Christianity, what I believe it to mean. [Archive]

spazdude222

2007-12-09, 02:24 AM

I wanted to post this thread as a place for people to (if they want) try and understand what I understand christianity to be. I noticed that in the Zeitgeist movie Christianity is shown to be a big joke, because God loves us, but still send us to hell for breaking any of the Ten Commandments. I wanted to try and explain to anyone who might acctually think that's what Christians believe, why it's not what we believe. I KNOW this is going to become a debate thread, or perhaps more likely just die, but I felt it was worth a try.

Christians believe that God is BOTH infinitely loving, AND infinitely just, and to illustrate why people go to hell, I want to use this allegory: Let's pretend God is a teacher, and we are students. The teacher tells us that the ONLY way we can expect to pass the class, is to do an EASY project. Then the teacher sends his teacher aides to help you along, and to spread the news of the easy project to the whole school, so that other students can choose to pass. The teacher OBVIOUSLY wants the students to pass. However, the teacher is very fair, so the students who don't do the project will not pass; they chose not to do it, despite how easy it was, and so they are doomed to fail. If the teacher were to say, "you must all do this project to pass" and then pass the kids who didn't do it, it would be really unfair. But the teacher isn't unfair.

That's what God did for us. He told us what we had to do to go to heaven, and he told us what would happen if we didn't do it. He made it really really easy to be saved, which is his infinite love: he wants desperately for us to "pass"; that is, get to heaven. However, if we refuse his way, we will not "pass," we will not get to heaven, we will go to hell. He is fair, and plays by the rules he set.

Jerrick

2007-12-09, 02:32 AM

cool-bananas

2007-12-09, 02:38 AM

He told us what we had to do to go to heaven, and he told us what would happen if we didn't do it. He made it really really easy to be saved, which is his infinite love: he wants desperately for us to "pass"; that is, get to heaven. However, if we refuse his way, we will not "pass," we will not get to heaven, we will go to hell. He is fair, and plays by the rules he set.

ok well im Christian or at least was baptised a Christian. I dont follow the Bible or belive that there is a God etc... So does this mean im going to hell?

Also who is a Christian? Is it the person who goes to Church weekly, someone who is baptised, or the person who acts according to the scriptures?

Jerrick

2007-12-09, 02:51 AM

ok well im Christian or at least was baptised a Christian. I dont follow the Bible or belive that there is a God etc... So does this mean im going to hell?

Also who is a Christian? Is it the person who goes to Church weekly, someone who is baptised, or the person who acts according to the scriptures?

According to Christianity, yes, you would go to Hell. But if you dont believe in Christ, then this shouldnt bother you. If going to Heaven and Hell do bother you though, id like to hear more about it. It would be interesting when coming from one who doesnt believe in Christ yet would worry about Heaven and Hell.

Well, the Bible says you need to be Baptized. I wasnt baptized as a kid, which I like, because that would be more of a symbolic things saying my parents would raise me this way, and I wouldnt have a choice, so the meaning wouldnt truly be there.

I am a born again Christian, and have yet to be baptised, so technically I am not fully a Christian, but I am going to be baptized soon.

What is also said is that you need both words and works to be Christian. I can say tons of good things, never lie and curse, and pray, but if then I go out and do actions not according to the Bible, then whatever I said verbally means nothing, and vise versa. If I do everything good physically, yet then go and verbally do something bad, then none of it from before would matter.

What it takes is giving your life to Christ, making sacrifices so that you live to honor God. To say the right things, and to do the right actions. That to me is to be a Christian.

cool-bananas

2007-12-09, 03:02 AM

According to Christianity, yes, you would go to Hell. But if you dont believe in Christ, then this shouldnt bother you. If going to Heaven and Hell do bother you though, id like to hear more about it. It would be interesting when coming from one who doesnt believe in Christ yet would worry about Heaven and Hell.
.

Im not saying it bothers me because I personally dont belive there to be a Heaven and Hell. I just find that it is interesting that even thou I dont belive in Christ, heaven, hell etc.. that I would still be going there in the eyes of a Christian.

James_Potter

2007-12-09, 03:41 AM

Was it really necessary to make a new thread? Whatever,

Christians believe that God is BOTH infinitely loving, AND infinitely just, and to illustrate why people go to hell, I want to use this allegory: Let's pretend God is a teacher, and we are students. The teacher tells us that the ONLY way we can expect to pass the class, is to do an EASY project. Then the teacher sends his teacher aides to help you along, and to spread the news of the easy project to the whole school, so that other students can choose to pass. The teacher OBVIOUSLY wants the students to pass. However, the teacher is very fair, so the students who don't do the project will not pass; they chose not to do it, despite how easy it was, and so they are doomed to fail. If the teacher were to say, "you must all do this project to pass" and then pass the kids who didn't do it, it would be really unfair. But the teacher isn't unfair.
That allegory makes sense, however, try this:
Someone comes up to you on the street, someone you have never seen before, and says this: "Someone told me that you are in a class. The teacher wants you to pass, and to pass you need to do a project. It's an easy project, and if you don't do it, you'll get expelled from this class."
Would you believe this random person? I doubt it. That's what the Bible is like...preachers are telling you that something called God wants you to do something for Him or Her, and if you don't then you'll go to this place called Hell. There's nothing there to give you any reason to believe it other than this stranger's word. You can choose to believe it, if you want, but there's no reason to.

That's what God did for us. He told us what we had to do to go to heaven, and he told us what would happen if we didn't do it. He made it really really easy to be saved, which is his infinite love: he wants desperately for us to "pass"; that is, get to heaven. However, if we refuse his way, we will not "pass," we will not get to heaven, we will go to hell. He is fair, and plays by the rules he set.
Another difference is that we choose to take classes. However if God created us, and created two destinies, one in which we are happy and one in which we suffer for eternity, we were never given the choice to be in this life. If He or She knows that some people will burn in Hell, that automatically makes God a pretty sadistic being. If God loves us, why would He or She make a Hell at all?

spazdude222

2007-12-09, 03:53 AM

[QUOTE=Jerrick]
Well, the Bible says you need to be Baptized...not fully a ChristianQUOTE]
This is one of the things I disagree with. I personally believe that (according to Eph. 2:8-9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Eph.%202:8-9;&version=31;)) that works are NOT necessary to be saved. i believe that, although baptism is important, it's not INTRINSIC. I think someone who is not baptised is still fully Christian. In my opinion, because I've never read or heard of a verse that says you have to get baptised to be saved, it's merely a gesture to show the world that you believe. It's like saying to God "I trust you, and want to show the world how I feel about you."

In my opinion, (from Romans 10:9-10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2010:9-10;&version=31;)) the only thing necessary to be a full Christian is a true belief that jesus was God's Son and was raised from the dead after dying for the sins of the world, and confessing this belief o the world.

One of my favorite quotes concerning these sort of dogmatic and doctrinal differences between denominations and/or individual christians is from St. Augustine of Hippo, who said "In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity." Basically, if it isn't that important, then don't fret it. Just because two Christians see slightly different views of different issues doesn't mean we can both love eachother and accept each other. The only things that we MUST agree upon for us both to be Christians are, to my understanding, the following: Jesus was God, Jesus died for the sins of the world, Jesus rose from the dead three days after his death.

spazdude222

2007-12-09, 04:01 AM

Another difference is that we choose to take classes. However if God created us, and created two destinies, one in which we are happy and one in which we suffer for eternity, we were never given the choice to be in this life. If He or She knows that some people will burn in Hell, that automatically makes God a pretty sadistic being. If God loves us, why would He or She make a Hell at all?
If I created something, but gave it no CHOICE weather or not to love me, is it really love that the cration feels for me? God gave us free will (so that we can truely love) and the knowledge that some choices will lead to consequences. The whole idea of "he knew what was going to happen before it happened...he didn't give us a choice" can perhaps be better understood with another allegory. If I offer a child a brown bag of candy, and a brown bag full of dirt, and I knew the kid really well, I'd know which kids are gonna want the candy, and which ones are going to want the dirt, but that doesn't mean I'm choosing for them. God knows which people will choose life and which will choose death, but that doesn't mean you don't have the choice, it just mean's you are predictable and he knows you very well. He did, after all, create you.

James_Potter

2007-12-09, 04:08 AM

If I created something, but gave it no CHOICE weather or not to love me, is it really love that the cration feels for me? God gave us free will (so that we can truely love) and the knowledge that some choices will lead to consequences. The whole idea of "he knew what was going to happen before it happened...he didn't give us a choice" can perhaps be better understood with another allegory. If I offer a child a brown bag of candy, and a brown bag full of dirt, and I knew the kid really well, I'd know which kids are gonna want the candy, and which ones are going to want the dirt, but that doesn't mean I'm choosing for them. God knows which people will choose life and which will choose death, but that doesn't mean you don't have the choice, it just mean's you are predictable and he knows you very well. He did, after all, create you.
First of all, "God" did not give us instructions, or anything else. A human, several humans actually, wrote about God doing it. So, like I said before, you can choose to believe this human was inspired by a divine being if you so choose.
Assuming that it is divinely inspired, nothing means He or She needs to make us suffer for all eternity if we choose to not follow His or Her instructions. Obviously a kid will eat candy instead of dirt, because the candy is right there, the dirt is right there in front of his or her eyes. But someone is telling us to "imagine" that there's a nice place in the sky we can go to, if we do some things. If God truly wanted us to do something, He or She would not make it possible for this debate. He or She would be right here, giving us choices, not sending messengers to only few people, who then pass that message on to us, and expect us to believe it.

ridingwithscissors

2007-12-09, 04:19 AM

/\
.l
.l
very interesting point. I can't wait to see someone reply...

spazdude222

2007-12-09, 04:20 AM

First of all, "God" did not give us instructions, or anything else. A human, several humans actually, wrote about God doing it. So, like I said before, you can choose to believe this human was inspired by a divine being if you so choose.
Assuming that it is divinely inspired, nothing means He or She needs to make us suffer for all eternity if we choose to not follow His or Her instructions. Obviously a kid will eat candy instead of dirt, because the candy is right there, the dirt is right there in front of his or her eyes. But someone is telling us to "imagine" that there's a nice place in the sky we can go to, if we do some things. If God truly wanted us to do something, He or She would not make it possible for this debate. He or She would be right here, giving us choices, not sending messengers to only few people, who then pass that message on to us, and expect us to believe it.
Obviously any allegory is going to be flawed to an extent. I assumed you realized that, but since you may not, let me just say one more thing without using an allegory.

For us to assume that God should work in human terms, in ways we deem "believable" or by offering up what we deem "acceptable" as proof seems stupid to me. If God is any sort of All powerful God, it makes sense to me that he would be beyond our comprehension. The birth of a child, Aurora Borealis, The Grand Tetons, cute baby animals, all these things, despite having scientific explanations of HOW they happen, scream loudly the existence of God. That we can live in such an intricate and wonderful world that is only a FRACTION of the entire created universe which is full of awe-inspiring events that are both beautiful and mighty and terrible and brillient and mystifying and explainable all at once points to the greatness of God. I don't honestly look to God for the How, he provided humans with minds to figure that out scientifically, I look to God for the Why. So far, he's done a darn good job at that.

wickedbob

2007-12-09, 04:21 AM

Was it really necessary to make a new thread? Whatever,

That allegory makes sense, however, try this:
Someone comes up to you on the street, someone you have never seen before, and says this: "Someone told me that you are in a class. The teacher wants you to pass, and to pass you need to do a project. It's an easy project, and if you don't do it, you'll get expelled from this class."
Would you believe this random person? I doubt it. That's what the Bible is like...preachers are telling you that something called God wants you to do something for Him or Her, and if you don't then you'll go to this place called Hell. There's nothing there to give you any reason to believe it other than this stranger's word. You can choose to believe it, if you want, but there's no reason to.

Another difference is that we choose to take classes. However if God created us, and created two destinies, one in which we are happy and one in which we suffer for eternity, we were never given the choice to be in this life. If He or She knows that some people will burn in Hell, that automatically makes God a pretty sadistic being. If God loves us, why would He or She make a Hell at all?

Nice post, Mikeal. That is kind of how I am (relating to the allegory). Other religions say the same exact thing so how am I to decide? If god was real would he make this life a mere guessing game for some? What about those who have not been exposed to this religion? Are they for ever doomed because of the fact they don't live in a westernized world? The people before Jesus, what about them?

What happens to an atheist scientist who lived a moral life? He did not believe in god, yet he still lived a moral life. With he research he saved millions of innocent people from death and suffering. Does this great peaceful man go to hell even though he lived a moral life and saved millions?

James_Potter

2007-12-09, 04:26 AM

For us to assume that God should work in human terms, in ways we deem "believable" or by offering up what we deem "acceptable" as proof seems stupid to me. If God is any sort of All powerful God, it makes sense to me that he would be beyond our comprehension.
Not trying to be offensive here, but saying something like that automatically blinds yourself. Basically you said that if what God does makes no sense, it's because He is God, and it's beyond us to understand it.

spazdude222

2007-12-09, 04:32 AM

nothing means He or She needs to make us suffer for all eternity
I would like to ask if you mean (more or less) that an eternity of suffering isn't fair. If that's the case, I want to point out that the human perception of fairness is flawed to the extreme. My little brother complains if he gets a scoop less ice cream than I for dessert. "It isn't fair," he says. Children in Africa die daily because they are malnourished, or because they were raped by an adult carrying HIV/AIDS. People get taxed on money they invested even though the already payed taxes on it when they earned it. "It's not fair" they say. Women in some middle eastern countries are reated like dogs, sold, bought, neglected, beat, and all around mistreated. Impoverished people in america can buy a weeks worth of groceries with food stamps and then pull out a 50 and buy a few dozen lottery tickets. "No fair" exclaim the middle and upper classes. America claims a right to oil that doesn't come from our country, and has formed a foreign policy around the assumption that other countries owe us that oil. Tell me again how we can be the judge of "fairness". Tell me again when the last time our ideas of "fairness" were entirely static, much less accurate.

wickedbob

2007-12-09, 04:33 AM

Not trying to be offensive here, but saying something like that automatically blinds yourself. Basically you said that if what God does makes no sense, it's because He is God, and it's beyond us to understand it.

Yeah, that was interesting to read. I just wanted to know why he made us less intelligent than him. It seems very intelligent people seem to have more questions maybe that is why. Intelligent people seems more likely to go against that who is in power.

spazdude222

2007-12-09, 04:46 AM

Not trying to be offensive here, but saying something like that automatically blinds yourself. Basically you said that if what God does makes no sense, it's because He is God, and it's beyond us to understand it.
I see your point, and at the time, I have no way to refute it. In fact, I acctually think you are right, to an extent. It is sort of like blinding myself. But to be honest, I've considered other sides, and to me, this makes sense. Ready for another allegory? As little children, think very young, only 3 or so years old, we often don't understand what our parents are telling us, or why they are telling it to us. Often times we won't even realize that it was for our own good untill later. Our minds at the time were unable to grasp certain concepts. Perhaps, for example, the concept of a hot pan. My mom had told me it was hot, and not to touch it, but I didn't really understand why she was telling me that, untill I touched it. Your dad might tell you that you can't watch a movie, but gives no really good reason why not, so you watch it, and have nightmares for weeks because it was too scary for you to handle at the time, but you didn't really understand what your dad meant by too scary for you. God often tells us things, that don't make sense to us, because in comparrison to his omnipotence and omniscience, we are children. We don' understand things the way he does, so he has to try and make us understand by speaking on our level, and when we still don't undersand what his purpose is, he might simply pull the "because I said so." He has good reasons, but thast doesn't mean we can understand them.

Goats_On_Unicycles

2007-12-09, 04:50 AM

spazdude222

2007-12-09, 04:57 AM

I like Jesus or "God" cuz he told people to love and respect each other. He layed down some deep and serious shit. In my mind, true Christians follow Jesus' teachings and the whole "believing in God" part is secondary. But that's just what I think.
How do you know that God's a guy though?
I don't. I refer to Him as a He because of three main reasons:
A) thats how He's refered to in the Bible
B) In the english language, an indefinite subject is always "he" rather than "she"
C) If cars, boats, space ships from TV, and countries all get to be "shes" we boys should get God! ;) (not to mention MOTHER nature)

wickedbob

2007-12-09, 05:04 AM

Nice post, Mikeal. That is kind of how I am (relating to the allegory). Other religions say the same exact thing so how am I to decide? If god was real would he make this life a mere guessing game for some? What about those who have not been exposed to this religion? Are they for ever doomed because of the fact they don't live in a westernized world? The people before Jesus, what about them?

What happens to an atheist scientist who lived a moral life? He did not believe in god, yet he still lived a moral life. With he research he saved millions of innocent people from death and suffering. Does this great peaceful man go to hell even though he lived a moral life and saved millions?

I was not trying to be offensive, do you have an answer for my questions?

James_Potter

2007-12-09, 05:09 AM

I would like to ask if you mean (more or less) that an eternity of suffering isn't fair. If that's the case, I want to point out that the human perception of fairness is flawed to the extreme. My little brother complains if he gets a scoop less ice cream than I for dessert. "It isn't fair," he says. Children in Africa die daily because they are malnourished, or because they were raped by an adult carrying HIV/AIDS. People get taxed on money they invested even though the already payed taxes on it when they earned it. "It's not fair" they say. Women in some middle eastern countries are reated like dogs, sold, bought, neglected, beat, and all around mistreated. Impoverished people in america can buy a weeks worth of groceries with food stamps and then pull out a 50 and buy a few dozen lottery tickets. "No fair" exclaim the middle and upper classes. America claims a right to oil that doesn't come from our country, and has formed a foreign policy around the assumption that other countries owe us that oil. Tell me again how we can be the judge of "fairness". Tell me again when the last time our ideas of "fairness" were entirely static, much less accurate.
I agree that life isn't "fair". But the point is that God still condemns certain people to eternal pain...eternity is a long, long time. God could instead say that people who follow his rules go to Heaven after this life, but others just die and that's the end (in fact some religions do believe that) or that those who are not moral enough to get to heaven instead get reincarnated into another life on Earth until they do learn all their life lessons and are able to go to Heaven (again, certain religions teach this). So out of all of these possibilities and beliefs, the thought that a "loving" God would create a place to torture people who don't do what He tells them to, is somewhat ludicrous, you have to admit.
Jack Kerouac wrote this in his book the Dharma Bums:
"I don't think Hell is anything but a dream cooked up by some hysterical monks who didn't understand Buddha's peace under the Bo Tree or for that matter Christ's peace looking down on the heads of his tormentors and forgiving them."

James_Potter

2007-12-09, 05:12 AM

I was not trying to be offensive, do you have an answer for my questions?
I don't think anyone has an answer for those questions...everyone, theists and atheists alike, have been trying to justify their beliefs and make sense of the world/reality for millions of years and failing.

spazdude222

2007-12-09, 05:14 AM

I was not trying to be offensive, do you have an answer for my questions?
Ok. This is a tricky question. Lemme give it my best shot. Based on what I know from the Bible and believe to be true, he would, sadly, go to hell. But please let me add on this disclaimer: Your own personal, or in this case Mr. Atheist Scientist's own personal soul is not mine to condemn. For all I know, God might let people into heaven on good behavior if the behavior is REALLY good. Sometimes I try to explain it this way. Jesus is like a free ticket into heaven. If you put your faith in him, and are a christian and all that good stuff, you are garunteed a spot in heaven. If you don't...well I wish you luck because I don't know what's going to happen to you when you die. Again, it's not my place as a Christian to pass judgement or condemn souls. My job, is to reach as many people as I can to tell them the good news of Jesus Christ. I can't make them believe, and I can't say for sure what happens if they don't, but if I don't at least give them the information they need to make the decision to follow Christ, then I have failed miserably at being a Christian.

wickedbob

2007-12-09, 05:14 AM

I don't think anyone has an answer for those questions...everyone, theists and atheists alike, have been trying to justify their beliefs and make sense of the world/reality for millions of years and failing.

Yeah, I just wanted to know a Christians answer, in this case sam. (that is your name right spazzdude?)

wickedbob

2007-12-09, 05:21 AM

Ok. This is a tricky question. Lemme give it my best shot. Based on what I know from the Bible and believe to be true, he would, sadly, go to hell. But please let me add on this disclaimer: Your own personal, or in this case Mr. Atheist Scientist's own personal soul is not mine to condemn. For all I know, God might let people into heaven on good behavior if the behavior is REALLY good. Sometimes I try to explain it this way. Jesus is like a free ticket into heaven. If you put your faith in him, and are a christian and all that good stuff, you are garunteed a spot in heaven. If you don't...well I wish you luck because I don't know what's going to happen to you when you die. Again, it's not my place as a Christian to pass judgement or condemn souls. My job, is to reach as many people as I can to tell them the good news of Jesus Christ. I can't make them believe, and I can't say for sure what happens if they don't, but if I don't at least give them the information they need to make the decision to follow Christ, then I have failed miserably at being a Christian.

I get what you mean. I guess this whole christian thing has it;s gray areas like everything else then. I guess this would also apply to the people never exposed to the religion of Christianity. Still doesn't leave much room for the people made before the religion though... do you know if they had their own set of rules? If so were they abruptly changed, possibly causing the way they live their lives or were they excused in a way? If you don't have an answer, I understand. I'm am genuinely interested, honest.

James_Potter

2007-12-09, 05:24 AM

Ok. This is a tricky question. Lemme give it my best shot. Based on what I know from the Bible and believe to be true, he would, sadly, go to hell.
Is that really what you want to believe though? There are plenty of religions to choose from, and one in which an innocent soul of a good person is punished for one "wrong" decision is simply...unpleasant. In my not so humble opinion, anyway.
Too many people believe what they believe just because it's what they've been told to believe for their entire lives...and even if one does start to question these beliefs, no one wants to disappoint or get disowned by their parents by converting.
It can be hard, but it's not a bad thing to change your mind about religion...I have many, many times.

You should read the book Life of Pi.

But please let me add on this disclaimer: Your own personal, or in this case Mr. Atheist Scientist's own personal soul is not mine to condemn. For all I know, God might let people into heaven on good behavior if the behavior is REALLY good. Sometimes I try to explain it this way. Jesus is like a free ticket into heaven. If you put your faith in him, and are a christian and all that good stuff, you are garunteed a spot in heaven. If you don't...well I wish you luck because I don't know what's going to happen to you when you die. Again, it's not my place as a Christian to pass judgement or condemn souls. My job, is to reach as many people as I can to tell them the good news of Jesus Christ. I can't make them believe, and I can't say for sure what happens if they don't, but if I don't at least give them the information they need to make the decision to follow Christ, then I have failed miserably at being a Christian.
That is good of you...I hate it when some Christians (or anyone of any religion, really) tries to tell me I'm going to Hell for not believing the same thing they do. I usually tell them that is up to God, not you.

wickedbob

2007-12-09, 05:26 AM

That is good of you...I hate it when some Christians (or anyone of any religion, really) tries to tell me I'm going to Hell for not believing the same thing they do. I usually tell them that is up to God, not you.

Yeah, he seems reasonable about it. Got to give him props, yo.

spazdude222

2007-12-09, 05:49 AM

I agree that life isn't "fair". But the point is that God still condemns certain people to eternal pain...eternity is a long, long time. God could instead say that people who follow his rules go to Heaven after this life, but others just die and that's the end (in fact some religions do believe that) or that those who are not moral enough to get to heaven instead get reincarnated into another life on Earth until they do learn all their life lessons and are able to go to Heaven (again, certain religions teach this). So out of all of these possibilities and beliefs, the thought that a "loving" God would create a place to torture people who don't do what He tells them to, is somewhat ludicrous, you have to admit.
Jack Kerouac wrote this in his book the Dharma Bums:
"I don't think Hell is anything but a dream cooked up by some hysterical monks who didn't understand Buddha's peace under the Bo Tree or for that matter Christ's peace looking down on the heads of his tormentors and forgiving them."
I think, personally, that if you understand what Christians believe is the WHOLE story, it makes more sense. I'm by no means qualified to teach on this, but I'm gonna give it my best shot. This is how I understand the Chronology, not for sure how it supposedly happened, and def. not the order it is talked about in the bible.

1. God created the world
2. Lucifer, God's right hand man, an angel, grew jealous of God's power, and tried to mutiny
3. God cast him from heaven, he became Satan
4. Satan tempted Adam and Eve, who commited the first sin
5. Humanity became sinful. Sin can be described as the ultimate dominant gene (not literaly), everyone inherits it from their father, who all got it from adam6. God set up (judaism) a way for people to be forgiven of their sins with the sacrifice of animals and other things. The sacrifices are not so much about the brutality of killing animals, as much as about the willingness to give something that you value (wealth was measured in livestock often in those times)
7. This complex and repetitive ritual is sort of like a predescesor, an introduction to the way things will work later.
8. Jesus comes to earth. He is all god, and all man, (go figure, I still can't fully grasp that one). Because he is born of a virgin, Jesus (in a sense) doesn't have the "sin gene." He lives the only perfect and sinless life in the history of mankind.
9. as a part of God's ultimate plan, Jesus dies (symbolic of the sacrificing of animals in the old way of doing things) with the sins of the world, past, present and future all cast onto him. (that much sin on one person I think is the reason God was forced to look away, to turn his back on Jesus {which is why Jesus said "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" which translates to "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"})
10. Jesus' soul (I think this is biblically accurate) did go to Hell while he was dead the three days, and there he set free all the righteous people who'd died and been sent there on a stroke of bad luck or timing.
11. Jesus rose from the dead, came back from hell, thus he conquered sin, and death and hell in one fell swoop.
12. Because Jesus was the one sacrifice for all the sins of the world past present and future, we now only have to accept him as our savior to be eternally forgiven. It doesn't mean we'll never sin again, it just means we will be forgiven of our sins.

Things in bold are: things I can't swear to as being Biblically accurate, things I described using metaphors, or things I'm not sure where in the bible they can be found, but am pretty sure are in there. I'm just giving you the best explanation as I understand things.

Hell, most accurately, is eternal seperation from God and thus from Love, Kindness, and Goodness in general. My understanding is that God didn't create hell with the intention of having a place to send bad people. When man sinned, the connection between Perfect God, and Man was lost. The intimate freindship bonds between God and man were severed. God cannot coexist with sin, so God had to set up the above plan to give us a way to re-establish the connection to him. In the process of sin entering the human species, however, those who die without accepting the gift of heaven from Jesus are stuck for an eternity without God, thus, they are likely stuck with satan.

spazdude222

2007-12-09, 05:59 AM

Guess what time it is! Allegory time!
This is how I've been explained the concept of sin.
It's like if all of people were throwing rocks at the moon. Some people might get the ricks further, some might get them really really high, but it's such a lofty goal, it can't be reached, so god made a way for us to get the rock to the moon, and that way is jesus, who in this allegory is a rocket to the mooon, and once you're there, all you have to do is drop the rock to hit the moon.
God is Perfect, no person is perfect. There may be people who are better than others, but when perfection is the goal, you can forget about anyone being good enough to matter. But God made a plan for us to gain forgiveness for all our sins, he made a way for us to be grantd amnesty. All we have to do is accept Jesus, once we do that, we can get to God.

wickedbob

2007-12-09, 06:02 AM

spazdude222

2007-12-09, 06:12 AM

That is again, asking me to venture outside what I am really qualified to talk about, but I'll do my best to explain what I understand of it. I think, that people who lived righteously, that is, with little sin, and the sin that was there was taken care of in the prescribed Jewish fashion, were allowed into heaven. However, if you were unlucky enough to have died suddenly, before having a chance to sacrifice something for the forgiveness of your recent sins, you'd have gone to hell. But, I do believe that pasrt of the story of Jesus is that while he was dead he went to hell and basically put the smack down on satan, freeing the souls of those unfortunate people. What I really don't know about at all are the people who go their whole lives without ever hearing the Gospel. Like maybe a small tibe of people living on a romote island. I don't know how that kind of stuff works. I assume that God will deal with those people who had no way of excepting Jesus for one reason or another will be dealt with fairly, but I don't know what God's plan is for them.

spazdude222

2007-12-09, 06:16 AM

I am really getting tired now. I'm going to go to bed. I just want to leave with one closing remark. One of the reasons I choose Christianity, is that it's the only religion I've heard of in which God loves humans so much he reaches out to make a way for man to get to him, rather than man reaching desperately to earn a spot with God.

wickedbob

2007-12-09, 06:23 AM

NewKid

2007-12-09, 06:38 AM

Just butting in--I havn't read all the posts, but

Personally, I WANT more than anything to believe 100% in all of Christianity, but it's extremely difficult sometimes.

I admit that I'm not educated very well at all, and I hate to say it, but sometimes it's really easy to play devil's advocate. (no pun intended.) My parents are ChrEasters, they go to church on Christmas, and Easter. It's really not a big thing in our day to day lives, and I honestly only acknowledge God maybe once a week...

The best explanation I've ever gotten is that we see God through cloudy glasses, and as soon as we arrive at the gates of Heaven the glasses will be removed and all our questions will be answered. It will be like, "Oh yeahh, so that's why..." But until then I TRY to have as much faith as I can.

Congratulations on your understanding--seriously--and I highly respect your fortitude.

Matt_V

2007-12-09, 06:43 AM

I still don't understand how God could send people to hell, just for not giving their life to Christ. I feel like he hasn't really given me proof that he exists and expects me to just take a chance and possable waste my life trying to serve him only to find out that he doesn't exist. Why doesn't he give us indisputable proof that he is real, instead of expected us to just somehow have faith in something just because other people tell us that it's true? I will never be able to put my complete faith in him unless he talks to me or shows me that he is acually real.

If I tried believe in him and become a christian, but I never really was able to decide for sure, would I go to heaven, or would he send me to hell, just because that is the way he made me?

NewKid

2007-12-09, 06:48 AM

This is what I was taught,
Heaven is eternal salvation, and Hell is like the eternal "nashing of teeth." As in like, "Arhh, I wish I was there." There's no fire, and no fiend poking you with a pitchfork.

So I'm ASSUMING God doesn't necessarily put you on the naughty list and send you to Hell, you are simply not freed.

EDIT: I do share the same view as Matt V and Goats On Unicycles. Like I said, we see God through cloudy glasses, and I really hope that's the case. I'd rather live in blissful ignorance and happinness, than question my faith everyday...

I truly believe Christianity is the answer to world peace...but the world needs proof.

Matt_V

2007-12-09, 06:51 AM

One more thing..

Why is going to heaven referred to as "having eternal life", when you would go to hell for eternity to?

captainkrunk61

2007-12-09, 06:56 AM

I agree with your view on Hell NewKid, that's exactly what I was about to post.

And Matt I think the saying having eternal life is referring to having eternal life with God, and life can alos be substituted for like joy or hapiness whereas hell brings pain and longing for Christ.

NewKid

2007-12-09, 06:57 AM

Eternal salvation and eternal life are two different things. Good question though, time to dust off the good book...

I'd wiki it.

gabetheunicycleman

2007-12-09, 09:42 AM

thejdw

2007-12-09, 10:22 AM

I personaly belive that the bible should have remained a story, and an edited version most widly used (with all the hate cut out). The fact that it is presented to us as real kinda make it hard to follow when getting thretended with hell every time you mention you don't belive in it (yes not all people do this but some do).

Mikefule

2007-12-09, 05:25 PM

Well, I for one do not disagree with a single word that Jesus wrote.

monkeyman

2007-12-09, 05:52 PM

First of all, props to all of you who have posted so far. Especially you, Sam. I haven't ever seen a serious religion thread last list long without turning into a flame war.

Here is what I believe about Christianity (and religion in general), in a nutshell.

1. The Bible contains some of the most potent and the most useful wisdom that has ever existed in mankind.
1a. so does the Quran
2. The Bible also has some of the most dangerous and most divisive wisdom that has ever existed in mankind.
2a. So does the Quran
3. True Christians (and true Muslims) are some of the best people in the world.
3a. There are hardcore Atheists that are just as "good" (though, as Sam said, who are we to judge?)
4. Institutions have been corrupting the true spirit of any religion since their births.

I think Christianity had the potential to be one of the greatest things to ever happen to us. Think about it, how many times did Jesus repeat his message of nonviolence, and compassion, and brotherhood? However, as soon as it became controlled by an organization, it became destined to fail (or, we shall say, not realize its potential).

Here are some issues I think need to be addressed with Christianity as I understand it. I'm well aware that these questions have been answered in dozens of ways since Jesus' time, and that we (humans) will never find a satisfactory answer in our lifetimes, assuming one even exists (God could be a vast human conspiracy, we never know).

1. What God does with those who never hear the word of Salvation in their Earth lifetimes
2. Works vs. faith
3. Why is hell eternal? To use Sam's analogy, there's always summer school. Dante may have made up the idea of Purgatory, but it's not a horrible idea, and to me, it's infinitely more just than an eternal punishment.

I have a scenario to propose to you, and I want you all to consider it, Christians and nonbelievers alike. For the nonbelievers, you'll have to assume that Christianity is "right" for the time being.

Part 1: We have a little old lady on her deathbed. Let's call her Betsy. This lady is a completely and totally average American in all ways, except she doesn't believe in God. She's never been totally convinced of the theist arguments in her lifetime, so she's basically put the issue on the bookshelf, and lived her life as normal. She's still been a good person, though. Helping the needy, being compassionate, that sort of thing. She has an extremely devout Christian son. This son, not wanting to give up on his mother, calls for a priest in a last effort to save his mother's soul. Somehow, this priest manages to convince her of the validity of Christianity, and she dies later that day as a "saved" soul.

Part 2: On the other hand, we have Sam (spazdude222). Sam has been a Christian for essentially all of his life, and assuming a lack of some horrible life-altering event, will continue to be until his last day on Earth. As someone who has known him for most of his life, I can attest to the fact that he is also a good person. He's certainly no Ghandi, but neither am I, and neither is the old lady.

Ok, here's the million dollar question: does God see a fundamental difference between Sam and Betsy? Does it matter to God that Betsy only accepted him hours before her death, but Sam has been a faithful servant for life? Will Sam get a "better" heaven, or be treated better by God? To yet again reuse Sam's school metaphor, does the teacher favor those who get their work in before the deadline?

I wouldn't think so. Personally, it makes the most sense that an all-loving God would just be grateful that Betsy realized the "right way" in time. I would think that most people agree with this outlook?

Ok, I'm not quite done yet. If the last question got you a million, this one's for a billion dollars: do people get a chance to accept God after they die? I'm going to assume that time means pretty much nothing to God, so if there's no difference to God between Sam and Betsy (let's just assume Sam has 80 more years of being Christian then Betsy), than why is there a difference between Betsy, and Betsy's sister, who realized the "true path" when she died and came before God? If Betsy's sister were to really and truly accept God and His love after death, would she still be doomed to a life of eternal separation?

If Hell is just separation from God, that seems more cruel than dooming someone who has never accepted God.

This scenario brings up a few important things to consider. For all the Bible-thumpers who love to tell people that they go to hell if they don't accept Jesus before their death, which of these things seem more likely to you?

God's will seems completely back-asswards, and (even though time is supposed to mean nothing to him) cares whether or not you accept him now or if you accept him later or if you accept him after death
God's true word has been corrupted by the Church/other things throughout the years (after all, if people can just be saved after death, how would the churches make money?)

For those who dislike Christianity because of what they perceive as the illogical nature of God's will, and the juxtaposition of complete compassion and eternal damnation, ask yourself the same question. Wouldn't a God who gave people second chances be infinitely more loving and just than a God who only gave people one chance? Wouldn't this second chance answer all the questions nonbelievers have about a lack of proof?
Someone in here said that he couldn't fully believe in God because he needed more proof than that. Wouldn't this setup be much more compassionate and forgiving (the two most important Christian virtues) than something that only gave one chance?
One of the biggest complaints about Christianity is that people are asked to believe in something without proof, yet it's in our nature to only believe that which we have hard evidence for. Wouldn't this situation take care of that? If you're faced with God after your death, that's pretty strong proof that he exists. You can then accept his existence and his love, and be admitted into Heaven.

If you've skipped the entire (admittedly quite long) post just to get the bottom and figure out what the heck I'm talking about, this is probably my most important point about Christianity, and any religion in general: we are all human. If you judge someone because they aren't the same as you, you aren't being a good person. If you ignore the pleas of the needy, you aren't being a good Christian.

It doesn't matter what religion you are. Us humans always like to boast about how we're so advanced, and that we've mastered tools, and reason, and all sorts of other nifty stuff. If we are so closed-minded that we can't look past our small differences and unite through our common humanity, then why does it matter?

What's the point of having the virtues of humanity (compassion, forgiveness, reason) if we refuse to use them and insist on acting like 3 year olds in the sandbox fighting over a shovel? If we can't stop killing and hating each other because the color of our skin, or what we believe about the afterlife, than we might as well be ants.

firetire

2007-12-09, 06:08 PM

From my perspective, I am not choosing whether or not I will follow God; I can't even come to the conclusion that he exists! A lack of conclusive evidence leads me to not believe in any gods.

So, if God were truly fair, he would make his existence painstakingly obvious, and then we could all decide whether or not we will follow him.

Right now, I can't choose to follow something that I don't even believe exists. Evidence suggests that we don't have souls, there is no afterlife and the Bible is an exaggerated book written by many authors over a long period of time, with some inclusion of factual history but the extreme claims and miracles included are something that every culture did/has done with their stories.

SqueakyOnion

2007-12-09, 06:38 PM

1. What God does with those who never hear the word of Salvation in their Earth lifetimes.

I had this question answered by one of my best friends' father, who is a pastor at a Free-Methodist church.

I can't remember specifically where, but somewhere in the Bible, where it is describing the end times, it mentions that God will sit on his throne with people from each "tongue," or language. This implies that at least one person from every language will be saved. Thus, all those tribesmen/Godless Soviets/whoever hadn't heard of God before they died will be accepted into heaven in the same way a child would be. The child cannot make an informed decision for themselves, and neither can someone who has never heard of God.

If God sent people who had never heard of him to hell, I could in no way believe in him. I don't see how that could ever be "fair." Since God is by definition fair and just, this wouldn't work.

Right now, I'm pretty much undecided. Right now I kind of live my life by the idea that no matter what religion you are or are not, your lifetime is THE MOST IMPORTANT time of your entire existence. Whatever happens after your death is (according to many,) eternal. Thus, this life you are living now is of paramount importance. It's the only thing that's different. By sheer contrast, it is the only different, unique, and special time of your existence.

I've heard Christians say they can't wait to go meet God, that they're just sort of "fulfilling their service" here on earth, waiting to get to heaven. Sorry, I don't wanna live like that. Even if I believed I was going to heaven, I want to make my ONE life out of ALL ETERNITY to be amazing in every way it could be, and to last as long as possible.

So I guess it boils down to the "live life to the fullest you only have one life" cliche.

wickedbob

2007-12-09, 07:00 PM

I truly believe Christianity is the answer to world peace...but the world needs proof.

Can you give an explanation for this, please. It seems to be religion pretty high up there on the list of things that have caused pain and suffering over a long period of time, in my eyes. I do understand that to be your opinion, but I just want to know why. Do you get what I mean. Even if God came to earth and had a press conference showing a tour of heaven, there would still be nonbelievers or people that go against the grain. One thing will never make everybody happy it just doesn't happen. In my opinion the only true answer to world peace is acceptance which is an infinite number of things. That is just what I believe, may you believe in what you wish it is just interesting to hear peoples thoughts who think much different than you do.

James_Potter

2007-12-09, 08:15 PM

Well, I for one do not disagree with a single word that Jesus wrote.
That's because Jesus didn't write anything.
I imagine you knew that, but just thought I'd mention it for those who don't.

spazdude222

2007-12-09, 11:26 PM

ok, to quickly address Alex's point, a christian is a christian is a christian. When you except Christ doesn't matter, but my understanding of Christianity, is that it has to be before you die because when you die to go INSTANTLY to the place (heaven or hell) that coincides with your choice. So if you die and go to hell, yes you would cry out to God to save you, but it'd be too late. Like if a kid were told not to hit his sister, and then hit his sister, if he were to decide not to hit her while he was being punished for his bad choice, it'd be to late.

spazdude222

2007-12-09, 11:29 PM

I'm not saying I'm the only one who knows enough to answer questions, but I am itching to answer each one, so I'll address other questions brought up in earlier posts later. I'm at a study session for physics.

spazdude222

2007-12-09, 11:38 PM

If I tried believe in him and become a Christian, but I never really was able to decide for sure, would I go to heaven, or would he send me to hell, just because that is the way he made me?
Having doubts is fine. If you DON'T believe, you don't believe, but if you believe with reservations, or doubts, it's still belief. I often wonder if I'm actually right. i have no (as far as the human mind can perceive) proof. I don't think having a skeptical nature is an excuse for not believing but I would not say that questioning your belief because of your skeptical anture would be held against you.

BillyTheMountain

2007-12-10, 12:14 AM

I am a born again Christian, and have yet to be baptised, so technically I am not fully a Christian, but I am going to be baptized soon.

What it takes is giving your life to Christ, making sacrifices so that you live to honor God. To say the right things, and to do the right actions. That to me is to be a Christian.

Don't give anyone else the authority to make you a Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, etc. Baptize yourself. It's between you and GOD.

spazdude222

2007-12-10, 01:29 AM

Don't give anyone else the authority to make you a Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, etc. Baptize yourself. It's between you and GOD.
Well, like I said before, I don't think Baptism is necesary to be a Christian. It is an importand sacrement to Christians, but it's not a make or break you thing. The point of it though is to show people that you are not ashamed to be Christian, to profess your faith, so in a way it is important that there be people around when it's done.

spazdude222

2007-12-10, 01:33 AM

One more thing..

Why is going to heaven referred to as "having eternal life", when you would go to hell for eternity to?
Because hell is considered eternal death. i mean, it means life as in like "life that is worth having" or "life to the fullest" or something like that. Heaven or hell, you still EXIST forever, but in one you get to LIVE and the other would suck.

spazdude222

2007-12-10, 01:40 AM

2 things.
1. anyone else heard of christianarchy? it makes a good point about how the church has become so civilised and, well somewhat boring. christanarchy brings to light the fact that jesus was a rebel or protester not some boring old guy.
2. do you think people care what someone they've never met or will meet think about christanity?
1. no I haven't heard of it, but it sounds interesting. I think it's important to keep in mind that Jesus wasn't afraid to ruffle feathers to do what was right. Christians therefore should not be afraid to stand up for what's right. But we also need to be loving. God loves people, we love God, therefore, we love people.
2. I don't know who will and won't care about my beliefs, but obviously this thread has people posting in it and asking questions, so some people care. I only started this thread so that people who realize that they don't really know anything about Christianity can ask questions if they are curious.

mscalisi

2007-12-10, 03:03 AM

According to most forms of christianity (and probably other religions), he goes to hell, because god is apparently pretty vain (he probably thinks the bible is about him).

What happens to an atheist scientist who lived a moral life? He did not believe in god, yet he still lived a moral life. With he research he saved millions of innocent people from death and suffering. Does this great peaceful man go to hell even though he lived a moral life and saved millions?

mscalisi

2007-12-10, 03:16 AM

James_Potter

2007-12-10, 03:28 AM

Actually, I think the exact opposite. Following a set of rules, with the goal of "getting into heaven" says very little about a person's character other than they're willing to follow a carrot.

A person who lives an ethical, loving and selfless life without the expectation of "getting into heaven" is a person truely deserving of an eternal reward.

...actually, now that I think of it, a person who lives an ethical, loving and selfless life earns my respect regardless of his or her spiritual beliefs.
Yeah!
You're not supposed to be compassionate because you'll get something out of it...you're supposed to be compassionate because you care about other people.
There's a verse in the Qur'an about this actually, it says that your intentions are all that matter...what you actually feel inside, not necessarily your actions or words. If you honestly intend to do a good deed, but for whatever reason don't end up doing it, that's the same (in God's eyes) as doing a good deed. But if you're honestly intending to do something bad, like hurt someone, but don't do it, that's the same as actually doing it.

wickedbob

2007-12-10, 03:31 AM

Yeah!
You're not supposed to be compassionate because you'll get something out of it...you're supposed to be compassionate because you care about other people.
There's a verse in the Qur'an about this actually, it says that your intentions are all that matter...what you actually feel inside, not necessarily your actions or words. If you honestly intend to do a good deed, but for whatever reason don't end up doing it, that's the same (in God's eyes) as doing a good deed. But if you're honestly intending to do something bad, like hurt someone, but don't do it, that's the same as actually doing it.

I live a good life, but if that is how it works there is a god well.... I'm going to hell. I also don't really agree with that. To me actions speak louder than words. If there is a racist man who hates Jews (he thinks about becoming the next hitler and that hitler was a great man) , but goes out of his way to help them and be polite he is a good man because he is willing to set aside his beliefs to make this a better place. I don't think people thinking of stuff is the problem, the actions are.

James_Potter

2007-12-10, 03:36 AM

Oh I was wrong...if you intend to do a bad deed, but don't do it, then God records it as one good deed.
Here is the verse:
God ordered that the good and the bad deeds be written, and He then showed how. If somebody intends to do a good deed and he does not do it, then God will write for him a full good deed; and if he intends to do a good deed and actually did it, then God will write for him with Him from ten to seven hundred times to many more times (in reward): and if somebody intended to do a bad deed and he does not do it, then Allah will write a full good deed with Him, and if he intended to do it and actually did it, then Allah will write one bad deed.

Matt_V

2007-12-10, 03:39 AM

That's a really good point. I would have more repsect for someone who follows morals and tries to be a genuinly good person, just for the sake of making the world a better place, then I would for someone who only does that and follows God to get into heaven.

Do you think that a lot of people only follow God in order to get into heaven, even if they aren't 100% sure if they truly believe? Or because they are scared of going to hell because they aren't sure what they believe and they don't want to take any chances?

wickedbob

2007-12-10, 03:43 AM

Matt_V

2007-12-10, 03:46 AM

Oh I was wrong...if you intend to do a bad deed, but don't do it, then God records it as one good deed.

That doesn't make any sense. Is that saying that its good to intend to do bad things?

wickedbob

2007-12-10, 03:47 AM

Matt_V

2007-12-10, 03:48 AM

That is exactly how I feel, I was going to make a thread about something like that just the other day. http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=4HIsftOfhQk- real good video.

The url contained a malformed video id.

EDIT: http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=4HIsftOfhQk

had to take off the '-'

wickedbob

2007-12-10, 03:51 AM

Thanks, Matt.

James_Potter

2007-12-10, 03:56 AM

That doesn't make any sense. Is that saying that its good to intend to do bad things?
No, it's saying that intending to do bad things and then deciding that, because they are bad, you should not do them, is good.
But you can't make yourself intend something, that's the whole thing...it has to be pure, sincere intention, not because you have anything to gain from doing it.

James_Potter

2007-12-10, 03:57 AM

I was gonna say that sounded a bit ass-backwards before.
Yeah well, apparently I'm just trying to spread negative false rumours about Islam...oh well.

wickedbob

2007-12-10, 04:00 AM

Yeah well, apparently I'm just trying to spread negative false rumours about Islam...oh well.

Huh? I did not get that.

Matt_V

2007-12-10, 04:03 AM

No, it's saying that intending to do bad things and then deciding that, because they are bad, you should not do them, is good.
But you can't make yourself intend something, that's the whole thing...it has to be pure, sincere intention, not because you have anything to gain from doing it.

Oh ic, I was a bit confused because it didn't really specify why you don't do it. I thought it meant that your plan to do a bad deed just somehow failed. It should probably say something about changing your mind.

James_Potter

2007-12-10, 04:03 AM

Huh? I did not get that.
I was just kidding...never mind, it's not important anyway.

wickedbob

2007-12-10, 04:04 AM

I was just kidding...never mind, it's not important anyway.

Dude check mr I am 32% idiot, keep things in those terms.:p

BillyTheMountain

2007-12-10, 04:43 AM

That's because Jesus didn't write anything.
I imagine you knew that, but just thought I'd mention it for those who don't.

Are you saying he was an ILLITERATE carpenter?

Who handled his building contracts?

I thought Rome has a shopping list attributed to Jesus.

BillyTheMountain

2007-12-10, 04:47 AM

Well, like I said before, I don't think Baptism is necesary to be a Christian. It is an importand sacrement to Christians, but it's not a make or break you thing. The point of it though is to show people that you are not ashamed to be Christian, to profess your faith, so in a way it is important that there be people around when it's done.

show people that you are not ashamed to be Christian?!

show people that you are not ashamed to be Christian?!

Next thing you know, you'll have to get baptizeed HUMAN to show people that you are not ashamed to be Human.

Of course, humans act in such shameful ways, maybe you should be ashamed.

James_Potter

2007-12-10, 04:54 AM

show people that you are not ashamed to be Christian?!

show people that you are not ashamed to be Christian?!

Next thing you know, you'll have to get baptizeed HUMAN to show people that you are not ashamed to be Human.

Of course, humans act in such shameful ways, maybe you should be ashamed.
Christians do too, sometimes....

spazdude222

2007-12-10, 09:10 PM

Ok, as far as doing good to get into heaven versus doing good for the sake of doing good, this is my view as a Christian: Accepting Christ has nothing to do with deeds, but it will get you into heaven. If all you have to do is accept Christ, then your deeds (assuming you do any) would not be a way to "earn" heaven, they would be a by-product of your own desire to do good.

The whole REASON that Christians are encouraged to do good is basically to spread the joy they have. Being a Christian JUST to avoid hell is not the same as being a real Christian. Again, I want to make sure I say that God is the only one who can FULLY know who is a Christian besides a Christian himself, but if you "pray the prayer" to accept Christ because you're scared of hell, but nothing in your life changes, and you are the same person after that you were before, then I'd say your motive was probably selfish, which calls into question the authenticity of your faith. If however, you accept Christ because you are scared of hell, and GROW in your faith, and acknowledge that Christ is a new and necessary part of your life, then chances are you'll begin doing good deeds because Christ will have sent the holy spirit to guide you. You will WANT to do the good actions because you will be so full of joy. Obviously this is not always the case. Sometimes Christians become stagnant, where they simply don't listen to the holy spirit anymore. This is often the type of Christian people remember having come into contact with, and is often why Christians have a reputation for causing the world a crap load of greif and suffering or being really closed minded.

mscalisi

2007-12-10, 10:17 PM

Why does god care if you believe in him?

Ok, as far as doing good to get into heaven versus doing good for the sake of doing good, this is my view as a Christian: Accepting Christ has nothing to do with deeds, but it will get you into heaven. If all you have to do is accept Christ, then your deeds (assuming you do any) would not be a way to "earn" heaven, they would be a by-product of your own desire to do good.

The whole REASON that Christians are encouraged to do good is basically to spread the joy they have. Being a Christian JUST to avoid hell is not the same as being a real Christian. Again, I want to make sure I say that God is the only one who can FULLY know who is a Christian besides a Christian himself, but if you "pray the prayer" to accept Christ because you're scared of hell, but nothing in your life changes, and you are the same person after that you were before, then I'd say your motive was probably selfish, which calls into question the authenticity of your faith. If however, you accept Christ because you are scared of hell, and GROW in your faith, and acknowledge that Christ is a new and necessary part of your life, then chances are you'll begin doing good deeds because Christ will have sent the holy spirit to guide you. You will WANT to do the good actions because you will be so full of joy. Obviously this is not always the case. Sometimes Christians become stagnant, where they simply don't listen to the holy spirit anymore. This is often the type of Christian people remember having come into contact with, and is often why Christians have a reputation for causing the world a crap load of greif and suffering or being really closed minded.

phlegm

2007-12-10, 10:31 PM

Why does god care if you believe in him?

God doesn't care for everyone. There is no accepting Christ. Either you're chosen or you're not. Jesus died only for the sins of those who God already chose, so said John Calvin. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_atonement)

;) :confused:

Goats_On_Unicycles

2007-12-10, 10:48 PM

Dude, Calvin's just stupid as all get out.
Let's just forget about him, shall we? Go Unitarians!

OldDrone

2007-12-11, 12:02 AM

I am amazed that this post has not been bashed by all the skeptics. The constant use of the phrases "in my opinion" or "I think it means..." leads the reader to think that the authors don't really know what their gods would or would not do in any give situation, which seems reasonable, because there is no way to know the unknowable.

Would you agree that, in the eyes of the beholder, all religions are equally correct? I hope so, the Islamic, the Jew, the Christian, the ... all believe they are on the right and correct path. Who could blame them, it is their faith. One of them might even be your faith.

Since all of these religions have one thing in common, they are based on faith, they all have the same hurdle, fact. Without fact, you have superstition. No matter how reverently you believe, no matter how well the stories are told, no matter how many people believe it, if you can't prove it, it doesn't exists.

I am not saying there shouldn't be some form of teaching that helps guide new minds on a path that is peaceful, and some of the religions do that. What I am saying is that your arguments of what god wants are nonsense, because you'll never know. A more constructive argument on right and wrong can be done using philosophy. The answers may still never satisfy, but they are based on the world we live in, not some fantasy.

phlegm

2007-12-11, 01:35 AM

The answers may still never satisfy, but they are based on the world we live in, not some fantasy.

Which world would that be? I'm quite certain that many people live in a different world than I do. It's obvious to me that they are the one's living in fantasy. :p

spazdude222

2007-12-11, 01:37 AM

if you can't prove it, it doesn't exists.

I acctually agree with what you are saying almost completely. You can't KNOW things when it comes to religion, all you can do is belive things. We can search all we want for proof, but nothing will ever satisfy everyone. There will always be skeptics, there will always be non-believers. The one thing I want to say I disagree with totally is what I've quoted above, and my main point to refute your statement is love.

Perhaps you simply don't believe in love, but I have a feeling you not only believe in it, but enjoy having it, and long for it when you feel you don't posess it. I experience love daily. I love my family, my family loves me, I love my friends, they (hopefully) love me too. Love has no proof, love has no logical reason for existing, but it exists nonetheless. Just becasue something can't be proven does not mean it does not exist, it merely means it exists beyond the scope of human perception.

Goats_On_Unicycles

2007-12-11, 01:40 AM

peleschramm

2007-12-11, 01:42 AM

spazdude222

2007-12-11, 01:46 AM

God doesn't care for everyone. There is no accepting Christ. Either you're chosen or you're not. Jesus died only for the sins of those who God already chose, so said John Calvin. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_atonement)

;) :confused:
It's not that God chose anyone, he merely knew who would choose him. You might even say that the fact that he loves those that he knows will never choose his way is an excercise in futility. It only serves to re-emphasize His love for all people that Jesus told us to go out and teach everyone His way. He wants desperately for everyone to accpet the truth, even though he knows not everyone will. Certainly they will not accept it if they've never been exposed to it, which is why it's my job to offer up my beliefs, to explain them. As Jesus said, "He who has ears let him hear." If what I'm saying sounds like total garbage to you, you don't have to read. If you want to put your own ideas out there, by all means do so. I believe that God gave us free will so that we can use it.

spazdude222

2007-12-11, 01:51 AM

Theres quite a big difference though you see, between not passing and being tortured beyond belief for all eternity. if it were like that, instead of sending us to hell god would not advance us and simply have us be reborn with another chance, sort of like re-doing a grade.
Yes, I agree that my analogy is flawed. All analogies are flawed to some extent. I don't think that God can be explained, and I don't think that the way He works can be defined in human terms. I'm just trying to phrase it in a way that's a bit easier to understand.

OldDrone

2007-12-11, 03:08 AM

It's not that God chose anyone, he merely knew who would choose him. You might even say that the fact that he loves those that he knows will never choose his way is an excercise in futility. It only serves to re-emphasize His love for all people that Jesus told us to go out and teach everyone His way. He wants desperately for everyone to accpet the truth, even though he knows not everyone will. Certainly they will not accept it if they've never been exposed to it, which is why it's my job to offer up my beliefs, to explain them. As Jesus said, "He who has ears let him hear." If what I'm saying sounds like total garbage to you, you don't have to read. If you want to put your own ideas out there, by all means do so. I believe that God gave us free will so that we can use it.

Spazdude,
Your understanding of god's methods, his wants, and his limits, astound me! How could you possibly know anything about what god would do?

Your babble is total mind control puffing.

Every one of your statements should lead with a disclaimer, "in my opinion" or "I like to believe". I have no dislike for your beliefs that are clearly making your life happy, but don't preach as if you know what god wants.

monkeyman

2007-12-11, 04:15 AM

I love my friends, they (hopefully) love me too

Not really. Your parents pay us well.

Goats_On_Unicycles

2007-12-11, 05:06 AM

Not really. Your parents pay us well.
23892

James_Potter

2007-12-11, 08:54 PM

I think that this video is relevant to this thread...it's of Derren Brown, an atheist, a skeptic, and a magician, who is posing as an evangelist and using mentalism/hypnosis techniques to do the same thing that real evangelists do, to convert atheists into believers.
Instant Conversion part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Sq-YUdq1OI), and part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DylNVUN_3I).

unisteve

2007-12-11, 10:10 PM

Has someone already mentioned the relgious use and effect of psychedelic drugs? Oh shi--

Religion, faith, spirituality, whatever--it's all personal and subjective. Do what is fulfilling and makes you happy.

I believe in God, but not in the traditional church sense. More like in The Big Lebowski. The Dude abides.

OldDrone

2007-12-12, 12:19 AM

I believe in God, but not in the traditional church sense. More like in The Big Lebowski. The Dude abides.

According to the Spazdude, and other people who are believers in the know of what god wants and doesn't want, you are going to hell. Sorry about that Dude.

Mark Twain said, "Heaven for the ambiance, Hell for the company". Seems we’ll be in good company.

The saddest part about religion is that people get so wrapped up in it that they believe there’s is the only one true religion. This seems to be universal to all religions. Each religion has some reasoning as to why their religion makes more sense, or is more valid. How could so many religions either be right or wrong?

OldDrone

2007-12-12, 12:30 AM

I acctually agree with what you are saying almost completely. You can't KNOW things when it comes to religion, all you can do is belive things. We can search all we want for proof, but nothing will ever satisfy everyone. There will always be skeptics, there will always be non-believers. The one thing I want to say I disagree with totally is what I've quoted above, and my main point to refute your statement is love.

Perhaps you simply don't believe in love, but I have a feeling you not only believe in it, but enjoy having it, and long for it when you feel you don't posess it. I experience love daily. I love my family, my family loves me, I love my friends, they (hopefully) love me too. Love has no proof, love has no logical reason for existing, but it exists nonetheless. Just becasue something can't be proven does not mean it does not exist, it merely means it exists beyond the scope of human perception.

I disagree with your assumption that Love can not be proven. Love is an emotion, a feeling. It is universally understood, even if its affects on us are mysterious. As for proving loves existence, it might be easier to look at Anger. Anger is also an emotion, a feeling. When someone is angry, you know really pissed off, do you really ever question if that person is angry? So are you saying that you can't prove someone is angry? Love is the same situation; you know when someone is in love by their actions.

Now what is love would be a fantastic thread.

spazdude222

2007-12-12, 02:27 AM

Spazdude,
Your understanding of god's methods, his wants, and his limits, astound me! How could you possibly know anything about what god would do?

Your babble is total mind control puffing.

Every one of your statements should lead with a disclaimer, "in my opinion" or "I like to believe". I have no dislike for your beliefs that are clearly making your life happy, but don't preach as if you know what god wants.
It seems to me that you've misread the title of the thread. I'm using this as a place to defend and explain my beliefs. I decided that trying to threadjack other peoples conversations that were obviously meant to talk about their beliefs was unfair, so I started my own thread to show what I believe true Christianity is. I've already conceded to your point that no one can KNOW about God, so I assumed you realized that my "babble" was all based on my belief in what I know.

Now that I've left that point as a given, allow me to adress your question as to how I know what God would do. I know what God is like through the Bible, which I believe to be the true word of the Living God; he is unchanging, infinite, loving, faithful, just, honest and kind. Becasue he is Honest, i trust that what he says he will cary out, will be carried out. Thus, when I am told that he loves everyone and longs to spend eternity with each person he created, I can't imagine that the concept of predestination is the way Calvin described it. I don't think that it is God choosing some people over others, but rather that it is God knowing who will choose Him.

Also, in reference to your point on love and anger being proven by the actions they invoke, I must then believe that God exists because of the actions he invokes. I know that I often do things I don't really want to do because in my finite ability to understand, God's plan makes little to no sense, but after I obey, I can usually see why He had me do whatever it was he called me to do. If love is proven by the pleasure it causes, and anger by the pain it causes, I firmly believe that God is proven by the joy he has instilled in me.

BillyTheMountain

2007-12-14, 01:09 AM

OldDrone believes lots of things he has no direct experience about. Dinosaurs, evolution, his wife's being faithful to him, his friend will go to bat for him AGAIN.

Lots of what we believe is submission to authority, whether its scientific authority or religious authority.

Then there's what we believe that is our direct experience: our wife loves us, our GOD loves us, the food tastes good, the milk is sour, and where to place a comma.

JJuggle

2007-12-14, 12:18 PM

our GOD loves us
My favorite thing about GOD's love is that it is, apparently, equally in evidence when a child is put in the hands of a pedophile as when it is in the bosom of a loving family.

spazdude222

2007-12-14, 06:52 PM

My favorite thing about GOD's love is that it is, apparently, equally in evidence when a child is put in the hands of a pedophile as when it is in the bosom of a loving family.
God doesn't cause bad things to happen. Bad things happen because God doesn't control all aspects of our lives, he gave us free will, and the choices of the individual lead to evil in the world. With out bad, good cannot be fully known. Child molestation is no more God's fault than it is the child's. It is the fault of the sick person who abused the child.

James_Potter

2007-12-14, 06:56 PM

God doesn't cause bad things to happen. Bad things happen because God doesn't control all aspects of our lives, he gave us free will, and the choices of the individual lead to evil in the world. With out bad, good cannot be fully known. Child molestation is no more God's fault than it is the child's. It is the fault of the sick person who abused the child.
So in that case, you can't look at good things in the world and say that it's because God loves you. You have just proven that there's no way to see or experience God's love.

phlegm

2007-12-14, 07:19 PM

God doesn't cause bad things to happen. Bad things happen because God doesn't control all aspects of our lives...

You're oversimplifying the problem of evil. Why do natural disasters happen?

spazdude222

2007-12-14, 09:20 PM

So in that case, you can't look at good things in the world and say that it's because God loves you. You have just proven that there's no way to see or experience God's love.
Right, it's like this: If you get something from your mom as a present, and then it get's stolen by a third party, it's not you mom who stole it or gave it to you... Oh wait... hmmm

Saying that God doesn't cause bad things doesn't eliminate the possibility of him causing good things. That argument lacks any logical flow.

spazdude222

2007-12-14, 09:37 PM

You're oversimplifying the problem of evil. Why do natural disasters happen?
I've oversimplified a lot of things in this thread. I'm not trying to lead a deep philosophical/theological discussion group. I'm trying to help other people understand what and why I believe. I'm merely dong my best to awnser questions the way I understand them.

Here's my best stab at the natural disaster's question: I believe that natural disasters are a by product of sin in the world. Basically, my belief is that when sin entered the world, it entered more than just the human soul, I believe it permeated every aspect of the earth. Just like stress in a human body can cause biological problems (headaches, insomnia, ulcers, grey hair, acne) I believe that sin causes stress to the earth, causing it to...well, "malfunction." I realize that SCIENTIFICALLY an earthquake/hurricane/tornado/tsunami/volcano isn't a malfunction, but I'm talking about the difference between the world before and after sin entered it, not the difference between what the earth is usually like, and what it's like when natural disasters occur.

mscalisi

2007-12-14, 09:48 PM

I'm fairly certain that "natural disasters" occured long before humans existed. Perhaps the minerals and other elements were sinning?

I've oversimplified a lot of things in this thread. I'm not trying to lead a deep philosophical/theological discussion group. I'm trying to help other people understand what and why I believe. I'm merely dong my best to awnser questions the way I understand them.

Here's my best stab at the natural disaster's question: I believe that natural disasters are a by product of sin in the world. Basically, my belief is that when sin entered the world, it entered more than just the human soul, I believe it permeated every aspect of the earth. Just like stress in a human body can cause biological problems (headaches, insomnia, ulcers, grey hair, acne) I believe that sin causes stress to the earth, causing it to...well, "malfunction." I realize that SCIENTIFICALLY an earthquake/hurricane/tornado/tsunami/volcano isn't a malfunction, but I'm talking about the difference between the world before and after sin entered it, not the difference between what the earth is usually like, and what it's like when natural disasters occur.

James_Potter

2007-12-14, 09:56 PM

I've oversimplified a lot of things in this thread. I'm not trying to lead a deep philosophical/theological discussion group. I'm trying to help other people understand what and why I believe.
Why do you care what other people think?
Most people don't believe what you do, and you don't believe the same way most other people do, it shouldn't matter..if your beliefs make you happy, that should be enough....

James_Potter

2007-12-14, 09:56 PM

Right, it's like this: If you get something from your mom as a present, and then it get's stolen by a third party, it's not you mom who stole it or gave it to you... Oh wait... hmmm

Saying that God doesn't cause bad things doesn't eliminate the possibility of him causing good things. That argument lacks any logical flow.
What I'm saying is that there is no hard evidence showing that God does good things in your life, and there is no hard evidence that shows God does bad things in your life. If you're saying that God does not cause the bad things to happen, then how can you know if God does the good things that happen?

spazdude222

2007-12-14, 09:56 PM

I'm fairly certain that "natural disasters" occured long before humans existed. Perhaps the minerals and other elements were sinning?
Perhaps, or perhaps humans have existed longer than we think, or perhaps the earth is younger than we think. Perhaps there's no way to know?

Perhaps I should reiterate that I'm not trying to proove anything, I'm just explaining things that I believe. I feel like everytime I post, someone comes to try and refute what I'm saying. Are you trying to get me to change my beliefs? Are you trying to discredit what I'm saying? They are my beliefs, and I'm not trying to push them on anyone.

phlegm

2007-12-14, 09:59 PM

I've oversimplified a lot of things in this thread. I'm not trying to lead a deep philosophical/theological discussion group. I'm trying to help other people understand what and why I believe. I'm merely dong my best to awnser questions the way I understand them.

Whether you acknowledge them or not, there are deep philosophical/theological reasons why you believe what you do. Why ignore them?

mscalisi

2007-12-14, 10:04 PM

Or not.

Scientists (who are natural skeptics) are fairly certain of lots of things, including how long people have been around, and when changes ("disasters" if you will) in the earth have occurred.

Has it ever occurred to you to observe the world and come to conclusions about it rather than coming to a conclusion first and then trying to fit everything else around it?

Unfortunately, when you create a thread, you don't always get to control the direction of the conversation. If you post what others believe to be BS, you're going to get called on it.

What is the point of creating a thread to "explain your beliefs" if you're not hoping to sway people to your point of view?

Perhaps, or perhaps humans have existed longer than we think, or perhaps the earth is younger than we think. Perhaps there's no way to know?

Perhaps I should reiterate that I'm not trying to proove anything, I'm just explaining things that I believe. I feel like everytime I post, someone comes to try and refute what I'm saying. Are you trying to get me to change my beliefs? Are you trying to discredit what I'm saying? They are my beliefs, and I'm not trying to push them on anyone.

spazdude222

2007-12-14, 10:05 PM

What I'm saying is that there is no hard evidence showing that God does good things in your life, and there is no hard evidence that shows God does bad things in your life. If you're saying that God does not cause the bad things to happen, then how can you know if God does the good things that happen?
I just believe. I personally KNOW but I also know that no one else can KNOW the way I know. For all I know, I'm a brain, sitting in a jar with electrodes hooked up to different parts of me, and there's a crazy guy stimulating the right parts of my brain at the right time to make me think that I exist as a physical being. I really am not trying to sound rude, James, but you keep coming back with "there's no way to know," a point to which I've ALREADY AGREED. If you are waiting for me to proove something, go away, it isn't going to happen, you obviously are not in a state of mind where you want to believe what I believe. I'm convicted of the Existence of God and the truth of Jesus Christ as my savior because of my experiences as a person, and I'm trying to help anyone who wants to understand what Christians believe do so. Your argument is basically saying, if you aren't part of the problem, you aren't part of the solution either, which doesn't make any sense to me.

unisteve

2007-12-14, 10:07 PM

Perhaps, or perhaps humans have existed longer than we think, or perhaps the earth is younger than we think. Perhaps there's no way to know?
Don't fuck with science, man. That's not going to help your case.

A religious faith is about that--faith. There is a point at which logic breaks down when explaining why you believe. Kierkegaard talked about a leap of faith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leap_of_faith). You might enjoy reading about him. He was one of the most reasonable God-believing philosophers I was introduced to in my high school philosophy class.

phlegm

2007-12-14, 10:08 PM

"explain your beliefs"

Isn't that the whole point of the internet? To express to everyone in the world why you are special and unique, even though you're really not and no one really cares. :p

James_Potter

2007-12-14, 10:11 PM

I just believe. I personally KNOW but I also know that no one else can KNOW the way I know. I really am not trying to sound rude, James, but you keep coming back with "there's no way to know," a point to which I've ALREADY AGREED. If you are waiting for me to proove something, go away, it isn't going to happen, you obviously are not in a state of mind where you want to believe what I believe. I'm convicted of the Existence of God and the truth of Jesus Christ as my savior because of my experiences as a person, and I'm trying to help anyone who wants to understand what Christians believe do so.
That's cool with me, but I assumed you started a thread for discussion purposes...which is what I'm doing, discussing! You say what you believe, I find flaws in your beliefs, you defend, I attack again, goes back and forth, that's how real people talk man.
Anyway, since you don't want to sway other people, and don't want other people to sway you, my final statement will be to repeat something I already wrote:
Why do you care what other people think?
Most people don't believe what you do, and you don't believe the same way most other people do, it shouldn't matter..if your beliefs make you happy, that should be enough....

mscalisi

2007-12-14, 10:19 PM

Wait, you mean I'm not! No one cares!! Goodbye cruel world!!!

Isn't that the whole point of the internet? To express to everyone in the world why you are special and unique, even though you're really not and no one really cares. :p

mscalisi

2007-12-14, 10:24 PM

I believe you took the blue pill and you're trying to convince everyone else that you took the red one and you're trying to show them the way now that you "know" the truth.

I just believe. I personally KNOW but I also know that no one else can KNOW the way I know. For all I know, I'm a brain, sitting in a jar with electrodes hooked up to different parts of me, and there's a crazy guy stimulating the right parts of my brain at the right time to make me think that I exist as a physical being. I really am not trying to sound rude, James, but you keep coming back with "there's no way to know," a point to which I've ALREADY AGREED. If you are waiting for me to proove something, go away, it isn't going to happen, you obviously are not in a state of mind where you want to believe what I believe. I'm convicted of the Existence of God and the truth of Jesus Christ as my savior because of my experiences as a person, and I'm trying to help anyone who wants to understand what Christians believe do so. Your argument is basically saying, if you aren't part of the problem, you aren't part of the solution either, which doesn't make any sense to me.

BillyTheMountain

2007-12-15, 01:42 AM

I disagree with your assumption that Love can not be proven. Love is an emotion, a feeling. It is universally understood, even if its affects on us are mysterious. As for proving loves existence, it might be easier to look at Anger. Anger is also an emotion, a feeling. When someone is angry, you know really pissed off, do you really ever question if that person is angry? So are you saying that you can't prove someone is angry? Love is the same situation; you know when someone is in love by their actions.

Now what is love would be a fantastic thread.

Have you ever heard of ACTING?

My favorite thing about GOD's love is that it is, apparently, equally in evidence when a child is put in the hands of a pedophile as when it is in the bosom of a loving family.

You Are Sick

And you are in submission to scientific authority.

JJuggle

2007-12-15, 02:15 AM

Have you ever heard of ACTING?You Are Sick
Reports of my sickness are greatly exaggerated.

Matt_V

2007-12-15, 03:19 PM

James_Potter

2007-12-15, 06:00 PM

If there was an atheist that learned all about the bible, and he started teaching other people about it with the intention of converting them to christians even though he wasn't one himself, would God still send him to hell even if he had converted hundreds of people to Christianity?
According to the Bible, yeah. Actually, according to the Bible, Gandhi is in Hell. According to certain interpretations of Christianity, any of the following people are in Hell (and reasons why):
Martin Luther King, Jr (black)
John F Kennedy (Catholic)
John Lennon (atheist)
Anne Frank (Jewish)
Albert Einstein (Jewish)
Benjamin Franklin (atheist)
Bob Marley (Rastafarian)
And probably many more.

spazdude222

2007-12-15, 07:56 PM

This scenario will sound weird, but I want to see what SpazDude thinks of it.

If there was an atheist that learned all about the bible, and he started teaching other people about it with the intention of converting them to christians even though he wasn't one himself, would God still send him to hell even if he had converted hundreds of people to Christianity?
That's something that I really have no idea about. Like you said, it's weird, and I can't imagine it would acctually happen, but if I did, I would not have the biblical knowledge to give an informed opinion. My UNINFORMED opinion would be that yes, he would still go to hell, because if he himself did not believe that what he taught was true, then his motives could not possibly be the salvation of the souls of other people, thus the act of teaching about the Bible, as far as the motive of his heart and mind is concerned, would be to decieve people. I believe that motives are as important in judging sin as sinning. As Jesus said, if you even think lustfully about a girl, you've commited adultery in your heart, and if you hate another person, you're guilty of murder.

I think what people have the hardest time understanding is the concept of how high God's standards are. God is perfect, and as such, he only allows perfection to commune with him. That sucks though, right? God is a total douche, right? No one is perfect, so he set us up to fail, right? Wrong, he knew his standards were unattainable, so instead of lowering his standards, he devised a way for us to attain them. He became Jesus, a man, who loved us enough to die in our place. Through Jesus' Power over sin and death, people can become perfect in God's eyes.

I think that the thing that most stands in the way of people understanding and believing is human pride. The average person is so freaking caught up in all the good things they've done, and so unwilling to face up to the sin in their lives, that they blame God for having high standards. The thng about believing in the Christian faith, is you have to accept that you, as far as perfection goes, are a terrible person. I may have a 50 watt bulb, and someone else may have a 15 watt bulb, and a third person has a 100 watt bulb, but when compared to the sun, we might as well have a glow worm.

spazdude222

2007-12-15, 07:58 PM

That's cool with me, but I assumed you started a thread for discussion purposes...which is what I'm doing, discussing! You say what you believe, I find flaws in your beliefs, you defend, I attack again, goes back and forth, that's how real people talk man.
Anyway, since you don't want to sway other people, and don't want other people to sway you, my final statement will be to repeat something I already wrote:
You are right. I'm sorry for getting so upset. I like that you are asking questions, because it forces me to think about what I believe, and why. I was havving a bad day (my car was broken into, and my stereo stolen) and I apologize for allowing that to affect my judgement and assesment of the situation. I realize you were not attacking me, and I'm sorry for being so defensive.

OldDrone

2007-12-15, 08:06 PM

spazdude222

2007-12-15, 08:41 PM

Spazdude,
You started this tread to tell us what you believe. I think most of have gotten your point, you whole heartedly believe your interpretation of your bible and everyone else is somewhat wrong. I believe that with your firm, unwavering, convictions, you are the only person that believes what you believe.

Many so called Christians believe something similar; you probably assume that if they believe enough similar thoughts they are good Christians too. But every one of these Christians believes something different, even if it just a minor point, here and there. So if you are willing to except these Christians as true believers, knowing that they have different beliefs, what is stopping you from believing in other religions?

Also,
We have heard a lot of your beliefs. I for one am happy that they are filling you with happiness (no joke). There are way too many angry religious people.

What I am wondering is what are these experiences that have caused you to have such great conviction?
As far as believing other religions, the reason i can accept differences in other christians' faith and not huge inte-religionary differences, is that I believe there are only a few things VITAL to being christian. There are a few points in the Bible that I feel are "must believes" and that a lot of the rest of it are "really good advice" points, that some people may feel more strongly about. That is, some things are necessary to be a Christian, and others are only needed to reach your potential as a Christian leader.

As far as life experiences go, I don't know if I can explain them in a way you'll really relate to. Some things that I attribute to God are: when I was little I wanted a little brother more than anything, and I prayed about it daily and nightly, and then my mom got pregnant, and nine moneths later, it was a little brother. I realize the probability was 50/50, but I really do believe that God intervened. Also, the period in my life when i was the most unhappy, was when, about a year and a half ago, I had stopped going to my old church and been "de-churched" for about 6 months. I basically started to ignore the Holy Spirit in my life. When i got plugged into a new church, I could tell that God was the one who led me there. I've suffered from low self esteem for a lot of my adolescent life, and only recently have aI started overcoming it, and all I did as far as therepy or counseling is concerned is read a verse, that helped me realize that regardless what people do or don't think of me, I matter to God. I now find my value in Him. People, in and of ourselves, are worthless, but because God loves us, we are priceless. When I was young, I went to Yellowstone National Park, and I cannot explain the impact it had on me. Even at such a young age (5 or 6) I felt a sense of awe that I don't believe can be explained merely by evolution and the shifting of tectonic plates. The mountains, the gysers, the animals... It was amazing. Those are the most memorable events that have shaped my beliefs.

BillyTheMountain

2007-12-15, 09:37 PM

When I was young, I went to Yellowstone National Park, and I cannot explain the impact it had on me. Even at such a young age (5 or 6) I felt a sense of awe that I don't believe can be explained merely by evolution and the shifting of tectonic plates. The mountains, the gysers, the animals... It was amazing. Those are the most memorable events that have shaped my beliefs.

Holy Jesus!! That was a close call. Thank GOD no one introduced to Emerson and Thoreau (who rejected the arid confines of Scripture), or you might have become a nature mystic!!!

Close call!!!!!

Yellowstone is dangerous just for that fact! Good Christians don't go there!

James_Potter

2007-12-15, 10:06 PM

But do you really think that a connection with a higher being, life force, or cosmic conciousness justifies sending millions of people to suffer for eternity?
And how do you know that this impact it had on you wasn't the force of Mother Earth, Gaia, or the Dharma, or Brahma?
What I'm saying now is that you can believe in a lot of things based on those experiences, many of which are not as sadistic and cruel to innocent people as Christianity...reminds me of Huckleberry Finn, who knew that if he helped Jim escape, Huckleberry would go to Hell and suffer forever, but if he didn't help Jim escape, then Jim would be captured and tortured or killed. So Huckleberry chose to help Jim escape and thereby condemn himself to Hell...but at least Jim would be okay.

spazdude222

2007-12-15, 11:22 PM

innocent people
Here's why I disagree with you every time you talk about God being sadistic. I personally don't believe anyone is innocent (see my earlier post about light bulbs, or the one about throwing rocks to the moon). I don't believe that people are naturally good. Man, when left to his own devices, will choose evil. I wonder if you've ever read The Lord of the Flies. I really liked that book, and I think (whether or not Golding meant to) it does a good job at showcasing the true nature of humans. Cultural contexts lead people to do good, but doing good doesn't make you good any more than doing a girl makes you a girl.

James_Potter

2007-12-15, 11:34 PM

Here's why I disagree with you every time you talk about God being sadistic. I personally don't believe anyone is innocent (see my earlier post about light bulbs, or the one about throwing rocks to the moon). I don't believe that people are naturally good. Man, when left to his own devices, will choose evil. I wonder if you've ever read The Lord of the Flies. I really liked that book, and I think (whether or not Golding meant to) it does a good job at showcasing the true nature of humans. Cultural contexts lead people to do good, but doing good doesn't make you good any more than doing a girl makes you a girl.
But then why is anyone who does not "accept Jesus" sent to Hell?
Gandhi, for example. He was a Hindu, and (by your own logic, as expressed in previous posts) must now be in Hell because of it, despite all the good he has done in the world.
Unless, of course, you think Gandhi was evil.

dudewithasock

2007-12-16, 12:30 AM

Doing good doesn't make you good any more than doing a girl makes you a girl.

Sorry to interrupt the conversation, but that's an awesome statement and is now sigged.

spazdude222

2007-12-16, 12:32 AM

But then why is anyone who does not "accept Jesus" sent to Hell?
Gandhi, for example. He was a Hindu, and (by your own logic, as expressed in previous posts) must now be in Hell because of it, despite all the good he has done in the world.
Unless, of course, you think Gandhi was evil.
Do you even read my posts before responding? I'm not saying everyone DOES evil things, I'm saying everyone is evil by nature. At some point Gandhi sinned. At some point in his life, he did something, or thought something that was evil. He may have been really close to being good, he may have DONE lots of good things, but that doesn't make him perfect, that doesn't earn him heaven. Christianity isn't about deeds. I can't express that enough, you keep putting forth these examples of people who DID lots of good things. Salvation isn't about whether or not you do good, it's about whether or not you love God. Basically, what you seem to be misunderstanding, is that it's not about us, it's about God, and God's love for us.

dudewithasock

2007-12-16, 12:34 AM

But then why is anyone who does not "accept Jesus" sent to Hell?
Gandhi, for example. He was a Hindu, and (by your own logic, as expressed in previous posts) must now be in Hell because of it, despite all the good he has done in the world.
Unless, of course, you think Gandhi was evil.

Mikael, I don't think Sam has said that just because you don't go to heaven you are inherently evil. According to Sam, like it or not, God is the supreme One, and we gotta play by his rules, even though we might not understand why, or sometimes even what those rules entail. Gandhi was not evil, no one has claimed that he is, however despite doing good deeds and supporting worthy causes (in most people's eyes, mine included), he didn't play by God's rules.

The way I'm interpreting what Sam is saying is that you can whine about God being fair and try and make new rules that make more sense to you, but that doesn't change the fact that they're still the wrong rules.

James_Potter

2007-12-16, 12:40 AM

Do you even read my posts before responding? I'm not saying everyone DOES evil things, I'm saying everyone is evil by nature. At some point Gandhi sinned. At some point in his life, he did something, or thought something that was evil. He may have been really close to being good, he may have DONE lots of good things, but that doesn't make him perfect, that doesn't earn him heaven. Christianity isn't about deeds. I can't express that enough, you keep putting forth these examples of people who DID lots of good things. Salvation isn't about whether or not you do good, it's about whether or not you love God. Basically, what you seem to be misunderstanding, is that it's not about us, it's about God, and God's love for us.
That first part is true, he was like a nymphomaniac kinda...racist too.
But anyway.
That's another reason Christianity can be considered an ugly religion, because God doesn't care if you're good or not, She cares if you say you love Her. In my opinion, sucking up is not something to get rewarded for, if you continue to do bad things. People should get rewarded for living a moral life, and the Bible in my opinion corrupts the meaning of "good" and "evil" saying that everyone is evil. Says who? I am not an evil person. I've done drugs, I've said bad words, I've told lies, and the Bible is the only thing that says any of those are bad (well, authority figures too sometimes, but only because they read the Bible). Why would God give certain plants psychedelic properties in creating them, if She specifically wanted people to not use them? It's like saying that God put dinosaur bones underground to test our faith...it's like a trap, or a trick question. It's like God is trying to fool us into making the wrong move, and suddenly not getting salvation.

BillyTheMountain

2007-12-16, 03:19 PM

James,

It's time you accepted the harsh reality.

Science has conducted experiments and proven the existence of an afterlife and hell.

They have been burying people with their cell phones and chargers. Several days later, 911 calls inevitably come in, and the GPS indicates these calls are in fact coming from Hell.

Proof positive. So please, lets end this discussion and move on.

Billy

mscalisi

2007-12-16, 07:02 PM

If Ghandi didn't go to heaven, then I don't want to go either.
I have no interest in spending eternity with such a vain god.

Do you even read my posts before responding? I'm not saying everyone DOES evil things, I'm saying everyone is evil by nature. At some point Gandhi sinned. At some point in his life, he did something, or thought something that was evil. He may have been really close to being good, he may have DONE lots of good things, but that doesn't make him perfect, that doesn't earn him heaven. Christianity isn't about deeds. I can't express that enough, you keep putting forth these examples of people who DID lots of good things. Salvation isn't about whether or not you do good, it's about whether or not you love God. Basically, what you seem to be misunderstanding, is that it's not about us, it's about God, and God's love for us.

Goats_On_Unicycles

2007-12-16, 07:10 PM

Hell actually sounds fun.
Cuz that's were all the rock 'n roll musicians and Edward Abbey are gonna be.

James_Potter

2007-12-16, 07:37 PM

Hell actually sounds fun.
Cuz that's were all the rock 'n roll musicians and Edward Abbey are gonna be.
As Mark Twain said, "Heaven for the ambience, Hell for the company."

cathwood

2007-12-16, 08:05 PM

Some things that I attribute to God are: when I was little I wanted a little brother more than anything, and I prayed about it daily and nightly, and then my mom got pregnant, and nine moneths later, it was a little brother. I realize the probability was 50/50, but I really do believe that God intervened.

Why are you so special that god will grant you a little brother (for no good othr than that was what you wanted) when he does not grant world peace or stop children starving to death or being abused no matter how much they might pray for it?

cool-bananas

2007-12-16, 10:37 PM

Why are you so special that god will grant you a little brother (for no good othr than that was what you wanted) when he does not grant world peace or stop children starving to death or being abused no matter how much they might pray for it?

Because it is hard to grant those things when he is only a figure of peoples imagination. He doesnt exist, not real, false, nada, zip.

hehe I am probably going to get flammed for this but ah well.

James_Potter

2007-12-16, 10:39 PM

Because it is hard to grant those things when he is only a figure of peoples imagination. He doesnt exist, not real, false, nada, zip.
hehe I am probably going to get flammed for this but ah well.
I think that was Cathy's whole point...as for God not existing, I would have to disagree, but only because I have a personal, weird view of what "God" is.
So, carry on.

cool-bananas

2007-12-16, 10:42 PM

everyone else gets to post their views just posting mine.

James_Potter

2007-12-16, 10:43 PM

One of my friends once wrote a, thing, and I think it is very wise, so I will reproduce it here:

The old Gods are dead (or dying) and people are searching/asking 'what will the new myth/religion be of this "unified" earth as of one being?' But you can't predict things like that (no more than you can predict tonight's dream) because mythology is not an ideology - its not projected from the brain.

When someone asks - do you believe in God? I think - well, I believe in Man. We are God in the end - we created all of the religions/myths/and explinations for our world - we created ourselves. God is really just a state of mind - a metaphor. Ultimately 'God' is our word for whatever transcends all thought – unknown and unknowable. Everything we have created is known through pairs of opposites: up and down, good and evil, male and female… God is that which lies above all these categories of thought – which escapes language’s ability to capture. God is what’s ultimately mysterious.

Do I believe in Christianity? I believe every religion is true when it’s understood metaphorically. It’s when you read religions for their factual denotation (like you read a newspaper) instead of their connotation (like you read - or rather deconstruct - a poem) that you have a problem.

Half of the people in the world think their Gods are facts – we call them theists. The other half thinks God is a falsehood – we call them atheists. Then there’s the select few who understand that religion is not a script or how-to book. God is a metaphor. All creation myths are metaphors. The Kingdom Come is a metaphor. The miracles of Jesus and the miraculous events in the life story of Siddhartha are metaphors. Reincarnation is a metaphor. Astrology, alchemy, prophesy… Dragons, Djinn, ogres… Santa Clause! If you think of these things as literal falsehoods then you’re missing the point, and if you think of them as literal facts then you’re a nut.

With the scientific discoveries of the past centuries destroying the limited cosmology/biology of the Bible, the philosophical movements focusing on rationalism, etc. I can only wonder if the fundamentalist movement focusing on the literal interpretation of the Bible is an... overcompensation. Instead of creating new myths, investing meaning in new "affect images" a significant number of people are clinging as stubbornly as ever to our socially inherited and admittedly outdated myths. The connotative meaning has been largely overshadowed, and the denotative meaning is given the full spotlight. 'God did say this, and homosexuality is wrong. It's there, word for word, in the Bible. Love your neighbor, or God wil smite you. Pray every night, or you're a filthy Pagan sinner. And, goddamnit, belive in the Lord or you're going to Hell.'

Science, religion, and politics. The lines between them are fine, but undeniably there.

BillyTheMountain

2007-12-16, 11:00 PM

It’s when you read religions for their factual denotation (like you read a newspaper) instead of their connotation (like you read - or rather deconstruct - a poem) that you have a problem.

If you read a newspaper for facts, you have a BIG problem.

James_Potter

2007-12-16, 11:02 PM

What do you mean, everyone knows the news is the most reliable source of information.

http://employeecomedy.typepad.com/cheneyrobot.jpg

OldDrone

2007-12-16, 11:11 PM

If you read a newspaper for facts, you have a BIG problem.

BTM,
Where do you get your news from then, FOX TV?

Mr. Potter's post was very insightful, and all you can do is disrespect reporters. I had expected better from you, or are you caving in to reason and just flailing out of habit?

OldDrone

2007-12-16, 11:23 PM

The way I'm interpreting what Sam is saying is that you can whine about God being fair and try and make new rules that make more sense to you, but that doesn't change the fact that they're still the wrong rules.

Dudewithasock,
The part about what Spazdude is saying that is so lamentable is that he "knows" what god's rules are, because he read them in a book, or was taught them by another person and he believes that what he knows is infallible. What malarkey. No one knows the unknowable, not the Christian’s, the Jews, the Islamic, or even Spazdude. Most religions have some pretty decent ideals, but to say that they are the one and only set of correct rules is nonsense.

If there was one and only one set of rules, then why are there so many different versions of the Christian bible?

uni57

2007-12-17, 12:45 AM

Hell actually sounds fun.
Cuz that's were all the rock 'n roll musicians and Edward Abbey are gonna be.Let's all get together in Hell in a hundred years (give everyone here time to die) and have a party! Sam and Kevin won't be able to join us, but we should still have a big turnout. Let's rock the house!

Event: HELL PARTY 2107
Location: Hell
Date: 12/16/2107
Time: 7 PM GMT-5 Earth time

dudewithasock

2007-12-17, 03:48 AM

If there was one and only one set of rules, then why are there so many different versions of the Christian bible?

Easy. Have you been reading this thread?

Obviously people have different opinions about what they think is "right". Man's re-written the bible to suit his needs at the time, but it's pretty much the same thing as Gandhi living life his own way, Sam living life his own way, Hitler living life his own way. I'm not claiming to know the rules either, don't get me wrong - I don't think any living being can.

My point is that there is one set of rules that exists, one that God created, one that we're supposed to follow to get to chill with him for eternity. We're just unable to understand fully what these rules are, never mind why they are.

Am I making any sense?

Disclaimer: I'm not really a Christian, nor an Atheist...agnosticism makes the most sense to me. I don't claim to really know anything for certain about any of this, this is just a theory.

monkeyman

2007-12-17, 04:07 AM

-coughgodwin'slawcough-

Continue.

dudewithasock

2007-12-17, 04:09 AM

-coughgodwin'slawcough-

Continue.

Damnit, walked right into that one. ;)

phlegm

2007-12-17, 04:18 AM

Man's re-written the bible to suit his needs at the time

What is this different versions and rewriting the Bible? The different versions are different translations from original texts that were carefully preserved. How many ways can you translate between two human languages? Obviously there are many translations, and there will continue to be new ones because human language is dynamic.

dudewithasock

2007-12-17, 04:22 AM

What is this different versions and rewriting the Bible? The different versions are different translations from original texts that were carefully preserved. How many ways can you translate between two human languages? Obviously there are many translations, and there will continue to be new ones because human language is dynamic.

I'm not talking about translations, I'm talking about actual editing of the bible. I've been told by teachers in the past that the Church has taken out sections of the bible and added in more "fitting" verses several times in the past 2000 years. If this is complete rubbish, then please educate me, but this is what I've been told, and quite frankly, it seems pretty likely to me.

TheGreenMonster

2007-12-17, 05:53 AM

nice job but i think you should say a bit more about how we all fall short of the glory of god(break all the commandments daily) but he sent his son to die for us in are place and the reason he could take all are sins on him is he lived a perfect life and then rose on easter morning just thought that should be sayed

noah fife
:)

spazdude222

2007-12-18, 12:23 AM

spazdude222

2007-12-18, 12:26 AM

Why are you so special that god will grant you a little brother (for no good othr than that was what you wanted) when he does not grant world peace or stop children starving to death or being abused no matter how much they might pray for it?
With all due respect: I've adressed this point so many times, that it seems both a waste of my time and a flattery of your refusal to read my posts for me to repeat what I said earlier.

monkeyman

2007-12-18, 04:28 AM

break all the commandments daily

Yes, we do. I feel unproductive if I don't sleep around and murder every day. I don't know how you Christians manage.

MuniAddict

2007-12-18, 05:01 AM

If you read a newspaper for facts, you have a BIG problem.Haha yeah, especially the NY Times! Now, did god create man or did man create god?

cathwood

2007-12-18, 06:31 PM

With all due respect: I've adressed this point so many times, that it seems both a waste of my time and a flattery of your refusal to read my posts for me to repeat what I said earlier.

I don't think you have. Unless you are claiming that you are more special than other people who may (or may not) have greater needs than yours and this is actually fair because our human concept of fairness is flawed.

Maybe you are saying that?

spazdude222

2007-12-18, 07:57 PM

Why are you so special that god will grant you a little brother (for no good othr than that was what you wanted) when he does not grant world peace or stop children starving to death or being abused no matter how much they might pray for it?
I've said on more than one occasion, that just because WE don't understand how God works, doesn't mean He's evil, unfair, nonexistant, or illogical. It just means WE ARE NOT GOD. To act as if God should work in human terms is vain and absurd. Things don't revolve around us. We aren't the center of the universe, (well, acctually, we could be...scientifically there is no center unless you assign one) so why does everyone have such a hard time accepting that God can't be explained? The reason I choose to believe Christianity is that it's the only religion I've ever found that has a loving God, that is, a God that WANTS to spend time with you, but loves you enough to let you make your own decisions. It's the only religion with grace. Every other religion I've ever heard of is about trying to be good so you can get Heaven, or nirvana, or some number of virgins, or realease from samsara (is that the same as nirvana?), or the ability to become a god, or rule a planet or something. Biblical Christianity is the only religion that accounts for man's inability to be perfect. We can't understand him becasuse we aren't him. It's as simple as that.

peleschramm

2007-12-18, 09:16 PM

I've said on more than one occasion, that just because WE don't understand how God works, doesn't mean He's evil, unfair, nonexistant, or illogical. It just means WE ARE NOT GOD. To act as if God should work in human terms is vain and absurd. Things don't revolve around us. We aren't the center of the universe, (well, acctually, we could be...scientifically there is no center unless you assign one) so why does everyone have such a hard time accepting that God can't be explained? The reason I choose to believe Christianity is that it's the only religion I've ever found that has a loving God, that is, a God that WANTS to spend time with you, but loves you enough to let you make your own decisions. It's the only religion with grace. Every other religion I've ever heard of is about trying to be good so you can get Heaven, or nirvana, or some number of virgins, or realease from samsara (is that the same as nirvana?), or the ability to become a god, or rule a planet or something. Biblical Christianity is the only religion that accounts for man's inability to be perfect. We can't understand him becasuse we aren't him. It's as simple as that.

Plenty of other religions have a so called loving god. Almost all of them do. However, the people who worship that god are often the only ones to believe that he is a loving god. I, being an atheist, think that the Christian god is not all that much better than the Christian devil. You say that even though we don't understand gods ways he is still infinitely better in a moral sense. It's the exact same thing with ALL other religions (ok, maybe almost all). As an outsider, everyone sees the god as not being loving or anything, but those who do in fact worship, feel the same way about the Christian god and really feel as if the god they worship is 100% morally correct and loves them all.

James_Potter

2007-12-18, 09:26 PM

Saying that we don't understand why a being works the way he or she does, but we should do everything he tells us to because he also claims to love us (despite obvious evidence to the contrary), can have dire consequences (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonestown).
I think that pleading ignorance and faith is never superior to thinking for yourself.

mscalisi

2007-12-18, 09:41 PM

koolaid, yummm!!!

Danni

2007-12-18, 09:56 PM

I wonder if you've ever read The Lord of the Flies. I really liked that book, and I think (whether or not Golding meant to) it does a good job at showcasing the true nature of humans.

Golding was firmly against religion, and he portrays this in his book. Perhaps this book should be burned and cleansed?

The beast symbolized religion. It was used by Jack to control the other boys... If you don't do this, the beast will come and eat you!... If you don't believe in my particular religion, you will go to hell!

Christianity is the means of controlling the populace. A king put in charge by a god was a minny god himself. You wouldn't revolt or say bad things about this king because you might go to hell.

While science explains much, it still has a long way to go. It is so convenient to say that something bigger made everything the way it is. Just remember that the catholic church killed many astronomers and imprisoned Galileo for saying that the world was round and a tiny speck in the universe.

Religion tries to prove everything, so that we humans can feel meaningful, but in the end it proves nothing.

Sorry if I offend:)

OldDrone

2007-12-18, 11:53 PM

Spazzdude,
You say that your god is a loving god, but didn't he create everything? If he did then didn't he create hell, and the devil? Didn't he do this to punish us if we didn't do as is told in the bible? And when a soul goes to hell doesn't it endure an eternity of ever increasing suffering?

That makes your god the cruelest being in the universe. Worse then all the monsters this planet has ever seen. The worst a human can torture another is for one life time, but god shows no mercy, he just keeps on punishing forever with increasing pain. That doesn’t sound like a loving, just, god, it sounds just the opposite.

Alas, we have run into the unknowable again. Any rationalization that we pose to make your image of god good or bad, right or wrong is unknowable. Like all religions, they are superstitions. They work only if you believe in them.

You have admitted that you don’t know what god is or isn’t, wants or doesn’t want, because you don’t know, and that that can’t be known.

The next step is to say that you believe in Christianity because you want to, and no argument or reason against Christianity will change your mind. Admit that you are a close minded, follower of other people’s beliefs, and you are comfortable with that.

Say it loud and clear so everyone can know there is no point in continuing this conversation any longer.

dudewithasock

2007-12-19, 02:35 AM

Spazzdude,
You say that your god is a loving god, but didn't he create everything? If he did then didn't he create hell, and the devil? Didn't he do this to punish us if we didn't do as is told in the bible? And when a soul goes to hell doesn't it endure an eternity of ever increasing suffering?

That makes your god the cruelest being in the universe. Worse then all the monsters this planet has ever seen. The worst a human can torture another is for one life time, but god shows no mercy, he just keeps on punishing forever with increasing pain. That doesn’t sound like a loving, just, god, it sounds just the opposite.

I'm not really seeing your point...I don't personally believe that God created hell with the sole intent of punishing souls that never accepted/loved him. He had to have somewhere to put the souls of people that couldn't go to heaven, or else they'd just cease existing.

And my personal view of hell isn't the same as yours, apparently, and I'm not totally sure it's the same as Sam's. You're making hell out to be the stereotypical fire and brimstone torture chamber that popular culture forced in the general public's mind. I view hell as simply an absence of God, which really makes hell a pretty important place. It seems to me that God really shows his love by creating hell, because he's not forcing himself on people that don't want to accept him, and simply letting them go off to a different realm where he doesn't exist. Whatever actually happens in hell isn't his business, since he turned over control to Lucifer, so I wouldn't blame that part on God.

Obviously I'm not claiming to know any of this for sure, but it's another theory I've considered.

BillyTheMountain

2007-12-19, 02:48 AM

dudewithasock

2007-12-19, 02:51 AM

The pattern: Someone says they believe in GOD. They let him get away with this for several pages, then ATTACK!!!!!

Non-stop ATTACK.

Then eventually the thread dies.

Some time later, the same or another person says they believe in GOD, and the pattern starts again.

Why doesn't someone just say: Use the search function?

Because if all we did was say 'use the search function', there'd never be any fresh ideas, new people in the discussion, and things would get boring quickly.

Now be quiet.

peleschramm

2007-12-19, 04:47 AM

dudewithasock

2007-12-19, 05:05 AM

... Hell is definitely a place of eternal torture, I don't know what your getting at.

The way I've heard it described by some Christians is simply a place where God is completely absent. You sound like you've fallen into the trap of correlating "eternal torture" with "human suffering"; in this case, they're not synonymous. You're not in Heaven or Hell in a human form, you're there as a spirit, a soul, the essence of yourself. Torture means something completely different.

phlegm

2007-12-19, 05:34 AM

Hell is definitely a place of eternal torture

Say the Ancient Greeks...

There are other ideas about hell. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell)

BillyTheMountain

2007-12-20, 02:22 AM

Because if all we did was say 'use the search function', there'd never be any fresh ideas, new people in the discussion, and things would get boring quickly.

Now be quiet.

If you'd use the search function, maybe you'd have the energy to come with a fresh idea instead of reinventing the wheel.

dudewithasock

2007-12-20, 04:37 AM

If you'd use the search function, maybe you'd have the energy to come with a fresh idea instead of reinventing the wheel.

...that makes no sense to me, sorry. How is me using the search function gonna give me more energy? I'd rather just type what I feel at that moment.

BillyTheMountain

2007-12-20, 04:47 AM

...that makes no sense to me, sorry. How is me using the search function gonna give me more energy? I'd rather just type what I feel at that moment.

Imagine if scientist never looked up previous research, they'd be reinventing the atom bomb all over again, and again, and again, and again.

That's energy that could be better used.

dudewithasock

2007-12-20, 12:28 PM

Pft, I'm a lazy teenager. What else am I gonna use that energy for? :)

BillyTheMountain

2007-12-21, 02:20 AM

Pft, I'm a lazy teenager. What else am I gonna use that energy for? :)

Did someone say there's a world that needs saving?

Heck, not till one more wii and another DVD.

spazdude222

2007-12-22, 12:09 AM

I'm not really seeing your point...I don't personally believe that God created hell with the sole intent of punishing souls that never accepted/loved him. He had to have somewhere to put the souls of people that couldn't go to heaven, or else they'd just cease existing.

And my personal view of hell isn't the same as yours, apparently, and I'm not totally sure it's the same as Sam's. You're making hell out to be the stereotypical fire and brimstone torture chamber that popular culture forced in the general public's mind. I view hell as simply an absence of God, which really makes hell a pretty important place. It seems to me that God really shows his love by creating hell, because he's not forcing himself on people that don't want to accept him, and simply letting them go off to a different realm where he doesn't exist. Whatever actually happens in hell isn't his business, since he turned over control to Lucifer, so I wouldn't blame that part on God.

Obviously I'm not claiming to know any of this for sure, but it's another theory I've considered.
I acctually like this idea. I've never read anything in the bible that says you will go to a place of eternal torture in the bible. In revelations it mentions a lake of fire, which I think might be where people got the idea. I believe hell exists, I believe it would be the worst possible place to be, but I don't think it's torture the way we think of it. i think it's more like a completely bland existence, knowing that there's nothing you can do. Like an eternity of regret, but like Matt said, it's God's ABSENCE, not God's creation. Would you blame a teacher who was not at school for the problems her class faced/caused that day?

James_Potter

2007-12-22, 12:19 AM

Would you blame a teacher who was not at school for the problems her class faced/caused that day?
At my school, a teacher didn't show up occasionally...after fifteen minutes of waiting, we would go downtown to eat stuff, and chill.
It was sweet.

spazdude222

2007-12-22, 12:22 AM

Spazzdude...Admit that you are a close minded, follower of other people’s beliefs, and you are comfortable with that.

Say it loud and clear so everyone can know there is no point in continuing this conversation any longer.
I'm sorry for being so offended by this, I'm sorry for calling you an asshole, I'm sorry that this post doesn't model Christian behavior, but you have just posted the single most ignorant, douche-baggy thing I've ever heard. Believing in something is not the same as being closed minded, you dolt. Close-minded means I wouldn't listen to or consider your arguments. I've listened, I've considered, and my belief remains. If I was close-minded, I would just say "God exists" and then leave the thread without discussing anything. In fact, I think, if you have half a brain and the ability to think, you'll see that an Atheist is even more close-minded than a Christian. Atheism is the belief that God does not exist, which would mean all religions are false. Christians at least leve their minds open enough for one.

Again, sorry for being a jerk and letting the sinner in me get a word in, but I abhor the stupidity of others, who suppose that the ability to believe is a flaw, who think that conviction is the same as ignorance, who think that they know what they are talking about when they don't.

spazdude222

2007-12-22, 12:23 AM

At my school, a teacher didn't show up occasionally...after fifteen minutes of waiting, we would go downtown to eat stuff, and chill.
It was sweet.
That's awesome. I like when you luck out in those sort of situations.

James_Potter

2007-12-22, 12:30 AM

Atheism is the belief that God does not exist, which would mean all religions are false.
Except for Buddhism!

Again, sorry for being a jerk and letting the sinner in me get a word in, but I abhor the stupidity of others, who suppose that the ability to believe is a flaw, who think that conviction is the same as ignorance, who think that they know what they are talking about when they don't.
It's cool, that's probably what Jesus would have done too.

James_Potter

2007-12-22, 12:31 AM

That's awesome. I like when you luck out in those sort of situations.
Exactly.
So, in the case of God's absence, I will not go to Hell, I will just go downtown to eat stuff and chill.

Divebomber

2007-12-22, 01:20 AM

I honestly don't understand how people say believing in a omnipresent, eternal God is insane and yet, believe sapce aliens exist and live and breathe on other planets we know little about (which I've yet to see solid proof) and that we as humans, who are capable of art, music, literature, culture, and science evolved from apes or any other creature.

If you really break it down, believing in God isn't really all that crazy and "stupid" if you look at it that way...I mean, C'mon, I've yet to see solid evidence of true alien life and yet, people widely believe it, but scoff at the idea of a God.

Also, there is proof of God. Creation itself is proof. Maybe you don't believe in "creation" as in, that we were created by a God, but you cannot deny the complexity of the simplest lifeforms. DNA itself is complex and in my opinion, couldn't have evolved (DNA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA)) from anything.

I think science fails to really support any claims when it comes to creation and if it is true that the "big bang" theory is what is currently accepted, it still fails to answer where exactly or why the physics of the physical realm are the way they are. It just "is". Why is it that "every object will remain at rest or in uniform motion in a straight line unless compelled to change its state by the action of an external force"? Who made that happen? Why is it like that? Who wrote the rules? It just happens doesn't it? We see that everyday in our lives.. I've yet to see scientific proof pertaining to why this is, it just merely is... No one knows why our universe is the way it is...or where the "law" or "rules" of physics orginated, it just simply is and science is there to explain how it works, which, to me does little.

To the athiest I ask, not to "come down on you" or start a "religion war", but simply ask you, if you don't believe in God or any kind-of higher power, can you answer these questions? Can you tell me where things started from the very beginning? Before human life or any kind-of "science" was created/invented or thought of? Do you have any absolute truth in which you stand on or believe in?

Goats_On_Unicycles

2007-12-22, 01:34 AM

Also, there is proof of God. Creation itself is proof. Maybe you don't believe in "creation" as in, that we were created by a God, but you cannot deny the complexity of the simplest lifeforms. DNA itself is complex and in my opinion, couldn't have evolved (DNA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA)) from anything.

I don't believe in God or Aliens... And people don't worship space-people I don't think.

In your opinion isn't the same as facts. I would be interested to see if scientists can explain how DNA evolved. As far as I know, it's always been around... but I'm not very knowledgeble in science.
I don't care if people believe in "God" or not. I just don't want "God" stuffed down my throat. It tastes not good to me.

James_Potter

2007-12-22, 01:37 AM

I honestly don't understand how people say believing in a omnipresent, eternal God is insane and yet, believe sapce aliens exist and live and breathe on other planets we know little about (which I've yet to see solid proof) and that we as humans, who are capable of art, music, literature, culture, and science evolved from apes or any other creature.
I don't think that believing in God is insane...I just realize that there is no evidence to support it (which doesn't mean that it's not true), whereas there is a lot of evidence supporting the theory of evolution. Also, we know the universe is MASSIVE so suggesting that the Earth is the only planet with any life on it is just selfish.

Also, there is proof of God. Creation itself is proof. Maybe you don't believe in "creation" as in, that we were created by a God, but you cannot deny the complexity of the simplest lifeforms. DNA itself is complex and in my opinion, couldn't have evolved (DNA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA)) from anything.
It's possible.
The opposite of what you said is also possible.
It's also possible that nothing was ever created, and simply has always existed in a complex form.

I think science fails to really support any claims when it comes to creation and if it is true that the "big bang" theory is what is currently accepted, it still fails to answer where exactly or why the physics of the physical realm are the way they are. It just "is". Why is it that "every object will remain at rest or in uniform motion in a straight line unless compelled to change its state by the action of an external force"? Who made that happen? Why is it like that? Who wrote the rules? It just happens doesn't it? We see that everyday in our lives.. I've yet to see scientific proof pertaining to why this is, it just merely is... No one knows why our universe is the way it is...or where the "law" or "rules" of physics orginated, it just simply is and science is there to explain how it works, which, to me does little.
Science and religion are the same thing, in my opinion...trying to discover how and why the universe is what it is.
Science has answered many questions, but there are still about a zillion currently unanswered, that may never be answered...but the fact that we don't know is still no evidence that God did it.

To the athiest I ask, not to "come down on you" or start a "religion war", but simply ask you, if you don't believe in God or any kind-of higher power, can you answer these questions? Can you tell me where things started from the very beginning? Before human life or any kind-of "science" was created/invented or thought of? Do you have any absolute truth in which you stand on or believe in?
Of course not, and neither can you. You can say that your beliefs give a perfectly plausible possibility, but look at Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, FSMism, atheism, any form of Paganism...and each one has an equally nonsensical but perfectly possible explanation about the universe.
Me, I believe the universe is sitting on the back of a giant turtle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down).

James_Potter

2007-12-22, 01:38 AM

I don't believe in God or Aliens... And people don't worship space-people I don't think.
Ever heard of Scientology?

Divebomber

2007-12-22, 02:17 AM

I don't think that believing in God is insane...I just realize that there is no evidence to support it (which doesn't mean that it's not true), whereas there is a lot of evidence supporting the theory of evolution. Also, we know the universe is MASSIVE so suggesting that the Earth is the only planet with any life on it is just selfish.

Never said that earth was on the only planet that had life. My statement was I didn't understand how people think that believing in God was "insane", but that believing in Aliens made more sense.

[quote]Science and religion are the same thing, in my opinion...trying to discover how and why the universe is what it is.
Science has answered many questions, but there are still about a zillion currently unanswered, that may never be answered...but the fact that we don't know is still no evidence that God did it.

So then I see little comfort in human efforts that leave a zillion unanswered questions. Especially the most important ones. Granted, I'm very thankful for the advances in technology and medicine, but putting your trust in something that doesn't always work seems rather empty and depressing. Maybe God doesn't "work" like you think He should, but I find that what the Bible does answer is the most important questions like the existance of life, relationships, human reasoning, cause and effect and many other things that science can't seem to qrap it's head around. Or, the basic things that are known, seem to be revealed in the Bible over 2,000 years ago.

Of course not, and neither can you. You can say that your beliefs give a perfectly plausible possibility, but look at Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, FSMism, atheism, any form of Paganism...and each one has an equally nonsensical but perfectly possible explanation about the universe.
Me, I believe the universe is sitting on the back of a giant turtle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down).

You got me, I know little about other religions, but a little about Buddhism as I once considered myself one. Buddism seems great in theory, but leaves it to you to become "enlightened". It leaves it to oneself to train the mind/body and spirit to become a better person. A series of teachings rather than a belief in God. Which puts an awful lot on the person to better themselves. While some people are "better" than others, I don't think anyone can follow any philosophy to the fullest, which doesn't make me want to follow something I know I'll never measure up to.

I don't want or need to push Christianity down anyones throat, but seeing all the threads posted here debating "religion" (Which I don't like saying Christianity is), I wanted to post my opinion and what I believe to be truth. I do believe in absolute truth (something that is true all the time) and take comfort in it. Knowing that there are answers to lifes most important questions that society has not answered. I can't make anyone believe, but just simply state what I do believe and rest upon. It really is your decision to take it or throw it away and yours alone.

I hope that you guys do find some truth for all the "possibilities" out there, but it's not my job to "shove it down your throat.

By the way, I noticed a little defensiveness towards my post. Sorry if it was threatening, but I just wanted to see if anyone could answer basic questions better than the Bible has, and I've yet to see it...that's all...

BillyTheMountain

2007-12-22, 02:27 AM

Exactly.
So, in the case of God's absence, I will not go to Hell, I will just go downtown to eat stuff and chill.

Love may be the more divisive issue. It seems that most political divides have those who believe in love on one side, and those who don't on the other pro-war vs pro-peace, pro caring for our brothers and sisters vs screwing them, etc.

It's impossible to prove the existence of love. It's even impossible to prove you love your spouse, or that your spouse loves you, or that your dog loves you. These are things some of us take on faith, while others just respond to our spouse: I don't believe you. I'm an aphilist.

To paraphrase james: So, in the case of Love's absence, we will all be in Hell.

Oddly enough, many who refuse to have faith in GOD easily have faith in Love.

It's cooler to be cynical about GOD than it is to be cynical about Love.

cool-bananas

2007-12-22, 02:41 AM

By the way, I noticed a little defensiveness towards my post. Sorry if it was threatening, but I just wanted to see if anyone could answer basic questions better than the Bible has, and I've yet to see it...that's all...

But how does the fact that it answers questions make it true? If I was to write a book and publish that the world was created by a giant tree in the sky does that make it true?

People used to think that the planets (Our solar system) used to revolve around the Earth rather than the Sun. This geocentric model answered questions better than the heliocentric model. However the heliocentric model is correct. My point is just because some book explains some of lifes mysteries does not make it true.

cathwood

2007-12-22, 05:07 PM

To the athiest I ask, not to "come down on you" or start a "religion war", but simply ask you, if you don't believe in God or any kind-of higher power, can you answer these questions? Can you tell me where things started from the very beginning? Before human life or any kind-of "science" was created/invented or thought of? Do you have any absolute truth in which you stand on or believe in?

I can't answer the question of where things started but I don't really know how the internet works either. I'm happy to live with not knowing.

And no, there is no absolute truth in which I believe in. But that's OK too.

dudewithasock

2007-12-22, 05:19 PM

I can't answer the question of where things started but I don't really know how the internet works either. I'm happy to live with not knowing.

And no, there is no absolute truth in which I believe in. But that's OK too.

Very well said.

As an agnostic, I'm constantly wondering why people feel the need to find the truth to everything. I find it an enjoyable past-time to consider such things, but in the long run, I don't really care if we find a definitive answer, via science OR religion, because I'm here, and I'm satisfied with my ignorance.

James_Potter

2007-12-22, 05:36 PM

So then I see little comfort in human efforts that leave a zillion unanswered questions. Especially the most important ones. Granted, I'm very thankful for the advances in technology and medicine, but putting your trust in something that doesn't always work seems rather empty and depressing.
I concur totally...I don't believe in God, but I believe life would be better, happier, more hopeful if there was one, or at least if I did believe in one. But I can't force myself to believe in something that I just inherently don't. For example I also think life would be better if there was magic or Santa, but I know that those aren't true and I can't force myself to believe in them.
So. Religion only gives hope to those who are able to believe in it.

You got me, I know little about other religions, but a little about Buddhism as I once considered myself one. Buddism seems great in theory, but leaves it to you to become "enlightened". It leaves it to oneself to train the mind/body and spirit to become a better person. A series of teachings rather than a belief in God. Which puts an awful lot on the person to better themselves. While some people are "better" than others, I don't think anyone can follow any philosophy to the fullest, which doesn't make me want to follow something I know I'll never measure up to.
True, however reincarnation gives everyone all of eternity to improve themselves and eventually reach enlightenment. Someone shouldn't choose a philosophy of life based on how easy it is....

Divebomber

2007-12-22, 06:52 PM

I concur totally...I don't believe in God, but I believe life would be better, happier, more hopeful if there was one, or at least if I did believe in one. But I can't force myself to believe in something that I just inherently don't. For example I also think life would be better if there was magic or Santa, but I know that those aren't true and I can't force myself to believe in them.
So. Religion only gives hope to those who are able to believe in it.

And I'm not here to force you to believe in anything. If you can't force yourself to believe it, neither can I! That's not my purpose. I'm simply offering you a hope that I've found, but again..I can't you've got to believe it, but I'm not here to force "Christianity" down anyones throat, it'd be a waste of my time and yours... But I still think I should speak openly on these threads because it's relevant and I believe it to be truth and stand by it. Much like others do with their own beliefs.

True, however reincarnation gives everyone all of eternity to improve themselves and eventually reach enlightenment. Someone shouldn't choose a philosophy of life based on how easy it is....

Christianity isn't easy by far! But I believe with reincarnation, if you can't get it right now, and if there is not "advancement" in yourself throughout eternity, then I don't want to bank on getting it right eventually... Knowing me, I'd screw up even more as time went on!

I really don't understand why anyone would not care about an absolute truth. I mean, even if I wasn't a Christian and before I became one, I still wasn't satisfied with not knowing or caring...or merely trying to figure it out.

Again, I can't or will not, force anyone to believe in God. I can't do that. But I know that theres little rest elsewhere. And I know that because I've tried to find it elsewhere...

BillyTheMountain

2007-12-22, 07:42 PM

I concur totally...I don't believe in God, but I believe life would be better, happier, more hopeful if there was one, or at least if I did believe in one. But I can't force myself to believe in something that I just inherently don't. ....

C'mon, James,

Develop your imagination. That's what it takes to believe anyone loves you, right? There's no proof of it. It's called faith, and it takes a little imagination.

Don't submit to religious authorities who define GOD in limited ways.

Imagine one that works for YOU.

Someone shouldn't choose a philosophy of life based on how easy it is....

Why not?

Who are you to say?

What should we base our choice on?

Billy

spazdude222

2007-12-22, 09:35 PM

I'm sorry for being so offended by this, I'm sorry for calling you an asshole, I'm sorry that this post doesn't model Christian behavior, but you have just posted the single most ignorant, douche-baggy thing I've ever heard. Believing in something is not the same as being closed minded, you dolt. Close-minded means I wouldn't listen to or consider your arguments. I've listened, I've considered, and my belief remains. If I was close-minded, I would just say "God exists" and then leave the thread without discussing anything. In fact, I think, if you have half a brain and the ability to think, you'll see that an Atheist is even more close-minded than a Christian. Atheism is the belief that God does not exist, which would mean all religions are false. Christians at least leve their minds open enough for one.

Again, sorry for being a jerk and letting the sinner in me get a word in, but I abhor the stupidity of others, who suppose that the ability to believe is a flaw, who think that conviction is the same as ignorance, who think that they know what they are talking about when they don't.I want to offer an apology for this post. I was really upset, and should have waited (till a time like now) when i was less irational to address the idea of being close-minded. I'm sorry for the offensive language used and for attacking OldDrone personally, rather than merely answering his post.

BillyTheMountain

2007-12-23, 01:05 AM

I want to offer an apology for this post. I was really upset, and should have waited (till a time like now) when i was less irational to address the idea of being close-minded. I'm sorry for the offensive language used and for attacking OldDrone personally, rather than merely answering his post.

GOD forgave you before you even clicked on the "Submit Reply" button, my child.

Amazing.....

spazdude222

2007-12-23, 04:59 AM

GOD forgave you before you even clicked on the "Submit Reply" button, my child.

Amazing.....
I know. But I don't want to bear the name "Christianity" and cast a bad shadow over it. Part of who am am is Christ, and If I'm not willing to take responsibility for what I've said or done, then all I do is tarnish His reputation. Thank you though for the encouragement.

johnfoss

2007-12-23, 04:32 PM

I honestly don't understand how people say believing in a omnipresent, eternal God is insane and yet, believe sapce aliens exist and live and breathe on other planets we know little about..."Space" aliens? Do they have to have space travel, or can they just live on their own worlds? Are we space humans? The idea is statistical probability. It is believed there are tens of thousands of worlds, just in this galaxy, with conditions relatively similar to ours. Considering such a number, it is believed the odds of other planets developing life is very high. Or we can be arrogant and think it could never happen anywhere else. It's a very big universe! There is no evidence of this at all, but an accepted (by some) probablility.

Or did a creator create life on other worlds? Why not? Though some religious texts may imply that this never happened, I imagine most don't really get into the idea.

Statistics:
I'm about to flip a coin. I firmly believe there's a 50% chance that it will be heads. I have no proof of this, other than repeated attempts. It's like that.

But at the same time this world is filled with people who believe in UFOs and "visitors" from outer space with virtually no evidence of any kind. And TV channels like History and TLC doing shows on them (ignoring any scientific method) doesn't help. It's a load of crap to me, but some people eat it up with the same lack of evidence as much of religion.

...we as humans, who are capable of art, music, literature, culture, and science evolved from apes or any other creature. Theory does not say we evolved from apes. We and the other primates evolved from lesser forms of primate. Apes are contemporary.

Also, there is proof of God. Creation itself is proof.Proof enough for some. For others it's proof of other things. In reality, the existence of something proves that it exists, but proves nothing about where it came from.

Maybe you don't believe in "creation" as in, that we were created by a God, but you cannot deny the complexity of the simplest lifeforms.An argument I hear more and more lately. Life, and this world, are too complex to have developed on their own. According to what standard? One might also say that they are too complex for an all-powerful being to have created them. Why make things so complicated? Why create Windows Vista when you could have just created Linux?

Anyway, our physical world continues to get more complex as we learn more about it. To one who thinks things need to get easier, instead of harder, I can see this being disappointing. But proof of creation? Come on.

I think science fails to really support any claims when it comes to creation and if it is true that the "big bang" theory is what is currently accepted, it still fails to answer where exactly or why the physics of the physical realm are the way they are.I agree that science doesn't support the creation theory. The big bang is also one of many theories, driven by what we know of movement of the stars around us (and galaxies?). It sure doesn't answer the question of what blew up, and why, and how it got that way to start with.

It just "is". Why is it that "every object will remain at rest or in uniform motion in a straight line unless compelled to change its state by the action of an external force"? Who made that happen? Why is it like that? Who wrote the rules?Good questions. Science has figured out a lot about those physical rules. Why the assumption that someone "made" those rules?

Trapped as we are on this one little world, it's amazing to me how much we understand (or think we understand) about our universe. But without going out and seeing more for ourselves, much of it may just be guesswork. Theories are proven wrong all the time. When we go to Mars I'm sure we'll break a bunch of assumed rules.

No one knows why our universe is the way it is...or where the "law" or "rules" of physics orginated, it just simply is and science is there to explain how it works, which, to me does little.It does a lot for me. This summer I'm going to Denmark. I'm glad I don't have to take a boat, and over a month to get there. I thank a bunch of scientists and engineers for that.

You wanted to know where things started from the very beginning? Nobody knows. Only the "believers" claim to know, but they can't be any more sure, other than within their own minds, than anyone else. My question about the big bang: How did it get that way? What went on before that? We're not likely to figure this out anytime soon.

Now my question for you. Where did God come from? Was the Creator created by another creator? If not, then from what? Religious texts will offer their various stories, but how to know if any of them are true?

johnfoss

2007-12-23, 04:47 PM

So then I see little comfort in human efforts that leave a zillion unanswered questions.To me it's a zillion minus a million. The human race gets to take credit for that million. If we can answer those, we can answer more. We seem to be learning a lot faster in the last century than ever before, so the answers may come faster. But I don't expect these to be answers to any of the "big" questions.

Granted, I'm very thankful for the advances in technology and medicine, but putting your trust in something that doesn't always work seems rather empty and depressing.As a former user of Windows who now uses a Mac, I know exactly what you mean. Life is much more satisfying to me since I "converted." But did I make the "right" choice? Is there a right choice? Or is there just what works for me, or in other words, makes me happy and perhaps more productive?

Buddism seems great in theory, but leaves it to you to become "enlightened". It leaves it to oneself to train the mind/body and spirit to become a better person. A series of teachings rather than a belief in God. Which puts an awful lot on the person to better themselves.Instead of serving it up for you in easy, weekly doses? Instead of saying "show up and you will be enlightened? Actually I like the idea. People have a tendency to be lazy. Many of us won't do smart things that we know are good for us, like signing up for the company's 401k matching plan, or brushing our teeth regularly. Those are easy examples. I like the idea of an expectation to better myself.

Sorry if it was threatening, but I just wanted to see if anyone could answer basic questions better than the Bible has, and I've yet to see it...that's all...If the Bible's version of the world is what works for you, more power to you. To me, it doesn't answer those questions, it just presents a scenario based on stuff that was written down at a much earlier period in human history. To me, the stuff we can figure out based on physical evidence is a lot more compelling. For all of human history we have lived under a blue sky, stuck to the ground, etc. Now we know more about why that sky is blue, and why we don't all float around. But we still have much to learn.

Those were great posts by the way, and I don't wish to shove anything down anyones' throats either. I think these kinds of discussions help us understand each other.

johnfoss

2007-12-23, 04:54 PM

I really don't understand why anyone would not care about an absolute truth. I mean, even if I wasn't a Christian and before I became one, I still wasn't satisfied with not knowing or caring...or merely trying to figure it out. And now you have found the one that works for you. And that's great. If it makes us feel better about ourselves, if it makes us feel empowered, hopefully that makes us better, more confident people. Maybe you chose your truth, or maybe it chose you. But is it absolute? It is just the version that works for you. It also works for a large chunk of the human population, though not the majority.

Some of us are okay with not knowing these absolute truths. Or perhaps with knowing that we cannot know them absolutely. Just as our ancestors didn't know why the sky was blue or what gravity was all about, they knew they couldn't deny their reality. I don't deny the reality of my world either, and would rather have an incomplete truth that's been verified to as much degree as possible, than a complete truth I must take on faith.

johnfoss

2007-12-23, 05:12 PM

I think, if you have half a brain and the ability to think, you'll see that an Atheist is even more close-minded than a Christian. Atheism is the belief that God does not exist, which would mean all religions are false. Christians at least leve their minds open enough for one.I know you have apologized for this post later on, but I'm not sure if you were including this part, so I'll offer a response. An atheist has one world view, and discards the others. A Christian has a different, single world view, and discards the others. Score: 1 - 1 on closed-mindedness. Or open-mindedness. They believe what they believe.

This is assuming all Christians and all atheists are alike and believe the same stuff, which we know to not be true (even if only just from reading in this forum). There are, what I'll call, different "levels" of being an atheist. One is the lack of belief in a God. Another is the firm conviction that there aren't any Gods. Two very different approaches.

Atheists do not necessarily reject all other religions. Not all religions involve a creator. Buddhism would seem to fit the model, for example. The idea is the lack of acceptance of an all-seeing, all-knowing creator who exists to be the answer to all of man's questions. Very understandable to have such a thing in ancient times, but seemingly less necessary today. Though on the other hand one might consider it *more* necessary as our world gets more complicated.

BillyTheMountain

2007-12-23, 06:29 PM

There are, what I'll call, different "levels" of being an atheist. One is the lack of belief in a God. Another is the firm conviction that there aren't any Gods. Two very different approaches..

Here we go again.....

Not all religions involve a creator. Buddhism would seem to fit the model, for example.

Funny, though, that Buddha was a devout Hindu.

C-ZER

2007-12-23, 06:35 PM

An alien is any living thing not originaly from earth. If this is true and if God created Earth then God is not from Earth so that makes him an alien.

Makes sense to me.

C-ZER

2007-12-23, 06:37 PM

Is the FSM Italian?

uni57

2007-12-23, 07:25 PM

I'm much more inclined to believe in aliens than a supernatural being.

supernatural being -- smacks of mythology and superstition; needlessly complex theory of the universe (Occam's Razor); no evidence; explains nothing -- if life is too complex to form on it's own, then how the hell did God come into being? -- it's the same problem to an infitine degree; if God just "always was" then why can't we simply say the same thing about the universe (why seek an origin of one but not the other?)

home-bound aliens -- plausible and likely, given the size of the universe; direct evidence that it's possible -- life has developed on a planet (we've observed this), so why can't it develop on another?

Earth-visiting, space-traveling aliens -- far less likely due to the vast distances; but then again, look at all we've learned and developed in the last 100 years -- imagine where we'll be after another 10,000 years -- who knows what will be possible

Edit: regarding the Earth-visiting aliens -- another reason they are unlikely is that they seem to seek out the very dumbest people on the planet (shouldn't they study or talk to the smartest people? -- but who knows, maybe they prefer the smart and peaceful dolphins)

Goats_On_Unicycles

2007-12-23, 07:31 PM

Didn't Calvin once say that the surest sign that there is intelligent life elsewhere is that it has never tried to contact us?

C-ZER

2007-12-23, 08:03 PM

I am from the future.

PS sorry If YOU think this is spam.

Into the blue

2007-12-23, 08:11 PM

Didn't Calvin once say that the surest sign that there is intelligent life elsewhere is that it has never tried to contact us?

Yes he did.

Kudos on the quote, Jackie.

s7ev0

2007-12-23, 11:41 PM

You know, I really enjoyed this forum before we got so many of these "How many angels will fit on a pin head?" threads.

I guess that's just me though.

Divebomber

2007-12-23, 11:51 PM

You know, I really enjoyed this forum before we got so many of these "How many angels will fit on a pin head?" threads.

I guess that's just me though.

I'm starting to agree. Yes, I'm a Christian, but I've been lurking these forums more than posting and these "religious" threads are nothing but a Merry-go-round that goes around and around with no end or conclusion. I think that there needs to come a time to agree to disagree and just talk about lite things. I find that it does take away from the fun of this forum and can be unwelcoming. Some people can get so crazy and hateful with it. If you don't like what I believe that's fine, but for crying out loud! We don't need to argue about it. I'm bowing out of the "religious" threads and letting you guys fight among yourselves.

BillyTheMountain

2007-12-24, 12:16 AM

I'm bowing out of the "religious" threads and letting you guys fight among yourselves.

If you do that, the Atheists have won.

spazdude222

2007-12-24, 01:34 AM

I know you have apologized for this post later on, but I'm not sure if you were including this part, so I'll offer a response. An atheist has one world view, and discards the others. A Christian has a different, single world view, and discards the others. Score: 1 - 1 on closed-mindedness. Or open-mindedness. They believe what they believe.

Fair point. All I was really trying to do was emphasize the fact that believing a single thing isn't the same as closing your mind, and show how offensive t is to call someone close-minded on a count of them not agreeing with you. Untill that post where I lost it, I didn't call anyone close-minded, and even when I did post that, I didn't really mean it. And about buddhism, maybe I'm just wrong, but don't most people consider it more of a philosophy for livng than a religion? It's always seemed to me like a lot of good advice, but not an actual religion.

dudewithasock

2007-12-24, 02:05 AM

SqueakyOnion

2007-12-24, 02:14 AM

You know, I really enjoyed this forum before we got so many of these "How many angels will fit on a pin head?" threads.

I guess that's just me though.

I think it is just you. I get a lot out of these types of discussions, and read them daily. I usually don't post responses because someone has already said close to what I would have said, or I don't know enough about the topic to make any of my responses post-worthy. An uneducated/ignorant answer is really pretty useless. It's very stimulating to hear different points of view. Discussions on here have even sparked discussions with my family.

I especially enjoy BillyTheMountain and johnfoss's posts.

I really hope these kinds of threads/discussions keep going.

C-ZER

2007-12-24, 02:23 AM

If you can turn water into wine in 36bc would that be magic or science?
Was there a noodly apendage in that wine?

s7ev0

2007-12-24, 11:08 AM

If you do that, the Atheists have won.

Mr The Mountain, I am not worthy.

That was a post of pure class and I hereby retract my original post out of respect to your obvious seniority in wooden spoon-wielding.

Thank you for bringing me to my senses.

phlegm

2007-12-24, 06:27 PM

these "religious" threads are nothing but a Merry-go-round that goes around and around with no end or conclusion.

But merry-go-rounds are fun with their whimsical animal sculptures, swirling lights, and cheerful organ music. What's not to like? :p

johnfoss

2007-12-24, 07:10 PM

I think that there needs to come a time to agree to disagree and just talk about lite things.That would be what I call the unicycling forum. :) But this is "lite" as well. I come in here when I need a "brain break." I usually stay too long, but I only read or post in threads that interest me. For example I don't follow ones about video games, which unicycle to buy, or anything that involves what appear to be only kids throwing insults at each other and providing little or no information. But this being Just Conversation, no topic is off limits. The limiting is left up to you, the user. Don't read threads you don't like!

Plus I'll add what I usually like to emphasize, don't post unless you actually have something to say, and something that more than one person needs to hear. Use PMs or email for the one-to-one stuff.

And don't worry about Billy. Nobody knows what he actually thinks or believes. It seems nearly everything he posts is designed to stir up more discussion or debate. Nobody "wins" these debates, but if one side leaves, it can kill the discussion. That's okay too, I have a lot to do! No hard feelings. I here we throw worlds at each other, but hopefully in a nice way. If we ever meet in person, we usually have a great time riding together.

BillyTheMountain

2007-12-24, 10:46 PM

Am I the only one who enjoys these religious debates? Sure there's never any end to them, but hey, it's fun to discuss, even if it's beating a dead horse. Beating on things can be more fun than most people realize. :D

It's not fun for the horse, though.

Discussions on here have even sparked discussions with my family.

I especially enjoy BillyTheMountain and johnfoss's posts.

I really hope these kinds of threads/discussions keep going.

Thanks!

And don't worry about Billy. Nobody knows what he actually thinks or believes. It seems nearly everything he posts is designed to stir up more discussion or debate.

:eek:

I've come clean before: I'm an interspiritualist. A citizen of many sacred communities.

I think GOD is LOVE, and while the existence of neither can be proven, more people have staked out positions on the existence of GOD than on the existence of LOVE.

If I say I believe in LOVE, or I believe in the power of LOVE, people don't attack my FAITH.

Why?

JJuggle

2007-12-24, 11:25 PM

It's not fun for the horse, though.

http://www.dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/archive/images/dilbert2611160071217.gif

http://www.dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/archive/images/dilbert2030558071218.gif

s7ev0

2007-12-24, 11:30 PM

If I say I believe in LOVE, or I believe in the power of LOVE, people don't attack my FAITH.

Why?

Interesting. What's the difference between faith in love and faith in god?

James_Potter

2007-12-24, 11:47 PM

Interesting. What's the difference between faith in love and faith in god?
If you're Christian, there is no difference.

1 John 4:16 "God Is Love"

unicyclification

2007-12-24, 11:48 PM

unicyclification

2007-12-24, 11:50 PM

unicyclification

2007-12-25, 12:02 AM

Religion, faith, spirituality, whatever--it's all personal and subjective. Do what is fulfilling and makes you happy.

What about when the things I find fulfilling and the things that make me happy are detrimental to other people? Is that also personal and subjective?

unicyclification

2007-12-25, 12:53 AM

That's another reason Christianity can be considered an ugly religion, because God doesn't care if you're good or not, She cares if you say you love Her. In my opinion, sucking up is not something to get rewarded for, if you continue to do bad things.

I am very sorry for whoever gave you this impression of Christianity. In the Christian perspective, God has no tolerance for those who "say" one thing but don't "do". I think most Christians would say God DOES care if you're good or not, and that whether or not you "love" God is demonstrated by actions rather than words.

People should get rewarded for living a moral life, and the Bible in my opinion corrupts the meaning of "good" and "evil" saying that everyone is evil. Says who? I am not an evil person. I've done drugs, I've said bad words, I've told lies, and the Bible is the only thing that says any of those are bad (well, authority figures too sometimes, but only because they read the Bible).

1. Define the term "moral life"...
2. In your opinion, the Bible corrupts what definition of "good" and "evil"? Your own definition? Society's? Please explain...
3. You state that you are not an evil person, so you must have some criteria for distinguishing an evil person from a good one. Please let us know your definition of an evil person. What does one look like?

Why would God give certain plants psychedelic properties in creating them, if She specifically wanted people to not use them? It's like saying that God put dinosaur bones underground to test our faith...it's like a trap, or a trick question. It's like God is trying to fool us into making the wrong move, and suddenly not getting salvation.

Why would God give the poison dart frog lethally poisonous secretions when he created them, if he specifically didn't want people to kill each other with poisoned darts? Or why would God create iron if he didn't want me to fashion it into a sword and kill people? Your logic here, carried to its extreme, implies "no foul" rules for any and every possible use of our natural resources, without regard to the results. Decent arguments can be made against religion/God (and you have many good points and questions, I might add), but this, my friend, is not one of them. ;)

unicyclification

2007-12-25, 01:49 AM

I'm not talking about translations, I'm talking about actual editing of the bible. I've been told by teachers in the past that the Church has taken out sections of the bible and added in more "fitting" verses several times in the past 2000 years. If this is complete rubbish, then please educate me, but this is what I've been told, and quite frankly, it seems pretty likely to me.

This is a commonly cited argument, but the problem with it is that there is no significant manuscript evidence to back up the belief. If this editing really happened, one would expect to find some major flaws between manuscripts that have remained hidden for centuries (like the Dead Sea Scrolls) and ancient manuscripts that have been held by the church (and presumably edited). This is not the case, however. Any argument to this effect is pure speculation and not evidenced by any historical documents that I am aware of.

unicyclification

2007-12-25, 02:51 AM

And no, there is no absolute truth in which I believe in. But that's OK too.

Is it absolutely "OK" not to believe in an absolute truth? If so, then there IS in fact an absolute truth in which you believe...the absolute truth that it is OK not to believe in something your own statement ("But that's OK too") implies you do believe in.

he does not grant world peace or stop children starving to death or being abused no matter how much they might pray for it?

What about these things? Are these things evil? Although you claim not to believe in any absolute truth, your own comments seem to refute this claim.

cathwood

2007-12-25, 09:13 PM

Is it absolutely "OK" not to believe in an absolute truth? If so, then there IS in fact an absolute truth in which you believe...the absolute truth that it is OK not to believe in something your own statement ("But that's OK too") implies you do believe in it.

What about these things? Are these things evil? Although you claim not to believe in any absolute truth, your own comments seem to refute this claim.

Its not an absolute truth in which I believe but something which I chose to live by in the knowledge that there are many other things that I could live by.

I have feelings about things and speak about them as if they were truths because it is much simpler to do that. Otherwise I would make no sense.

James_Potter

2007-12-25, 09:17 PM

I got a book called The Atheist's Bible for Christmas, it's just a book of quotes basically, anyway, here's one:

Epicurus' old questions are yet unanswered. Is [God] willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Whence then is evil?

phlegm

2007-12-25, 09:31 PM

That's ironic. A "bible" for a "non-religion"?

Experts dispute whether Hume was a deist, an atheist, or something else. Hume himself was uncomfortable with the terms deist and atheist, and Hume scholar Paul Russell has argued that the best and safest term for Hume's views is irreligion. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism#David_Hume)

Mikefule

2007-12-25, 09:55 PM

Mikefule

2007-12-25, 09:58 PM

unicyclification

2007-12-25, 10:01 PM

Its not an absolute truth in which I believe but something which I chose to live by in the knowledge that there are many other things that I could live by.

I have feelings about things and speak about them as if they were truths because it is much simpler to do that. Otherwise I would make no sense.

OK, that makes more sense. I misunderstood what you were saying. So if I understand correctly, you are saying that you feel world peace is a good thing, and you feel that starving and abusing children are not good, but you could also choose to live in the knowledge that war, killing, and starving and abusing children is OK? Is that what you are saying?

unicyclification

2007-12-25, 10:15 PM

Mere sophistry.

No one ever learned anything by winning an argument.

:) Thank you. I've been searching all day for a good term to apply to my "winning argument". Now I know..."sophistry". Although if you find my "argument" misleading, please back up your thoughts with something more than terminology. ;) After all, no one ever learned anything by simply applying terminology to ideas either.

Mikefule

2007-12-26, 12:02 AM

:) Thank you. I've been searching all day for a good term to apply to my "winning argument". Now I know..."sophistry". Although if you find my "argument" misleading, please back up your thoughts with something more than terminology. ;) After all, no one ever learned anything by simply applying terminology to ideas either.

Touché.:)

Sophistry is when you use superficially clever methods and achieve the appearance of "scoring a hit" in an argument when you have in fact simply been "too clever by half". The Sophists were highly skilled orators who sought to win debates, and their techniques are contrasted in the writings of Plato with the techniques used by Socrates who was always presented as being a genuine seeker after the truth.

My point about no one ever learning by winning an argument had this in mind. The most constructive way to conduct a debate is to regard the other parties in the debate as colleagues in the pursuit of the right answer, rather than as opponents.

The term "sophistry" can to a greater or lesser degree be applied to about 38 techiques where the argument strays from the point at issue. (taking the number 38 from Robert Thouless' excellent book, Straight and Crooked Thinking, http://www.246.dk/38tricks.html).

In the case in question, I felt you were applying a very clever logical construction which gave the appearance of refuting what Cathwood had said, when really you were playing with words. I recognise it, because I do it myself for fun, and it's also a huge part of my job to look out for it when it happens.

The fair way forward was to consider what she had been trying to say, and possibly to ask for clarification. What was "unfair" (in the sense of argument technique - you weren't being unfair to Cathwood herself and she certainly wouldn't need me to defend her if you were) was that you applied a very sophisticated degree of logical analysis to expose a supposed flaw in a statement that had clearly not been presented for analysis in this level of detail.

I see, however, that Cathwood gave an excellent reply, and that you have acknowledged that.:)

johnfoss

2007-12-26, 06:37 PM

If I say I believe in LOVE, or I believe in the power of LOVE, people don't attack my FAITH. Why?Because God isn't an emotion I guess. We all have emotions, we can feel them even if we can't define or prove them. Love is also an emotion. Even if you can't define when it starts and ends, it's easy enough to project your existing emotions onto it and not doubt its existence.

If God were an emotion it would be very easy to believe in it as well. But God is usually insisted on as being all this other stuff.

Plus in your case, this week you believe in LOVE, but next week you'll believe in cheese or something. :)

That's ironic. A "bible" for a "non-religion"?Looking on my bookshelves:
- The Bicycle Builder's Bible (written by unicyclist Jack Wiley)

Hmm. I was expecting to find several other computer-related books with Bible in their titles. I think they were older ones I've "retired." Gotten rid of my "Bibles," as it were. Anyway, who's to say it's a non-religion, if it's something people believe in?

phlegm

2007-12-26, 06:54 PM

Who says bicycle building isn't a religion? :confused: ;)

cathwood

2007-12-26, 07:29 PM

OK, that makes more sense. I misunderstood what you were saying. So if I understand correctly, you are saying that you feel world peace is a good thing, and you feel that starving and abusing children are not good, but you could also choose to live in the knowledge that war, killing, and starving and abusing children is OK? Is that what you are saying?

Well, clearly some people find war, killing and abuse to be valid alternatives in life. Although I don't myself.

BillyTheMountain

2007-12-27, 02:28 AM

Because God isn't an emotion I guess. We all have emotions, we can feel them even if we can't define or prove them. Love is also an emotion. Even if you can't define when it starts and ends, it's easy enough to project your existing emotions onto it and not doubt its existence.

If God were an emotion it would be very easy to believe in it as well. But God is usually insisted on as being all this other stuff.

John,

Good for you for responding to that one.

If a person honestly says:
I have never experienced ...anger ...an orgasm ...love ...etc, how would you prove these things exist?

So many people have experienced GOD. But that is not proof enough for the others.

There's a unicyclist who said, "I been with many women, and not one of them ever had an orgasm. I don't believe in the female orgasm!"

spazdude222

2007-12-27, 05:20 AM

I got a book called The Atheist's Bible for Christmas, it's just a book of quotes basically, anyway, here's one:
The problem with that, is it ignores Free Will. If God took away the human choice to do evil things, he'd be infringing on free will. He doesn't do that, because the freedom to choose is good, regardless of how you use it.

cool-bananas

2007-12-27, 07:11 AM

uniextreme

2007-12-27, 08:07 AM

he'd be infringing on free will. He doesn't do that, because the freedom to choose is good, regardless of how you use it.

Why do you think god is a man?

James_Potter

2007-12-27, 08:09 AM

Because the Bible says it, of course.
I for one think that if there was a God, she'd be female.
Females are so much more worthy of worship than males.

phlegm

2007-12-27, 05:06 PM

Because the Bible says it, of course.

The Bible doesn't say that. "He" is just the default pronoun. Please, read it as "she" or "it" if it makes you feel better. :rolleyes:

unicyclification

2007-12-27, 06:09 PM

Well, clearly some people find war, killing and abuse to be valid alternatives in life. Although I don't myself.

I am intrigued by your responses. Thank you for taking the time to respond. This is very educational for me.

One more, if you don't mind...how do you go about the process of developing your own beliefs? I have a difficult time understanding the possibility of formulation of beliefs outside of the belief in any absolute truth. Here's what I mean--I get up every morning and go through the same daily routine (eat breakfast, go to work, tell my wife I love her, etc...) because I believe in the
"absolute truth" that the world is going to function today the same as it did yesterday. If I didn't believe that were absolutely true, I would see little reason to getting up in the morning to do anything, let alone any purpose in life. Similarly, I hold to certain ethical standards (and therefore act accordingly) for the same reason...because I believe that there is absolute truth in the world, and that the world will function today the same as it did yesterday. I just don't see how it is possible for a person to develop a belief system (which you clearly have, whether or not you consider it any more valid than any other belief system) without first assuming there is a truth on which to base those beliefs. Does that make enough sense to elicit a response?:confused:

MuniAddict

2007-12-27, 06:20 PM

John Lennon was ahead of his time in so many ways:

http://beatlesnumber9.com/biggerjesus.html

johnfoss

2007-12-27, 07:48 PM

If a person honestly says:
I have never experienced ...anger ...an orgasm ...love ...etc, how would you prove these things exist? I probably wouldn't try. But I would be interested in further study of the person to see if he/she were human. Not everyone "feels" in the same ways. Some people feel everything very intensely while others tend to me more mellow. Certain mental conditions can also interfere with feelings, or interpretations of emotions. Like being autistic. Autistic people have feelings, but they may have a hard time communicating some of them to us, or interpreting ours for themselves.

So many people have experienced GOD. But that is not proof enough for the others.Huge numbers of people have experienced emotional feelings that they associate with God. "Felt the power of God, I did!" This makes God equal to love, perhaps, a legit feeling one can have and I don't doubt it. These feelings can be part of, or the source of, ones' faith in all the "other stuff" that goes with ones' religion of choice.

One person may look at a beautiful sunset over Yosemite Valley and feel the power of God. Another may look at the same scene and be enraptured by the beauty of nature. Exact same feeling, perhaps, but with different interpretations. Neither is "wrong," but neither proves anything either though both viewers can surely agree in the beauty of the scenery.

johnfoss

2007-12-27, 08:04 PM

...how do you go about the process of developing your own beliefs?Trial and error for me. I believe in gravity for instance. So far so goo, it hasn't (failed to) "let me down" yet! :) Outside of theoretical physics, gravity is a simple example of an absolute truth. I don't know if any sports would exist without it; for unicycling it's absolutely essential.

I believe in the power of right vs. wrong. We learn a lot of this from our parents, regardless of the presence of religion in the house. Hitting your sister with a baseball bat is wrong. Cleaning up after yourself is right. Do wrong things and you will tend to be punished. Do the right thing and you are often rewarded. In this lifetime. Don't believe in an afterlife? Then you probably *do* believe at least that people will remember you after you're gone. How do you want to be remembered? Some people don't care, but if you survey them, you'll find probably a nice even mix of religions/faiths/beliefs in there. The rest of us are conscious of leaving a worthy legacy behind.

Are right/wrong absolute truths? I think not. There are always gray areas but the big stuff is obvious enough. Example of a gray area: It's legal to sell marijuana for medical purposes in California. But it's still a federal crime to do so (something like that). So is it okay to sell it for medicinal purposes in CA?

Back to the afterlife: I want to have a positive impact on the world. Why? Because I look up to people who came before me and set positive examples. Bill Jenack, the "father of modern unicycling" was a big influence on me in the world of unicycling. He donated endless hours of his time to help people learn to ride, organize them, and also organize local and national unicycling organizations (the Unicycling Society of America).

Also Floyd Crandall, an early unicycling athlete. He was known not just as a consistent champion, but he was well-liked, and always willing to help other riders. He set in my mind some of the foundations of being a good sportsman. I would rather be remembered the way people remember those guys than as somebody who, for example, made lots of money but nobody liked.

I get up every morning and go through the same daily routine (eat breakfast, go to work, tell my wife I love her, etc...) because I believe in the
"absolute truth" that the world is going to function today the same as it did yesterday. If I didn't believe that were absolutely true, I would see little reason to getting up in the morning to do anything, let alone any purpose in life.I think that's about the same for all of us. But in my case I know it's *not* an absolute truth that the world will be the same today, at least in terms of stuff that might happen to turn my world upside-down. Though it is highly unlikely something will happen to upset the rotation of the Earth around the Sun, there could be a massive disaster to screw things up locally, like an earthquake or flood, or even an asteroid strike. But you can't go around being afraid such things will happen every day, as you'd never progress in life. I have "faith" that, for the most part, today will be like yesterday. I have obligations to others, bills to pay etc.

maestro8

2007-12-27, 08:32 PM

Huge numbers of people have experienced emotional feelings that they associate with God... One person may look at a beautiful sunset over Yosemite Valley and feel the power of God.

I believe the power of (un)conscious suggestion is to blame here. Those who are exposed to the notion of God, who are susceptable to adopting a belief in God, will be a lot more likely to attribute certain experiences to God when they cannot come up with an explanation for a feeling or emotion they're experiencing.

Many people have a hard time explaining their own emotions, and many people have been exposed to the concept of "God", so it's not hard to believe why there are many that associate emotions with God.

In a vacuum, however, I don't see how a rational, thinking being would so quickly conclude that their feelings are associated with an omnipotent, omnipresent being who does not register with any of our five senses. I just can't see that leap of logic happening without some previous suggestion.

And this, folks, is why I'm voting for the Atheist party in 2008. Viva la evolucion!

phlegm

2007-12-27, 08:44 PM

One person may look at a beautiful sunset over Yosemite Valley and feel the power of God. Another may look at the same scene and be enraptured by the beauty of nature. Exact same feeling, perhaps, but with different interpretations. Neither is "wrong," but neither proves anything either though both viewers can surely agree in the beauty of the scenery.

Not only is neither wrong, both could be right. The only time we have to care about our interpretations being the actual reality is when doing science (or, really, when money is concerned ;) ). Otherwise, the more interpretations, the merrier, right?

We're not purely "rational, thinking" beings, why pretend?

unicyclification

2007-12-27, 09:18 PM

If Gods allows us freewill how come I still go to hell. (talked about this back on the first page). If freewill exists I should be able to do whatever I want. Or can God turn freewill on and off when it suits him/her/it?

Are you suggesting that there is no moral crime deserving of punishment, or just that you disagree with the severity of the sentence? Your question seems to imply that you view freewill and punishment as incompatible, but I doubt you really believe that if you give it another thought. In the USA, on a socio-political level, we also have free will (freedom) but if you commit an act which infringes on another person's rights to freedom, few people would argue that this act should simply be overlooked. While we may disagree on what punishment is appropriate, few people (in my own estimations) believe crimes like murder and rape should go entirely unpunished, without reference to God or religion. The idea of free will and freedom is to promote justice and equality for ALL people, not to establish a system whereby bullying and tyranny can rule (although this is conceivable, because technically, aren't the bully and tyrant also "free"?). My point is that as citizens of our own respective countries, we are able to understand that freedom in the truest sense is only possible with restrictions and consequences. Am I "free" to intentionally injure another person without cause? Absolutely (in any country in the world). That is a freedom and ability I have as a human (regardless of whether or not I believe in a god). Does anybody want to live in a world, though, where this type of behavior goes unpunished? Doubtfully. For society to function, freedom must be balanced. This is a fairly basic concept politically, so hopefully it's not too much of a stretch to apply it to religion.

Consider this as well...the idea of locking a child in a closet 24/7 throughout their entire childhood is disgusting to most people (again, these are my own estimations...I have not gathered official statistics:) ). Would parents who do such a thing be protecting their child from evil in the world? Yes, I suppose, but at a significant cost. But there are also great costs in letting a child go out into the world and make his own decisions. Children get hit by cars when they chase their ball into the street, they get kidnapped, they get shot in drive-by shootings, they fall into holes in the ground. And yet the parent who doesn't let their child experience the world gets accused of raising the child "in a bubble" and being "overprotective", still more qualities that many people look down on. You can't have it both ways, my friend. It's either provide ultimate protection with no free will (and an essentially meaningless existence no matter how you look at it), or ultimate free will and the potential for people to make poor choices that negatively affect others. Which world would you rather live in? A world where you are safely locked in the closet or a world where you are free and there is potential for both good and evil, and you get to experience the good things in life along with the bad? And if the idea of a world with free will is better, I would ask for more clarification in response to my question above--are you denying the need in a free society for any type of punishment, or do you just disagree with the severity of the sentence claimed by the Christian religion? Or if the argument is too simplistic and I have limited the possibilities unintentionally, what other possibilities might exist?

unicyclification

2007-12-27, 10:20 PM

Trial and error for me.

Yeah, but trial and error (along with gravity) is about science. I'm asking a little more on terms of moral beliefs, although I didn't specify because I was also curious about the science aspect. After all, saying you don't believe in any absolute truth also mean you don't accept any science as an absolute truth. My confusion over this is based on my own (possibly impaired) logic that you cannot have any beliefs, without first making some assumptions of absolute truth. As children, we believe our parents because we think that they hold absolute truth. As adults, we develop our own sense of beliefs based on something that we hold as truth...either religion, or experience, or science (or sometimes still our parents:) ). But I just don't see any possible basis or rationale for beliefs and values, without first believing in something as truth. Otherwise there would be no logical reason to choose your own belief system over another, which cathwood has done, as demonstrated by her statement:
Well, clearly some people find war, killing and abuse to be valid alternatives in life. Although I don't myself.
She has chosen a value system in which she does not find war, and killing and abusing children as valid alternatives in her life, if I have restated that correctly. So I'm very curious to learn on what basis those beliefs were developed and on what basis they were considered preferable to other beliefs, if not on the assumption of an absolute truth, and hopefully she will entertain my (perhaps pathetic) questions as she has graciously done to this point. :rolleyes:

Are right/wrong absolute truths? I think not. There are always gray areas but the big stuff is obvious enough.

This statement leaves me very confused, too. If you don't believe right/wrong to be absolute truths, then it becomes difficult, if not impossible, to speak of gray areas, doesn't it? Gray is impossible without black and white, and it would seem to me that morally speaking this would also hold true. "Big stuff" also is would not seem plausible, as it supposes there is a [absolute?] standard that differentiates big stuff from small stuff. Sorry if I'm reading too deeply into your statement.

Back to the afterlife: I want to have a positive impact on the world. Why? Because I look up to people who came before me and set positive examples.

I hope this is a sentiment that everyone can agree with. How could anyone argue with such a statement? But again, this type of statement seems to assume as absolute truth that some lifestyles are positive and some are not--that there is an ultimate sense of right and wrong in which you can have a positive impact on the world (presumably by doing some objective good) or you can have a negative impact (presumably by doing something objectively bad--although maybe I am doing to much presuming:) ).

I think that's about the same for all of us. But in my case I know it's *not* an absolute truth that the world will be the same today, at least in terms of stuff that might happen to turn my world upside-down. . . .I have "faith" that, for the most part, today will be like yesterday. I have obligations to others, bills to pay etc.

Thanks for giving me some things to think about!