Make your own Sentencing Guidelines for Crimes

[BillyTheMountain]

Assume First Offense, No Prior Criminal Record, Adult, No unusual extenuating circumstances.

How much time would you sentence for the following crimes?

Murder:
Manslaughter:
Criminally Negligent Homicide (killing someone by accident while driving drunk)
Rape
Statutory Rape (18 year old girl with her 16 year old boyfriend, his parents press charges)

Shoplifting
Burglary
Robbery of person
Bank Robbery

Sale of Cocaine (1 ounce)
Sale of Heroin (1 ounce)
Sale of Marijuana (1 ounce)

Possession of Cocaine (1 ounce)
Possession of Heroin (1 ounce)
Possession of Marijuana (1 ounce)

Marriage fraud (helping an immigrant become a citizen)
Telephone harassment (leaving a telephone message angrily calling the person dirty names)

Go.

[monkeyman]

25 years-life
I've never been exactly sure of the difference between manslaughter and homicide. So...pass.
5-25 years
Life in prison; no parole
In my justice system, this would not exist. Let people make their own mistakes...if it's consensual, it's not rape.

I'm combining all of the robbery into one thing...I can't instantly think of a reason to separate them...convince me otherwise if you disagree. I would set a minimum of 3 months for smaller offenses, and no matter the degree, the stolen goods must be repaid. If it puts you into bankruptcy, too bad.

There would be no drug laws, therefore no prison sentences

I fail to see why the government should have any say in who I marry. No law.
Oh boo hoo, someone got called a nasty name. If it's not continuous (calling someone while ticked off once is understandable...calling them 8 times in 3 days isn't), and it's not threatening, there would be no sentence. If it were truly harassment or threatening, then 1 week minimum, just for cooling off time.

[dudewithasock]

I've never been exactly sure of the difference between manslaughter and homicide. So...pass.

I think that manslaughter, due to its full name 'involuntary manslaughter', is when someone dies by your actions but you had no willful intent to kill that person. I think mostly it's in vehicular manslaughter. Usually the consequences are less severe than for a homicide.

[monkeyman]

So what's the difference between that and criminally negligent homicide?

[dudewithasock]

So what's the difference between that and criminally negligent homicide?

From the sound of it, not much. It's all just semantics in that rulebook anyway.

[James_Potter]

I basically agree with Alex on most of 'em...except for manslaughter I think there would be no charge. Because, if you hit someone with your car because they ran out in front of you without looking, you'd already feel guilty enough, no punishment is going to fix anything. Since there's really nothing to fix, it was no one's fault, it was nothing but an accident.

[dudewithasock]

I basically agree with Alex on most of 'em...except for manslaughter I think there would be no charge. Because, if you hit someone with your car because they ran out in front of you without looking, you'd already feel guilty enough, no punishment is going to fix anything. Since there's really nothing to fix, it was no one's fault, it was nothing but an accident.

The usual reason for that is a DWI...which I think should be punished.

[forrestunifreak]

The usual reason for that is a DWI...which I think should be punished.

Driving While Influenced? Isn't that the same as DUI?


And yeah, me too.

[Buddy]

Driving While Intoxicated compared to Driving Under the Influence. I'm pretty sure they're the same thing.

[Gilby]

Intoxicated is when you are legally drunk. Influence is when you have some in your system.

[Buddy]

Woah, that makes sense. I never thought about that. Thanks Gilby.

[unisteez]

Statutory Rape (18 year old girl with her 16 year old boyfriend, his parents press charges)


i think the boy deserves a high five.
maybe a cookie.

[wickedbob]

i think the boy deserves a high five.
maybe a cookie.

I totally agree. He should be awarded something that is if she is hot. Also some condoms to go with that cookie safe side.


On the other hand if it is like a 25 year old dude/chick with like a 14 year old boy/girl I believe some action should be taken. Where exactly do you draw the line in age? I mean if one is 17 or something like yeah not to big of a deal to most, but where do you draw the line? There has to be some where. Also what if the boy/girl was tricked some how or what if physiological devices(for lack of a better word-not actual things like brain controllers for the de-de-de's) came into play (Would that even count as Statutory rape then?-excuse me for my ignorance on this subject I am not the most knowledgeable person by far). What age do you think a person should be to give their own consent?

[monkeyman]

This is a hard subject to deal with, because it deals with a set of values that are so vastly different. Some parents exercise (or attempt to exercise) vast control over their child's sex life, others let their child experiment and make their own mistakes. I think the only fair option is to put the power in the hands of the parents who, as much as some hate to admit it, have control over their kids and their well-being. The decision as to whether what is occurring is "good" or "bad" should be left up to the parent.

If the parents decide that what is going on is inappropriate, they should be able to file charges, or take some sort of legal action to defend their child from what they see as an injury. Of course, it's not hard to envision an overprotective (by today's standards) parent freaking out over an 18 year old kissing their 16 year old...I don't think many of you would argue that the 18 year old deserves legal action for a goodnight kiss, so some form of warning may be needed.

But, of course, you don't want to simply warn someone who has just seriously molested your child, so we're now back to where we started. With our own personal values of what is right and wrong, and no fair way to put them into law.

Hmmm...what do y'all think?

[wickedbob]

I agree with most of that, but what if the parents are not active in their childs life should anybody else have a say?

[James_Potter]

The usual reason for that is a DWI...which I think should be punished.
I agree, DWI and DUI both should be punished, but separately from manslaughter if that occurs...because, after the hangover, you'll feel like sh^t after realizing what you've done....

[ivan]

Just kill everyone. You'll solve so many problems including poverty, overpopulation and teenage pregnancy.

[puresyn]

Murder - Instant DP (Death Penalty)

Manslaughter - Punishable by Death Penalty.

Criminally Negligent Homicide - Punishable by Death Penalty

Rape - Punishable by Death Penalty / Castration / Public Stoning / 9" Q-Tip crammed into Perpetrators wiener as lesson

Statutory Rape - 30 Days Community Service and Barred 300 yards from any High school

Shoplifting - Restitution @ Double. 30 Days Community Service

Armed Robbery - Instant DP

Sale of Narcotics - Instant DP

Possession of Narc - Mandatory SAP. And they shave your pet and family.

Marriage Fraud - Citizenship Revoked

Telephone Harassment - Possible DP

[uni57]

I agree, DWI and DUI both should be punished, but separately from manslaughter if that occurs...because, after the hangover, you'll feel like sh^t after realizing what you've done....And then they'll go back out and do it again (drive drunk). At least some people will. Punishment must be an effective deterrent.

[mcnuggets300]

Murder: 15 years - life
Manslaughter:5 years
Criminally Negligent Homicide (killing someone by accident while driving drunk) at least 3-4
Rape: 6 least
Statutory Rape (18 year old girl with her 16 year old boyfriend, his parents press charges) Lucky dude

Shoplifting : none (depends what they be takin
Burglary: 18 months
Robbery of person: mugging? 2 years
Bank Robbery: 4 yars

Sale of Cocaine (1 ounce) 6 months
Sale of Heroin (1 ounce) 1 year
Sale of Marijuana (1 ounce) 3 months

Possession of Cocaine (1 ounce) 3 months
Possession of Heroin (1 ounce) 4 months
Possession of Marijuana (1 ounce) let em go

Marriage fraud (helping an immigrant become a citizen) no law, marry, i dont care
Telephone harassment (leaving a telephone message angrily calling the person dirty names) OH TEH NOES! if it continues, then i guess a month or two

Murder - Instant DP (Death Penalty)

Manslaughter - Punishable by Death Penalty.

Criminally Negligent Homicide - Punishable by Death Penalty

Rape - Punishable by Death Penalty / Castration / Public Stoning / 9" Q-Tip crammed into Perpetrators wiener as lesson

Statutory Rape - 30 Days Community Service and Barred 300 yards from any High school

Shoplifting - Restitution @ Double. 30 Days Community Service

Armed Robbery - Instant DP

Sale of Narcotics - Instant DP

Possession of Narc - Mandatory SAP. And they shave your pet and family.

Marriage Fraud - Citizenship Revoked

Telephone Harassment - Possible DP
Now THATS dictatorship at its finest! :rolleyes:

[JJuggle]

Off the top of my head:

Murder: A fairly long time
Manslaughter: A little less time than the above
Criminally Negligent Homicide (killing someone by accident while driving drunk): Somewhere in between the two above
Rape: A fairly long time
Statutory Rape (18 year old girl with her 16 year old boyfriend, his parents press charges): None.

Shoplifting: Community service of some sort
Burglary: Serious community service, perhaps some time
Robbery of person: A while
Bank Robbery: Definitely some time

Sale of Cocaine (1 ounce): Community service, a face-to-face sit down with a family that has lost a loved one to drug addiction, and a real job
Sale of Heroin (1 ounce): ditto
Sale of Marijuana (1 ounce): ditto minus the sit down

Possession of Cocaine (1 ounce): Community service
Possession of Heroin (1 ounce): Community service
Possession of Marijuana (1 ounce): You're joking, right?

Marriage fraud (helping an immigrant become a citizen): The sex has to be bad.
Telephone harassment (leaving a telephone message angrily calling the person dirty names): Socratically styled weekly hour long phone conversations with BTM on the subject of his choice.

[BillyTheMountain]

I'm combining all of the robbery into one thing...I can't instantly think of a reason to separate them...convince me otherwise if you disagree. I would set a minimum of 3 months for smaller offenses, and no matter the degree, the stolen goods must be repaid. If it puts you into bankruptcy, too bad.

Monkey: The impact on the victim varies, and that is often taken into consideration when sentencing. Also the level of confrontation, how much the victim was scared, how much our entire financial system depends on banks NOT being robbed, etc. So shoplifting is usually much less than bank robbery, even if the amounts (shoplifting a 10,000 gown or jewelry) is more than the bank robber usually gets.

So what's the difference between that and criminally negligent homicide?

I think it becomes homicide because it was during the commission of another felony, like drunk driving, or really excessive speeding, which you are responsible for. Not just being distracted.


Statutory Rape - 30 Days Community Service and Barred 300 yards from any High school

Possession of Narc - Mandatory SAP.

SHe goes to high school with her boyfriend. She has to drop out, and become a burden to society??

What's SAP??


Murder: A fairly long time
Rape: A fairly long time.

Same punishment for rape as murder??? Interesting.

[monkeyman]

Puresyn, I really hope you're kidding.


Monkey: The impact on the victim varies, and that is often taken into consideration when sentencing. Also the level of confrontation, how much the victim was scared, how much our entire financial system depends on banks NOT being robbed, etc. So shoplifting is usually much less than bank robbery, even if the amounts (shoplifting a 10,000 gown or jewelry) is more than the bank robber usually gets.
Ok, so put the shoplifting at 3 months minimum, and the bank robbery at a year minimum. Both require reimbursement.

[BillyTheMountain]

Puresyn, I really hope you're kidding.


Ok, so put the shoplifting at 3 months minimum, and the bank robbery at a year minimum. Both require reimbursement.

Why not require reimbursement for other crimes?

[dudewithasock]

Murder - Instant DP (Death Penalty)

Manslaughter - Punishable by Death Penalty.

Rape - Punishable by Death Penalty / Castration / Public Stoning / 9" Q-Tip crammed into Perpetrators wiener as lesson

Shoplifting - Restitution @ Double. 30 Days Community Service

I agree with the above-quoted ones, especially the rape punishments...I have absolutely no sympathy for rapists, as that is, in my eyes, the worst crime someone is able to commit.

Marriage Fraud - Citizenship Revoked

That one made me laugh.

[Into the blue]

Telephone harassment (leaving a telephone message angrily calling the person dirty names): Socratically styled weekly hour long phone conversations with BTM on the subject of his choice.

Harsh but fair.

[monkeyman]

Why not require reimbursement for other crimes?
How does one provide reimbursement for harrassment? Or murder, or rape?

[wobbling bear]

Billy you are suprising me!
what about more common crimes such as:
- selling something that does not exist (or/and violates the law of physics)
- boasting that you make a 140% margin in front of your client
- being a client of the abovementioned and admiring him for fleecing you
- devising procedures with no relation to anything real (a common sin amongst managers)
- forcing subordinates to implement a strategy designed by top brass but found by underlings to be technically irrelevant ("party line" strategy for middle management)
- adopting a technical fad whilst ignoring advices from experienced people
and investing a lot of money in something bound to fail!
- adopting a "worlwide" profile that ignores that other cultures and conditions exist in far far away countries (for instance requiring a "state" in your address, or requiring a middle initial in your name ...)
- writing software that "knows better" than the end user
- writing tests in english with totally ambiguous sentences that could be interpreted in a dozen of ways, pile up negations, or is dependent in a context which is not explicited (common in many exams)
- teaching with slides with bullets full of assertions that let you think you are a moron that needs to be told that 2 is more than one (with numerous examples to prove it)
- ... (long list)

what about the reintroduction of galleys for those: that would lower pollution of minds and skies altogether!

[James_Potter]

And then they'll go back out and do it again (drive drunk). At least some people will. Punishment must be an effective deterrent.
Possibly, so a longer punishment for second offense, then even longer for third, etc...just do what needs to be done to make sure this person doesn't do it again, and if that means locking 'em up forever, that sucks a lot, but it may be necessary.

[Brian MacKenzie]

Statutory Rape (18 year old girl with her 16 year old boyfriend.

you could punish her into marrying someone that 16 years later still thinks making unicycling movies is 'a job'

[maestro8]

(multiple) - Instant DP
Instant, eh? So, you don't want to give someone a chance to prove their innocence? Where's the justice in that?

[BillyTheMountain]

How does one provide reimbursement for harrassment? Or murder, or rape?

An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. [I don't endorse it, but it answers your question.]

you could punish her into marrying someone that 16 years later still thinks making unicycling movies is 'a job'

So you were 16, and 16 years later you're 32, and thank goodness the statute of limitations has passed!!!!! Am I at least partially correct???

[wickedbob]

Murder - Instant DP (Death Penalty)

Manslaughter - Punishable by Death Penalty.

Criminally Negligent Homicide - Punishable by Death Penalty

Rape - Punishable by Death Penalty / Castration / Public Stoning / 9" Q-Tip crammed into Perpetrators wiener as lesson

Statutory Rape - 30 Days Community Service and Barred 300 yards from any High school

Shoplifting - Restitution @ Double. 30 Days Community Service

Armed Robbery - Instant DP

Sale of Narcotics - Instant DP

Possession of Narc - Mandatory SAP. And they shave your pet and family.

Marriage Fraud - Citizenship Revoked

Telephone Harassment - Possible DP

Haha just about everybody in the prison system would be killed if left up to you.

Also what if the student was in middle school or even elementary school when the Statutory rape took place. I mean there have been kinds 13-15 in elementary schools so it is not really that crazy of a question.

[Brian MacKenzie]

Am I at least partially correct???

have you ever only been 'partially' correct?

[puresyn]

Instant, eh? So, you don't want to give someone a chance to prove their innocence? Where's the justice in that?

If 14 witness on a train identifies you holding it up, then its very likely that you did it. INSTANT DP. Most countries that I've been to with VERY strict laws usually don't execute without clear evidence. For example, that minister in China that was recently executed for allowing bad food into the China and bad food allowed to be shipped out. He was taking bribes and it was COMPLETELY obvious. INSTANT DP! If congress people had the same penalties in the US, I think they would think LONG and HARD about corruption. Enron, CLEARLY OBVIOUS!

These places violent crimes are very rare.

And the difference between Murder 1 and manslaughter is Murder 1 is premeditated. You just O.J.'d someone flat out! It was planned out.

Anytime where theres strong doubt, I don't agree with DP. But when it's clear to 50 witnesses, on camera, or your driving a new MB Maybach on a $60k government salary, then I agree with instant DP. It's fast and effective. It sends a clear message to people!

SAP -- Substance Abuse Program.

[dudewithasock]

I like the way you think, puresyn. Makes sense.

[monkeyman]

An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. [I don't endorse it, but it answers your question.

You can't make it up to the victim, though. Revenge isn't reimbursement. You steal $200 from a gas station, you have to pay it back, and then you go to jail to be punished.

[Jerrick]

How do your guys' views change when for the rape, instead of a 18 year old being a female, it be a 18 year old male with a 16 year old girlfriend?

Just curious.

[ivan]

It's not a rape anyway. If both participants gave their consent, it's just parents being stupid. I think a 16 year old has the right to decide whom to have sex with, even if the law says otherwise.

[mcnuggets300]

rabble rabble rabble rabble!

[BillyTheMountain]

You can't make it up to the victim, though. Revenge isn't reimbursement. You steal $200 from a gas station, you have to pay it back, and then you go to jail to be punished.

Reimbursement barely makes it up. Who pays for the shattered image of a safe world, the post traumatic stress disorder, the lifetime of fear and suffering?

[wobbling bear]

I hate guidelines for judgment: judges should be responsible!

It happens that a long long time ago in another galaxy the police snatched
me for a "serious crime" and sent me to jail.
a fortnight later the judge (who was clever) realised the police had got it wrong
and since he could not tell officially that the officers were out of their mind (we could not prove it beyond doubt) he did not even applied the minimum sentence and just had me deported.
Thanks mister judge! I admire your cleverness. btw I bear no grudge to the officers they simply got it wrong and that may happen to even the
most well-wishing people.
luckily the prison was in a country with decent prisons :D and nothing bad
happened there (except church services which inspired me awe :o ).

[dudewithasock]

Reimbursement barely makes it up. Who pays for the shattered image of a safe world, the post traumatic stress disorder, the lifetime of fear and suffering?

Illegal immigrants?

[mattsmith]

Wow. You guys are harsh.
It's too tricky to generalise and I put my faith in the English judiciary, but here's my brief thoughts:
Murder: In cold blood, no good reason? 10yr min. Life can mean life. Fred West and Myra Hindley didn't deserve their freedom IMO.
Manslaughter: 0 - life. Manslaughter is sooooo subjective. Same for Gross Negligence Manslaughter. Sometimes you throw the book, sometimes you need compassion.
Rape: 6 months to 5 years. The nature of rape is too wide to be specific.
Shoplifting (which is an instance of burglary): 0 - 6 months. Too lame for a custodial.
Robbery of person: 0 - 2 years. Custodials aren't the best suited to personal crimes. Restorative Justice (a sort of punishment through perpotrator to victim meeting and apology which sounds bizzarre but has proven immensely effective) is more suitable. Helps victims to recover and perps to realise the extent of their crime.
Burglary / Bank robbery - How does this differ from burglary? You enter a premesis with the intent to commit a crime (usually theft). Bank, house, hotel, corner shop, supermarket, coalmine, workshop. Why should banks get special treatment?

I'm not touching drug offences as I think a total overhaul of these is becoming necessary. Heroin inparticular causes too much suffering on the blackmarket.

Marriage fraud (helping an immigrant become a citizen) - Toughy. Big issue in the EU as it effectively gets you (plus your family and "dependents" - a very flexible concept) citizenship to 27 nations in one go. Very serious. Up to 10 years I think would be suitable.

Telephone harassment : You trivialise this one too much. The telephone has been used to cause so much psychological damage that it's near as dammit to assault. Too subjective to place a sentence, but I'd say 2 years maximum for the most hostile. As with other crimes of a very personal nature Restorative Justice would be more suitable.

For those curious on Restorative Justice, the Smith Institute published a whole bunch of stuff about it in 2005 (I think). Some of it's available on the web and makes a fascinating read. Put aside your need for revenge and think about rehabilitation and lowering re-offending rates.

[monkeyman]

The nature of rape is "too wide to be specific"?!?! Are you effing crazy?! You're violating someone in the worst way. Oh, but that's ok, we can just give them 5 years...it's not like the rape victim will live with it for the rest of their life or anything.

Heaven forbid someone help someone else become a citizen of 27 nations in one go, however. That's a travesty on humanity itself.

What the hell kind of justice system puts the state in front of the person? That concept is disgusting.

[dudewithasock]

Put aside your need for revenge and think about rehabilitation and lowering re-offending rates.

I don't see the problem with treating a crime like rape or pre-med'd murder with death. I don't want someone walking around my society who has ever actually acted upon such disgusting thoughts, plain and simple.

[Gilby]

What the hell kind of justice system puts the state in front of the person? That concept is disgusting.

In most places, that is the reality... power corrupts, and the trend is for the state to care about itself more than those it was originally supposed to protect.

Marriage fraud (helping an immigrant become a citizen) - Toughy. Big issue in the EU as it effectively gets you (plus your family and "dependents" - a very flexible concept) citizenship to 27 nations in one go. Very serious. Up to 10 years I think would be suitable.

So someone moves to another place to try to impove their life, and they harmed who exactly?

Their sentencing should be the taking away of their citizenship and then be sent to the back of the line to get a lawfully obtained citizenship.

[hobo_chuck]

The usual reason for that is a DWI...which I think should be punished.

by cutting off both of their hands, their right foot, and putting them in prizon for 35 years.......



















ah, but this is the guy that thinks that driving and not using public transit/unicycle should be a punishable offence as well, sooooo...

[hobo_chuck]

In most places, that is the reality... power corrupts, and the trend is for the state to care about itself more than those it was originally supposed to protect.



So someone moves to another place to try to impove their life, and they harmed who exactly?

Their sentencing should be the taking away of their citizenship and then be sent to the back of the line to get a lawfully obtained citizenship.
i agree...

(slightly off-topic)
illigal immigration should be legal, but the immigrants should have to pay taxes(they wouldn't mind, this way they wouldn't have to pay a coyote.....)



i also think that many more things should be legal, because rather than the govornment benifiting from certain activities(taxes) its the creepy people who benifit(pimps, drug dealers, coyotes) and you can't exactly regulate an underworld, many more people get hurt when some things are illigal rather than legal,

food is legal, so we have the food and drug administration
(don't really want to go into the possible names of some of these administrations)


just because its illigal doesn't mean people aren't going to do it, and they are probably more likely to abuse it...

i think somthing similar to this logic is why alchohol is legal today in the US....

[Gilby]

i agree...

(slightly off-topic)
illigal immigration should be legal, but the immigrants should have to pay taxes(they wouldn't mind, this way they wouldn't have to pay a coyote.....)

The very definition of illegal means that it is not legal, so you'd have to say exactly what rules for immigration would have to be changed.

Taxes are just wrong for anyone. To think that the state can tell you how much of the product of your labor you can keep means you are a slave and that you have no rights.

i also think that many more things should be legal,

...

i think somthing similar to this logic is why alchohol is legal today in the US....

Prohibition didn't work then and it doesn't now. Al Capone lved prohibition because it made the alcohol market more profitable. Better to end the industry by making it legal which would lower the profit that can be made on the black market and the violent crime that goes with it. Those with addiction problems can then seek help without worrying about being put in jail, and doctors can prescribe these drugs to help them slowly get off their dependence of them.

[mattsmith]

The nature of rape is "too wide to be specific"?!?! Are you effing crazy?! You're violating someone in the worst way. Oh, but that's ok, we can just give them 5 years
Worst way huh?
So that underage couple who consent with each other but are unable to legally consent, does that apply to them? I think not. You think you're ready for sex? Indulge in sex at 17 in your country and you're a criminal but would have been legal for over a year here in the UK.
Think of the many so-called "rapes" that are no more than regretted incidents, and the difficulties raised by intoxication and as with most criminal offences you have a massive range of scenarios which, in largely bare no resemblance the violent and depraved act that you clearly have in your mind. Have a look at how long rape offenders generally serve for their crime. 5 years isn't so unrealistic.

I don't see the problem with treating a crime like rape or pre-med'd murder with death. I don't want someone walking around my society who has ever actually acted upon such disgusting thoughts, plain and simple.
You're not known for your compassion then? If you don't believe in rehabilitation then you might as well give up on society right now. Humans make mistakes, get angry with each other, act in desperation and generally hurt each other. Premeditated murder might sound like a bad thing, but take the time to read up on some real murder cases and see why the offenders did it. From wives suffering years of abuse, only to snap and stab their tormentors as they slept to ingesting a shed load of acid and believing that their victim was a giant snake, or just confused youths whose under-appreciation for the fragility of the human body compared to a stiff blade led to the worst result. People do shitty things but that doesn't always make them shitty people. I know the question was to no odd circumstances, but is there really such a thing as a simple murder?
Maybe once you've screwed up a few times yourself you'll not be so quick to condemn others.

And the long sentence for fraudulent marriage was very much a "no longer than" sentence. The financial implications to the welfare state are huge. I pictured it as more of a prohibitive measure.

[hobo_chuck]

The very definition of illegal means that it is not legal, so you'd have to say exactly what rules for immigration would have to be changed.

Taxes are just wrong for anyone. To think that the state can tell you how much of the product of your labor you can keep means you are a slave and that you have no rights.

sorry that i wasn't clear, really, but i think most people can figure out which rules i meant......:p





Prohibition didn't work then and it doesn't now. Al Capone lved prohibition because it made the alcohol market more profitable. Better to end the industry by making it legal which would lower the profit that can be made on the black market and the violent crime that goes with it. Those with addiction problems can then seek help without worrying about being put in jail, and doctors can prescribe these drugs to help them slowly get off their dependence of them.
EXACTLY!!!!!!!

[monkeyman]

Worst way huh?
Yes, the worst way. Rape leaves the victim suffering for the rest of their life, while murder simply kills them.
So that underage couple who consent with each other but are unable to legally consent, does that apply to them? I think not. You think you're ready for sex? Indulge in sex at 17 in your country and you're a criminal but would have been legal for over a year here in the UK.
Don't mix in statutory rape with real rape. That's like mixing illegal trade with grand theft auto.

Think of the many so-called "rapes" that are no more than regretted incidents
Bullshit. You call out Matt on his level of compassion, but then say that many rape cases are mere "regretted incidents"? It's pretty hard to accidentally rape someone. And before you do, don't even try to bring up drug instances, because you probably weren't tied down and forced to take acid.


and the difficulties raised by intoxication
Unless the aggressor was tied down and force fed drugs/alcohol, this is a non-issue.

and as with most criminal offences you have a massive range of scenarios which, in largely bare no resemblance the violent and depraved act that you clearly have in your mind.
A massive range of scenarios, eh? I dunno many different excuses for raping someone, but each one is inexcusable as the next.

Have a look at how long rape offenders generally serve for their crime. 5 years isn't so unrealistic.
So obviously, the justice system needs work.

[Gilby]

Bullshit. You call out Matt on his level of compassion, but then say that many rape cases are mere "regretted incidents"? It's pretty hard to accidentally rape someone. And before you do, don't even try to bring up drug instances, because you probably weren't tied down and forced to take acid.

Have you ever done something stupid under peer pressure? Happens with sex too, and some people who regret it later do call rape. There are even incidents where they consent, and then in the middle of the act say to stop but the other didn't.

[dudewithasock]

Maybe once you've screwed up a few times yourself you'll not be so quick to condemn others.

Screw up a few times? You're treating murder and rape as if it's equivalent to shoplifting. Try and understand that I'm a lot more compassionate than I sound - my reasoning for putting rapists and homicidal criminals to death isn't purely based on a need for revenge (although admittedly that is a teensy bit of it), it's to keep the rest of society from having to experience those people's screwed up perceptions of what's right and wrong.

And it's not like I would just have a murderer taken off the street and tossed in a pit of acid...any reasonable doubt would still be taken into account. I'm just saying that if circumstances, witnesses, etc. see that person as a guilty murderer/rapist, there shouldn't be a wide array of options to punish them with.

Have you ever done something stupid under peer pressure?

That's irrelevant - ends, not means, Kevin.

[maestro8]

my reasoning for putting rapists and homicidal criminals to death isn't purely based on a need for revenge (although admittedly that is a teensy bit of it), it's to keep the rest of society from having to experience those people's screwed up perceptions of what's right and wrong.
Dude,

You don't have to kill someone to keep society safe. You can isolate them from society. You see, we have these places called "jail" where bad people stay, and that keeps "us" safe from "them."

Furthermore, there are other ways to adjust these people's perceptions of right and wrong besides killing them. There are many people with mental handicaps who have trouble distinguishing right and wrong (such as autistics (http://www.incharacter.org/article.php?article=101)) and we don't just up and kill them.

You see, there's this thing called "treatment" that can effectively adjust one's point of view. It doesn't work in 100% of the cases, but thanks to treatment, there are many handicapped people who are able to function in society today.

Right now, the prison system is overpopulated and badly managed. I doubt there are many criminals who are getting any kind of "treatment" by going to jail. If we can correct the imbalance, perhaps we can give hope to those who have wronged society.

Dude, you should have compassion for your fellow man. At the core, we are all animals: murderous, thieving, selfish beasts... but we have a level of self-control far above most other animals... at least most of us do. Those who don't need the most compassion from us, as they've more to learn than those of us who can maintain self-control.

If you kill a murderer you're only lowering yourself to his level. Why not raise him up to your level instead?

[BillyTheMountain]

Dude,

You don't have to kill someone to keep society safe. You can isolate them from society.

By the way (except for murder-for-hire), murderers have the lowest recidivism rate. That means murderers are least likely to commit another murder. Makes some sense, because it is a rather rare crime, and often against someone special under special circumstances.

[puresyn]

If you kill a murderer you're only lowering yourself to his level.

A man that feeds off his brother is no longer a man, but a mad animal that will eventually be dealt his fate.

Why not raise him up to your level instead?

"When we treat man as he is, we make him worse than he is; when we treat him as if he already were what he potentially could be, we make him what he should be." -- Goethe

I agree with that to a certain extent, but not to murderers. I hear too many horror/funny stories from friends who were guards or teachers in prisons and jails. I suggest you ask any of your associates if theory has ever worked in prison system or if they think it will work.

When some guy made the mistake of breaking into our apartment, he found my roommate holding a 12 gauge shotgun. He begged for his life like the most pathetic creature I've ever seen. A few years later my roommate ran into the burglar while on duty for another burglary this guy did. The burglar thanked my roommate for not shooting him. He knows the prison system here is a country club, so he keeps doing it. Threaten with death ... I bet he becomes a good boy very quickly.

There exists a famous Chinese tactic in battle. Kill 1 to warn 100. It carries the same message to a murderer in society.

The Greeks used to have a death penalty that was so cruel it was reserved for only non-Greeks. It's enough to scare anyone into being a lawful person. It's called the Iron Bull Punishment. I saw it on A&E or History .. something like that. I was very impressed and very scared. If u didn't get the message before, you will after you see someone dying that way.

http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1105994

[dudewithasock]

When some guy made the mistake of breaking into our apartment, he found my roommate holding a 12 gauge shotgun. He begged for his life like the most pathetic creature I've ever seen. A few years later my roommate ran into the burglar while on duty for another burglary this guy did. The burglar thanked my roommate for not shooting him. He knows the prison system here is a country club, so he keeps doing it. Threaten with death ... I bet he becomes a good boy very quickly.

There exists a famous Chinese tactic in battle. Kill 1 to warn 100. It carries the same message to a murderer in society.

The Greeks used to have a death penalty that was so cruel it was reserved for only non-Greeks. It's enough to scare anyone into being a lawful person. It's called the Iron Bull Punishment. I saw it on A&E or History .. something like that. I was very impressed and very scared. If u didn't get the message before, you will after you see someone dying that way.

http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1105994

Jason - All those examples that puresyn stated basically say what I'm trying to say: if the punishment is increased for crimes, the crime rate will, most likely, decline. History has shown this to work (hell, some countries employ it today with a low crime rate as a result). I'm not saying run around with a secret police capping anyone who makes a threat, but the government needs to show potential criminals that they mean business.

[monkeyman]

There are even incidents where they consent, and then in the middle of the act say to stop but the other didn't.
To be honest, this doesn't sound that much like rape. I'm not sure what I would call it, but it certainly does not ring of rape. Maybe sexual molestation.

Right now, the prison system is overpopulated and badly managed.

Sorry for a complete lack of back-up for this, but some 3 out of 4 people* are in prison on drug offenses...it's not the prison system, it's the bad set of laws.

*don't quote me on this...the ratio might not be that big, but it's pretty high.

[ivan]

To be honest, this doesn't sound that much like rape. I'm not sure what I would call it, but it certainly does not ring of rape. Maybe sexual molestation.

It's not a rape, it's one of those things that can happen, especially with teenagers. Unfortunately, it's possible to end up in jail for many years because of it. I think that's why the sentence of 0 to 5 years was suggested.

Maybe the persons involved should be put through some sexual education programmes, but putting them in jail for years is definitely not helping anything.











Or just kill them all. Easier for everyone. And if they have friends or relatives who object...














Kill them as well!!!

Mwahahahahahaha!

[MrBoogiejuice]

What sentence would you folk hand down for [url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,2135251,00.html]this[url] most heinous of crimes?

[monkeyman]

Maybe the persons involved should be put through some sexual education programmes, but putting them in jail for years is definitely not helping anything.

For the situation we've been describing, yes, this is good. But it should not be classified under rape. Sexual misconduct or something, but definitely not rape.

[BillyTheMountain]

He knows the prison system here is a country club, so he keeps doing it.

Is that why you're so eager to get into jail??

maybe our country club prisons are well kept secret, except those with no education. How is it they know the best vacation spots, and how to get the taxpayer to pay their way?

[BillyTheMountain]

Good thoughts, everyone.

Let's write it up and submit it as legislation, then find a candidate who will support our ideas and vote them into office.

[ivan]

For the situation we've been describing, yes, this is good. But it should not be classified under rape. Sexual misconduct or something, but definitely not rape.
If one of the participants claims they hadn't given their consent it's classified as rape(I think). And it can be quite difficult getting them to admit the truth, especially if there are parents involved, etc. All these things are much much easier in theory. When it comes to real life, it's a wild jungle with poisonous monkeys and snakes distributing laser beams to yellow crocodiles.

Edit: Boogie: I wonder if that guy was trying to get a kink out of masturbating in front of that girl. Really funny article, though.

Second Edit: would a MacDonalds toilet be classified as a public place with limited access? Just curious...

[maestro8]

if the punishment is increased for crimes, the crime rate will, most likely, decline. History has shown this to work (hell, some countries employ it today with a low crime rate as a result)
...so we're supposed to prove that we can be more brutal than the criminals? I don't think proof is necessary. Anyone who's ever heard of the Inquisition knows that today's punishments are a mere slap on the wrist compared to mankind's worst treatments.

Brutality may give results, but is it worth acting like "criminals" ourselves? That's pure hypocrisy.

How about preventing crime before it happens? ...changing laws to decriminalize victim-less activities and increasing education to let the less fortunate know there are other ways of making it through life.

I have no problem locking up those who resist treatment for as long as it takes, but I do have a problem with brutalizing those whom we deem brutes.

I'm not one to speak in quotes, but this situation calls for some Ghandi: "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind".

[monkeyman]

Maestro, I can see your point for things such as burglary, but I can't see how you could recondition a rapist.

[dudewithasock]

...so we're supposed to prove that we can be more brutal than the criminals? I don't think proof is necessary. Anyone who's ever heard of the Inquisition knows that today's punishments are a mere slap on the wrist compared to mankind's worst treatments.

That's my point - it's a mere slap on the wrist. Something harsher needs to be done to get any results, since obviously, the proof is necessary.

Brutality may give results, but is it worth acting like "criminals" ourselves? That's pure hypocrisy.

It's not us acting like criminals, it's still them. They do something bad first, we react to keep them from doing it again. Not hypocrisy. Seems simple to me.

How about preventing crime before it happens? ...changing laws to decriminalize victim-less activities and increasing education to let the less fortunate know there are other ways of making it through life.

I'm all for that, Jason. Why can't better education and decriminalizing victim-less crimes work together with my plans of taking care of the real criminals, the murderers and rapists?

I have no problem locking up those who resist treatment for as long as it takes, but I do have a problem with brutalizing those whom we deem brutes.

That's odd, earlier you said:

Right now, the prison system is overpopulated and badly managed.

Locking up criminals for as long as it takes and spending more and more money on trying to treat those who won't be treated doesn't sound very nice to me, and it certainly doesn't sound like it's helping the overpopulation of prisons.

I'm not one to speak in quotes, but this situation calls for some Ghandi: "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind".

I'll admit that I agree with Ghandi on that quote; if there were a better way than the two sides we're debating over, one that would keep people safe without wasting money and filling prisons to the brim, then I'd be willing to choose it in a heartbeat. But, as it is, harsher punishments just seem like a necessary evil to me.

[maestro8]

It's not us acting like criminals, it's still them. They do something bad first, we react to keep them from doing it again. Not hypocrisy. Seems simple to me.
Someone kills a person. We kill them. Who is the criminal?
Someone steals from another. We steal from them (taxes / fines / forced service). Who is the criminal, again?
Someone rapes another. We lock them into a community of criminals with corrupt overseers, where they themselves may be raped. See a pattern yet?
Your "reaction" is flawed, in my opinion. You should react with compassion, not spite.

That's odd, earlier you said:...
Locking up criminals for as long as it takes and spending more and more money on trying to treat those who won't be treated doesn't sound very nice to me, and it certainly doesn't sound like it's helping the overpopulation of prisons.
As monkeyman and I both noted, we need to start by decriminalizing victimless crimes (incl. drug posession / use). Once this step is taken we'll see a drastic reduction in prison population. Then we'll have the "elbow room" we need to rehabilitate the real criminals.

As to the length and cost of treatment, one cannot put a price on changing someone else's life for the better. Just as mental hospitals don't just "give up" on their patients, neither should those who work to rehab criminals.

harsher punishments just seem like a necessary evil to me.
It sounds like you could use a change in perspective yourself. Evil is never necessary. Compassion is.

[maestro8]

Maestro, I can see your point for things such as burglary, but I can't see how you could recondition a rapist.
I am no psychotherapist, but I believe any mindset can be changed with time and effort.

If strong physical dependencies such as heroin addiction are curable, I am doubtful that any criminal mind is incurable.

If minds weakened by handicaps (such as autism or retardation) can be reshaped into socially functional beings, I am sure that weak-minded criminals can be rehabilitated as well.

The question seems to be, do we want to spend the time and effort it takes to make such changes to social outcasts? Sadly, the answer seems to be "no".

[dudewithasock]

It sounds like you could use a change in perspective yourself. Evil is never necessary. Compassion is.

Jason, I'm going to bite down on my pride here and admit that yeah, you're probably right. I need a change of perspective. I'm young, rash, and cynical - I can admit that, and I understand that it's affecting my viewpoints. I haven't experienced enough of life yet to really value it, even when it's not my own.

I'm gonna stop debating and probably keep my mindset the same, but I'll keep what you've said in my head and perhaps some day I'll truly be able to see your side of the argument.

Thank you for the polite debate, though. :)

[puresyn]

Is that why you're so eager to get into jail??

maybe our country club prisons are well kept secret, except those with no education. How is it they know the best vacation spots, and how to get the taxpayer to pay their way?

Go travel a few places (Russia, China, Mexico, Saudi). It's no secret, that jail time in the U.S. is arguably the most luxurious in the world. If you don't believe me, go violate a law in Tijuana and see if our penal system isn't "generous." Theres no such thing as "climate control" in those jails/prisons there. Theres no A/C, no heater, and no BS. If the missionary nuns didn't come by to feed you, then you went hungry that day. To some, an American jail is better than life in other countries.

[puresyn]

What sentence would you folk hand down for [url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,2135251,00.html]this[url] most heinous of crimes?

I would sentence him to community service to work in a peep show booth for 1 hour since he enjoys exhibiting himself.

[dan de man]

Assume First Offense, No Prior Criminal Record, Adult, No unusual extenuating circumstances.

How much time would you sentence for the following crimes?

Murder:minumium twenty year unless some argeement
Manslaughter:no charge
Criminally Negligent Homicide (killing someone by accident while driving drunk)10-15 years more flexible then straght murder
Rape:depending on circumstances 20-50 years chemical castration for parolees reoffenders get proper castration
Statutory Rape (18 year old girl with her 16 year old boyfriend, his parents press charges)the kids get a cookie and a box of condoms

Shoplifting:one night in a Jail cellBurglary:depends
Robbery of person:Kidnapping?
Bank Robberyagain depends on circum stances

Sale of Cocaine (1 ounce)
Sale of Heroin (1 ounce)
Sale of Marijuana (1 ounce)

Possession of Cocaine (1 ounce)
Possession of Heroin (1 ounce)
Possession of Marijuana (1 ounce)

Marriage fraud (helping an immigrant become a citizen)
Telephone harassment (leaving a telephone message angrily calling the person dirty names)

Go.
cant realy think of sentances for the rest of em

[dan de man]

Maestro, I can see your point for things such as burglary, but I can't see how you could recondition a rapist.
chemical castraition for a set amount of time with regular checks
if those fail or the subject reoffends phsical castraion

[BillyTheMountain]

If one of the participants claims they hadn't given their consent it's classified as rape(I think).

Under the law, a 16 year old is too young to consent, and is obviously being taken advantage of by the 18 year old girl (even if they've been going steady for a year).

[BillyTheMountain]

Go travel a few places (Russia, China, Mexico, Saudi). It's no secret, that jail time in the U.S. is arguably the most luxurious in the world. If you don't believe me, go violate a law in Tijuana and see if our penal system isn't "generous." Theres no such thing as "climate control" in those jails/prisons there. Theres no A/C, no heater, and no BS. If the missionary nuns didn't come by to feed you, then you went hungry that day. To some, an American jail is better than life in other countries.

It's true. There are many women in prison for immigration or being froced to be drug mules (movie about this....). Many have been working since the age of 5, 7 long days a week. They feel like USA prison is a luxury, where they have only one bed to make. How much longer do you want to keep them here? And how much harsher do you want to make it for these women?

But what country club are you a member of? If you cannot afford membership, would you actually going to prison?

SockDude: Look at the impact of harsh "Rockerfeller Drug Laws". We have gotten even harsher with drug sentences, yet we're losing the war on drugs.

Longer sentences have had virtually NO IMPACT on drug use/sales.

What's your source for propaganda?

[dudewithasock]

Billy, Jason and I were debating over punishments for murder and rape, not drug use/sales. I'm all for legalizing certain drugs and lifting punishments in that area, since it's all a bunch of victim-less crimes.

[puresyn]

It's true. There are many women in prison for immigration or being froced to be drug mules (movie about this....). Many have been working since the age of 5, 7 long days a week. They feel like USA prison is a luxury, where they have only one bed to make. How much longer do you want to keep them here? And how much harsher do you want to make it for these women?

They are in prison for a reason. I am sure they are ALL innocent.

But what country club are you a member of? If you cannot afford membership, would you actually going to prison?

Thats exactly my point. My friend, Caesar, spent more than 30 years in almost every prison in the South West (except for Folsom) for (MANY) various crimes. He kept going back there, because thats ALL HE KNEW was prison life. It's a lifestyle that he CHOSE for a longtime, i.e., until he got paroled again in 1996 and became born again. Prison is comfy for some like Caesar. He is definitely the toughest and most street smart person I know. I think that a Russian, Chinese, or Mexican Gulag would have changed his mind about going back in as many times as he has. Interesting note: Caesar never committed crimes in Mexico! Theres a reason for that.

yet we're losing the war on drugs.

Longer sentences have had virtually NO IMPACT on drug use/sales.

What's your source for propaganda?

I guarantee you that INSTANT DP would definitely change the idea of many dealers. INSTANT DP is like a lock. A lock is only good for keeping an honest man honest. There are those that will disregard it no matter the penalties. I have no doubts it would discourage all others who would attempt to sell drugs that are basically honest and forthright people. Even drug dealers fear death, thats why they carry handguns.

17th Century China used to have tons of rehabs when British used to sell opium there. The law was clear. You are an addict, you get help. You sell it, you were shot instantly. Who has the drug problem in the 21st century? China? Saudi Arabia? USA? Britain?

[BillyTheMountain]

psssst. i think puresyn is away for a while. while he's away, maybe we can have a sensible conversation about sentencing. shhhhhhh.

[ivan]

Having a sensible conversation about sentencing - Death Penalty.

[Beetle]

Do you think that prison works?
Evidence shows that longer sentences increase the risk of reoffence.
People commit crimes (antisocial and sometimes violent behaviour), we want them to behave in a socially acceptable manor, we send them to prison (where they learn more antisocial and violent survival skills), then they return to the community and they don't know how to function and many return to crime.
The prison environment is unhealthy no matter how luxurious we might think it looks compared to 3rd world prisons. Look at the Stanford prison experiment. University students were designated as either a prisoner or a guard, then left to behave in the way they saw fit. The experiment had to be shut down after 5 days because it bacame so violent. The prisoners (remember these are students not criminals) adapted to their environment (both social and physical environment), so did the guards. This is a good lesson on what happend in a prison environment, and why prisons and long sentences will never reduce crime in our communities.

Beetle

[johnfoss]

Intoxicated is when you are legally drunk. Influence is when you have some in your system.It goes by state. In NY it's DWI (driving while intoxicated), in CA it's DUI (driving under the influence). Different names for the same thing. Then different states can have different thresholds for BAC (blood alcohol content). I think the average now is .08. But that only measures alcohol. I don't think there are any such measures for all the other types of substances you might be on, from Ambien to PCP.

[johnfoss]

Do you think that prison works?What would you do?

I agree with you that prison is a great school for criminals to learn better techniques, tons of evidence points to that. So what should we do? Educate and rehabilitate, if possible, but at what cost? Our prisons in California are overcrowded already, and if we turn them into community colleges while people on the outside can't afford to go to school, I might have a problem with that.

[BillyTheMountain]

What would you do?

I agree with you that prison is a great school for criminals to learn better techniques, tons of evidence points to that. So what should we do? Educate and rehabilitate, if possible, but at what cost? Our prisons in California are overcrowded already, and if we turn them into community colleges while people on the outside can't afford to go to school, I might have a problem with that.

You're forgetting that your unemployment rate would skyrocket without prisons. And the many industries in the community (food services, produce delivering, etc) would go wanting.

The money spent on inmates goes into your hands eventually.

Billy

[dudewithasock]

Do you think that prison works?
Evidence shows that longer sentences increase the risk of reoffence.
People commit crimes (antisocial and sometimes violent behaviour), we want them to behave in a socially acceptable manor, we send them to prison (where they learn more antisocial and violent survival skills), then they return to the community and they don't know how to function and many return to crime.
The prison environment is unhealthy no matter how luxurious we might think it looks compared to 3rd world prisons. Look at the Stanford prison experiment. University students were designated as either a prisoner or a guard, then left to behave in the way they saw fit. The experiment had to be shut down after 5 days because it bacame so violent. The prisoners (remember these are students not criminals) adapted to their environment (both social and physical environment), so did the guards. This is a good lesson on what happend in a prison environment, and why prisons and long sentences will never reduce crime in our communities.

Beetle

Just wanted to toss in a URL for this interested in the Zimbardo experiment:
http://www.prisonexp.org/

[Beetle]

Thanks for the link Dudewithasock. We can all see how people adapt to their environment after reading the slideshow on the Stanford Prison Experiment. When we put people into prison, no matter who they are or what they have done to get there, they will be transformed in a very negative way by the degridation, disrespect, violence, isolation, etc. of a prison.

What do we do instead of punishment/imprisonment?

First we redefine what crime is, then we can redefine the responce to crime. In most countries, crime is seen as a violation of the law. When a crime is committed, the responce is usually punishment in the form of imprisonment.

If we see crime as a violation of human relationships, then the responce becomes very different. A crime is a harm that has been done to another person, if you want to address crime then you have to address the harm done. This is the way Restorative Justice views crime. Many different Restorative Justice measures are being used around the world with much seccess because they get the offender, the victim and the community involved to find a suitable solution to the problem.

Even the question of sex offenders is being addressed by Restorative Justice, through Circles of Support and Accountability. By forming a circle of community members around a high risk sex offender when he is released from prison, sexual offence has been shown to be reduced by over 70% Robin Wilson 2005 http://www.csc-scc.gc.ca/text/rsrch/reports/r168/r168_e.pdf

[BillyTheMountain]

What do we do instead of punishment/imprisonment?

First we redefine what crime is, then we can redefine the responce to crime. In most countries, crime is seen as a violation of the law. When a crime is committed, the responce is usually punishment in the form of imprisonment.

If we see crime as a violation of human relationships, then the responce becomes very different. A crime is a harm that has been done to another person, if you want to address crime then you have to address the harm done. This is the way Restorative Justice views crime.

I can't see that doing much for the unemployment problem.

Remember that when military bases were coming down 15 years ago, they were coming back up as prisons.

When soldiers were getting RIFd (Reduction In Force) from the military, they got jobs as prison guards.

The US military has over a million soldiers, and plenty more contractors here in Department of Defense facilities, and now in Iraq, but they cannot solve the unemployment problem all by themselves.

[Beetle]

I can't see that doing much for the unemployment problem.

Remember that when military bases were coming down 15 years ago, they were coming back up as prisons.

When soldiers were getting RIFd (Reduction In Force) from the military, they got jobs as prison guards.

The US military has over a million soldiers, and plenty more contractors here in Department of Defense facilities, and now in Iraq, but they cannot solve the unemployment problem all by themselves.

Why are you talking about unemployment? This thread is about crime and punishment. Are you suggesting that we should put more people in prison to solve an unemployment problem? That's just dumb.

Beetle

[BillyTheMountain]

Why are you talking about unemployment? This thread is about crime and punishment. Are you suggesting that we should put more people in prison to solve an unemployment problem? That's just dumb.

Beetle

It's not my idea, it's the Republicans idea.

Those locked up (a number that has more than tripled in the 10 year period from 1993 to 2003) are off the unemployment roles. Those working in the prison are off the unemployment roles.

Don't you think the USA would be in a jam if all the soldiers who got RIFd weren't provided for with prison jobs?

Of course, all that was before Bush lied to invade Iraq, creating a breeding ground for terrorism and taking LOTS of USA citizens off the unemployment roles by death or disability.

Of course, I think it was all a very bad idea.

No other industrialized nation sees prison as the solution. No other industrialized nation incarcerates a fraction of its own citizens, compared to the USA.

[BillyTheMountain]

The Moraccan who was held for 3 years before his terrorism related conviction was thrown out is suing the prosecutor for $9 million.

The former federal prosecutor, Richard G. Convertino, was removed from his job after the Justice Dept said he had withheld evidence that could have proved the innocence.

How would you punish the prosecutor? If you were wrongly held in jail 3 years?

[JJuggle]

The Moraccan who was held for 3 years before his terrorism related conviction was thrown out is suing the prosecutor for $9 million.

The former federal prosecutor, Richard G. Convertino, was removed from his job after the Justice Dept said he had withheld evidence that could have proved the innocence.

How would you punish the prosecutor? If you were wrongly held in jail 3 years?
Severely.

[johnfoss]

You're forgetting that your unemployment rate would skyrocket without prisons.So? It costs something like $80,000/year to house an inmate in CA. I'm pretty sure the savings would be astronomical.

The money spent on inmates goes into your hands eventually.I'm not buying that. I'd rather they not be in there in the first place, but that points to larger issues, such as education, community, family, etc. If prison doesn't work as a deterrent to crime, maybe we should try going back to corporal punishment?

Nah. Too easy for them.

[BillyTheMountain]

So? It costs something like $80,000/year to house an inmate in CA. I'm pretty sure the savings would be astronomical.

I'm not buying that. I'd rather they not be in there in the first place, but that points to larger issues, such as education, community, family, etc. If prison doesn't work as a deterrent to crime, maybe we should try going back to corporal punishment?

Nah. Too easy for them.

So you want more money spent directly on education and stuff? There's an idea. I like it.

What about putting more police in mens rooms? Police who act gay and act like they want sex, to arrest anyone who may be unsuspecting.

What should the sentence be for engaging in the delicate little foot tapping ritual which, if both parties consent throughout the little mating ritual, may lead to sex!!!!!

The NYTimes says the only danger to anyone from "tearoom" sex is caused by the police, with ruined reputations, etc. [Like the senator who just resigned....]