the student center to see how many people would step on the flags, and how many would walk around. The american legion is furious, and the campus is sharply divided between those who shout "desecration!" and those who shout "Freedom of speech!"

[peleschramm]

OMG! I hate it when people take things like this so seriously! Honestly now, what's going to happen if you step on an american flag :rolleyes: . If you burn a flag, what have you burnt, a piece of fabric, or a country? In my eyes all you've done is burn a piece of fabric.

[sockmonster]

I'll agree to that. The flag represents all the ideals America wants to promote- freedom, hope, independance. But metonymy aside, a flag is a piece of cloth.

[_Ground_Zero_]

Like Pele said, it's just a piece of fabric that won't do anything if it's damaged. Luckily it's not illegal because that would just be another right stripped away from us...

[forrestunifreak]

OMG! I hate it when people take things like this so seriously! Honestly now, what's going to happen if you step on an american flag :rolleyes: . If you burn a flag, what have you burnt, a piece of fabric, or a country? In my eyes all you've done is burn a piece of fabric.

It's the thought that counts. :rolleyes:

[captainkrunk61]

Supreme Court case: Texas vs. Johnson. Defaming of the flag is protected under freedom of speech.

web page for those who want to check me: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_v._Johnson

[UniBrier]

those who shout "desecration!" and those who shout "Freedom of speech!"It's both, the student exercised freedom of speech by performing a desecration.

If you think flags are just a piece of cloth please do try this at the next Unicon: Put flags from all the countries represented on out on a dirt lot and you go ride your unicycle over them. See if that pisses any one off. If you're right that they're just pieces of cloth, no one will mind. If you're not right, you're sure to leave an indellible impression...

[1-wheeled-grape]

oh my god that is pathetic! its a piece of cloth, not america itself, and you all walk on america evryday(because you cannot fly lol). it would of been a hell of a laugh to run down the hall, jump on the flag and skid down the hall, just to see what people do:D i would do that with the british flag, they slide well :D id ride on it too, i dont care, it isnt like in sending a missile to downing street or the houses of parlament is it!

if you did the same thing here people would ignore it and just keep walking over them, why is america so worried about standing on a piece of cloth?

[peleschramm]

It's both, the student exercised freedom of speech by performing a desecration.

If you think flags are just a piece of cloth please do try this at the next Unicon: Put flags from all the countries represented on out on a dirt lot and you go ride your unicycle over them. See if that pisses any one off. If you're right that they're just pieces of cloth, no one will mind. If you're not right, you're sure to leave an indellible impression...
Im sure people would mind. My point was not that people dont mind, but that they shouldnt. If i was asked to, i wouldnt mind burning any flag. Its not that im an evil person, its more of being a realist. The only thing a flag serves purpose for is to act as a symbol to show what nationality something is of. What i mean is how say youtube.ca has a little canadian flag at the top right. Excellent use of a flag. Soon as it gets to doing the morning routine of pledging allegiance to a flag it starts getting way out of hand. Think about it, you are pledging allegiance to a completely inanimate object. Its completely silly. I have not said the pledge of allegiance for over 2 years now, simply because i find there to be no reason in pledging my allegiance to a piece of fabric dangling from a pole.

[thejdw]

if you did the same thing here people would ignore it and just keep walking over them, why is america so worried about standing on a piece of cloth?
Well by reading some of those quotes, many people died for that flag. Now I can understand dieing for a country, but for a peice of fabric? Thats just suicide. :rolleyes:

[1-wheeled-grape]

Well by reading some of those quotes, many people died for that flag. Now I can understand dieing for a country, but for a peice of fabric? Thats just suicide. :rolleyes:
i always said suicide was pointless, and did they die for THAT flag, no that was probably from her local shop a couple weeks ago, they died for the country they live in, yet they walk on that. a flag only shows the nationality on the land it represents, like a lable on a product to tell you what it is. a flag is a piece of cloth, its a label to say "this is america".

[kington99]

It's both, the student exercised freedom of speech by performing a desecration.

If you think flags are just a piece of cloth please do try this at the next Unicon: Put flags from all the countries represented on out on a dirt lot and you go ride your unicycle over them. See if that pisses any one off. If you're right that they're just pieces of cloth, no one will mind. If you're not right, you're sure to leave an indellible impression...


America is, as far as I've ever seen, the only country that is terribly fussed about its flag. Personally I couldn't give a damn if you rode over the union flag. There's a reason you never see the union flag being burnt, because people would just laugh at you for wasting your money. The stunt you're hypothetically suggesting pulling would offend me, because I knew it was your intention to, but the actual act itself I couldn't care less. The majority of Britain's don't know that the union Jack is the flagstaff, and the union flag is the actual flag. The union flag has a right way up but virtually no-one knows which way it is (it's only a minor difference). That is quite how little we care.

[1-wheeled-grape]

America is, as far as I've ever seen, the only country that is terribly fussed about its flag. Personally I couldn't give a damn if you rode over the union flag. There's a reason you never see the union flag being burnt, because people would just laugh at you for wasting your money. The stunt you're hypothetically suggesting pulling would offend me, because I knew it was your intention to, but the actual act itself I couldn't care less. The majority of Britain's don't know that the union Jack is the flagstaff, and the union flag is the actual flag. The union flag has a right way up but virtually no-one knows which way it is (it's only a minor difference). That is quite how little we care.
yeah that pretty much sums up my point, america is the only county (to my knowlege) that actually cares about their flag, its like they worship it and i think its quite stupid really. now correct me if im wrong but was it in the news here in the uk about everyone putting the union flag up outside our homes like the americands do? and theyve also said about pledging allience here too, but i dont think its to the flag, more to the country.

[ivan]

The settlers and the people who fought for independance didn't die for the flag. They died for their dream of freedom. That's why they wrote the constitution, to allow freedom for everyone.

Now, America is being abused by multimilion corporations and crooked politicians and the constitution is being used to their advantage too often. They move the people away from that dream of freedom that the settlers and the founding fathers had. I think that's why some people choose to burn the flag.

[Mikefule]

It would be interesting to know how many of the people getting upset about people stepping on the flag thought that "the Muslims" were being irrational heathen savages when they got very upset about the Mohammed cartoons a couple of years ago.

[kington99]

of course we're forgetting the solemn and noble English worship of the St. George flag, whenever the football's on.

[wobbling bear]

after years and years of witnessing flag-burnings for every cause you can dream of. I am surprised some businessman didn't came with the idea of providing flags for that very purpose! :p
"our flags burn longer!"
"may not harm our customer"!
"burns without danger to the environment" .... :D

you could even have a "patriot" american businessman providing "false" true flags : the american flag is so complex that you can counterfeit it with a non standard number of stripes or stars!!! -and "customers" would not notice!-

Oops: I forgot to mention the already existing business of having toilet paper emblasoned with a flag!

[peleschramm]

oh my god that is pathetic! its a piece of cloth, not america itself, and you all walk on america evryday(because you cannot fly lol). it would of been a hell of a laugh to run down the hall, jump on the flag and skid down the hall, just to see what people do:D i would do that with the british flag, they slide well :D id ride on it too, i dont care, it isnt like in sending a missile to downing street or the houses of parlament is it!

if you did the same thing here people would ignore it and just keep walking over them, why is america so worried about standing on a piece of cloth?
Just to see what people do? Just to see what people do? Man, here if you did that you would get a redneck fist in your face faster than you can say "i pledge allegiance, to the flag", and that's if your lucky. And if you sued them, you would probably loes. Man, people can be so dunce sometimes!

[Goats_On_Unicycles]

Oops: I forgot to mention the already existing business of having toilet paper emblasoned with a flag!
haha, that's crazy cool!

I think people get a little too upset about flag stepping-onage and burnage. I can see where a vetran might take it the wrong way but in my opinion, a burning flag, is a symbol of America not living up to the ideals that it pretends to support.

Land of the rich straight white christian men?

[Hazmat]

:D Well i found this one on Google. :D

[Gilby]

Do whatever you want with that red, white, and blue flag, but don't mess with the original flag of America.

[thejdw]

of course we're forgetting the solemn and noble English worship of the St. George flag, whenever the football's on.
What, attaching them to car windows were they get shredded to peices by the wind/ fall off?
http://www.comparestoreprices.co.uk/images/en/england-car-flag-.jpg

[monkeyman]

It doesn't really matter what you or I personally think about flag desecration. It's protected under free speech.

These (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NymRecFWgAs)guys say it infinitely better than I could

[Into the blue]

"Did you go to law school?"
"No, clown school."

Loved it.

[ntappin]

I think its pretty funny, but its not like she forced people to walk over them. There was a path to get through, so I think its fine. Plus whoever steps on them, its their fault.

[Nimbusnut]

Like anything, it's a matter of perspective. Forgive me for rambling, but when I went through Basic Training, we were put through hell by a bunch of DS's that were mostly Vietnam Vet Army Rangers. This was back when trainees could still be beaten on here and there and several were sent to the hospital. Anyhoo, we had the general impression that they hated us and thought we were crap, but most of us survived. There was a really bad training accident that I don't want to talk about.

When we finished, before graduation, they sat us down in an auditorium and we we watched a film that went over all the death and destruction that soldiers faced on the battle fields throughout our history and it ended with a montage of military cemeteries while the Lee Greenwood song, God Bless the USA played. It was a really heavy thing. Following that, all our Drill Sergeants came up to us and shook our hands. telling us how proud they were of us.

My perspective I suppose as well as those who served is that symbols are important, because when you put yourself in harms way and are willing to take orders that may very well cause your death, you stop being an individual and are a part of something bigger: Accomplishing the mission is the only important thing. It's what allows a person to throw his or her body on a grenade to save one's fellow soldier, to charge a bunker, to jump out of an airplane or fast rope into a hot LZ.

The flag may just be a piece of cloth to many, but to others it's a symbol worth dying for. Sure many people are down on the US for being in the Middle East currently, but look back on WW I and WW II, the Revolutionary War, or any other "popular war". Can any of us imagine what it would take to jump off a landing craft on Omaha Beach, or fight in any of the numerus bloody battles in the Pacific? Take a good look at our senior citizens BTW, they walked through fire that many can never comprehend. Running bombing missions over Nazi Germany even though they knew they wouldn't come back. My God, people, get a clue and try to understand the suffering of our Marines, Soldiers, Airmen, and Sailors throughout time.

As far as the guys and women on the ground, you may not realize it, but the individual fights for his or her squad, the squad fights for the platoon, the platoon fights for the battery or company.... on and on up the chain. And when the politicians through theirs troops into a war, sometimes all the troops have to hang on to is an ideal or a symbol because when they or we do something that doesn't make sense, one has to have something to hang onto to make sense out of chaos, and that may be as simple as a flag.

You may not agree with what the politicians do, but at least think about how f#@ked up the people actually doing their bidding get in the process, and how many friends they've lost. I'm not going to make any moral judgments regarding the theory behind the current state of affairs in Iraq, but when people trash the flag, a very powerful symbol to many, you are causing great harm to many vets who put their asses on the line because they (we) thought it was the right thing to do.

Thank you to all our leaders who treat the people on the ground like they are disposable, and thank you to all you citizens who do the same by treating our symbol like it's meaningless. To quote a friend of mine who's a retired Colonial, "There are two Countrys: The Country that people that never served belong to, and the Country WE belong to."

[BluntRM]

http://images.ucomics.com/comics/db/2008/db080413.gif .

[unibikeling]

Weather your disagree with excercising your rights like that or not, 'it (freedom of speech) has to be for everyone, or it will be for no one'

Its like nazi's marching in skokie or wherever. I dont like what they stand for, the racism, or anything like that, but they have full right to do what they did. It's like, lets create a symbol that masks the hatred of George W Bush. Thats freedom of speech, a symbol. We could put this symbol everywhere.

Its freedom of speech. Our rights, what the united states stands for, and everything else is in words, ideas, and thoughts. Its not a peice of paper, a flag, or anything else.

People over react these days...

-Graham

[Mikefule]

Nimbusnut, that was eloquent and written with passion.

My only point of disagreement is the mixing up of the symbol with the thing that it symbolises.

America (or Britain) would claim to stand for democracy, equality, freedom, fairness, freedom of speech, freedom of (and from) religion, and so on. Those are ideals worth making huge sacrifices for.

In the world's eyes, America and Britain also stand for imperialism, cultural elitism, economic explotiation of the third world, disproportionate consumption, and various other bad things.

The US flag flag stands for America; the Union Jack stands for Britain.

So one man spits on the symbol of imperialsim, cultural elitism and economic exploitation of the third world, and the other man is offended because he has seen someone desecrate his symbol of democracy, equality and freedom.

I hope no one fights for a flag. I hope they fight for the good ideals that they believe the flag stands for.

[Mikefule]

A symbol to fight for... :cool:

[wobbling bear]

Nimbusnut, that was eloquent and written with passion.

My only point of disagreement is the mixing up of the symbol with the thing that it symbolises.


I (slightly) disagree with you Mikefule.

Since it is important for some people (that _really_ have an emotional bond with this) as gentlemen we could agree not to tread on their emotions.

So if this is not a "first level" sacred symbol to us, we should not "desecrate it" when dealing with others .. it's logical. otherwise we would, on purpose, hurt the feelings of others we don't want to hurt ... for sure, as usual, there are limits to this reasoning ....
(for instance a singer in France sung the "Marseillaise" on a reggae rythm: people were offended .. and I failed to understand this (btw there is a big difference between our national anthem "as is" and the actual words in it -that smell of xenophobia-))

[Mikefule]

I (slightly) disagree with you Mikefule.

Since it is important for some people (that _really_ have an emotional bond with this) as gentlemen we could agree not to tread on their emotions.



No need to "qualify" your disagreement with me. Without disagreement there is no debate.:)

I agree that if you love your symbol, and if I don't have any particular regard for it, I should not "desecrate" it - because that would be gratuitously offending you. It would be the equivalent of shouting abuse at you in the street for no reason: it wouldn't hurt you, but it would be gratuitously offensive.

In a free country, my right to put my fist where I want ends where your right to put your nose where you want begins.

But what if the very same things that you interpret as "good", I interpret as "wrong"? (I'm not saying that I do; this is hypothetical.)

So you might think for example that one of the great things about America is its role as a world power, "policing the free world and bringing the torch of democracy to the darkest corners." I might interpret exactly the same situation as "America being a neocolonial power, flexing its military muscles and imposing its parochial world view on cultures which have a different but equally valid heritage."

Or the English Prime Minister might see the Union Jack as standing for the land where women are free of male oppression and of the obligation to wear the burka. A sincere and decent Muslim might notice that the UK's white population has the highest rate of teenage pregnancy in Europe, high rates of STDs, and a million teenage mothers who are living on state benefits with no support from the fathers of their children - and he would not want the British Army to force those "western values" onto his own country.

In these circumstances, the same symbol represents the same actions and attitudes, but with a diametrically opposed interpretation being placed on the actions, attitudes and on the symbol itself.

And in that situation, if it is legitimate for one side to wave their flag in celebration, is it not equally right for the other side to burn it in protest? I would rather that my flag was burned in protest than that my countrymen were bombed in protest.

[forrestunifreak]

after years and years of witnessing flag-burnings for every cause you can dream of. I am surprised some businessman didn't came with the idea of providing flags for that very purpose! :p
"our flags burn longer!"
"may not harm our customer"!
"burns without danger to the environment" .... :D


:p

[johnfoss]

To answer the question from the UK about why Americans are so nuts about their flag, I think it's a culture/tradition thing. There is a highly developed system of "flag etiquette" associated with how you're supposed to handle, fold and display an American flag that is to be displayed. It's not supposed to touch the floor/ground, for instance (if it does it is to be burned, as I understand it). So there is a tendency for people, especially those who have served in the armed forces, to extend this flag etiquette to every depiction of the American flag they see.

This is, to me, where the problem arises. If I display a flag on a pole, at a sporting event for instance, where everyone faces the flag as the National Anthem is sung, then later set it on fire or have the athletes play on top of it, that sends a very different message (to me) than doing the same with a different, purpose-bought flag that was not used as the "official" flag in the room.

In other words, this flag over here is an official "display" one. We run it up the flagpole every morning, and practice the traditional flag discipline with it. I believe this flag should be treated more "seriously" than one that is flown off a car window, or printed on a beach towel, or bought for a college project.

Notice the project described at the top of the thread was an *art* project. Sometimes the purpose of art is to garner reactions from the viewers. In this case I'd say it was an art/sociology project. The "artist" was studying the reactions of people in the room/hall and noting percentages of who stepped on them. She said less than five percent stepped on the flags.

This is not a scientific test though. A piece of cloth "stuck" to the floor could be dangerous to walk on because it might slip out from under you. Some of the people who went around the flags may have done so for this reason. What if she had painted them on the floor? Two questions: Would they be easier to walk on then? And would they still be considered "flags"?

From the article:
"Bennett said he was irritated that the school permitted the project at all. He planned a protest for Thursday afternoon.
"It's a patriotic feeling that I have," he said. "That's what I fought for — for our freedoms — so they could do things, but don't do it with the American flag."

-- So he fought for freedoms, but not any old freedoms. What else shouldn't be allowed? Does he have a list? In any case, he has the right to protest and I support him in that, though I don't agree with his idea of protesting.

"The project was supposed to stay up for 24 hours, but the flags were removed 10 hours into the experiment after a fire marshal asked Crane to move them to the side of the hallway, the Daily Bulldog said."

-- The above wasn't explained, but I have a feeling the flags were moved due to safety reasons. Either the hazard of slipping on one, or the blockage of the passage that was being caused by a restricted walkway, combined with probably a lot of people standing around to watch how others passed through.

I have a beach towel with an American flag printed on it. I have no qualms about dropping it in the sand. That's what it's for. It is a towel, after all. The flags used in the art project were made to be flags however. Probably cheapies, but still they weren't handkerchiefs or placemats. Should they be treated differently? Certainly none of them were one of the flags that soldiers fought and died for. *Those* flags, such as the ones carried in actual battles, should be treated with the respect of their surrounding conditions (military tradition). These flags from the local Walgreens are copies. Use all you want, they'll make more. Probably in China.

I have (or used to have) an American flag that was flown over the U.S. Capitol building. I'll skip over why I have it as it's unrelated, but suffice it to say I'd never use that flag in an "art experiment" or to help get a fire going. That flag has some history to it.

[brendon557]

sure its just a peice of cloth but its wat the cloth represents

[JJtheunicycle]

sure its just a peice of cloth but its wat the cloth represents
Oh man, that is a good point! I think I have read that somewhere else though. Maybe in every single post in this thread that is on your side? You should read the thread before posting so you dont seem like an idiot. Or you can at least try.

[sockmonster]

You should read the thread before posting so you dont seem like an idiot. Or you can at least try.


I was really hoping we could avoid calling each other idiots for a while longer.

The flags, at least the large ones, were made of what appeared to be duct tape, and the smaller ones were those cheapies that they staple to barbeque skewers around July 4th.

I'm pretty sure I understand the opposing viewpoint, made in the article by Mr. Bennett. He says freedom is great, but leave th flag alone, essentially. As I've told lots of people on campus, I'm a proud patriotic American, I just value the freedoms the flag represents more than the flag itself.

[Goats_On_Unicycles]

sure its just a peice of cloth but its wat the cloth represents
it represents a whole lot of shit.
To a vet it represents the country that they served.
To me, it's an asshole country that dosn't legalize marriage.

[peleschramm]

it represents a whole lot of shit.
To a vet it represents the country that they served.
To me, it's an asshole country that dosn't legalize marriage.
Haha! Good stuff...

[sockmonster]

To me, it's an asshole country that dosn't legalize marriage.

Marriage is legal, so long as you can rightly put a bride and a groom [both of which must be human] on top of the cake.

And hey, if you don't like this country, make it better.

[Gilby]

Marriage is legal, so long as you can rightly put a bride and a groom [both of which must be human] on top of the cake.

And hey, if you don't like this country, make it better.
Marriage is simply a contract, as far as "law" goes, legally created after the civil war to allow white people to marry black people. Marriage is really not a "state" issue, is it? Can't a person choose to join up with another person for life, under whatever contract they choose? Why does any government need to be involved?

[BillyTheMountain]

Marriage is simply a contract, as far as "law" goes, legally created after the civil war to allow white people to marry black people.

Civil War? You're joking, right?

you know many US states continued to outlaw interracial marriage through the 1950s and beyond.

[Gilby]

Civil War? You're joking, right?

No joke. That is when it became a federal issue. Under the fourteenth amendment.

you know many US states continued to outlaw interracial marriage through the 1950s and beyond.

Possibly, those states that did not fall under the 14th amendment?

[sockmonster]

Marriage is a weird one, because it is essentially a religious issue. However, if the state provides any sort of benefit or penalty, it must define marriage in non-religious terms.

[Goats_On_Unicycles]

I'm doing my best to make the country better, but I still hate it and what it does to the world.
But there's hope for it.

[peleschramm]

I'm doing my best to make the country better, but I still hate it and what it does to the world.
But there's hope for it.
Same here... but hate may be to strong a word for me. Extremely overrated would be better. I would only use hate if I thought it was the worst country in the world... It's not all that bad, but its far from the best (which is what people boast around here).

[Goats_On_Unicycles]

hate is a strong word... but I do think I hate America.
I don't have more respect for it just because other places are worse.

[peleschramm]

Eh, yeah, I guess your right. I guess I do hate America too. There are much worse places though... but that is no excuse for what this country is doing...

[kington99]

Eh, yeah, I guess your right. I guess I do hate America too. There are much worse places though... but that is no excuse for what this country is doing...


I'd be interested to see which countries you consider worse, and by which criteria. By over-consumption you're number 1, by pollution number 2 apparently, but of course most things aren't as easily quantifiable.

[Mikefule]

There are plenty of places worse than America. China, where they execute several thousand people a year; Zimbabwe, where the president refuses to acknowledge the will of the people, and the police are intimidating and beating the government's opponents; Saudi, where women are forbidden to drive; parts of Africa where 50% of the population is HIV positive; other parts where people are starving; Russia, where the gangsters have taken over where the Communist Party left off; Romania, where gypsies are beaten and marginalised by members of mainstream society, yet deprived of the opportunity to live their own traditional lifestyle.

And saying "I hate America" for a person from America, or from any other open western society, is like a sulky teenager telling a parent or step parent that they hate them.

America is deeply flawed as a society, and is a major problem on the world stage, but on balance, it is far more a Good Thing than a Bad Thing.

[Triball]

stepping on the crowtch of youre americaine president

[peleschramm]

There are plenty of places worse than America. China, where they execute several thousand people a year; Zimbabwe, where the president refuses to acknowledge the will of the people, and the police are intimidating and beating the government's opponents; Saudi, where women are forbidden to drive; parts of Africa where 50% of the population is HIV positive; other parts where people are starving; Russia, where the gangsters have taken over where the Communist Party left off; Romania, where gypsies are beaten and marginalised by members of mainstream society, yet deprived of the opportunity to live their own traditional lifestyle.

And saying "I hate America" for a person from America, or from any other open western society, is like a sulky teenager telling a parent or step parent that they hate them.

America is deeply flawed as a society, and is a major problem on the world stage, but on balance, it is far more a Good Thing than a Bad Thing.
I agree with you in almost every way. I admit that the majority of countries are much worse. The problem is, the standards are to low. So we may be in the upper 60th percentile in good countriness, but in reality, even being in the 98th percentile is pushing it. You see, all countries are far far from perfect, and even the best country ir ever so slightly too far from perfect.

[sarah.miller]

What, attaching them to car windows were they get shredded to peices by the wind/ fall off?


yep- its primative form of sacrificial offering.

[Unicaw89]

Lol if you want to get technical you are not even supposed to let the flag touch the ground....The student desecrated them far before anyone walked on them...

[feel the light]

Some people really love symbols of the things they love. There is a bit of magic in a copy of the Koran. Or in a Gideon's bible. It is magic to me because others feel this love, and I don't. It's wise to respect this I suppose, cause I don't want to hassle with those people. Seriously, like walking upstream.:(

In the USA , there is a percent (28 % BS) of people that extend a sense of feelings to flags. Also sports teams and Apple computers. You can't actually converse with these people, only disagree, or try to agree, but have to listen to to much crappy drivel.

So it's wrong to burn the USA flag in public without expecting a drunk idiot to try to beat your ass. Why ? , well, because I told you already it would happen. You should know by now. The police have better things to do then to try to protect your fool ass.

On a deeper level, taunting the feelings of PTSD victims in public to the point where they relapse into violence may not just soon be seen as politically incorrect, you won't have health care LOL.

I don't want to advocate violence. You can wipe your ass with any cloth or book page on earth and I bet God will be to bored to take notes. I know I don't care, and it is your legal right to burn your own flag. Personally I don't care about paper and cloth.

But I see public displays of "crapping on the stripes", as emotionally changing many Americans for the worst. I am not really affected by this. I wish a lot of USA policies were different. I don't want flag burning outlawed.

But it's a dream. A silly one. Maybe an insane one. But that some day this great feeling, that we are a good nation and have a great future together doing cool things, is reality. And some people perceive the flag as the living embodiment of this feeling. Like Santa Clause or JC.

And they will fight for their dream. Expect them to. I didn't say it's gonna make any sense to anyone, just expect them to.:D

[Goats_On_Unicycles]

Lol if you want to get technical you are not even supposed to let the flag touch the ground....The student desecrated them far before anyone walked on them...
OH YEAH!!!! Everybody, remember in Breakfast of Champions where Kurt is talking about America and he's like,
"Not only does America have a national anthemn that's full of blood and violence as well as being riddled with question marks, but it's the only country that has a law against flag dipping"


Yay, flag dipping!!!


And saying "I hate America" for a person from America, or from any other open western society, is like a sulky teenager telling a parent or step parent that they hate them.

I agree but check it out, we've invaded two countries for no reason, we premote disatorous treatment of the environment, we're incredibly homophobic (not as bad as other countries, but that's no excuse), we have a horrid problem with poverty that no-one's trying to fix, etc...

There are worse places... but, you know...

[johnfoss]

Can't a person choose to join up with another person for life, under whatever contract they choose? Why does any government need to be involved?This is off-topic, but just in case Gilby is still out of the loop on this it's not so much about being able to get a marriage license, it's about the *civil rights* of "married" people. Legal rights, such as being able to make major medical decisions for your spouse if he/she is unable to, death benefits, etc. Also tax shelters that can be major, but are only available to opposite-sex couples even if they're criminals and drains on society.

That Civil War fact was interesting though.

So it's wrong to burn the USA flag in public without expecting a drunk idiot to try to beat your ass. Why ? , well, because I told you already it would happen. You should know by now.That's good advice. Even though flag-burning is protected under the law, there are certain things you can expect to happen out in the real world...

I agree but check it out, we've invaded two countries for no reason, we premote disatorous treatment of the environment, we're incredibly homophobic (not as bad as other countries, but that's no excuse), we have a horrid problem with poverty that no-one's trying to fix, etc...

There are worse places... but, you know...What two countries? Iraq and Cambodia? Laos? Various Indian nations? All were with reasons, just bad ones or badly handled. Do we treat the environment worse than most countries, or better? Which ones? Are we more homophobic than most countries, or less? Which are better? Have you visited any of these countries?

Lastly, there are plenty of people in this country trying to fix poverty, and ours is one of the most charity-giving countries on earth. Poverty is hard to "fix." Ever try to get a bunch of homeless people off the streets and into better situations? Some of them just don't want to go. That's a sub-issue and separate topic, but try it some time.

So what's your "best countries" list, and where does the U.S. fall on it, if at all? Pele and others are welcome to join in on this as well.

[peleschramm]

I'm not going to pretend that I know enough about the world to create a accurate "best countries list". Some countries that come to mind that are better than the U.S. are Canada, Britain, Australia, and then a bunch of others. The truth is I don't know all that much about other countries...

[Goats_On_Unicycles]

John, I was speaking about recent US history... I know about the Indian wars and such. I mean, after all, we're illegal immigrants!!! We stole America from the "indians".

But a couple countries I can definatley put on my cool-cat list are Australia, Holand and South Africa.

I'm not saying that America is 100% bad.

Just pretty close. :D

[sockmonster]

So what's your "best countries" list, and where does the U.S. fall on it, if at all? Pele and others are welcome to join in on this as well.

I've been very impressed with your comments on here.

My response to those who say they hate America is just repeating myself. "If you don't like it, make it better."

I'm as frustrated as anyone with the way my country has behaved, and the growing list of things I long to change (health care, the Patriot Act, reproductive rights, foreign policy towards Cuba, China, North Korea, the EU... and so on) but my loyalty remains to this country. I intend to fix it.


But, I still want to play the "best countries game," so, here's my top 3 (excluding USA and Canada, both of which I love)

Norway
France
Belize

[sockmonster]

But a couple countries I can definatley put on my cool-cat list are Australia, Holand and South Africa.



South Africa? Seriously? With it's growing Neo-Nazi movement and wide gap between the wealthy and the proletariat?

[sockmonster]

But a couple countries I can definatley put on my cool-cat list are Australia, Holand and South Africa.


Actually, I question Australia on that list, too. It's like the worlds largest collection of poisonous things. They have a snail that can shoot darts underwater, for crying out loud!

[johnfoss]

We stole America from the "indians".Not exactly. Most Indian cultures didn't believe in land ownership, so they didn't consider it theirs to start with. More accurately, we killed them or forced them off their homelands, then moved in.

But a couple countries I can definatley put on my cool-cat list are Australia, Holand and South Africa.Great human rights record there in SA, though they've made some major improvements. Holland? Too cold. As for Australia, I can't wait to go there, as part of our Unicon XV trip!

So you guys haven't been around much. You can learn a lot about your own country by spending time outside it. I highly recommend it. In fact I'll offer that you can't fully "know" your home country until you've gone to a different one and looked back. And Canada doesn't count, especially for those of us that grew up near the border. :)

[lpounds]

Like Pele said, it's just a piece of fabric that won't do anything if it's damaged. Luckily it's not illegal because that would just be another right stripped away from us...
yes the right to burn flags! I exercise mine every year.

[Goats_On_Unicycles]

Not exactly. Most Indian cultures didn't believe in land ownership, so they didn't consider it theirs to start with. More accurately, we killed them or forced them off their homelands, then moved in.

Great human rights record there in SA, though they've made some major improvements. Holland? Too cold. As for Australia, I can't wait to go there, as part of our Unicon XV trip!

So you guys haven't been around much. You can learn a lot about your own country by spending time outside it. I highly recommend it. In fact I'll offer that you can't fully "know" your home country until you've gone to a different one and looked back. And Canada doesn't count, especially for those of us that grew up near the border. :)
Well, I mean, didn't England used to burn witches at the stake? From what I've heard they've totally changed how they work.

That's good advice you have, unfortunatley being a teenaged starving artist, it'll be a while before I can do some real traveling. :(

[Gilby]

This is off-topic, but just in case Gilby is still out of the loop on this it's not so much about being able to get a marriage license, it's about the *civil rights* of "married" people. Legal rights, such as being able to make major medical decisions for your spouse if he/she is unable to, death benefits, etc. Also tax shelters that can be major, but are only available to opposite-sex couples even if they're criminals and drains on society.
All of that is (or could be) in the contract. Whether that contract is recognized by the court system is a different matter, but it lawfully should.

As for the tax issue, I think you know my opinion of the tax situation in the US... the laws regarding taxes don't apply as broadly as most people think it does and therefore they end up complying erroneously. If you start with the basis of law, and how taxes really apply, then tax shelters are really not that important.

[Danni]

Are you somehow implying that gays aren't human? That even though they love each other, they cannot be joined through marriage? Sounds like I'll have to go burn some flags in retaliation.

[Borges]

What's she doing with that torch?
http://worldheritage.heindorffhus.dk/usa2006-StatueLiberty-large.jpg

[johnfoss]

All of that is (or could be) in the contract.The contract would have to be with the state/federal; whoever controls the tax and other laws.
As for the tax issue, I think you know my opinion of the tax situation in the US... the laws regarding taxes don't apply as broadly as most people think it does...Put your money where your mouth is. How's it been working for you the last couple of April 15ths? I know it's probably too early to tell on the current one, but does any of what you've been espousing actually work without having to go to the Supreme Court first?

What's she doing with that torch?
1. The flag is a mile high, so it's really far away from her.
2. The torch is made of gold leaf, so nothing's going to catch on fire
3. She's trying to see what's coming, but immigrants mostly don't come by boat anymore. She needs to turn to face Newark Airport. :)

[maestro8]

http://aftermathnews.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/bush_step_flag.jpg

[BillyTheMountain]

All of that is (or could be) in the contract. Whether that contract is recognized by the court system is a different matter, but it lawfully should.

Gilby:

But when it's illegal, like contract killing, it's not simply business.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-miscegenation_laws

All anti-miscegenation laws banned the marriage of whites and non-white groups, primarily blacks, but often also Native Americans and Asians.[2] In many states, anti-miscegenation laws also criminalized cohabitation and sex !EEK! between whites and non-whites. In addition, the state of Oklahoma in 1908 banned marriage "between a person of African descent" and "any person not of African descent", and Kentucky and Louisiana in 1932 banned marriage between Native Americans and African Americans.[3] While anti-miscegenation laws are often regarded as a Southern phenomenon, many northern states had anti-miscegenation laws as well.
Although anti-miscegenation amendments were proposed in United States Congress in 1871, 1912-1913 and 1928, [4] [5] a nation-wide law against racially mixed marriages was never enacted. From the 19th century into the 1950s, most US states enforced anti-miscegenation laws. From 1913 to 1948, 30 out of the then 48 states did so. In 1967, the United States Supreme Court unanimously ruled in Loving v. Virginia that anti-miscegenation laws are unconstitutional. With this ruling, these laws were no longer in effect in the remaining 16 states that at the time still enforced them.

In 1967, 16 USA states still outlawed interracial marriage
In 1967, 16 USA states still outlawed interracial marriage
In 1967, 16 USA states still outlawed interracial marriage

[Mikefule]

In 1967, 16 USA states still outlawed interracial marriage
In 1967, 16 USA states still outlawed interracial marriage
In 1967, 16 USA states still outlawed interracial marriage

That needed repeating.

But to be fair, it was only because so many people were absolutely certain that they knew what God wanted other people to do.;)

[BillyTheMountain]

That needed repeating.

But to be fair, it was only because so many people were absolutely certain that they knew what God wanted other people to do.;)

The ;) means you're not really being fair?

[Mikefule]

The ;) means you're not really being fair?

It sort of means I'm being half serious but in a mischievous way. It was not so much a wink as a twinkle in my eye.

As you know, I am an atheist myself. I have no problem with other people choosing to be religious, and there are some religious people whom I admire. However, I detest the very widespread sort of religion which seems to have more to do with a feeling of certainty about how other people should behave.

Whether you choose to base your life philosophy on Confucius, Socrates or Seneca, or on Jesus or Mohammed, you will find that their religions/philosophies are/were all about how the virtuous man should behave, not how the self-appointed virtuous man should tell everyone else to behave.

The bar on racial intermarriage arose from that mentality - not entirely religious, but definitely that mentality.

[BillyTheMountain]

It sort of means I'm being half serious but in a mischievous way. It was not so much a wink as a twinkle in my eye.

As you know, I am an atheist myself. I have no problem with other people choosing to be religious, and there are some religious people whom I admire. However, I detest the very widespread sort of religion which seems to have more to do with a feeling of certainty about how other people should behave.

Whether you choose to base your life philosophy on Confucius, Socrates or Seneca, or on Jesus or Mohammed, you will find that their religions/philosophies are/were all about how the virtuous man should behave, not how the self-appointed virtuous man should tell everyone else to behave.

The bar on racial intermarriage arose from that mentality - not entirely religious, but definitely that mentality.

Mike,

In my estimation, members of the Drug Enforcement Agency have a greater feeling of certainty about how other people should behave than most religious people.

Can you back up your idea that the bar on racial intermarriage arose from a religious mentality? Maybe gimme a Bible quote or something? It's the first I've heard of it.

Billy