Ron Paul - Will Americans Support Him?

[Danni]

I like this guy and his ideas. He has the guts to say that the US pissed people off in the middle east and got bombed (9/11). He can actually talk, and has a lot of smarts behind it. Bush is a dunce that can barely pronounce anything but "war on terror".

http://www.ronpaul2008.com/

He wants to solidify and actually follow the constitution:
-get rid of the IRS/income taxes which was never in the constitution
-do something about the government printing off money to pay for it's dept by making the dollar interchangeable with gold.
-give back the human rights that bush took away (to fight the war on blablabla).

Also,
- Encourage homeschooling and give tax refunds for parents who do home school their child.
- Anti-abortion
etc (go to his site for more)

Discuss:)

[brendan]

hes even more dangerous than bush. I mean no income tax and secure the borders some more. Sounds like someone is desperate to get elected on no real ideas.

Anyways this is no place for this discussion this is RSU.

[Danni]

Wow, I must have clicked the wrong forum. So sorry:o , can any moderators move this to JC.

*embarrassed*

[sockmonster]

This probably belongs in the "Just Conversation" forum, but I'll respond to it.

I'm a HUGE supporter of a universal healcare system that works (it's not as hard as you imagine). Most of the western world has been able to pull it off, so why can't we? I mean, if I broke my leg unicycling, I would not be able to have it fixed. I'd have to just live with it for a while because I have no insurance and no money. He would call it Health Freedom. I'm making a personal choice to have no money and no insurance. He wants me to have the right to have no other options than to work for two weeks on a broken leg until I get my paycheck.

Also, his whole idea of "American Independance" is foolish. We rely more on the international community than he seems to think.

Will Americans support him? I hope not. I certainly won't.

[wobbling bear]

<to J.C.>
Ron Paul is the perfect illustration of the adage:
"for every complex problem there is a solution which is simple, neat .... and perfectly off the mark :o ". We also have this kind of politician and they can be successful enough.
I am not against mavericks as long as they have creative skills ....
</J.C.>

[tugboat]

Get rid of income taxes, but then offer tax refunds to parents who homeschool? Sounds like he plans on breaking one of those promises...

[kington99]

Hm, take less, spend more, don't print money. Kindof doesn't work in my head.

[Gilby]

Ron Paul - Will Americans Support Him?

I sure hope so. And from what I've seen, he has the support from those that have looked into him. The challenge is getting the name out there so people know who he is and will look into him. The mainstream media ignores him so his name doesn't get out there much. When you see a candidate that wants to reinstate freedom simply by adhering strictly to the constitution, and has an impecable 30 year history to back up that position, you have to hop onboard. I've been actively supporting Ron Paul and he is the only candidate that has an active following at political events. I've never considered being involved with politics before.

Get rid of income taxes, but then offer tax refunds to parents who homeschool? Sounds like he plans on breaking one of those promises... Getting rid of income taxes means a 100% tax credit. :) I noticed that inconsistency too, and I can only guess that any tax credit would be a transition period to no taxes. The unfortunate reality is that many people are dependent on the state, so you can't just cut everything at once.

Hm, take less, spend more, don't print money. Kindof doesn't work in my head.
That's take less, spend less, and don't print.

I'm a HUGE supporter of a universal healcare system that works (it's not as hard as you imagine).
Socialism doesn't work.

Most of the western world has been able to pull it off, so why can't we? No, they haven't. There are tons of horror stories in those socialized countries. Long wait times and death from waiting. Further, with the US being the last to socialize, innovation, driven by the profit motive, will cease. Health care quality will go down.

I mean, if I broke my leg unicycling, I would not be able to have it fixed. I'd have to just live with it for a while because I have no insurance and no money. He would call it Health Freedom. I'm making a personal choice to have no money and no insurance. He wants me to have the right to have no other options than to work for two weeks on a broken leg until I get my paycheck. Your view of the world is pretty grim. Back before the government destroyed health care in the US, you would've been able to walk into one of many charitable organizations and get it taken care of for no cost to you. Humans are very compassionate people and will support charities, plus, I bet you will remember the free treatment you got and choose to donate at some later date to that charity when you have the means.

Also, his whole idea of "American Independance" is foolish. We rely more on the international community than he seems to think.
You don't understand what that means then. It means not letting the UN write our laws and not allowing incorrectly named "free trade" agreements force managed trade on us. We don't need agreements with other nations to have free trade. Just allow it to be free and let it be.

His foreign policy is to not have entangling alliances with any nation, and to be friends and trade will all nations.

[GILD]

Re-establishing the gold-standard is an interesting discussion.
Getting rid of the I.R.A, I mean S., is a move that will probably get him not-elected at best, killed at worst.
But anti-abortion?
Bizarre.

[James_Potter]

I actually really like Ron Paul a lot, even though he's a Republican and I normally don't identify as such...probably because he has a more typically Libertarian idea about how the government should be run, whichI think is sweet.

[Gilby]

But anti-abortion?
Bizarre.

He's an OB/GYN by trade and that has shaped his personal views on that.

Pro-choice people can come to grips with it in that his position is that it should be left up to the States to deal with, just like murder and most other violent acts are.

[Gilby]

I actually really like Ron Paul a lot, even though he's a Republican and I normally don't identify as such...probably because he has a more typically Libertarian idea about how the government should be run, whichI think is sweet.

The system is set up as a two party system, with laws making it impossible for third party candidates to get anywhere, so you have to choose one of them to run for, unless you are rich like Ross Perot. Do you choose the fascist party (Republicans) or the communist party (Democrats)? Always a tough choice.

[sockmonster]

Socialism doesn't work.


Yeah, there are horror stories of people dying while waiting for treatment. That's no different than the US. In fact, it's more prevalent in the United States than in Europe. There is no reason the quality of healthcare has to diminish. If you remove the insurance companies from the equation, and their truly horrifying profit margins, you can provide quality healthcare at no cost while still generously compensating healthcare workers.

Without taxing them to death, mind you.
It's attainable, it's realistic, and it's an absolute necessity

[James_Potter]

The system is set up as a two party system, with laws making it impossible for third party candidates to get anywhere, so you have to choose one of them to run for, unless you are rich like Ross Perot. Do you choose the fascist party (Republicans) or the communist party (Democrats)? Always a tough choice.
Exactly...and unfortunately many Americans don't know enough about the specifics of politics to know which one they actually think would do a better job, and only vote for the candidate of whichever party they happen to consider themselves.

[wobbling bear]

Hey what about ideas of future TV ads in a "Paulista" future?

I'll start:

" discovering there is not enough gold in the galaxy to match goods and services?
then go to Barter.com!
Barter.com the best deal you can get for your goods!
until november 1rst our special discount: two sacks of grain for your stone ax!":D

[sockmonster]

Hey what about ideas of future TV ads in a "Paulista" future?


"Now available on Barter.com, special 'signature' edition Ron Paul globes and world maps! Featuring the United States and NOTHING ELSE. Great for schools which no longer receive public funding.

Hey, it's that or nothing, right? BARTER.COM!"

[maestro8]

I actually really like Ron Paul a lot, even though he's a Republican
Don't compare him to the "Republicans" in office today. To me Ron Paul seems more like a true less-gov't more-individual-freedom Republican than any of the kooks in Washington.

What happened to the party platform?

[Gilby]

Yeah, there are horror stories of people dying while waiting for treatment. That's no different than the US. In fact, it's more prevalent in the United States than in Europe. What's your source of this "fact"?
There is no reason the quality of healthcare has to diminish. Cool, I can't wait for my FEMA run healthcare.
If you remove the insurance companies from the equation, and their truly horrifying profit margins, 3.9% profit margin. Horrible! How could they.

The high cost today is from the patient not being the payer (who therefore does not care about the cost).
you can provide quality healthcare at no cost while still generously compensating healthcare workers.
No cost? Where's the compensation come from? Your math doesn't seem to add up.

Without taxing them to death, mind you.
No death or taxes! That's basically Ron Paul's platform, eliminate the income tax, and eliminate the warfare state.

[Gilby]

" discovering there is not enough gold in the galaxy to match goods and services?
then go to Barter.com!
Barter.com the best deal you can get for your goods!
until november 1rst our special discount: two sacks of grain for your stone ax!":D It's amazing how most people think that gold limits the economy. It does not. One's own production capabilities and all raw materials limits the economy. Gold is just a medium of exchange and one of many assets one can have to save for future needs and wants. Do you hold all your assets in cash? I would hope not.

[Gilby]

"Now available on Barter.com, special 'signature' edition Ron Paul globes and world maps! Featuring the United States and NOTHING ELSE. Great for schools which no longer receive public funding.

Hey, it's that or nothing, right? BARTER.COM!"
A map with just the US on it. At the rate we are going with our imperialism, that's the way we are heading. Ron Paul wants to change that.

Why do people associate not meddling in the affairs of other nations and going to war against them as being isolationist? If we alienate everyone, isn't that isolationist? Trading and being friendly with other nations would be a much more open and international policy.

What you and your local community do for your local school is up to you, not the federal government. Don't you want control over your own community's school?

[jack-y]

I agree with him on some things but am totally against him other things.

He's seems like a regular pre-W. Bush conservative. After Dubya, anybody looks like a good candidate.

[Gilby]

He's seems like a regular pre-W. Bush conservative.
I wish the pre-W conservatives were like Ron Paul. They may have had the rhetoric, but their actions were nothing like it.

After Dubya, anybody looks like a good candidate.
All the other republicans are Dubya imitations. On the other side, the only peace candidates are Gravel and Kucinich.

[monkeyman]

It's amazing how most people think that gold limits the economy. It does not. One's own production capabilities and all raw materials limits the economy. Gold is just a medium of exchange and one of many assets one can have to save for future needs and wants. Do you hold all your assets in cash? I would hope not.

Ok, I think your argument finally just clicked for me. Are you basically saying that the worth of things/money is backed in gold, but other things can be used as currency? It seems so simple, but for some reason I wasn't grasping it until now. I feel mildly dumb.

This gold standard is one of the main reasons I'm hesitant on Ron Paul, mainly because I don't fully understand it.

[feel the light]

Well, actually it's a public to stupid to realize they are being stripped naked by war profiteers. But maybe the next election will fix that. Leaving us with the debt (close to 700 bil just for Iraq so far ). We are many trillions in the red.
Getting rid of the income tax will cut gov income income tremendously. It will need to be replaced with a consumption (sales tax).Switching to gold and silver currency will cause deflation (it always has in the past, more goods and people bidding with a fixed money supply raises the value of the gold). The last periods where we had deflation was in the early 1930's, and the 1890's. Both periods of great suffering, mass unemployment, and greatly reduced consumption. This will greatly reduce gov income from sales tax, now at both a federal and state level.
I could see this leading to a point where the gov income will be less then needed to cover the interest on the debt. So all government programs will be ended. We end Medicaid, food stamps, and SS, shortly before we default on the interest payments of the government backed bonds that pay for private pensions and annuities.:eek: Everyone defaults on their mortgages, and the banks get all the land.
Conversely, inflation makes both personal and government debt cheaper to pay off. I am not recommending 100% inflation, but as a worst case scenario, it chops, in real terms, all government debt and mortgages in half.
You know what Gilby, I think you have done the impossible. I figured I would end up voting for Hill Dog in the big election, holding my nose and dreading it. Suddenly I am glad that the country looks well on track to Clinton 2. You have convinced me that things could indeed be much, much worse. I suddenly feel so rich that I don't have to watch my neighbors starve to death while I guard my vegetable patch all day clutching a shotgun.

[GILD]

It's amazing how most people think that gold limits the economy. It does not.
It may not limit but it does inhibit.
Especially fast-growing economies.
The central bank will not be able to get additional money supply into a growing economy fast enough if they have to back it with gold first.
It's quicker and more immediate if they can 'just' print it. (Obviously with proper inflation-targets in place, blah-blah-blah)

This is one of the main arguments against the gold standard.
From a (hopefully even faster) developing country's point of view anyway.

[maestro8]

Getting rid of the income tax will cut gov income income tremendously.
You say that as if it's a bad thing. Why don't we cut out a layer or two of middle-management in the gov't at the same time... and a few three-letter agencies while we're at it... and we might come out ahead!

I could see this leading to a point where the gov income will be less then needed to cover the interest on the debt.
Okay, that's a very cynical view, but how about seeing things leading to a point where the debt becomes less than anything we'd need to worry about. If we begin our cuts by offing the IRS, DEA, ATF and a few others, pay off the debt, then cut income taxes, we're home free, no?

[Gilby]

Ok, I think your argument finally just clicked for me. Are you basically saying that the worth of things/money is backed in gold, but other things can be used as currency? It seems so simple, but for some reason I wasn't grasping it until now. I feel mildly dumb.
The worth of something is denominated in gold. Just like right now if I go to Europe, I'd pay something in euros with my debit/credit card, but I don't have euros in my account, so dollars are taken from my account and exchanged on the market for the currency they accept, the euro.

It could be anything. Let's say I have a brokerage account, hook my credit card to that and when I make a purchase it could trade a share of stock (or any other equitable asset) for whatever asset the seller wants. None of us may need gold as an asset and therefore the actual transaction may not include gold, but the purchase could be denominated in gold since that's the commonly known unit of value.

For transactions that are not electronic, using coins and warehouse receipts would be common. The reason gold and silver became common is because they were easy to coin in specific massed and they have a lot of value for a small amount. The value of the metal is based on what it can be used for, and the demand for it's use, just like the value of gasoline has a value based on it's supply and demand.

The central bank will not be able to get additional money supply into a growing economy fast enough if they have to back it with gold first. We are talking about getting rid of the central bank. At least in this country, the governments do not have the power to issue paper money. They can only coin money.

If the economy is growing fast, that means the supply of equitable assets is growing fast as well.

[Gilby]

The biggest problem with the US now is the gov debt
And when you have a system of money that is solely backed by debt, what do you think the incentives are?

Getting rid of the income tax will cut gov income income tremendously. It will need to be replaced with a consumption (sales tax).
If we bring the troops home and reduce other spending. We can reduce the spending. If we reduce spending to the levels we had in 2000, we could eliminate the income tax.

Switching to gold and silver currency will cause deflation (it always has in the past, more goods and people bidding with a fixed money supply raises the value of the gold). The last periods where we had deflation was in the early 1930's, and the 1890's.
Technically, the buying power of gold increasing isn't deflation. It's simply appreciation. A deflation can only occur as the result of an inflation and it occurs with paper money. You print more money than you have the gold to back it and you get inflation. Then when you take those extra notes out of circulation, you get deflation, and many people that are screwed because they couldn't get anything for their notes. That is the common trend in all the depressions.

So all government programs will be ended.
Cool. Those things you listed aren't constitutional anyways. What you need to grasp is that the federal governments main purpose is to protect our liberties from foreign threats. The states handle the rest. You want socialism? Keep it in your state and let people move to their preferred states. Though do your socialism without infringing on the life, liberty, or property or others.

Conversely, inflation makes both personal and government debt cheaper to pay off.
Well, not really. The new credit bids up the prices for the assets being purchased, so the loan rate may be low, but the price is higher, which means you're actually paying about the same depending on when you get in the market. The market assumes the same rate of inflation for this.

I am not recommending 100% inflation, but as a worst case scenario, it chops, in real terms, all government debt and mortgages in half. Hyperinflation would do that.
You know what Gilby, I think you have done the impossible. I figured I would end up voting for Hill Dog in the big election, holding my nose and dreading it. Suddenly I am glad that the country looks well on track to Clinton 2. You have convinced me that things could indeed be much, much worse. I suddenly feel so rich that I don't have to watch my neighbors starve to death while I guard my vegetable patch all day clutching a shotgun. I hope we don't have to see Clinton 2 bring that to us. We need someone who understands how money works to be in office when the the money system can no longer be sustained. I hope it doesn't happen with Bush still in office.

[feel the light]

So the gov abolishes the IRS and the Fed. We declare our dollar wealth no longer legal tender. Legal transactions will be expressed in fixed amounts of gold and silver, copper. Only hard currency will be issued.

1. Our gov just lost it's job of collecting taxes. We can't tax barter. And we just declared our paper currency worthless. Plus we are 5 or 6 trillion dollars in debt. Can we just totally default and say STFU to everyone in the world who is owed money by the USA. ? Maybe, we have lot's of Nuke's, and are good at telling other countries to STFU. Let's say Paul says, "Go for it, we must be free of paper money" !

2. Where do we get all the metal to make all these coins? We will need the equivalent of half a trillion dollars worth of metal, at least. Who can we buy it from? Our gov has no income, and we just declared that we will no longer print anymore money. Why would the world sell us gold when our money is worthless, we just lost our income, we just defaulted on 6 trillion dollars in debt? I bet the world will say to us, "no way you get any gold or credit from us dudes, cause you a broke crazy guy."

3 What if Kris wants to sell 1000 KH's in Europe. Does he have the right to demand they pay him in gold ? What does he do when they say no ? What if they still use fiat currency ? If we must continue to except their paper Euro in order to do business, what have we gained dumping the paper dollar ?

4 The gov's choice will be to back the dollars in circulation now, at some fixed exchange rate to the new gold dollar (metal from where ?), or abandon it. If we say we will exchange 2000 $ in paper dollars, for an oz of gold, we must continue to pay this gold for more then 30 years (as already issued bonds mature). What if we run out of gold ? We are trillions in debt now, and there is perhaps a few hundred billion in gold in the USA now at these prices. What if the world price of gold rises a great deal ?

5 What if the rest of the world doesn't elect hard coin Paulites ? They think he's crazy and act all Euro socialist on us, and go their own way. What if their fiat money economies continue the same path of exponential growth they have enjoyed for the last decades ? Yet we end up with a 3rd world rate of economic activity shared by other hard currency-barter economies ? Won't that make us their bitch ?

Transferring from our present paper money system to the gold dollar will pose more then a few problems. I think Paul is taking a page from the great Reagan's play book. Ron was big on the gold based dollar, and projecting a sense of old fashion common money logic. But once in office, he never mentioned it again.:)

[Danni]

So the gov abolishes the IRS and the Fed. We declare our dollar wealth no longer legal tender. Legal transactions will be expressed in fixed amounts of gold and silver, copper. Only hard currency will be issued.

1. Our gov just lost it's job of collecting taxes. We can't tax barter. And we just declared our paper currency worthless. Plus we are 5 or 6 trillion dollars in debt. Can we just totally default and say STFU to everyone in the world who is owed money by the USA. ? Maybe, we have lot's of Nuke's, and are good at telling other countries to STFU. Let's say Paul says, "Go for it, we must be free of paper money" !

2. Where do we get all the metal to make all these coins? We will need the equivalent of half a trillion dollars worth of metal, at least. Who can we buy it from? Our gov has no income, and we just declared that we will no longer print anymore money. Why would the world sell us gold when our money is worthless, we just lost our income, we just defaulted on 6 trillion dollars in debt? I bet the world will say to us, "no way you get any gold or credit from us dudes, cause you a broke crazy guy."

3 What if Kris wants to sell 1000 KH's in Europe. Does he have the right to demand they pay him in gold ? What does he do when they say no ? What if they still use fiat currency ? If we must continue to except their paper Euro in order to do business, what have we gained dumping the paper dollar ?

4 The gov's choice will be to back the dollars in circulation now, at some fixed exchange rate to the new gold dollar (metal from where ?), or abandon it. If we say we will exchange 2000 $ in paper dollars, for an oz of gold, we must continue to pay this gold for more then 30 years (as already issued bonds mature). What if we run out of gold ? We are trillions in debt now, and there is perhaps a few hundred billion in gold in the USA now at these prices. What if the world price of gold rises a great deal ?

5 What if the rest of the world doesn't elect hard coin Paulites ? They think he's crazy and act all Euro socialist on us, and go their own way. What if their fiat money economies continue the same path of exponential growth they have enjoyed for the last decades ? Yet we end up with a 3rd world rate of economic activity shared by other hard currency-barter economies ? Won't that make us their bitch ?

Transferring from our present paper money system to the gold dollar will pose more then a few problems. I think Paul is taking a page from the great Reagan's play book. Ron was big on the gold based dollar, and projecting a sense of old fashion common money logic. But once in office, he never mentioned it again.:)

Sales taxes (including things coming in and out of the country) will pay towards the debt, which should be sufficient if he pulls out of Iraq, end homeland security (which is absolutely useless), etc. Basically he spends way way way less, and so doesn't need income taxes.

He is not going to make the money out of gold, but you can trade in your dollar if you wish for a fixed amount of gold. The money will still be transacted in paper form, but you can go to a government building and demand that your money be changed into gold. This stops the government from printing money (for if the value of the dollar goes down, people will demand their gold), and adds stability to the currency.

[feel the light]

"He is not going to make the money out of gold, but you can trade in your dollar if you wish for a fixed amount of gold. The money will still be transacted in paper form, but you can go to a government building and demand that your money be changed into gold. This stops the government from printing money (for if the value of the dollar goes down, people will demand their gold), and adds stability to the currency." - Danni

So we set an exchange rate for the dollar, when we now are trillions in the red, and back this plan with the few billion in gold the gov owns now ? Is it not obvious that the gold will be gone in a few hours ? What would your next move be Danni ? You have cut some expenses from the budget, so what......you still have several trillion dollars in dollars and debt to convert to gold you don't have.

Next plan?

[Borges]

It may not limit but it does inhibit.
Especially fast-growing economies.
The central bank will not be able to get additional money supply into a growing economy fast enough if they have to back it with gold first.
It's quicker and more immediate if they can 'just' print it. (Obviously with proper inflation-targets in place, blah-blah-blah)

This is one of the main arguments against the gold standard.
From a (hopefully even faster) developing country's point of view anyway.
You guys own the gold mines, you should be lobbying for this. :)

If you speed up the economy by printing more money than you have assets (gold or something else) and for some reason that money isn't turned into assets, then you end up with a problem. It adds a risk of instability, and that kills long term investments.

[GILD]

You guys own the gold mines, you should be lobbying for this.

If you speed up the economy by printing more money than you have assets (gold or something else) and for some reason that money isn't turned into assets, then you end up with a problem. It adds a risk of instability, and that kills long term investments.
We suspect the mines are just about reaching the end of their lives anyway...

The instability risk is one that can be mitigated with good inflation controls. It doesn't have to kill long term investments.
No risk - no profit.

[monkeyman]

So we set an exchange rate for the dollar, when we now are trillions in the red, and back this plan with the few billion in gold the gov owns now ? Is it not obvious that the gold will be gone in a few hours ? What would your next move be Danni ? You have cut some expenses from the budget, so what......you still have several trillion dollars in dollars and debt to convert to gold you don't have.


Next plan?

Not all of our assets are in cash right now. I'm still not 100% convinced of the gold standard's validity, but this point seems obvious. If everyone tried to turn their assets into cash right now, there would be a problem. "But", you say, "that would never happen!"

Then why would it happen with the gold standard? People like their shiny, but they won't all rush to the bank to sell their car for some chunks of gold the minute we change to the gold standard.

[Gilby]

So the gov abolishes the IRS and the Fed. We declare our dollar wealth no longer legal tender. Legal transactions will be expressed in fixed amounts of gold and silver, copper. Only hard currency will be issued.
The paper money wouldn't be declared worthless. You'd just allow competition to the dollar and make gold and silver legal tender again at the free market rate.

1. Our gov just lost it's job of collecting taxes. We can't tax barter. And we just declared our paper currency worthless. Plus we are 5 or 6 trillion dollars in debt. Can we just totally default and say STFU to everyone in the world who is owed money by the USA. ? Maybe, we have lot's of Nuke's, and are good at telling other countries to STFU. Let's say Paul says, "Go for it, we must be free of paper money" !
What happens when a borrower defaults on a loan? Their property is repossed or liquidated. In my opinion, the US should not own any land outside of the 10 mile square of DC. Sell all the property they hold, which I believe is about 1/3 of the land in the US, and repay the debt.

The US does have the power to tax imports, which is the main source of revenue for the fedeal government that the constituion allows. If they do a good job, they can keep this rate low.

2. Where do we get all the metal to make all these coins? We will need the equivalent of half a trillion dollars worth of metal, at least. Who can we buy it from? Our gov has no income, and we just declared that we will no longer print anymore money. Why would the world sell us gold when our money is worthless, we just lost our income, we just defaulted on 6 trillion dollars in debt? I bet the world will say to us, "no way you get any gold or credit from us dudes, cause you a broke crazy guy."
Exchanges of one asset of real value for another of equal and real value.

3 What if Kris wants to sell 1000 KH's in Europe. Does he have the right to demand they pay him in gold ? What does he do when they say no ? What if they still use fiat currency ? If we must continue to except their paper Euro in order to do business, what have we gained dumping the paper dollar ?
KH is from Canada, but let's assume this is a US transaction. He can work out the payment with his customers. He is free to accept euros and then convert them to whatever assets he wants to store his savings in. You are not required to accept their euro, it's up to you on what you want to accept and what you want to store your wealth in. What we gain is a legal system that doesn't force any paper currency on us. Today, if you owe me a dollar, the government forces us to accept the Federal Reserve notes instead of the real thing. A dollar is defined as a specific amount/weight of silver, about 0.72 ounces, but the government is allowing you to use something that is worth much less to pay me back. Greshem's law says that you will pay me with the paper. The gov is impairing the obligation of contracts (a violation of the constitution).

4 The gov's choice will be to back the dollars in circulation now, at some fixed exchange rate to the new gold dollar (metal from where ?), or abandon it. If we say we will exchange 2000 $ in paper dollars, for an oz of gold, we must continue to pay this gold for more then 30 years (as already issued bonds mature). What if we run out of gold ? We are trillions in debt now, and there is perhaps a few hundred billion in gold in the USA now at these prices. What if the world price of gold rises a great deal ?
After selling other liquidable assets, the government can then choose to sell it's gold and silver. You'd take the total gold and silver reserves and divide it by the debt to get how much it can be redeemed for in these bills of credit. This essentially is selling the gold and silver.

5 What if the rest of the world doesn't elect hard coin Paulites ? They think he's crazy and act all Euro socialist on us, and go their own way. What if their fiat money economies continue the same path of exponential growth they have enjoyed for the last decades ? Yet we end up with a 3rd world rate of economic activity shared by other hard currency-barter economies ? Won't that make us their bitch ?
With freedom would come great economic prosperity here. Their fiat money, as long as it's not forced on us by our government at some fixed rate, would not be a danger to us. Their imperialism in which they try to force their fiat currency on us may be a problem, just like what we did to other countries with our US dollar to prop it up.

Transferring from our present paper money system to the gold dollar will pose more then a few problems. I think Paul is taking a page from the great Reagan's play book. Ron was big on the gold based dollar, and projecting a sense of old fashion common money logic. But once in office, he never mentioned it again.:) Was Reagan a sound money gold bug? I know it was during his Presidency that Ron Paul headed the committee that pushed a return to gold and silver. The banking interests won then.

The main purpose of using a commodity for the currency is that it can't be manipulated easily by government. It's value is because of what it can be used for, not because of the government forcing it's use on us. As individuals, we can choose what we keep our savings and investments in and we can choose what our contracts are in.

[Borges]

5 What if the rest of the world doesn't elect hard coin Paulites ? They think he's crazy and act all Euro socialist on us, and go their own way. What if their fiat money economies continue the same path of exponential growth they have enjoyed for the last decades ? Yet we end up with a 3rd world rate of economic activity shared by other hard currency-barter economies ? Won't that make us their bitch ?
Not Europe, China. And as it is, they're getting closer with the collar and leash.

[feel the light]

I noted today that my country is 9 trillion $ in debt. Congress voted today to allow the ceiling to be raised to about 10 trillion $. We were only 5.6 trillion in the red when GWB was put in office. Wow! The USA will have 10 trillion $ of debt obligations before any new hope arrives in 2009.

Since there is only 8 trillion dollars in gold, on earth, at it's current price, someone please explain how we could move to the gold dollar now, without defaulting on our treasury bonds ? I'm not trying to convince anyone that it is not a bat shit crazy plan, I am curious if anyone will try to explain how it is even possible.

Please note that if we default on our debt, it is not just the poor old people dependent on social security that will starve. All private pensions will go tits up as well.

Many have expressed the delusion that if the gov must make coin to produce money, this will stop us from going into debt. The delusion is that the gov has been printing dollars all this time to cover the debt. It has not. The actual amount of printed wallet dollars in existence (called M1 by economists) is about a trillion dollars or so.

When the gov deficit spends, it sells a piece of paper with a promise on it that the Federal Reserve of the USA will redeem this note in 20 years for 100,000 USD (not gold). These notes are sold at auction for way less then 100,000 $. The catch is they can't be cashed in for 20 years.

Because the entire world trusts we won't go all wing nut, and abolish the Fed and destroy our credit, these Fed bonds are counted as real money. The economist types can this M2 (the money supply that includes currency and bonded debt). This is a simplified explanation of M2. I hope it serves to explain how Ron Paul could take office with the USA 10 trillion dollars in debt, while there is only 1 ish trillion dollars of printed USD on earth.

To stop congress from deficit spending, we need a constitution amendment to prohibit that practice. They could otherwise go just as far in the red in a hard money system. As long as people buy the bonds, they will sell.

[Spoonthumb]

the fact that anyone would say that september 11 is the us governments fault makes me angry

[feel the light]

He is very good at explaining 911 in the correct way. Focusing on our own anger, as a nation, is common. Bush and Gulliani wish to exploit this for personal political gain, and to shovel trillions to the military industry.

But the reasons Paul says Bin Laden did 911 look wise to me.

If you are content to be a part of the problem of war, focus on your anger. But to be part of the solution of peace, we must focus on the anger of our enemies.

We really can't buy and kill our way out of terrorism. It is very true that US policy has greatly angered many foreigners. Bombing people has a way of doing that. Paul has been brave enough to say we should listen to our enemies and learn from them. He is not excusing Bin Laden's behavior, but rather showing how we can avoid making more people like him.
Bush- Cheny is in fact a front for the war industry. They will not kill Bin Laden if they get the chance because they need him. If he dies, how much trouble it will be for them to find-make another.

[Spoonthumb]

but appeasment wont work either...i wish that there was some middle ground beetween the 2

[TrialsUni]

Not to disrupt the major line of conversation here, or to deviate from that. But, I would vote for Ron Paul. Americans like underdog stories. Face it people, the major two parties, the corporate parties have failed us time and time again. I'd like to see the people try something new.

I think the American people could be easily convinced to let go of the good ole standard corporate parties with their smoke and mirrors and super-funded gimmickry, if only the major media would let the fuck go.

And Paul, though he's running under the rep. ticket isn't one himself is very third party in his views even though he's not a part of a third party. In a sense this is goof for him, because lots of people compaign that the third parties just fuck the vote up.

If America is really all about change as much as campaign slogans suggest, then we should really rethink electoral politics...

[monkeyman]

but appeasment wont work either...i wish that there was some middle ground beetween the 2

This is one, big, steaming pile of bullshit. Have you even read the 9/11 (http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report_Exec.pdf) Report? Do you know anything about our foreign policy?

Here's an excerpt from that (much shorter than the full report) executive summary.
In February 1998, Osama Bin Laden and four others issued a self-styled fatwa [(legal opinion relating to Islamic law)], publicly claiming that it was God's decree that every Muslim should try his utmost to kill any American...because of American "occupation" of Islam's holy places and aggression against Muslims

Are you familiar with America's foreign policy about oil? We regard any action that prevents us from getting oil as a threat to our national health, and we will take military action against that nation. Does that not seem a little wrong to you? That our government, supposedly the champion of freedom, infringes on the sovereignty of other countries because we can't get what we want?

Think about that, and then try to tell me that our government didn't indirectly cause 9/11. With the knowledge that Osama Bin Laden said that it was God's will to strike us down because of our imperialistic foreign policy, I don't know how you can honestly say that you believe that our government had no effect on 9/11.

[GILD]

Does the name Madeleine Albrig (http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1084)ht mean anything to you Spoon?

Imagine another country killing 500 000 american kids and tell me your trigger finger doesn't get just a little bit twitchy.

[idiorythmic]

In my travels last week I noticed there's a lot of support for Ron Paul in Michigan.

Judging by the number of yard signs and billboards Paul is popular in Michigan's rural areas, particularly in the eastern lower peninsula and all through the northern parts of the state.

I don't have statistics, poll results or studies to back me, but from what I've seen he's pretty well-known out in the farm districts. Does anyone else here have any observations to report?

[Gilby]

Since there is only 8 trillion dollars in gold, on earth, at it's current price, someone please explain how we could move to the gold dollar now, without defaulting on our treasury bonds ? I'm not trying to convince anyone that it is not a bat shit crazy plan, I am curious if anyone will try to explain how it is even possible.
You're still failing to see that you do not need the same amount of gold as there are other assets. Gold is a medium of exchange and it may circulate many times to pay off debts. I pay you a dollar to pay a dollar in debt I owe you, you pay someone else that dollar that you owe them, they pay me the dollar they owed me, and round we go until we are all paid off.

Like I said earlier, I think the federal government should sell most of it's land, and probably most of it's other property. It doesn't need to own any land in any of the states. They currently hold 1/3 of the land in the US. Let the States buy it, let organizations buy it (such as environmental groups!), and let citizens buy it. When the government sells something and gets the bills of credit, they use those bills to pay off their debt to the fed, and the dollar bills are then removed from circulation.

Please note that if we default on our debt, it is not just the poor old people dependent on social security that will starve. All private pensions will go tits up as well.
There is no need to default. What is the market value of a dollar? The dollar is like a share of stock in a company, it totals the value of all assets they hold and all expected future revenue (taxes, military plunder).

Many have expressed the delusion that if the gov must make coin to produce money, this will stop us from going into debt. The delusion is that the gov has been printing dollars all this time to cover the debt. It has not. The actual amount of printed wallet dollars in existence (called M1 by economists) is about a trillion dollars or so.
Government only has the power to coin money. They indirectly cause the issuance of more money and this is what is referred to as them printing money. No days, it's just an entry in a database. They have the power to borrow money as well. Lawful money is coins, fixed to standard weights and measures. In other words, they do not have the constitutional power to borrow bills of credit, or give an organization the power to counterfeit.

When the gov deficit spends, it sells a piece of paper with a promise on it that the Federal Reserve of the USA will redeem this note in 20 years for 100,000 USD (not gold). These notes are sold at auction for way less then 100,000 $. The catch is they can't be cashed in for 20 years.
No, the federal reserve will not redeem it, the US Treasury will redeem it, probably by getting another loan.

Because the entire world trusts we won't go all wing nut, and abolish the Fed and destroy our credit, these Fed bonds are counted as real money. The economist types can this M2 (the money supply that includes currency and bonded debt). This is a simplified explanation of M2. I hope it serves to explain how Ron Paul could take office with the USA 10 trillion dollars in debt, while there is only 1 ish trillion dollars of printed USD on earth.

Money Supply figures:
M0: The total of all physical currency, plus accounts at the central bank that can be exchanged for physical currency.
M1: M0 - those portions of M0 held as reserves or vault cash + the amount in demand accounts ("checking" or "current" accounts).
M2: M1 + most savings accounts, money market accounts, and small denomination time deposits (certificates of deposit of under $100,000).
M3: M2 + all other CDs, deposits of eurodollars and repurchase agreements.The M3 is the total dollars in circulation. The fed stopped reporting this figure in March 2006. 3rd parties have been calculating it and the money supply is currently about $12 trillion, and the current growth rate is 14%.

To stop congress from deficit spending, we need a constitution amendment to prohibit that practice. They could otherwise go just as far in the red in a hard money system. As long as people buy the bonds, they will sell.
I don't know if the power to borrow is a bad thing, though they have taken it to extremes and have done it in an unconstitutional manor. If there is a sudden need to spend money on something a strict interpretation of the constitution allows, then you need that power to borrow "money". Finding a lender may be a different issue and any interest rate will reflect the risk of the expenditure and may result in rethinking the action. The alternative is to tax the states a large sum, which would probably cause a sudden hardship.

[feel the light]

Is all that gold and silver currency is. Ask the average person if they would rather have a pocket of gleaming silver and gold, rather then green smudgy portraits of dead men, and it is an easy sell.:cool:

Unlike many on this forum, I am old enough to remember when all my coins were real silver and copper. Silver is very soft, and gold is even softer. They alloy gold with silver to make the gold coins harder, but they are still very soft.

When I was a child I had a coin collection. It was difficult to collect the dates of coins that were a few decades old. Not because they were scarce. Worn coins had no collector value, and remained in circulation until many years after the clad copper hard alloy coins were introduced. It was common to have half the silver coins in my pocket to have dates that had worn off. You younger folk don't have this memory, so the idea that gold and silver coins are a lasting store of value is easy to believe.:rolleyes:

From personal experience, I would say a silver coin that has been in circulation (it's job as money), will be worn to a smooth blank in 50 years or so. In the old days, the mint would melt these down and add more silver, and mint new coins. Once the mines have played out, where will this new gold and silver come from?:confused:

Because our nation is about 10 trillion in the hole, we must assure ourselves that we have a slow inflation rate. If we went to a gold dollar, and the world price of gold should appreciate 5 % /yr. , that will add 500 billion $ in real value to the debt payments we must cough up as tax payers. Adding this amount to the 400 billion dollars needed to pay interest on the debt, and the gov is shot broke over a barrel dead.:eek: Even if we hadn't got rid of the income tax (which I assume will reduce revenue).

So I think Paul mouths platitudes about abolishing the Fed and going to solid currency because he wants to get attention. Like all republicans, he is borrowing a page from Reagan's script.;)

American currency is the new gold because of several reasons.
1 It is difficult to counterfeit.
2 The USA Fed has done a good job of keeping inflation low and predictable.
3 As the worlds largest economy, there is a large supply of dollars and all businessmen world wide will accept them.

Gilby's contention that somehow the USA forces people in other countries to accept the dollar is false. Castro has been on the official outs with the USA as long as I can remember. Are we using military power to force him to honor the dollar ? :confused: No !, every effort is made by the USA to keep dollars out of Castro's hands. He has set up special "dollar stores " in Cuba. The Castro government really wants more US dollars, because they are highly prized worldwide. They are the preferred currency for the reasons stated above. I know a lot about this because I live 90 miles from Cuba , and many of my friends have gone there. The US gov has prosecuted my neighbors for spending dollars in Cuba!:eek:

Finally, is gold immune to counterfeiting ? With the many advances in energy production likely in the future, I can foresee a day when the extraction of massive amounts of these metals from sea water may be feasible, at a cost of a few dollars an ounce. Already, the diamond industry is sweating bricks. Large colored diamonds are being produced in Russia that are indistinguishable from natural diamonds currently valued at half a million $.
Should we place all our money on the bet that science won't advance ?:confused:

[Spoonthumb]

well all i can say is that you guys offically PAWNED me lol...neither of these thing did i know of...however that still doesnot excuse 9/11

[Gilby]

Is all that gold and silver currency is. Ask the average person if they would rather have a pocket of gleaming silver and gold, rather then green smudgy portraits of dead men, and it is an easy sell.:cool:

There must be a reason for that. Maybe it's because people can see the intrinsic value in the gold and silver?

You younger folk don't have this memory, so the idea that gold and silver coins are a lasting store of value is easy to believe.:rolleyes:

Circulated silver coins have about 1.5% less silver in them than uncirculated. Not a big loss. A silver dime today will buy about $1 worth of goods, which is about the same amount of buying power they had when minted.

Once the mines have played out, where will this new gold and silver come from?:confused:

There are tons of silver. If silver does become more limited in supply, then the buying power will rise, and you won't need as much of it in circulation. In other words, supply and demand balance each other out. If we then need coins of smaller values, other cheaper metals would be used, and be denominated at it's free market intrinsic value.

Because our nation is about 10 trillion in the hole, we must assure ourselves that we have a slow inflation rate.

Under a gold standard, the debt would never reach such heights. Like I said before, the federal government should liquidate it's assets it doesn't need under a constitutionally limited government.

The point of a gold standard is to ensure the government doesn't spend beyond it's means.

If we went to a gold dollar, and the world price of gold should appreciate 5 % /yr. , that will add 500 billion $ in real value to the debt payments we must cough up as tax payers. Adding this amount to the 400 billion dollars needed to pay interest on the debt, and the gov is shot broke over a barrel dead.:eek: Even if we hadn't got rid of the income tax (which I assume will reduce revenue).

If gold was expected to increase at that rate, the interest rates would be lower.

So I think Paul mouths platitudes about abolishing the Fed and going to solid currency because he wants to get attention. Like all republicans, he is borrowing a page from Reagan's script.;)

Ron Paul has been advocating sound money since the mid-1970s, and he was one of only a handful that supported Reagan's bid for President in 1976. Which script was written first? Whatever the case is, Ron Paul writes his own scripts and corporate special interests stay away because of this.

Gilby's contention that somehow the USA forces people in other countries to accept the dollar is false. Castro has been on the official outs with the USA as long as I can remember. Are we using military power to force him to honor the dollar ? :confused: No !, every effort is made by the USA to keep dollars out of Castro's hands. He has set up special "dollar stores " in Cuba. The Castro government really wants more US dollars, because they are highly prized worldwide. They are the preferred currency for the reasons stated above. I know a lot about this because I live 90 miles from Cuba , and many of my friends have gone there. The US gov has prosecuted my neighbors for spending dollars in Cuba!:eek:

I don't see any relevance to Cuba, other than that our military dominance, which has backed the dollar, has made it hard to do trade without using the dollar and therefore they demand it.

After WWII, we didn't suffer as much as most other countries, and we therefore had all the gold and the strongest military. This resulted in the Bretton-Woods agreement, which established the dollar as the world's reserve currency. The dollar was convertible to gold at a set rate of $35 per ounce, and we continued to run the printing presses. In the late 1960s, some countries were demanding exchange, and this led to the end of that pseudo-gold standard in 1971. This then caused instability in the dollar which caused OPEC to agree to accept only the dollar for oil, in exchange for military protection. Since the world needs oil, they demanded our dollars because that's the only way they could pay for it. Our military involvement in the OPEC nations, many of which are in the middle-east, caused a lot of resentment towards us there. It's a major factor in the problems we have today. Now with the Euro as a major competing currency and our current problems in the middle east, the future of the dollar doesn't look so bright. We can only use our military might overseas and overspend at home for so long, until it will collapse. It will require a tightening of the money supply, with high interest rates, to save the dollar. If they keep rates low or lower them further, we will have hyperinflation. That might be likely because those who print the money have the power. If they choose to stop printing, they those their power.

Finally, is gold immune to counterfeiting ?

Nothing is immune to counterfeiting. Paper money is the most counterfeited -- by the issuer! Why do you think a dollar bill is worth a tenth of a real silver dollar? Technology today makes detecting counterfeit gold and silver coins quite easy.

With the many advances in energy production likely in the future, I can foresee a day when the extraction of massive amounts of these metals from sea water may be feasible, at a cost of a few dollars an ounce.

Cool, so the price of anything that takes energy as an input will be cheaper. Sounds like gold will have about the same buying power, and we won't have to work as much to enjoy the same quality of living.

Already, the diamond industry is sweating bricks. Large colored diamonds are being produced in Russia that are indistinguishable from natural diamonds currently valued at half a million $.

Turning carbon into another form of carbon is a little different than discovering gold and doing it's refinement more efficiently. Carbon is one of the most abundant elements. Makes you wonder why there is a push to regulate it, in the form of CO2, today.

Should we place all our money on the bet that science won't advance ?:confused: That's not the bet being made, but no, you should never put all your eggs in one basket. The free market is the best way to to ensure the best allocation of resources. Central planning causes malinvestments.

[wobbling bear]

another tv ad for a "paulista" future:

"now that we got rid of those pesky F.D.A inspectors who curtailed innovation
people can get the medicine they want!
we, at Snake Oil Corporation, have been eager to meet people demand
and the market forces gave birth to the most cherished brand in medicine history!
Statistics prove that our customers die less often than those of our competitors!
And we'll match that with our "satisfied or your money back 10 times!"
(I you die twice we'll reimburse 10 times your expenses)"
-Alfred.E.Neumann S.O.C C.E.O-

[Gilby]

another tv ad for a "paulista" future:

"now that we got rid of those pesky F.D.A inspectors who curtailed innovation
people can get the medicine they want!
we, at Snake Oil Corporation, have been eager to meet people demand
and the market forces gave birth to the most cherished brand in medicine history!
Statistics prove that our customers die less often than those of our competitors!
And we'll match that with our "satisfied or your money back 10 times!"
(I you die twice we'll reimburse 10 times your expenses)"
-Alfred.E.Neumann S.O.C C.E.O-

Eliminating the FDA does not eliminate the legal system. The claims would still have to be proven, and all contracts honored. You just don't have the fascist organization such as the FDA preventing things from being available in the market.

[wobbling bear]

Eliminating the FDA does not eliminate the legal system. The claims would still have to be proven, and all contracts honored. You just don't have the fascist organization such as the FDA preventing things from being available in the market.
He, he: I was waiting for this very answer! so you are willing to risk the life of a loved one just to prove that the "natural selection" opered by the market will work?
forgetting history is bad: why was the FDA set up in the first place ? because people died from unfortunate corporate experiences (people marketing snake oil ... then corresponding corporations just disappearing when justice was on the trail).
This does not mean that any government agency should not be open to scrutiny or to effectiveness obligation ... but throwing the baby with the bath water is a dangerous option!
btw: why do you overuse the adjective "fascist" ? have you ever lived under a "fascist" government? We (Europeans) unfortunately have (except britain and some fortunate countries) .... and frankly you should be cautious : excessive adjectives weaken arguments ....

[Gilby]

He, he: I was waiting for this very answer! so you are willing to risk the life of a loved one just to prove that the "natural selection" opered by the market will work?

A free market would have organizations like the FDA that will certify drugs and such. Reputable stores will only sell ones certified. Reputable doctors will only prescribe drugs that are medically proven and certified.

Just because the government does it now, does not mean that the free market cannot do it with the absence of the government monopoly.

Right now, the FDA picks and chooses winners, and many more people are killed each year waiting the several years it takes the slow bureaucracy to approve new drugs and medical devices.

btw: why do you overuse the adjective "fascist" ? Fascism is the same as corporatism. The FDA is fascist over the food, drug and medical industries.

have you ever lived under a "fascist" government? Yes, the USA is a fascist country. There are different levels of fascism, and in many things we still have some freedoms, but much of what the government does is fascist in nature. Fascism favors special treatment for corporations, and socialism favors government run organizations. What you may be thinking of is totalitarian government, where every aspect is under dictatorial control. At the rate we are going here in the US, we are not far from that.

[wobbling bear]

A free market would have organizations like the FDA that will certify drugs and such. Reputable stores will only sell ones certified. Reputable doctors will only prescribe drugs that are medically proven and certified.

Just because the government does it now, does not mean that the free market cannot do it with the absence of the government monopoly..

dangerous assumptions: willing to risk anything for the sake of an idealist world of "reputability"!
if you think your governement is corrupt please come and see what happens when corporations are in charge! corruption is disguised as normal business practices.
there are whole departments in charge of handling "reputability".

[wobbling bear]

Fascism favors special treatment for corporations, .
don't you contradict here: you say that fascism favors corporations
which are the backbone of "free market" .....
or is it a slip of tongue on the many meanings of "corporation" :rolleyes:
(I find the association meaningful by the way! because fascist government did mix the two meanings voluntarily)

[Gilby]

dangerous assumptions: willing to risk anything for the sake of an idealist world of "reputability"!
if you think your governement is corrupt please come and see what happens when corporations are in charge! corruption is disguised as normal business practices.
there are whole departments in charge of handling "reputability".

You can't end corruption. The difference though, is that when government is corrupt, they force teh corruption and limit alternatives. When corruption happens in a free market, it opens up the door to competition and eventually the corrupt practices lose out to the competition.

don't you contradict here: you say that fascism favors corporations
which are the backbone of "free market" .....
or is it a slip of tongue on the many meanings of "corporation" :rolleyes:
(I find the association meaningful by the way! because fascist government did mix the two meanings voluntarily)

No. Corporatism is where a government writes legislation that favors existing players in the market and limits the entry of competition. You hear all the time about legislation that is for special interests. The best recent example of fascism/corporatism, is Haliburton. The whole military industrial complex, big pharma, federal reserve system, and others are fascist.

[johnfoss]

A free market would have organizations like the FDA that will certify drugs and such. Reputable stores will only sell ones certified. Reputable doctors will only prescribe drugs that are medically proven and certified.They don't now. How would that change?

[Gilby]

They don't now. How would that change?

Which statement is your question to?

Other certification organizations do not exist because the FDA has a government imposed monopoly.

Stores carry what the FDA approves.
Doctors prescribe what the FDA approves.

The change is that the liability will fall on the parties involved and they will have to make sure the drugs are proven, or their insurance will be too high, or other liability costs will be too high.

Here is a good explanation of how the free market will take over without an FDA: http://www.lewrockwell.com/grichar/grichar17.html

[feel the light]

The USA economy is less then 1/5 of the global economy. All countries are on paper now . Should the USA suddenly get all insane coin nostalgic, and issue solid coin dollars , we would end up needing to do business with their paper currency anyway. Our Paulist silver dollar coins could not remain in circulation amongst the paper Euro, whon, maple leaf etc.

Gresham's law states that if there are two different currencies in the market, the one with the most metal value will disappear from circulation. People will hoard the more valuable unit, and spend the other.

The USA citizen may act as if his country has all the money, and may vote in rules that the whole world must follow. But the world won't ! They already think we are retards for electing Bush... TWICE !:rolleyes: Actually the world economy is many times as large as the USA economy. Unless we were to end international trade, we must mint silver dollars for the whole of the earths economy (as we now do with paper dollars) or mint silver dollars until the country is out of gold and silver. And then be ruined.

Converting the USA to solid currency isn't just a bad idea. It is impossible!:rolleyes:

[wobbling bear]

tv ad for a "paulista" future.

"by hiring the most brilliant legal minds in Inner Mongolia Corporate Justice inc. has provided its customers the best deal they could afford: independence for the best price on the market!
Find out by yourself : bring your case to Corporate Justice inc.!
Satisfied or refunded!"

[Gilby]

The USA economy is less then 1/5 of the global economy. All countries are on paper now . Should the USA suddenly get all insane coin nostalgic, and issue solid coin dollars , we would end up needing to do business with their paper currency anyway. Our Paulist silver dollar coins could not remain in circulation amongst the paper Euro, whon, maple leaf etc.

Why not?

Gresham's law states that if there are two different currencies in the market, the one with the most metal value will disappear from circulation. People will hoard the more valuable unit, and spend the other.

Gresham's law says that bad money drives out good money. So gold and silver coins are good money, and the Euro is bad money, and you claim that will drive out our currency if we switch to gold and silver coinage. But that's incorrect. It requires the force of legal tender laws to say they must be accepted as the same. That's what happened in the 60s here when they stopped minting coins using silver. The new cupronickel quarters were accepted alongside the silver quarters. As you would expect, people would pull the silver coins out of circulation and keep the silver coins because they were worth more.

A euro is not going to be forced here as being equal to a certain amount of gold or silver. Yeah, you may need to use that currency for some international transactions, you deal with it the same way you do now, by exchanging your local currency for it at the time of purchase.

The USA citizen may act as if his country has all the money, and may vote in rules that the whole world must follow. But the world won't ! They already think we are retards for electing Bush... TWICE !:rolleyes: Actually the world economy is many times as large as the USA economy. Unless we were to end international trade, we must mint silver dollars for the whole of the earths economy (as we now do with paper dollars) or mint silver dollars until the country is out of gold and silver. And then be ruined.

I fail to see your logic. You claim that the rest of the world wont accept our ways, but we need to coin money for everyone in the world. Other countries can choose to use gold and silver as well, and they can coin their own money. If more coins are needed here, you buy more gold and silver, then mint them, and sell them. And again, there is no limit to money supply as anything that can be easily liquidated can be converted to whatever payment medium is used in a transaction.

Converting the USA to solid currency isn't just a bad idea. It is impossible!:rolleyes:

It's possible, even if you prefer to have an otherwise useless piece of paper in your hands.

[feel the light]

"I fail to see your logic. You claim that the rest of the world wont accept our ways, but we need to coin money for everyone in the world. Other countries can choose to use gold and silver as well, and they can coin their own money. If more coins are needed here, you buy more gold and silver, then mint them, and sell them. And again, there is no limit to money supply as anything that can be easily liquidated can be converted to whatever payment medium is used in a transaction."-Gilby

The rest of the world will laugh uproariously at our idiocy, should we attempt to mint gold and silver coin for the entire earth. They will cheerfully accept them (like they do the dollar now) , and hoard them, because they are the only legal tender "appreciating" (to use Gilby's preferred word for deflationary currency),dollar on earth. The only non inflationary currency on earth. Gresham's law states that this Paulistic silver coin will be hoarded.

Of the 1.5 trillion $ of USA paper dollars in existance on earth now, half are hoarded in other countries now. This cost's the USA the cost of printing high expense cloth bills, that are used to benifit the economies of other countries,
like Cuba. But at least the inflation of this money gives the USA some value feedback.

To suddenly change to a silver dollar now, we would need 20 trillion dollars in silver. Where do we get the other 19.87 trillion dollars worth of silver (at current market price) that the USA gov does not own? This is not just wing nut, it is an impossible task to even pretend to attempt.:rolleyes:

[Danni]

I understood that U.S. citizens won't circulate gold coins, but the American dollar will backed by gold. This means that if you want, you can go to a government building and demand your money be changed into a fixed amount of gold. If the government starts to print their way through bills, and the dollar's worth goes down, you can recoup your losses by demanding gold.

Buying stuff will still be dealt in the original currency.

[Gilby]

The rest of the world will laugh uproariously at our idiocy, should we attempt to mint gold and silver coin for the entire earth. They will cheerfully accept them (like they do the dollar now) , and hoard them, because they are the only legal tender "appreciating" (to use Gilby's preferred word for deflationary currency),dollar on earth. The only non inflationary currency on earth. Gresham's law states that this Paulistic silver coin will be hoarded.

Gresham's law requires legal tender laws. I think that's where you are misunderstnading it. The reintroduction of silver and gold as currency would be to use them at the free market value. An ounce of silver would not be fixed to the current bills of credit we use.

Of the 1.5 trillion $ of USA paper dollars in existance on earth now, half are hoarded in other countries now. This cost's the USA the cost of printing high expense cloth bills, that are used to benifit the economies of other countries,
like Cuba. But at least the inflation of this money gives the USA some value feedback.

Coined bullion comes at a premium because it is recognized in the market and is of known value. We don't lose anything by issuing gold and silver, because they will be coined and then sold at a premium which covers the costs of minting. If other countries want to have reserves in gold and silver, then so what, let them.

To suddenly change to a silver dollar now, we would need 20 trillion dollars in silver. Where do we get the other 19.87 trillion dollars worth of silver (at current market price) that the USA gov does not own? This is not just wing nut, it is an impossible task to even pretend to attempt.:rolleyes:

Why do we need that much silver to switch? The government doesn't need any silver or gold at all to convert. They simply would take gold and silver as payment, then use that gold and silver to make coins, and then return it in coined form after taking some of the gold and silver to cover costs.

To go to a silver and gold currency, you can't just revert back to the old fixed redemption at the same value as before. You issue gold and silver coins, eliminate all laws that make it costly to use gold and silver, such as the tax and banking laws, and let the gold and silver currency be used along side current paper fiat money. If allowed to be done in a free market, without legal tender laws fixing the values of the old and new. Eventually people will prefer to use the real money and that will become the predominate currency.

[Gilby]

I understood that U.S. citizens won't circulate gold coins, but the American dollar will backed by gold. The constitution does not give the government the power to issue paper money. They only have the power to coin money. Once they allow paper money to be issued and then backed by gold, they have teh incentive to do fractional reserve banking which means they print more money than they have to back it. That's where the inflationary and deflationary problems come in. The market can issue their own notes, and government can regulate that to ensure there is no counterfeiting.

[Gilby]

the fact that anyone would say that september 11 is the us governments fault makes me angry

Why does it make you angry? Is the US government immune from doing any wrong? Is it because you've put your trust in this government? Are we not able to look at the reality of what our foreign policy over many decades has caused?

We need to look at our policies and the effects they have from all sides and views. The facts are that we have been meddling in the middle east for a very long time militarily. That does promote hatred there against us. If we flipped the situation around and what happened to them happened here instead, we may have a tremendous hatred towards them and maybe even be tempted to carry out suicide attacks.

Here is a good YouTube video showing the sentiment towards us of our current war there: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzIPSGhooP4

Here is an article from today: Report says war on terror is fuelling al Qaeda (http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSL037906320071007)

[Gilby]

Here is a good interview of Ron Paul where he goes into depth about money: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1045924545087333822

Oh, and this viral one is good, with 9898 diggs so far: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FG2PUZoukfA

[Buddy]

I went to Austin's Ron Paul Rally commemorating the Boston Tea Party and someone posted a bunch of pictures on youtube and I'm in one of them on my uni. Thought I'd share. 1:10 (http://youtube.com/watch?v=F9F0V89hUGk)

[MuniAddict]

<<Ron Paul - Will Americans Support Him?>>

No chance in hell.:rolleyes: In the same boat: Alan Keyes, Duncan Hunter, John McCain (Rino), Tom Tancredo.

[Gilby]

<<Ron Paul - Will Americans Support Him?>>

No chance in hell.:rolleyes: In the same boat: Alan Keyes, Duncan Hunter, John McCain (Rino), Tom Tancredo.

And just how good are you at predicting these types of things?

[MuniAddict]

And just how good are you at predicting these types of things?Edit: We'll just have to wait and see I guess. :)

[nick]

Edit: We'll just have to wait and see I guess. :)

Where are the Kucinich supporters?

DK FTW!

[Spoonthumb]

i like most of this guys idea's, but i just dont agree with the fact that he's blaming the government for 9/11 thats like saying that its your fault that you go shot because you flipped off a gangbanger (i relize that the government hasn't done everything regarding the middle east right in any respect, i just think its ridiculous to blame that kind of mistake (pissing off ppl in the middle east) for a blatant attack) its like saying 2 wrongs make a right...

i apologize for my poorspelling/grammar im kinda in a hurry...

[Gilby]

its like saying 2 wrongs make a right... He's not justifying it. He's just explaining the cause and proposing a change of foreign policy to prevent such events in the future.

[nick]

i like most of this guys idea's, but i just dont agree with the fact that he's blaming the government for 9/11 thats like saying that its your fault that you go shot because you flipped off a gangbanger (i relize that the government hasn't done everything regarding the middle east right in any respect, i just think its ridiculous to blame that kind of mistake (pissing off ppl in the middle east) for a blatant attack) its like saying 2 wrongs make a right...

i apologize for my poorspelling/grammar im kinda in a hurry...

It's not like flipping off a gangster, it's more like sticking your hand into a beehive to steal all the honey, and then getting stung.

Or to use the gangster analogy:

You sold guns to a rival gang for years and years, and then you had sex with his mother, and then you keyed his car, and then you fliped him off and then he shot you.

I'm certianly not defending the 9/11 attacks. Innocent people died in the towers. I am saying that the American governemnt screws people, countries, factions, etc, over all the time, so it's not hard to see why the attacks took place.

[Danni]

Yes, there is a reason why a lot of people hate the US.

[Spoonthumb]

^^^^cause of the gangsters :D

i know thats what i hate about it...

[Danni]

What about that you enter foreign countries and put military bases where you wish? If anyone else did that to the US, they would nuke them back to the stone age. Just look at Cuba in the cold war, holy shit.

[Into the blue]

Just look at Cuba in the cold war, holy shit.

DRIVE THIS BUS TO CUBA!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkVEif0WKoQ&feature=related

[UniBrier]

Ron is still running. (http://www.slate.com/id/2175817/?GT1=38001)
After a month and a half off the trail, Ron Paul is back in action. We last saw Paul in his home state of Texas rallying University of Texas students in Austin. But since then, he slunk away from the presidential circuit to fight off a primary challenger in his home district on March 4. He won that battle but lost the presidency to John McCain in the meantime. ...

[Gilby]

It's not over. His new book is coming out soon. The Revolution: A Manifesto. (http://www.amazon.com/Revolution-Manifesto-Ron-Paul/dp/0446537519/) His run for president was just the beginning. While he may not get the Republican nomination, the revolution has been given a huge kickstart. Freedom can prevail.

[Gilby]

In MN today, 3 congressional districts had their conventions and Ron Paul swept house for delegates to the national convention in all 3. :) Though in one it's questionable on if they are bound to vote for McCain. It was a weird motion there.

[Gilby]

In MN today, 3 congressional districts had their conventions and Ron Paul swept house for delegates to the national convention in all 3. :) Though in one it's questionable on if they are bound to vote for McCain. It was a weird motion there. It made our newspaper: http://www.startribune.com/politics/national/president/17374639.html