The weekend the music died

[Mikefule]

This Saturday, 2nd February, 29 years since the death of Sid Vicious.

Thoughts on mortality: had he lived, he would now be 50 years old.

Drug addicted murderer? Mentally ill victim of appallingly bad parenting (his mother bought the fix that killed him)? Icon and idol?

This Sunday, 3rd February, 49 years since the death of Buddy Holly.

Thoughts on mortality: had he lived, he would now be 71.

[BoojiBoy]

Nobody cares about Sid Vicious. He was as much of a musical influence as Donald Duck's pants.

[Mikefule]

Nobody cares about Sid Vicious. He was as much of a musical influence as Donald Duck's pants.

I agree. He wasn't even a musician, so's anyone would notice. But punk rock was never just about the music.

You were born after he died, but you know who he was and you have an opinion on him. He must have had some influence.

[maestro8]

This Sunday, 3rd February, 49 years since the death of Buddy Holly. Thoughts on mortality: had he lived, he would now be 71.
Doesn't music immortalize one in some ways?

Not only has his music outlasted him, so has his image... surely, you've heard Weezer's famous song (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=FiIC5qcXeNU).

I wouldn't say Buddy's completely dead... just mostly dead.

[Mikefule]

I wouldn't say Buddy's completely dead... just mostly dead.

Well, if he wasn't nailed to his perch, he'd be pushing up daisies...

The Crickets influenced The Beatles (hence the insect-related names) and Buddy Holly's visual image was, er... borrowed heavily... by Freddie (and the dreamers, not Kruger or Mercury) and Elvis Costello.

As the anniversary approaches, the real life Peggy Sue is locked in a legal battle with Holly's widow. Two old women who each only knew the man for a few months half a century ago, arguing over who has the right to make money from the fact. Nice.:(

[BurnerDave]

Joey Ramone. OK, his d-day is in April. But Joey trumps them all.
Aw, Joey, why’d ya hafta go.

[GILD]

But punk rock was never just about the music.


To quote Audrey Niffenegger:
Punk is just the most recent manifestation of this spirit, this feeling, you know, that things aren't exactly right and that in fact things are so wrong that the only thing we can do is to say F*ck It, over and over again, really loud, until someone stops us. (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Time-Travelers-Wife-Audrey-Niffenegger/dp/0224071912)

[JJuggle]

Mick Shrimpton: As long as there's, you know, sex and drugs, I can do without the rock and roll.

[evil-nick]

The Day the Music Died... sigh, you forgot about Richie Valens & The Big Bopper :(

[Mikefule]

I didn't forget about them. Their deaths are just as sad. But I don't put them in the same league as Holly in terms of musical influence and importance, or in the same league as Sid in terms of being iconic. I guessed most people in this forum could say little or nothing about the Big Bopper or Ritchie Valens. Most people would know a little bit about Buddy Holly and Sid.

[Naomi]

I didn't forget about them. Their deaths are just as sad. But I don't put them in the same league as Holly in terms of musical influence and importance, or in the same league as Sid in terms of being iconic. I guessed most people in this forum could say little or nothing about the Big Bopper or Ritchie Valens. Most people would know a little bit about Buddy Holly and Sid.

I am not so sure. I may be a unit of data rather than a statistic, but La Bamba has always been one of the immoveables from my MP3 player. Can there be many who have not heard his version of it? I know a fair bit of the Buddy Holly music, but would not specifically seek it out. And I could not honestly hum the tune or quote any lyric from a Sid Vicious song. But I admit to not being one to whom music is very important.
Influence: well I am not much of a musical historian, but do wonder what Valens might have done had he managed a few more years. He didn't really get much time to be any sort of influence. I didn't live through punk rock, but don't think that I would have been in decibel range of that band wagon if I had.
Big Bopper.....I have heard his name, no more than that.

Nao

[GILD]

I know more about JP Richardson, but probably only because he was a radio presenter turned singer.
The 'Big Bopper' nickname came with him from his radio show.

I suspect the release of the Lou Diamond Phillips movie 'La Bamba' may have had something to do with skewing public perception slightly in Valence's favour, but I have no doubt that Holly stands out as the iconic one of the three.

[vanpaun]

so it goes.

[Mikefule]

I could not honestly hum the tune or quote any lyric from a Sid Vicious song.
well I do wonder what Valens might have done had he managed a few more years.
Big Bopper.....I have heard his name, no more than that.



(1) Neither could he. Sid was an appallingly bad musician. So much so that the band often turned his amplifier of or down to 0. He was potentially a good singer, within a very narrow range. As far as I know, he wrote nothing except a (possibly fake) suicide note, and he performed nothing novel except swearing a bit more than the original writers of his songs intended. According to legend, when Sid asked Lemmy for lessons, he said, "I can't really play the bass," and Lemmy just said, "I know," and walked away.

But Sid wasn't about the music. Frankly, the guy was a deeply unpleasant violent little runt, a drug addict, a murderer, a caricature of his stage persona, and everything your mother warned you about. But his legacy was that he was an icon at a time when punk meant something more than a fashion choice genre of music. (This was a period of a few months only.) Modern celebrity junky idiots like Pete Doherty, Amy Winehouse, Britney Spears and so on are just wannabes. The proof is they're still alive.:rolleyes:

(2) I have nothing against Ritchie Valens, but it takes more than a successful double A side single and a passive role in a plane crash to make a legend. There were hundreds of singers from that time who had one hit or one nearly hit, or a couple of almost nearly hits. There is no reason to think Valens would have gone on to be an all time great, any more than there was to think he would not. Who could have seen Cliff Richard performing Move It in 1959 and predicted the course of his career?;)

(3) Big Bopper, J P Richardson, seems to have been a decent chap, and a competent singer and good performer, but little more than a novelty act, and unlikely to have become a legend. You may have heard:

"Chantilly lace, and a pretty face and a pony tail, hanging down, a wiggle when you walk, and a giggle when you talk, makes the world go round round round, there ain't nothing in the world like a big eyed girl to make you act real funny make you spend your money, make you feel real loose, like a long necked goose, I like a girl, oh baby, that's what I like."

I think that gives a flavour of the longevity of his contribution to popular culture.:eek:

And finally, Buddy Holly. In a short but productive career, he produced enough material to fill a 6 album boxed set. He knew and worked with Eddy Cochran (another great innovator and song writer who died young). He wrote many of his own songs. He played guitar well. He toured the world. He brought the first Fender Stratocaster guitar to Britain.

He could play rock and roll in a three piece band, or play with orchestral string arrangements. The Rolling Stones, Beatles and Bob Dylan have all paid tribute to him. His visual image was copied by several performers, including Elvis Costello. After Holly's death, the demand for the distinctive Buddy Holly sound remained so strong that Bobby Vee made a healthy living for a while singing with Holly's band and attempting to copy Holly's vocal style slavishly.

Anyway, it's sad they all died prematurely. Even Sid, who had a hard life. His own mother, a drug dealer by trade, bought him the fix that killed him, after he had detoxified in prison and lowered his tolerance for drugs.

[harper]

And I could not honestly hum the tune or quote any lyric from a Sid Vicious song.

Don't feel badly. That is because neither is present.

[Mikefule]

Don't feel badly. That is because neither is present.

Not true. The lyrics of the songs he sang are present; say what you like about the melody and his vocal abilities.

He recorded a version of My Way, as well as Cochran's C'mon Everybody, and Something Else. Although Sid deserves no credit for the lyrics, they were good lyrics.

[harper]

Not true. The lyrics of the songs he sang are present; say what you like about the melody and his vocal abilities.



My apologies. I meant merely that he was incoherent. Certainly the lyrics to the songs existed and could qualitatively be said to be good.

[Mikefule]

My apologies. I meant merely that he was incoherent. Certainly the lyrics to the songs existed and could qualitatively be said to be good.

I made a point of listening to the recent compilation album, "Too Fast to Live" album today. (I'll listen to some Buddy Holly tomorrow.)

It is very repetitive, because he only did a tiny number of songs, and the album contains several "takes" of each. However, the best versions he does of the two Cochran songs are not that bad. They are more aggressive than Cochran's originals, of course, but performed moderately well, and you can hear the words.

It is deeply ironic that this anarchist/nihilist social outcast's best performance was of "Something Else" which is perhaps the most "aspirational" goody two shoes song in all of rock and roll. See the lyrics below.

Much of the rest of the album is musically awful. But it is important not to forget the context. Punk is now a comfortable fashion choice for bored middle class kids. In 1976/7 it still had the power to shock. The barbarians were at the gates. "God Save the Queen" was banned on the radio (it was the Queen's jubilee year!) and the album cover with the word "Bollocks" on it caused major ructions in the press when it went on display in shop windows. Spiked hair, chains, leather and studs frightened old ladies. Now some old ladies have them.

On the positive side, the "rip it up and start it again" ethos of punk cleared the decks, and gave a lot of people an opportunity to perform, and live their dreams for a while. It gave rock and roll back to the kids for a short and glorious few months before punk became just another marketing tool for the music industry.


The most aspirational song in rock and roll. I've copied and pasted them from a Google search, and I'm not sure they're 100% accurate:

Something Else

a look a-there, here she comes
there comes that girl again
wanted to date her since I don't know when
but she don't notice me when I pass
she goes with all the guys from outa my class
but that can't stop me from a-thinkin' to myself
she's sure fine lookin' man, she's something else

hey, look a-there, across the street
there's a car made just for me
to own that car would be a luxury
but my dollar can't afford the gas
a brand new convertible is outa my class
but that can't stop me from athinkin' to myself
that car's fine lookin' man, it's something else

hey, look ahere, just wait and see
worked hard and saved my dough
I'll buy that car that I been wanting so
get me that girl and we'll go ridin' around
we'll look real sharp with the flight top down
I keep right on a-dreamin' and a-thinkin' to myself
when it all comes true man, wow, that's something else

look a-there, what's all this
never thought I'd do this before
but here I am a-knockin' on her door
my car's out front and it's all mine
just a forty-one ford, not a fifty-nine
I got that girl an' I'm a-thinkin' to myself
she's sure fine lookin' man, wow, she's something else

[GILD]

On the positive side, the "rip it up and start it again" ethos of punk cleared the decks, and gave a lot of people an opportunity to perform, and live their dreams for a while. It gave rock and roll back to the kids for a short and glorious few months before punk became just another marketing tool for the music industry.


I remember wanting to quote and +1 this comment when you first made it.
I found this thread again today (while looking for the Favourite Cove (http://www.unicyclist.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25070&highlight=johnny+cash+hurt)rs thread) and thought 'rather late than never'. (http://www.unicyclist.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42024&highlight=nate+than+lever)

[BillyTheMountain]

Drug addicted murderer? Mentally ill victim of appallingly bad parenting (his mother bought the fix that killed him)? Icon and idol?


MikeFule: Hypergraphic unicyclist? Sociopolitical commentator with a cult following? Sage? I love reducing people to pithy phrases.

I might suggest your phrase "stage persona" doesn't apply, because Syd was authentic on and off stage. he didnt' care what people thought.

billy

[BillyTheMountain]

Drug addicted murderer? Mentally ill victim of appallingly bad parenting (his mother bought the fix that killed him)? Icon and idol?


MikeFule: Hypergraphic unicyclist? Sociopolitical commentator with a cult following? Sage? I love reducing people to pithy phrases.

I might suggest your phrase "stage persona" doesn't apply, because Syd was authentic on and off stage. he didnt' care what people thought.

billy

[Mikefule]

I might suggest your phrase "stage persona" doesn't apply, because Syd was authentic on and off stage. he didnt' care what people thought.

billy

Sorry, Billy. I hadn't realised you'd known him personally. No offence.:o

I only knew him by the widely published details: the spelling of his stage name with an "i" instead of a "y"; the poignant wording of his suicide note and his final request to be buried in his motorcycle boots with his "baby"; sleeping with a male friend for companionship and comfort; his morbid fear of being thought to be homosexual; people who knew him referring to him as a "sweet kid"; him asking Lemmy to teach him to play bass.

As a performer myself, with a lot of baggage from a bad upbringing, I had wrongly assumed that like many other performers, he had allowed his stage persona to take over his real life by filling in the emotional gaps left by his bad upbringing.

Perhaps if I'd known him personally, and realised that he really didn't care, and was just a git, I would have been less interested.

Tell me, do you think he reached his nihilstic philosophy through extensive reading, solitary contemplation or theogenic inspiration?

[Triball]

Bye, bye, miss American Pie, drove my chevy to the leevee, but the leevee was dry. Them good ol' boys were drinking whiskey and rye, singing 'this will be the day that I die, this will be the day that I die.'

[GILD]

Tell me, do you think he reached his nihilstic philosophy through extensive reading, solitary contemplation or theogenic inspiration?
Another Mikefule post that has me reaching for dictionary.com.

Sigh.

(But not really.)


As a performer myself, with a lot of baggage

If ever you wondered why I play the bagpipes while idling a unicy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtPncDR1qyE)cle...

[SkierAlex]

Music died because some druggy who can't even play an instrument died?

At most shows they had to turn the bass amp off...

[Mikefule]

Music died because some druggy who can't even play an instrument died?


Obviously you missed some of the details. 3rd February (1959) was the death of one of the great pioneer singer/songwriter/musicians of rock and roll, Buddy Holly, along with two talented but less influential performers: the Big Bopper and Ritchie Valens.

That day was famously referred to as The Day the Music Died in the song, American Pie.

Fast forward to 2nd February 1979 (That's 20 years, all but one day) and Sid Vicious died. Sid, as you have pointed out, was not an exceptionally skilled musician, and his attitude to pharmacology left something to be desired. However, 29 years later, Sid Vicious T shirts and other items are on sale in several shops in my city. He left a legacy in terms of image, fashion, and attitude.

In 1959, rock and roll was still new, exciting and capable of offending parents and the authorities.

By 1979, rock and roll in its various forms had become a mass-produced product. Then along came Punk and for a few glorious months, it was new, exciting and capable of offending parents and the authorities,

Where are we in 2008? Amy Whine-house has the songwriting and vocal talent to do what Buddy Holly did (produce a huge output of good quality music) but chooses instead to promote herself using Sid's methods. Pete Doherty did the same.

[BillyTheMountain]

Tell me, do you think he reached his nihilstic philosophy through extensive reading, solitary contemplation or theogenic inspiration?

By lots of drugs and alcohol--which helps most people drop concerns about what others think--and accessing his inner narcissistic rageful tantruming 2-year-old through contact with punk music.

[Mikefule]

Do you not think that sometimes the quest for an explanation is a sign of being unable to accept that coincidences sometimes just happen?

[BillyTheMountain]

Do you not think that sometimes the quest for an explanation is a sign of being unable to accept that coincidences sometimes just happen?

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Coincidence is the noteworthy alignment of two or more events or circumstances without obvious causal connection. The word is derived from the Latin co- ("in", "with", "together") and incidere ("to fall on").
The index of coincidence can be used to analyze whether two events are related. A coincidence does not prove a relationship, but related events may be expected to have a higher index of coincidence. From a statistical perspective, coincidences are inevitable and often less remarkable than they may appear intuitively. The odds that two people share a birthday, for example, reaches 50% with a group of just 23 (see the Birthday problem).

[Mikefule]

The important word in there being "noteworthy". That is a subjective term. There are no coincidences without observers. Some observers accept that some coincidences "just happen". Others seek explanations.

A clearly definable category of coincidence that is repeated several times suggests some direct or indirect causal relationship and might therefore prompt a rational inquiry. What is irrational is the seeking of explanations for coincidences on the basis of their (subjective) noteworthiness alone.

[BillyTheMountain]

Tell me, do you think he reached his nihilstic philosophy through extensive reading, solitary contemplation or theogenic inspiration?

Mike,

Wow! Either you finally read Syd's biography, or you're clairvoyant!!

Syd Vicious actually came to heroin addiction after achieving enlightenment in India, where he practiced solitary contemplation and transcendental meditation.

It's pretty much an established fact he was a SIDHA and a highly evolved being.

The ashram wanted him to stay and teach, as many followers fell to his feet, but he felt his message needed to reach a wider audience, so he formed the Sex Pistols.

Personally, I'm glad he chose that path.

And of course, as to pretense, I think the name given to him by his teacher Swami Muktanananda, which was Baba Pun Kabab, would have hindered the transmission of his very important message he was bringing to the West. Not pretense at all.

Billy

[maestro8]

With much respect for Sid Vicious, I'd like to propose a new date for music's death.

That date would be October 21, 2008: when Brokencyde (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brokencyde) released their first label-backed album "BC13".

brokeNCYDE 'Freaxxx'

Music's death was confirmed shortly thereafter, when Attack Attack! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_Attack!) released their debut album "Someday Came Suddenly" on November 11, 2008.

Attack Attack! - Stick Stickly

Words cannot express the pain and sorrow (but mostly pain) I am experiencing now, having seen these atrocities committed upon music. Only beer can save me now...

[Mikefule]

Crikey! What a row! It's all thump thump thump, no tune you can whistle, and you can't hear the words. Not like in our day when it was Motörhead, Iron Maiden and the Sex Pistols.

[GILD]

I do particularly hate the vocal treatment in that first video.
The whole Rihanna-permanent-vocoder sound really doen't work for me.

But to each his/her own, I guess, I liked Sigue Sigue Sputnik at one point, so I guess I should just get back in my glasshouse.

[GILD]

I do particularly hate the vocal treatment in that first video.
The whole Rihanna-permanent-vocoder sound really doen't work for me.

But to each his/her own, I guess, I liked Sigue Sigue Sputnik at one point, so I guess I should just get back in my glasshouse.

[BillyTheMountain]

Dave,

We heard you the first time.

billy

[GILD]

It was meant as a saptil reference to the amount of echo on the voice.

But if you insist on spoiling the joke for everyone, be like that.

[BillyTheMountain]

i didn't mean to.:o

it was far too saptil for me to detect.:confused:

sorry.

and now that you've explained it: :D

[GILD]

I'm actually just talking kak.
I have no idea why that posted twice.

It's the ghost pages, they're infecting everything.

[BillyTheMountain]

I'm actually just talking kak.
I have no idea why that posted twice.

It's the ghost pages, they're infecting everything.

:eek::eek::eek: