Ron Paul - Will Americans Support Him?

[Gilby]

The battle will be because everyone will be walking around the convention carrying concealed handguns, and standing their ground against the Republicans in Florida, as FL law allows.:p

I didn't see a single gun at the MN GOP convention.

[MuniAddict]

Current Delegate Count:


Mitt Romney 1,065
Rick Santorum 253
Newt Gingrich 131
Ron Paul 119

[Gilby]

Current Delegate Count:


Mitt Romney 1,065
Rick Santorum 253
Newt Gingrich 131
Ron Paul 119


So you know how to copy what the MSM tells you. Good for you on being a sheep.

Why is that so different from the real delegate count:
Willard Mitt Romney: 541
Ronald Ernest Paul: 186
Richard John Santorum: 143
Newton Leroy Gingrich: 24
TBD at State Conventions: 1392

It's different because the MSM is projecting based on the straw poll votes. With 1144 needed to win, it's still anyone's race.

[MuniAddict]

...it's still anyone's race.Anyone? In that case, maybe Herman Cain can still win! :D

[BillyTheMountain]

I didn't see a single gun at the MN GOP convention.

MN laws are very different from FL laws, but since they are "concealed weapons," you need your x-ray vision to see them anyway;)

[Gilby]

Anyone? In that case, maybe Herman Cain can still win! :D

Yes he can.

I don't think you understand how the RNC works. It doesn't matter what happened in the primaries. The delegates at the RNC endorse the candidate, it's up to them, and it could be anybody... maybe even Jeb Bush, because we can always use more bush in the white house. :eek:

[MuniAddict]

because we can always use more bush in the white house.[Almost] Anyone would be a helluva lot better than the Marxist we have now!

[Gilby]

Anyone in the GOP would be a helluva lot better than what we have now!

What exactly would change? I see no difference between Romney and Obama, or Bush and Obama. I simply see the president as the PR department of the criminal protection racket, as well as someone for the criminal protection racket to blame for the problems they cause.

[maestro8]

Marxist

Your troll is sticking out. Might wanna tuck that in... it doesn't look very good.

I don't like Obama myself, but I can express that dislike without resorting to loaded, misapplied words.

[johnfoss]

...we can always use more bush in the white house.Eww and eww. Though I think we'd do better with Jeb than with his brother.

[Gilby]

Anyone? In that case, maybe Herman Cain can still win! :D

Herman Cain may even be getting a clue. Apparently 1/4 of his new book is dedicated to the gold standard. He's probably pandering to the Ron Paul supporters, but at least he is getting some of it right: http://www.examiner.com/article/herman-cain-learned-from-ron-paul-and-is-calling-for-a-return-to-a-gold-standard

[wobbling bear]

[Almost] Anyone would be a helluva lot better than the Marxist we have now!
hail to the chief Marx (http://www.businessweek.com/lifestyle/thierry-marx-french-paratrooper-turned-celebrity-chef-08232011.html)

[MuniAddict]

Romney only needs about 1/3 of Texas delegates to become the GOP nominee. If Texas does put Romney over the top, it will be an especially bitter defeat for Paul, to lose in his own state, even though Paul is no longer "competing" in primaries.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18255192

[MuniAddict]

Romney Clinches GOP nomination. (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-57443312-503544/cbs-news-romney-clinches-gop-presidential-nomination/)

[maestro8]

Romney Clinches GOP nomination. (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-57443312-503544/cbs-news-romney-clinches-gop-presidential-nomination/)

FTA: "CBS News estimates that Mitt Romney has earned the necessary delegates"

[Gilby]

Nobody has won Texas yet, and therefore Romney hasn't won the nomination yet. Texas has 155 delegates, with 108 being elected at the congressional conventions, and 34 at the state convention.

Reality Check: Did Mitt Romney Really Secure GOP Nomination With Texas Win? - YouTube

[MrBoogiejuice]

[Almost] Anyone would be a helluva lot better than the Marxist we have now!

At a stretch you could call Obama a Keynesian since he's engaged in some deficit spending and economic stimulus, but then Bush engaged in far more bailing out of bust businesses than Obama has so is he a marxist as well?

It's worth reading a bit of Marx - his politics might not be up your street but some of his analysis of capitalism is actually pretty useful in understanding the current financial crisis - perhaps more so than Adam Smith's.

After all, Marx always insisted crisis was inherent to capitalism whereas Smith believed markets tended towards equilibrium. From where I'm standing it's pretty obvious who was closer to the mark.

[Gilby]

At a stretch you could call Obama a Keynesian since he's engaged in some deficit spending and economic stimulus, but then Bush engaged in far more bailing out of bust businesses than Obama has so is he a marxist as well?

As Nixon said, we're all Keynesian's now. Nixon is the one that delinked gold from the dollar. Are you equating Keynesianism to Marxism?

Obama Keynesian? Obama Is Not A Keynesian, He's An American! - YouTube

It's worth reading a bit of Marx - his politics might not be up your street but some of his analysis of capitalism is actually pretty useful in understanding the current financial crisis - perhaps more so than Adam Smith's.

After all, Marx always insisted crisis was inherent to capitalism whereas Smith believed markets tended towards equilibrium. From where I'm standing it's pretty obvious who was closer to the mark.

I assume, you're saying capitalism is the problem and marxism is the solution? However, if we're living in a Keynesian society, which you equate to being Marxism, then how exactly does the current financial crisis make it obvious that Marxism is closer to the mark?


Since this is the Ron Paul thread:
Now, they’re blaming capitalism for all these problems with not enough regulation. We’ve had crony capitalism. We’ve had inflationism, corporatism, big government. We’ve had no… we’ve not had true free market capitalism.

So we have to define it. Somebody asked me what individual is the cause of this problem? I would put them all in the shoulders of Keynes.

Found in this interview:
Ron Paul Predicted The Collapse In 2003 - Morning Joe 5/15/2009 - YouTube

So, while Marx explains that the business cycle is just inherent in capitalism, the Austrian school of economics explains how the business cycle comes about through the manipulation of the money supply and interest rates. Here is a good primer: http://mises.org/daily/4390

[MrBoogiejuice]

As Nixon said, we're all Keynesian's now. Nixon is the one that delinked gold from the dollar. Are you equating Keynesianism to Marxism?

Absolutely not. Keynes abhorred Marx, and I'm pretty certain Marx would have been pretty dismissive of Keynes. I was trying to show how silly it is to label someone like Obama, whose economic ideas are barely left-leaning, as a Marxist. Particularly when it seems pretty evident that if someone's able to make a statement like that they've read neither Marx or Keynes.

I assume, you're saying capitalism is the problem and marxism is the solution? However, if we're living in a Keynesian society, which you equate to being Marxism, then how exactly does the current financial crisis make it obvious that Marxism is closer to the mark?

We're not living in a Keynesian society either in the US, or the UK. A bit of stimulus a Keynesian doth not make, and I would never equate Keynesianism with Marxism.

Although it may be difficult to get your head around, it is actually possible to find value in the ideas of people you're not ideologically joined with at the hip with. I wouldn't ever be silly enough to believe that just one thinker from a century hence has all the answers to the modern economic quandries we're facing. I find Marx's ideas on the over-accumulation of capital and the importance of the rate of profit to capitalist economies a useful prism through which to look at our current crisis.

On the flip-side I have issues with his Labour Theory of Value, a pretty central plank of his thinking, not to mention the issues I have with his belief in the need to build revolutionary parties with the intention of seizing the levers of state power. Other people I've been drawn to in trying to understand our current situation are people like Jevons, Minsky, Steve Keen, Michael Hudson, John Bellamy Foster and even a lot of stuff that ends up on sites like Zero hedge can be handy to help understand certain dynamics.

So, while Marx explains that the business cycle is just inherent in capitalism, the Austrian school of economics explains how the business cycle comes about through the manipulation of the money supply and interest rates. Here is a good primer: http://mises.org/daily/4390

Have you ever seen the size of just the first volume of Capital? Marx's analysis of capitalism's dynamics were a bit more detailed than that, but it's always difficult to debate things like this without presenting caricatures of people's positions.

[Nurse Ben]

Gilby,

Do yourself a huge favor and copy/print your comments, then set them aside for twenty years; it will be a humbling experience to see what you though back in the day....

I did this and it was more than humbling, kinda scary really, but the problem with this is that I don't really understand my young self now that I've gotten old :rolleyes:

Democracy as gang rule, as if any management system can be "fair for all"

Democracy as A protection racquet, but then for the protection of whom?

Living the golden rule, but with plenty of weapons just in case anarchy gets violent.

So let's say that we get anarchy, the govt falls, it's each person for themselves. Okay, I'll play, in this scenario i see the collapse of contmeporary society, so my question for you is what skill set do you have that this new society will value?

Can you build or maintain structures?
Do you know how to work on machines?
Do you know any medical practices?
Are you an expert at arms?
Can you grow food?
What will you do when the "protection racquet" falls?

Maybe you are one of the ones being protected? Be careful what you wish for...

[leo]

Obama Keynesian?
It is true, because his only birth-certificate that I saw says so;
he was born in a hospital with a name that that hospital got many years after his birth...

[Nurse Ben]

I was trying to show how silly it is to label someone like Obama, whose economic ideas are barely left-leaning, as a Marxist. Particularly when it seems pretty evident that if someone's able to make a statement like that they've read neither Marx or Keynes.

How silly is it to label someone as a being in a certain economic camp when they neither have the training nor the experience to practice economics? Don't confuse political decisions with economic decisions, few politicians are well versed on theoretical economics, they rely on their support staff to fill in the gaps in their knowledge. But in reality, do politicians really make decisions based on economic theory?

Isn't this what pisses Gilby of the most, that decisions are being made for political vs economic reasons, that politicians act out of obligation vs rational decision making? How can a politician do the right thing, even a lame duck has a future, and being human and soon to be unemployed, a politician is going to make decisions that guaranteen a future for them and theirs.

Can humans even be trusted to car for themselves? Isn't that why govt evolved, to protect us from ourselves? Do we need to govt to keep law and order or have we evolved enough in the past two hundred years (fifty) that we can do without? What happens to society when the rule of law is surrendered to the rule of might? Would those results be any different in a country like the USA vs Somalia?

Gilby, I am curious about your world view and what you envisions as a perfect future, I just haven't been able to piece it together from your comments. Can you write it out and publish it here as your "manifetso", without using video and quotoes from other people?

[MrBoogiejuice]

How silly is it to label someone as a being in a certain economic camp when they neither have the training nor the experience to practice economics? Don't confuse political decisions with economic decisions, few politicians are well versed on theoretical economics, they rely on their support staff to fill in the gaps in their knowledge. But in reality, do politicians really make decisions based on economic theory?


Fair point - There's a quote from Keynes referring to politicians and their economic advisers: "Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.”

And there was a British prime minister, I forget which, who said something like: "give me a one armed economist to advise me so that when I ask his opinion he can't say: 'well, on the one hand...'"

I wouldn't say that the economic decisions taken by leaders are completely divorced from ideology/theory though. Look at the Obama's appointments to treasury posts etc. - they're pretty strong idealogues, all. And in the UK our PM and chancellor are both pretty well blinded to reality by their own Tory ideology. I think it's often the case that those heavily attached to certain economic ideas do as much as they can to gain and retain privileged access to, and influence over, those with the reins of power and shape policy through their lobbying. Often I think whilst those being lobbied are unaware of the theoretical underpinnings and potential ramifications of the policy prescriptions being hawked to them.

[Gilby]

Obama Keynesian?
It is true, because his only birth-certificate that I saw says so;
he was born in a hospital with a name that that hospital got many years after his birth...

Oh no... I better take a look at my birth certificate and find out what economic school of thought is on it.

[MuniAddict]

Ron Paul - Will Americans Support Him?

Nope, and that also goes for his son, Rand (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/election-2012/post/rand-paul-endorses-mitt-romney/2012/06/07/gJQAKywTMV_blog.html), who has endorsed (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhGVmHBZH14) Mitt Romney:

"Well, you know, my first choice had always been my father... He is still my first pick. But now that the nominating process is over, tonight, I am happy to announce I am supporting Governor Romney."

[BillyTheMountain]

Isn't this what pisses Gilby of the most, that decisions are being made for political vs economic reasons, that politicians act out of obligation vs rational decision making?

Every US Senator and Congressman belong to the 1%.

In order to make more wealth flow to them the top 1%, they make political (i.e., power) decisions that have economic consequences. Mostly, those decisions have excellent consequences for the wealthiest 1%.

That is why the economic worth of the middle class has one down hugely, while that of the wealthy has increased hugely. This makes a bigger gap between us and them.

[harper]

This makes a bigger gap between us and them.

Am I an "us" or a "them?" I think I might be the 17% or so. I feel so lonely here. Can I go outside and occupy 16th Ave NW in front of my house?

[BillyTheMountain]

Republican Presidential Candidate Romney is a smart investor. One of his investments paid enough last year, that he gave each of his 5 sons $500 million, and paid the taxes on it for them. many of the bankers responsible for the mortgage crisis each got $1 million bonuses.

How many $ million did you get from your dad last year?

How many $million was your bonus for doing a bad job?

[maestro8]

million... million... million...

Billy, let me introduce you to the concept of proportions.

If you had a cup of Coke and you wanted to share half with me, you'd divide your Coke into two equal amounts. That would be a proportion of 1/2 what you had originally.

Finances often work in proportion... such as the bonus system. If I'm making $200k a year, and I am promised a bonus of 1/10, I get a check for $20k at the end of the year.

The 1/10 doesn't mean $20k, it means that my original salary is split into ten equal amounts, and I get one of those tenths. So if you're a banker making $10 million a year, a $1MM bonus is the EXACT SAME 1/10 bonus as what I got.

So if I get a 10% bonus, and the bankers get a 10% bonus, and Romney gets a 10% return on his investment (my 401k made 15% last year, BTW), then what's the big deal?

[harper]

How many $ million did you get from your dad last year?



My dad's dead. Thanks for reminding me just before fathers' day. Gee, Billy, what kind of liberal are you? Hate is not a family value...it takes a village.

[BillyTheMountain]

http://www.google.com/url?url=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DCEjchyWrKmg&rct=j&sa=X&ei=6G0AUIPTNKfd6wHor-zmBg&ved=0CFkQuAIwBA&q=corporate+welfare+2012&usg=AFQjCNHcsOLvnxB97LTZActY7xvq1zYKKA

[maestro8]

...

[harper]

maestro8 wants welfare for the rich, but Ron Paul is against it ....

Jason, I had no idea. I used to respect you until Billy told me the TRUTH about you.