religon

[CKCrowe]

Just wonderin wht religon ppl are

[wickedbob]

hmmm.. I smell a debate....

[dudewithasock]

:rolleyes:

[James_Potter]

HAHAHA, Oh man, you have much to learn, n00b....

(in other words, there have already been about ten thousand gazillion threads on this exact topic, just worded in different ways)

Anyway, I'm Buddhist.

[CKCrowe]

I spelt Lutheran wrong. Srry.:eek:

[The Buddy]

I spelt Lutheran wrong. Srry.:eek:

And religion. :/

[dudewithasock]

And religion. :/

No, Religon is the upcoming sequel to the popular series Eragon. Keep up, fool.

[James_Potter]

I spelt Lutheran wrong. Srry.:eek:
Trust me, that will be the LEAST of your worries...muahahaha! Anyway, I chose atheist, Buddhist, and other.

[wickedbob]

Well I choose atheist... somebody pm me if a debate starts up.. it is going to happen it always does...

[uni57]

Here comes the debate...

Atheism is not a religion.

[James_Potter]

Here comes the debate...

Atheism is not a religion.
noooooo!
That one's gotten boring...go here (http://www.unicyclist.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58294) for that one.

[The Buddy]

No, Religon is the upcoming sequel to the popular series Eragon. Keep up, fool.

Lol. XD :D

[uni57]

noooooo!
That one's gotten boring...go here (http://www.unicyclist.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58294) for that one.I didn't follow your link because I know where it goes.

I wasn't going to debate. I really just meant that I can't vote (for atheism as my "religion").

[Jethro]

I wasn't going to debate. I really just meant that I can't vote (for atheism as my "religion").

He did offer a "no religion" option, but he grouped it with agnosticism.

I would like to see an option for non-religious Christians.

[monkeyman]

I would like to see an option for non-religious Christians.

...aren't you a pastor?

[Jethro]

...aren't you a pastor?

Yes, but I am far from "religious." I am trying to move away from religion, as most people view it.

(why can't I learn to stay away from these threads?)

I am a follower of Jesus--of what he taught and lived. That is not what the Christian religion, by and large, is currently about.

[James_Potter]

I'm the same way basically...I don't like the term religion at all. I guess I follow what Jesus taught too, he taught basically the same thing the Buddha did...love and compassion and everything wonderful!

[forrestunifreak]

...aren't you a pastor?

What Jethro is refering to is "religiousity''.... thinking you have to go sit in a church every sunday, do this, do that, do all these religious sounding things to be saved, etc.


I'm a christian.
But I don't "go" to church, although we sometimes have "church" in our house. Church and being "religious" does not a christian make.




I'm also glad this poll will close in 14 years.

[James_Potter]

I'm also glad this poll will close in 14 years.
Indeed, any longer than that would just be silly.

[Goats_On_Unicycles]

where's the choice for "all religions"?
it's definately not "other"...
i believe in and practice all religions because i believe that they all are the same. love, baby, love!! that's what religion is all about.
EDIT: wouldn't Morman fall under "Christian"??

[wickedbob]

liar goats my religion is based on hate!!!!!

[Goats_On_Unicycles]

shut up fag!! all you need is love godammit!! heh, jk.
love. peace and love.

[wickedbob]

LOL what you goona do about it *frenchies a man* lol.... anyways yeah your right mine is based on peace and love love of hate and death and peace whilst killing...

[monkeyman]

I am a follower of Jesus--of what he taught and lived. That is not what the Christian religion, by and large, is currently about.

My respect for you has just gone up, a lot. You too, Forrest.

[Clark_Roth]

Why isn't Mormon under the Christianity option?

[thejdw]

No, Religon is the upcoming sequel to the popular series Eragon. Keep up, fool.
hahaha

[monkeyman]

Why isn't Mormon under the Christianity option?

Comparing Mormonism to Christianity is like comparing a sausage roll to a pizza. They both have the same stuff in them, but they're not really the same thing.

[Clark_Roth]

Mormonism is a type of Christianity. Its like comparing a pepperoni pizza to a cheese pizza. There is just a few more ingredients but they are both pizza.

[monkeyman]

Mmmm, pizza.

But anyway, Mormonism and Christianity are substantially different. From my (somewhat limited) understanding of the four faiths, I would say that Mormonism is more different than Christianity than Judaism is than Islam. And I wouldn't recommend trying to call the Muslims "Jews".

[Clark_Roth]

I know my own religion.

[phlegm]

Mormonism is a type of Christianity. Its like comparing a pepperoni pizza to a cheese pizza. There is just a few more ingredients but they are both pizza.

Theologically speaking, a lot of the language is the same, but the presumed meanings of the language can be drastically different. In the sense that Jesus Christ is essential to Mormonism, yes, it is a type of Christianity. Yet, Mormonism is still quite distinct from most other types of Christianity. After all, isn't Mormonism the one true type of Christianity? :p

[Clark_Roth]

Mormonism is still quite distinct from most other types of Christianity. :p

In what way

[monkeyman]

In (http://www.christiananswers.net/q-acb/acb-r002a.html) these (http://biblia.com/christianity2/3b-mormons.htm)ways (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism_and_Christianity).

[phlegm]

In what way

Maybe you should ask your elder if it's OK to go to another non-Mormon Christian church instead.

[benjaug]

Jewish... I am Jewish, not "Judaism" as you put up there.

[James_Potter]

Comparing Mormonism to Christianity is like comparing a sausage roll to a pizza. They both have the same stuff in them, but they're not really the same thing.
That's prolly the best analogy I've heard ever...but I'd agree with the next comment that said it's more like comparing a pepperoni pizza to a cheese pizza, however I would use a supreme pizza as an example instead, because there's a BUNCH of new things in Mormonism that just isn't there in your general Christian religion, but all the old stuff is still there.

[headstone]

Jewish... I am Jewish, not "Judaism" as you put up there.

what?

[threeinchtire]

Mormonism as a religion was recognized relatively recently. I don't know all that much about it other than what I read about in Jon Krakauer's Under The Banner of Heaven which focuses more on Fundamental Mormonism which is its own category entirely. Anyway, I am under the impression that there are more than a few differences between Mormonism and Christianity, and even if they have a similar message they are not to be referred to under the same title. I like Monkeyman's analogy as well, and I would definitely agree. I don't think most Mormans would take kindly to being referred to as Christians, and vice versa, though I could be wrong on this...

[Clark_Roth]

I don't think most Mormans would take kindly to being referred to as Christians, and vice versa, though I could be wrong on this...

I'm a Mormon and I am the one arguing that Mormonism is a type of Christianity.

[James_Potter]

I don't think most Mormans would take kindly to being referred to as Christians, and vice versa, though I could be wrong on this...
Actually, in my experience (which is that I live in Idaho, the second most heavily Mormoned state right after Utah), most if not all Mormons consider themselves Christian, whereas most non-Mormon Christians do not consider Mormons to be Christian.

[Matt_V]

I'm a christian, just not a very good one.

I believe in most of the bible, but not what it says about going to heaven and hell.

[Jim_Rob]

I am a lapsed Anglican, which I just saw described as "like falling out of a first floor window". I like that, because it's not too far wrong. The Bible is obviously not meant to be taken seriously, it is a collection of semitic folk tales, used for political purposes.

[monkeyman]

Anyway, I am under the impression that there are more than a few differences between Mormonism and Christianity

Like the entire Western Hemisphere. Oops.

[saskatchewanian]

I do not have a religion, but I do have a belief system.

I grew up in a very german/roman-cathlic town, went to a mennonite boarding school and spend a lot of time in nature and have a fair amount of native friends. All these things have been factors in what I believe.

here are some of my beliefs

the Idea that humans are separate from nature is ludicrous.

God does not exist (as described in the bible and by other religions)
Spirits on the other hand do exist

Jesus did live and he was a great man but in no way a god.

The bible is a book/collection of writings written by man, NOT the divine truth. That doesn't mean that it should be dismissed and ignored just that it is not absolute truth. This can be applied to the Qur'an and other religious texts.

Nothing is absolute

good and evil do not exist

The idea of heaven and hell does not work for me. What are your dreams like at night? This is what your after life will be like. If you have a clear conscious you sleep well and have good dreams but if there is something that you did that really bothers you your dreams aren't so pleasant are they? For the sake of veterans who have night terrors due to experiences in wars I hope I am wrong but it makes sense to me.

Feel free to pick it apart. The more it is questioned the better the final understanding will be



EDIT: Mormons are definitely christian. Christianity encompasses a huge number of smaller religious groups from Catholics to Rastafari to Mormon

[forrestunifreak]

Nothing is absolute


Are you absolutely sure?

Haha that is the dumbest thing I ever heard.

[saskatchewanian]

Are you absolutely sure?

Haha that is the dumbest thing I ever heard.

No I am not sure but can you or anybody prove that something is absolute? I sure can't.

[The.Mars.Volta]

Go the Atheists!

[dudewithasock]

Are you absolutely sure?

Haha that is the dumbest thing I ever heard.

How is that dumb at all, forrest? Please explain.

I really like your belief system, saskakatchetcstehchewaaniansnian. Is there a specific name for it, or is it just something you kinda invented yourself? (No sarcasm, I actually do like it)

Comparing Mormonism to Christianity is like comparing a sausage roll to a pizza. They both have the same stuff in them, but they're not really the same thing.

Damnit, I just read this, and I'm really hungry now. :(

[saskatchewanian]

I really like your belief system, saskakatchetcstehchewaaniansnian. Is there a specific name for it, or is it just something you kinda invented yourself? (No sarcasm, I actually do like it)

thanks

there is no name for it it is just something that has evolved out of my own experiences.

[dan de man]

pastafarian

[Spencer Hochberg]

Go the Atheists!
yay

[CKCrowe]

oops, must of accidently skipped over it, i was looking at the top 10 biggest religons in the Us, should of looked at world.

And actually Mormonism is nothing like Christianity, with the whole jesus and satan being brothers, different heavens, being good to get to heaven, no offence guys, used to be multiple marriges, not anymore i dont think.
Being made up by some johnny applesmith or somethin lol jk.
and all that.

[Goats_On_Unicycles]

i think that in the Book of Mormon it says something to the effect that people aren't supposed to be polygamos (sp). just Brigahm Young had thirty some wives...(i think...)

[James_Potter]

i think that in the Book of Mormon it says something to the effect that people aren't supposed to be polygamos (sp). just Brigahm Young had thirty some wives...(i think...)
Yeah, the early founders of Mormonism must not have even read the Book of Mormon, because Jacob 2:27 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/jacob/2) says:
" 27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none."

If you want to delve deeply into the mundane details of Christianity and Mormonism, then sure they're very different...but Christianity is basically nothing more than following the teachings of Christ Jesus, which is that you should love everyone. That's what both Christians and Mormons preach, even though they rarely if ever actually practice it....

[x-plorer]

I am getting tired of people who know nothing about Mormonism yet still feel that they need to talk about it like they do. I know what I believe in, Mormons are Christians. We believe in the bible, we believe in Jesus Christ, and we believe in heaven;if that doesn't make us Christian then what does?:mad:

[surfer1024]

No I am not sure but can you or anybody prove that something is absolute? I sure can't.
You can ride a unicycle can't you? Then you know you can absolutely unicycle. :confused:

[forrestunifreak]

You can ride a unicycle can't you? Then you know you can absolutely unicycle. :confused:

Of course, science can prove many material things that we can know absolutely. But usually when people say that they don't believe in absolutes, they really just don't want to acknowledge moral right and wrong.

No I am not sure but can you or anybody prove that something is absolute? I sure can't.

Am I right in assuming you mean moral absolutes? I can't really prove right or wrong to satisfiy you.... But you can't prove it doesn't exist either, so who cares?

[BillyTheMountain]

I am getting tired of people who know nothing about Mormonism yet still feel that they need to talk about it like they do. I know what I believe in, Mormons are Christians. We believe in the bible, we believe in Jesus Christ, and we believe in heaven;if that doesn't make us Christian then what does?:mad:

Christians never support any war.

Christians pray out loud that their enemies (and those who hate them) are bathed in endless streams of GOD's compassion, mercy, peace and love, just as they pray their friends (and those who love them) are.

"God Bless America as God blesses our enemy's nation." Can you imagine a true Christian USA President ending his speeches with that? A true Christian can't imagine anything else. True Christians have changed the Star Spangled Banner to "God Bless America as God blesses our enemy's nation. Our Home Sweet Home."

Christians pray for the end of homophobia and other hatreds which thrive like a virus within the church, to make room for a culture of love to flourish.

The bible, heaven, creationism are all much lower priorities for true Christians, as long as our brothers and sisters need us.

BTM

[monkeyman]

We believe in the Mormon bible, we believe in Jesus Christ (who came to America), and we believe in 3 different levels of heaven;if that doesn't make us Christian then what does?:mad:
Yes, you're exactly like Christianity.


Billy, you rock.

[Jethro]

I know what I believe in, Mormons are Christians. We believe in the bible, we believe in Jesus Christ, and we believe in heaven;

So do Muslims.

Mormons and Christians teach two different ways of salvation. To me that is enough to make them different religions.

[Goats_On_Unicycles]

So do Muslims.

Mormons and Christians teach two different ways of salvation. To me that is enough to make them different religions.
but Muslims and Christians say themselves that they're two different religions. but like i said before... all religions are the same.

[James_Potter]

but Muslims and Christians say themselves that they're two different religions. but like i said before... all religions are the same.
Gandhi said that too!!

[saskatchewanian]

Of course, science can prove many material things that we can know absolutely. But usually when people say that they don't believe in absolutes, they really just don't want to acknowledge moral right and wrong.



Am I right in assuming you mean moral absolutes? I can't really prove right or wrong to satisfiy you.... But you can't prove it doesn't exist either, so who cares?

Science can not prove anything but it can disprove many things. Scientific truths are things that have withstood many tests over many years and have not been shown to be untrue.

In saying that I do not believe in absolutes I mean both physical and moral absolutes. I guess that I am saying that I believe in chaos theory (there is always another unknown variable)

I do acknowledge moral right and wrong but do not acknowledge good and evil. That is to say that there is not universal moral right and wrong but that morals are personal so what is morally right for one person is not necessarily morally right for another. If someone does something that is against your morals you may call it an evil dead but I say that it is simply against your personal moral code, and who are you to say that you moral code is more legitimate than someone else's.

[Goats_On_Unicycles]

Gandhi said that too!!
and Woody Guthrie!

[UniMOG]

Who Cares. dose it make me different, some how :confused:

[BillyTheMountain]

Science can not prove anything but it can disprove many things. Scientific truths are things that have withstood many tests over many years and have not been shown to be untrue.

In saying that I do not believe in absolutes I mean both physical and moral absolutes. I guess that I am saying that I believe in chaos theory (there is always another unknown variable)

I do acknowledge moral right and wrong but do not acknowledge good and evil. That is to say that there is not universal moral right and wrong but that morals are personal so what is morally right for one person is not necessarily morally right for another. If someone does something that is against your morals you may call it an evil dead but I say that it is simply against your personal moral code, and who are you to say that you moral code is more legitimate than someone else's.

I read today that scientists have just proven beyond a doubt, that all religions are ONE.

Even the Chaos Theory Faith, which you are a faithful adherent of!

Billy




:D

[monkeyman]

Who Cares. dose it make me different, some how :confused:

Well....yes. An atheist is different from a Muslim, because they aren't the same.

Saskatchewanian, I like your views on stuff...that's basically how I am. You can't define absolute, unchanging morals because morality is defined by the individual who is influenced by society at large, which is always changing.

[James_Potter]

Well....yes. An atheist is different from a Muslim, because they aren't the same.
I disagree...all people are the same. Maybe their beliefs are different, but beliefs are not the same as a person who holds them...as human beings they are equals!

[uniroller]

I'm an ordained minister with the universal life church, thay accept anyone of any religion. Don't get me wrong I chose athiest because I don't believe in that higher power crap, but when that Iraq war draft comes (and it will) I'll pull out the old ordained minister card. If you want to be an ordained minister too, go to...

http://www.themonastery.org/

I love that our church doesn't follow the trend of many others and try to force beliefs down your throat. If there is one thing I hate it's when someone makes it their life's mission to prove you wrong.

[thejdw]

there is no such thing as god

[mscalisi]

Billy, for someone who doesn't identify as a Christian, you sure talk like you do.

I can support what you say here, except for all the christ and god stuff.

Christians never support any war.

Christians pray out loud that their enemies (and those who hate them) are bathed in endless streams of GOD's compassion, mercy, peace and love, just as they pray their friends (and those who love them) are.

"God Bless America as God blesses our enemy's nation." Can you imagine a true Christian USA President ending his speeches with that? A true Christian can't imagine anything else. True Christians have changed the Star Spangled Banner to "God Bless America as God blesses our enemy's nation. Our Home Sweet Home."

Christians pray for the end of homophobia and other hatreds which thrive like a virus within the church, to make room for a culture of love to flourish.

The bible, heaven, creationism are all much lower priorities for true Christians, as long as our brothers and sisters need us.

BTM

[mscalisi]

Since, athiesm is a religion (as defined by you) does that mean that being athiest is the same as being christian, buddhist or muslim?

I read today that scientists have just proven beyond a doubt, that all religions are ONE.

[James_Potter]

Billy, for someone who doesn't identify as a Christian, you sure talk like you do.
I can support what you say here, except for all the christ and god stuff.
I disagree, the average Christian would probably say that Jesus is supporting our troops as they fight the evil enemy forces....

[monkeyman]

I disagree...all people are the same. Maybe their beliefs are different, but beliefs are not the same as a person who holds them...as human beings they are equals!

All people are the same? No offense, Mikael, but bullshit. Are you right-handed? Do you have blue eyes? Brown hair? Do you play violin? How about guitar? Or bass? Do you have a scar on your left elbow from rollerblading? What about a scar on your right from skateboarding?

If you answered 'no' to any of those questions, you and I are not the same. Religion is another one of the many things that can be used to describe a person.

[James_Potter]

All people are the same? No offense, Mikael, but bullshit. Are you right-handed? Do you have blue eyes? Brown hair? Do you play violin? How about guitar? Or bass? Do you have a scar on your left elbow from rollerblading? What about a scar on your right from skateboarding?
If you answered 'no' to any of those questions, you and I are not the same. Religion is another one of the many things that can be used to describe a person.
Handedness, eye color, hair color, hobbies, etc. are so absolutely empty they hold no true meaning to discovering who a person.
Let's try this again...what do you want out of life? Love? Happiness? Fun?
Do you bleed when you get cut?
Do you cry when you're sad?
Do you laugh when you're happy?
So do Christians, atheists, Muslims, Buddhists, and people of every other religion ever.


Of course you may not agree because you are Christian (I think?), and Christianity I believe teaches that every person is a separate entity, each separately needing to find their own salvation...I am Buddhist, and Buddhism teaches there is no Self and every person is equally part of the Ultimate Reality, or Dharma. I am you and you are me and everyone is us!

But don't mistake our differing beliefs for being "different." I, like you, cannot prove my religion is true, however I do believe it. I believe it's the truth, but you believe it's not, so here we are!
However I believe my previous statements still apply, that everyone feels the same emotions inside (pain, happiness, sadness, love), from the same things.

[mscalisi]

My point was that Billy talks as if he is a christian (not necessarily a TYPICAL christian) but in a previous thread, he had stated that he had not identified himself as a christian on this forum.

Of course, Christ was a liberal hippie, he most certainly would have been anti-war, which makes the american christian support of the war fairly ironic.



edit: On this page is the post I'm referring to: http://www.unicyclist.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58302&page=3&highlight=identify+christian

It seems to me that Billy is a religious flip-flopper, then again, he claims all religions to be the same. By that measure, he accepts all religions, yet he would be rejected by many of these religions by his refusal to reject any of them.


I disagree, the average Christian would probably say that Jesus is supporting our troops as they fight the evil enemy forces....

[monkeyman]

Handedness, eye color, hair color, hobbies, etc. are so absolutely empty they hold no true meaning to discovering who a person.
A fine point, but they make us different. By the definition, different just means "not the same". If you aren't the same as someone, you are different. Not like three-tentacled-alien different, just not the same.


Of course you may not agree because you are Christian (I think?)

I don't know of a religious viewpoint that would accurately sum up my beliefs. If I had to pick something, I would pick spiritually agnostic. I think there is some sort of higher power out there, just because it makes more sense to me. I'll be seen as some crazy science-deprived lunatic for saying this, but I think that power is the intelligent designer, who basically created the universe, and then stepped back and said go. It didn't/doesn't know what was going to happen in the future, and it never well...it just sits back and watches. It's like a clockmaker designing a huge, intricate grandfather clock, and sitting back to watch it work. I'm definitely not Christian though. I believe in Jesus the man (not the son of God), and I believe in his message very strongly. I am also a firm believer in the scientific method. This may seem to conflict with my viewpoint on the intelligent designer, but I don't really think so. Evolution is still the same, there's just something behind the natural process instead of it being completely natural. If the scientific method eventually showed (and provided a sufficient amount of proof) for another way the universe works/was created, I would reexamine my views, and almost certainly change them. As for the agnostic part of my belief, it basically implies what I just said. I don't know what's going on up there, and I'm not arrogant enough to claim that I do, or can figure it out. I'll find out when I die, if there's an afterlife (which I also don't know about)...if there's not, then there's not.

I am you and you are me and everyone is us!
I think you could be right speaking in generalities (I certainly don't know), meaning we're all the same on the basic level, but even if we are part of a larger "thing", the parts are still different. Even if the Thing somehow has all the qualities a human could have (be a brunette, redhead, blonde, white, black, female and male) simultaneously, we are still different. I am not brown-eyed, and I doubt you have eyesight as bad as mine. That makes us different by definition.

Don't mistake my argument to be one that says humans are all basically different. At our cores, I think we all share a same set of motivations and desires. However, once you get past that, we are different simply because we are not the exact same.

But don't mistake our differing beliefs for being "different." I, like you, cannot prove my religion is true, however I do believe it. I believe it's the truth, but you believe it's not, so here we are!


Ah, but they are different, because they aren't the same. Muslims don't believe Jesus was the son of God. Therefore, by definition, Islam and Christianity are not the same thing. Even though their base values may resemble each other, the devil's in the details. They are not completely the same, therefore they are different.

[James_Potter]

A fine point, but they make us different. By the definition, different just means "not the same". If you aren't the same as someone, you are different. Not like three-tentacled-alien different, just not the same.

Okay, on a secular Earthly level, we're different. But in this discussion, spiritually speaking, everyone is equal...that's how I feel, at least. Some believe differently of course, some say that men were created for God, and women were created for men, therefore women are subservient to and therefore not equal to men. That's kind of extreme for most people these days, but you get the idea...but anyway, on the inside, naked (figuratively speaking), everyone is beautiful :D

I don't know of a religious viewpoint that would accurately sum up my beliefs. If I had to pick something, I would pick spiritually agnostic. I think there is some sort of higher power out there, just because it makes more sense to me. I'll be seen as some crazy science-deprived lunatic for saying this, but I think that power is the intelligent designer, who basically created the universe, and then stepped back and said go. It didn't/doesn't know what was going to happen in the future, and it never well...it just sits back and watches. It's like a clockmaker designing a huge, intricate grandfather clock, and sitting back to watch it work. I'm definitely not Christian though. I believe in Jesus the man (not the son of God), and I believe in his message very strongly. I am also a firm believer in the scientific method. This may seem to conflict with my viewpoint on the intelligent designer, but I don't really think so. Evolution is still the same, there's just something behind the natural process instead of it being completely natural. If the scientific method eventually showed (and provided a sufficient amount of proof) for another way the universe works/was created, I would reexamine my views, and almost certainly change them. As for the agnostic part of my belief, it basically implies what I just said. I don't know what's going on up there, and I'm not arrogant enough to claim that I do, or can figure it out. I'll find out when I die, if there's an afterlife (which I also don't know about)...if there's not, then there's not.
I think that is basically Deism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism), the belief that a deity exists but doesn't really intervene on Earth much. I think that's what Deism is anyway, I didn't reread the wiki page I just linked to...I might be wrong though.

I think you could be right speaking in generalities (I certainly don't know), meaning we're all the same on the basic level, but even if we are part of a larger "thing", the parts are still different. Even if the Thing somehow has all the qualities a human could have (be a brunette, redhead, blonde, white, black, female and male) simultaneously, we are still different. I am not brown-eyed, and I doubt you have eyesight as bad as mine. That makes us different by definition.
That's true, but like I said above, these things don't matter...sure, we may be "different" in our bodies on Earth, but is that what matters in the long run? I think that no matter one's religion, whether you believe people go to Heaven after life or get reincarnated, that which really matters (spirit, soul, whatever) are the same throughout every person.

Don't mistake my argument to be one that says humans are all basically different. At our cores, I think we all share a same set of motivations and desires. However, once you get past that, we are different simply because we are not the exact same.
Ah, but they are different, because they aren't the same. Muslims don't believe Jesus was the son of God. Therefore, by definition, Islam and Christianity are not the same thing. Even though their base values may resemble each other, the devil's in the details. They are not completely the same, therefore they are different.
There we go (: That is what I'm saying really...details details, blah blah blah...people put way too much emphasis on mere details, I think. The Bible says some stuff that conflicts with modern science, like creation is hard to verify, but if there is a God, would He prefer that Christians argue with the Liberal Atheists about how we're here, or would He prefer us to just accept that we are here and do something worthwhile with our time on Earth?

[monkeyman]

So basically, we win. Thread over.

[James_Potter]

So basically, we win. Thread over.
yay!! :D

[lostconch]

Nothing is absolute

good and evil do not exist

The idea of heaven and hell does not work for me.

EDIT: Mormons are definitely christian. Christianity encompasses a huge number of smaller religious groups from Catholics to Rastafari to Mormon

Let me ask you,,
1) If someone were to kidnap your mother, sister, or brother/ torture and kill them,, Just for kicks ,, Would it be GOOD OR EVIL??

2) What would be a just punishment in your eyes??

[heelnipper]

strange i don't see rastafarian lol

well although i have dreadlocks i am a christian.

[dudewithasock]

Let me ask you,,
1) If someone were to kidnap your mother, sister, or brother/ torture and kill them,, Just for kicks ,, Would it be GOOD OR EVIL??

2) What would be a just punishment in your eyes??

I know I'm not saskahtehchewiawan, but I like his beliefs.

1) Depends on whose perspective you're looking at. From theirs (assuming they are psychopaths or something of the sort), it might not be evil - maybe not good, but maybe not evil, either. I would say it's evil, because I believe evil is simply extending your own inalienable rights further than someone else's. But just because I say it's evil doesn't make it absolutely, truly, 100% EVIL. You following me?

2) Kill 'em, duh.

[lostconch]

There we go (: That is what I'm saying really...details details, blah blah blah...people put way too much emphasis on mere details, I think. The Bible says some stuff that conflicts with modern science, like creation is hard to verify, but if there is a God, would He prefer that Christians argue with the Liberal Atheists about how we're here, or would He prefer us to just accept that we are here and do something worthwhile with our time on Earth?

I don't think argue is the point,, Mark 16:15 And he said to them (Jesus) go into all the world and preach the Gospel (good news) to every creature. 16 He that believes and is baptised shall be saved, but he that believes not shall be damned.

Christians aren't arguing they're pleading with the hard hearted and nonbelievers out of compassion, verse 14

[monkeyman]

well although i have dreadlocks i am a christian.
...I don't get it?

I don't think argue is the point,, Mark 16:15 And he said to them (Jesus) go into all the world and preach the Gospel (good news) to every creature. 16 He that believes and is baptised shall be saved, but he that believes not shall be damned.

Christians aren't arguing they're pleading with the hard hearted and nonbelievers out of compassion, verse 14

[James_Potter]

I don't think argue is the point,, Mark 16:15 And he said to them (Jesus) go into all the world and preach the Gospel (good news) to every creature. 16 He that believes and is baptised shall be saved, but he that believes not shall be damned.
Christians aren't arguing they're pleading with the hard hearted and nonbelievers out of compassion, verse 14
How would you feel if a Muslim comes to your door and tries to preach the Word of God as was delivered to Muhammad, peace be upon him, by the angel Gabriel, also known as the Qur'an?
And how do you feel when Mormons come to your door and try to preach the Word of God as was delivered to Joseph Smith, by the angel Moroni, also known as the Book of Mormon?
Muslims and Mormons believe as strongly in their religion as other Christians believe in theirs, so if you believe you're doing people a favor by trying to force your religion on them, then you had better not complain when another religion tries to force itself on you.

[BillyTheMountain]

Let me ask you,,
1) If someone were to kidnap your mother, sister, or brother/ torture and kill them,, Just for kicks ,, Would it be GOOD OR EVIL??

2) What would be a just punishment in your eyes??

Lostconch,

We know you are anti-Bush, but must you bring Guantanamo Bay Naval Base
into this thread??

[JJtheunicycle]

Lost conch,,

Why do you use 2 commas? Am I missing something?

[James_Potter]

Lost conch,,
Why do you use 2 commas? Am I missing something?
It says that in the bible you're supposed to use two,, didn't you read that part?

[UniBrier]

didn't you read that part?I thought it was the part that said "Seek and You Shall Find (http://www.unicyclist.com/forums/showpost.php?p=795392&postcount=181)".

[wobbling bear]

I don't think argue is the point,, Mark 16:15 And he said to them (Jesus) go into all the world and preach the Gospel (good news) to every creature. 16 He that believes and is baptised shall be saved, but he that believes not shall be damned.

looks like a marketing trick: with our product you'll be saved otherwise :mad: ....

what baffles me here is that it is contradictory with other teachings about caritas. so if you are a real christian you are obliged to skip this narrow interpretation.

BTW: to every "creature" ? interesting: do you preach your dog?

my message to those who quote the bible (or any ancient sacred book): it is more interesting to breathe it's spirit than to quote litterally with words of today out of context.

[monkeyman]

my message to those who quote the bible (or any ancient sacred book): it is more interesting to breathe it's spirit than to quote litterally with words of today out of context.

THANK YOU!

[lostconch]

looks like a marketing trick: with our product you'll be saved otherwise :mad: ....

what baffles me here is that it is contradictory with other teachings about caritas. so if you are a real christian you are obliged to skip this narrow interpretation.

BTW: to every "creature" ? interesting: do you preach your dog?

my message to those who quote the bible (or any ancient sacred book): it is more interesting to breathe it's spirit than to quote litterally with words of today out of context.

Some marketing trick,, pick up your cross and follow me,, good chance you'll be persecuted or killed for my names sake,, These people witnessed a dead man rise from the dead and were willing to die for what they knew they saw,, they wouldn't be willing to give it all up for what they knew was a lie,, Some today are willing to die for what they believe in,, nobody goes that far for what they know is false..

I guess you could preach to dogs if they could qualify with the second part of belief...

[James_Potter]

Some marketing trick,, pick up your cross and follow me,, good chance you'll be persecuted or killed for my names sake,, These people witnessed a dead man rise from the dead and were willing to die for what they knew they saw,, they wouldn't be willing to give it all up for what they knew was a lie,, Some today are willing to die for what they believe in,, nobody goes that far for what they know is false..

I guess you could preach to dogs if they could qualify with the second part of belief...

That doesn't apply anymore, so that's not what we're talking about...nowadays it's almost even more socially acceptable to be Christian than not. Nowadays the Christians are saying pick up your cross and follow me,, or else you will burn in Hell for eternity. Hey that rhymes!! I could be a Christian Rock Star.

[forrestunifreak]

That doesn't apply anymore, so that's not what we're talking about...nowadays it's almost even more socially acceptable to be Christian than not.

Thank you for being the judge of all humanity!

[James_Potter]

Thank you for being the judge of all humanity!
You know perfectly well that's not what I'm saying. I said almost for a reason. If, in Idaho and most of the USA I think, you say you're Christian, most people will say 'yeah cool whatever.' But if you say you're Muslim, especially if you don't have dark skin or a beard, most people will be kinda, 'ooookay....'
you know?
But anyway that was COMPLETELY besides the point of my post. The point is that evangelical Christians like to tell you you'll go to Hell if you don't accept Christ Jesus as the Messiah or whatever.
In my experience, anyway.

[lostconch]

You know perfectly well that's not what I'm saying. I said almost for a reason. If, in Idaho and most of the USA I think, you say you're Christian, most people will say 'yeah cool whatever.' But if you say you're Muslim, especially if you don't have dark skin or a beard, most people will be kinda, 'ooookay....'
you know?
But anyway that was COMPLETELY besides the point of my post. The point is that evangelical Christians like to tell you you'll go to Hell if you don't accept Christ Jesus as the Messiah or whatever.
In my experience, anyway.

Forget the USA, Folks here think getting their feelings hurt is persecution,, People are being killed in other parts of this planet for their decision to follow The Christ..

Secondly people are in danger of the judgement not because of lack of belief but because of breaking the law,, And nobody can accept Jesus, like he needs our acceptance,, We repent and trust in the savior and he accepts us,, it is not about us, it is about HIM..

What kind of person would let a blindman walk off a cliff without trying to warn him?? That is the dilemma of what you are calling an evangelical Christian,, I'll be honest with you there are not that many of us,, there are a lot of conservatives that sit in churches and fall into the catagory/demographic you describe as far as polls go,, but people that really go and share the Gospel message with anyone are few,, that is what an evangelist is supposed to be,, As far as hell goes that is what the book says,, we warn you about it, you condemn yourself...

[mscalisi]

...but what if you're wrong. Maybe Allah really is the one true god. ..or maybe the book of mormon is truely devine.

Maybe YOU are the blindman about to walk off the cliff. What if you're being warned, and you choose to ignore it. Maybe you're simply leading others off the same cliff.

Maybe you're right, and I'm really going to hell. At least I'll be with my friends.

Forget the USA, Folks here think getting their feelings hurt is persecution,, People are being killed in other parts of this planet for their decision to follow The Christ..

Secondly people are in danger of the judgement not because of lack of belief but because of breaking the law,, And nobody can accept Jesus, like he needs our acceptance,, We repent and trust in the savior and he accepts us,, it is not about us, it is about HIM..

What kind of person would let a blindman walk off a cliff without trying to warn him?? That is the dilemma of what you are calling an evangelical Christian,, I'll be honest with you there are not that many of us,, there are a lot of conservatives that sit in churches and fall into the catagory/demographic you describe as far as polls go,, but people that really go and share the Gospel message with anyone are few,, that is what an evangelist is supposed to be,, As far as hell goes that is what the book says,, we warn you about it, you condemn yourself...

[JJuggle]

What kind of person would let a blindman walk off a cliff without trying to warn him??
There is, of course, ample evidence that falling off a cliff is hazardous to one's health. Regardless of what you believe you can not offer similar proof regarding a lack of belief in Jesus Christ.

Should I feel guilty about not spending more of my time trying to convince you that you are wasting yours?

[mscalisi]

In some parts of the country that's literally true. I recently saw a documentary on an athiest family being ostracized in small town Oaklahoma.

...I don't get what you mean about "being the judge of all humanity"

Thank you for being the judge of all humanity!

[James_Potter]

In some parts of the country that's literally true. I recently saw a documentary on an athiest family being ostracized in small town Oaklahoma.
I watched that on youtube this morning, probably the same one you're talking about...I'd post it here, but my school blocks youtube, so I'll post it when I get home.

[James_Potter]

What kind of person would let a blindman walk off a cliff without trying to warn him?? That is the dilemma of what you are calling an evangelical Christian,, I'll be honest with you there are not that many of us,, there are a lot of conservatives that sit in churches and fall into the catagory/demographic you describe as far as polls go,, but people that really go and share the Gospel message with anyone are few,, that is what an evangelist is supposed to be,, As far as hell goes that is what the book says,, we warn you about it, you condemn yourself...
How do you know you're not throwing yourself off the cliff? Sounds like you're just a bunch of Lemmings...listen mate, throw yourself off your own cliff and hope Jesus catches you if you want to, but let the rest of us throw ourselves off of whatever cliff we choose. kthxbye

[JJuggle]

listen mate, throw yourself off your own cliff and hope Jesus catches you if you want to,
James, James, that is not a very kind thing to say.

but let the rest of us throw ourselves off of whatever cliff we choose.
I'm pretty sure the idea, no matter what it is you believe, is not to end up off a cliff.

[Goats_On_Unicycles]

How do you know you're not throwing yourself off the cliff? Sounds like you're just a bunch of Lemmings...listen mate, throw yourself off your own cliff and hope Jesus catches you if you want to, but let the rest of us throw ourselves off of whatever cliff we choose. kthxbye
actually Lemmings don't jump off of cliffs... :p

but to the point, if a certain religion works for you and makes you a better, kinder person, go for it! just don't say it works for everyone cuz it dosn't.

[James_Potter]

James, James, that is not a very kind thing to say.
I'm pretty sure the idea, no matter what it is you believe, is not to end up off a cliff.
Yeah I know...I was just sorta ranting not knowing what I was saying...but actually I think that religion is a lot like jumping off something really high, because we all go as far as reason will take us but in the end we have to take some leap of faith, not really knowing if it's the right choice but hoping.

actually Lemmings don't jump off of cliffs... :p
but to the point, if a certain religion works for you and makes you a better, kinder person, go for it! just don't say it works for everyone cuz it dosn't.
Oh I know, I was just using the metaphor....

[BillyTheMountain]

And nobody can accept Jesus, ...

I can.

But you're right. George Bush hasn't accepted Jesus. Congress hasn't accepted Jesus. All the Americans that supported aggression against the Iraqi people haven't accepted Jesus.

They accepted someone who looks a bit like Jesus. But they didn't accept Jesus.

Jesus said: How you treat the least of humanity is how you treat me. Turn the other cheek. Never support war. --Jesus of Nazareth

[BillyTheMountain]

I can.

But you're right. George Bush hasn't accepted Jesus. Congress hasn't accepted Jesus. All the Americans that supported aggression against the Iraqi people haven't accepted Jesus.

They accepted someone who looks a bit like Jesus. But they didn't accept Jesus.

Jesus said: How you treat the least of humanity is how you treat me. Turn the other cheek. Never support war. --Jesus of Nazareth

So in a sense, you're saying the so-called christians have accepted an unreasonable facsimile of Jesus. Wow!! The the so-called christians worship an idol, not really the ONE GOD, not even the true Jesus, just something they really invented, without much concern for the true Jesus, of the Bible.

Maybe that's why so-called christians are much less concerned with idolatry than Jews and Muslims, cuz they do idolatry.

[dudewithasock]

Why are you responding to yourself?

[James_Potter]

I watched that on youtube this morning, probably the same one you're talking about...I'd post it here, but my school blocks youtube, so I'll post it when I get home.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPO_b-pWmX4
Here it is!

[lostconch]

I know I'm not saskahtehchewiawan, but I like his beliefs.

1) Depends on whose perspective you're looking at. From theirs (assuming they are psychopaths or something of the sort), it might not be evil - maybe not good, but maybe not evil, either. I would say it's evil, because I believe evil is simply extending your own inalienable rights further than someone else's. But just because I say it's evil doesn't make it absolutely, truly, 100% EVIL. You following me?

2) Kill 'em, duh.

You gave the same answer I expected from the other,, The new frame of mind is no absolutes,, folks can't even call wrong, wrong,, PC is so ingrained in our way of thinking and everything we're taught,, If it is not wrong then why punish the guy?? The reason is because nobody wants what they do to be judged either,, You know it's wrong though you search for a way to avoid saying it.. This is an easy one "Thou shalt not commit murder"

The younger you are the more likely you are to think this way

[James_Potter]

You gave the same answer I expected from the other,, The new frame of mind is no absolutes,, folks can't even call wrong, wrong,, PC is so ingrained in our way of thinking and everything we're taught,, If it is not wrong then why punish the guy?? The reason is because nobody wants what they do to be judged either,, You know it's wrong though you search for a way to avoid saying it.. This is an easy one "Thou shalt not commit murder"
The younger you are the more likely you are to think this way
I don't think PC refers to murderers, it's more like there's no reason to call people niggers, yids, fags, or anything else that has hateful intent. Taking the life from any sentient being is wrong, no matter the religion, it would be hard to argue that. But letting others live their life peacefully without hurting anything else, it would be hard to convince anyone that is wrong.

[dudewithasock]

You gave the same answer I expected from the other,, The new frame of mind is no absolutes,, folks can't even call wrong, wrong,, PC is so ingrained in our way of thinking and everything we're taught,, If it is not wrong then why punish the guy?? The reason is because nobody wants what they do to be judged either,, You know it's wrong though you search for a way to avoid saying it.. This is an easy one "Thou shalt not commit murder"

The younger you are the more likely you are to think this way

Uh...no...why are you proportionalizing 'evil' and 'punishment'? Punishment in no way signifies something absolutely evil, since, as I already explained to you, evil is not an absolute. A punishment is just as relative as evil...one man's punishment could be another man's reward.

[lostconch]

I can.

But you're right. George Bush hasn't accepted Jesus. Congress hasn't accepted Jesus. All the Americans that supported aggression against the Iraqi people haven't accepted Jesus.

They accepted someone who looks a bit like Jesus. But they didn't accept Jesus.

Jesus said: How you treat the least of humanity is how you treat me. Turn the other cheek. Never support war. --Jesus of Nazareth

Billy,, I know you have the G. Bush thing going and history will decide in our country's eyes how this has all played out,, There were many people that didn't want us in WWI or WWII now it is a given, or Korea or Vietnam or anything we have ever done for that matter,, War, sickness, death, suffering,, name the problem it is not part of the plan/final outcome of the earthly existance of man and his dealings with his Creator.. They are all the outcome of disobedience to the law,, and the beat goes on

Maybe in 30 years your grand children will all be living under islamic law right here in the good ole N American Outpost.. It is almost certain at this point we will fall to socialism,, only uncertainty is can the islamic culture get the same inroads in our society as they have in Europe,, Our Mexicans might stop them for a while but bankrupt us in the interim,, Spain has fallen, France is following,, Great Brittain is not far behind,,

This war will end up being fought somewhere by someone,, Bush has the position of being the one that had to make the decisions,, In the beginning even the big libs were reading all the same intel and in agreement,, now they claim otherwise,, Bush is still the one that has to be the decision maker while everyone else can play armchair QB,, The beauty of living in a basically free society is the ability to publically complain,, that little beny won't be around too much longer if we keep heading in our current direction,,

2 out of 3 on the Jesus quotes ain't bad,, "How you treat the least" sure help all that you can and basically we are performing that help directly to the Lord,, Give to a system that perpetuates poverty generation after generation is not help.. Turn the other cheek is an obvious personal morality truth,, Never support war is not in the book,, But it seems to me they should be JUST wars, time will determine this one's justification one way or the other,, though the entire war issue is heartbreaking,, conflicts like these will never end until this world is put back into the order that was the original design

[James_Potter]

Billy,, I know you have the G. Bush thing going and history will decide in our country's eyes how this has all played out,, There were many people that didn't want us in WWI or WWII now it is a given, or Korea or Vietnam or anything we have ever done for that matter,, War, sickness, death, suffering,, name the problem it is not part of the plan/final outcome of the earthly existance of man and his dealings with his Creator.. They are all the outcome of disobedience to the law,, and the beat goes on
There are still people who think we should not have been in either World War or Korea or Vietnam, those who believe in nonviolent means instead of violent ones. Suffering will always exist no matter what. Not everyone believes that there is a plan or a final outcome, or even a Creator at all.

Maybe in 30 years your grand children will all be living under islamic law right here in the good ole N American Outpost.. It is almost certain at this point we will fall to socialism,, only uncertainty is can the islamic culture get the same inroads in our society as they have in Europe,, Our Mexicans might stop them for a while but bankrupt us in the interim,, Spain has fallen, France is following,, Great Brittain is not far behind,,
I haven't seen a single thing to suggest that the United States has been threatened to be under Islamic law. We may fall to socialism, but that's not a bad thing, Canada is socialist and have you ever been there? It is much more enjoyable, less violence, people are nicer, free health care even if you can't afford it. Seems to be working far better than capitalism in our country.

This war will end up being fought somewhere by someone,, Bush has the position of being the one that had to make the decisions,, In the beginning even the big libs were reading all the same intel and in agreement,, now they claim otherwise,, Bush is still the one that has to be the decision maker while everyone else can play armchair QB,,
More like Bush usurped the position of being the one that had to make the decisions. This war had nothing to do with us, besides the fact that it's happening on the ground where we get our oil.

The beauty of living in a basically free society is the ability to publically complain,, that little beny won't be around too much longer if we keep heading in our current direction,,
Explain, I don't see how our 'current direction' will destroy free speech.

2 out of 3 on the Jesus quotes ain't bad,, "How you treat the least" sure help all that you can and basically we are performing that help directly to the Lord,, Give to a system that perpetuates poverty generation after generation is not help.. Turn the other cheek is an obvious personal morality truth,, Never support war is not in the book,, But it seems to me they should be JUST wars, time will determine this one's justification one way or the other,, though the entire war issue is heartbreaking,, conflicts like these will never end until this world is put back into the order that was the original design
If war means you hurt other living beings, then Jesus would never have supported any war, "just" or otherwise.

[BillyTheMountain]

Billy,, I know you have the G. Bush thing going and history will decide in our country's eyes how this has all played out,, There were many people that didn't want us in WWI or WWII now it is a given, or Korea or Vietnam or anything we have ever done for that matter,, War, sickness, death, suffering,, name the problem it is not part of the plan/final outcome of the earthly existance of man and his dealings with his Creator.. They are all the outcome of disobedience to the law,, and the beat goes on

Maybe in 30 years your grand children will all be living under islamic law right here in the good ole N American Outpost.. It is almost certain at this point we will fall to socialism,, only uncertainty is can the islamic culture get the same inroads in our society as they have in Europe,, Our Mexicans might stop them for a while but bankrupt us in the interim,, Spain has fallen, France is following,, Great Brittain is not far behind,,

This war will end up being fought somewhere by someone,, Bush has the position of being the one that had to make the decisions,, In the beginning even the big libs were reading all the same intel and in agreement,, now they claim otherwise,, Bush is still the one that has to be the decision maker while everyone else can play armchair QB,, The beauty of living in a basically free society is the ability to publically complain,, that little beny won't be around too much longer if we keep heading in our current direction,,

2 out of 3 on the Jesus quotes ain't bad,, "How you treat the least" sure help all that you can and basically we are performing that help directly to the Lord,, Give to a system that perpetuates poverty generation after generation is not help.. Turn the other cheek is an obvious personal morality truth,, Never support war is not in the book,, But it seems to me they should be JUST wars, time will determine this one's justification one way or the other,, though the entire war issue is heartbreaking,, conflicts like these will never end until this world is put back into the order that was the original design

You can always justify idolatry.

But why not give up your unreasonable (war-monging) facsimile and try the True Jesus.

[dudewithasock]

You can always justify idolatry.

But why not give up your unreasonable (war-monging) facsimile and try the True Jesus.

William, you have made me see the light!

[BillyTheMountain]

William, you have made me see the light!

I wasn't aware you were following the false Jesus of Lostconch. But hey, glad to shed light.

[dudewithasock]

I was referencing your reference to True Jesus.

[monkeyman]

But it seems to me they should be JUST wars, time will determine this one's justification one way or the other

Yes, I agree. We should shoot first and ask questions later. Time will tell, after all. And thanks to my fancy time machine, if we decide it was a bad choice, we can go back and change it.

I haven't seen a single thing to suggest that the United States has been threatened to be under Islamic law.
Well no, but that doesn't matter. If we get it ingrained into peoples' minds that we're in danger, we won't have to use the time machine later.

We may fall to socialism, but that's not a bad thing, Canada is socialist and have you ever been there? It is much more enjoyable, less violence, people are nicer, free health care even if you can't afford it. Seems to be working far better than capitalism in our country.
Wrong. You seem to be stretching the effects of an economic system a little too far. There are very nice people in Cuba too, I'm sure.

[BillyTheMountain]

I was referencing your reference to True Jesus.

I know. Are you interested in the unreasonable facsimile (war-monging) Jesus IDOL, which more than half of so-called christians have accepted?

Or the True Jesus?

Or are you just here to mess around?

[James_Potter]

I know. Are you interested in the unreasonable facsimile (war-monging) Jesus IDOL, which more than half of so-called christians have accepted?
Or the True Jesus?
Or are you just here to mess around?
there's plenty others to choose from too (http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Jesus)!!

[dudewithasock]

I'm thinkin' number 3.

[wobbling bear]

Maybe in 30 years your grand children will all be living under islamic law right here in the good ole N American Outpost.. It is almost certain at this point we will fall to socialism,, only uncertainty is can the islamic culture get the same inroads in our society as they have in Europe,, Our Mexicans might stop them for a while but bankrupt us in the interim,, Spain has fallen, France is following,, Great Brittain is not far behind,,

may I outline that there is a difference between being cautious about different incarnations of fascism and being outright paranoïd ....
being wary and able to fight is one thing (so some clashes may serve useful purposes) but putting all wars in the same basket does not teach us to try to be just and efficient ....
By the way I happen to know many fellow atheists in Morocco and no one has been hanged for it yet .... I could thrive in many muslims countries and not in certain "atheist" ones (namely North Korea) so we ought to be cautious about labels! stand for values !

[BillyTheMountain]

Lots of the so-called christians who accepted the false god IDOL war-monging gay-hating Jesus have found a big surprise waiting for them after death.

And there's lots of complaints coming back from the afterworld about it.

Those people accepted the wrong Jesus, and they got nothing after.

How could anyone think paradise would be filled with war-monging gay haters?

Or murdering virgin chasers?

[Divebomber]

Lots of the so-called christians who accepted the false god IDOL war-monging gay-hating Jesus have found a big surprise waiting for them after death.

And there's lots of complaints coming back from the afterworld about it.

Those people accepted the wrong Jesus, and they got nothing after.

How could anyone think paradise would be filled with war-monging gay haters?

Or murdering virgin chasers?

Well, I was going to stay out of this thread because I've been lurking around these forums and see that Christians trying to convert people on here isn't going over too well. For the record, I'm a Bible believing Christian and I think that it's about time to back off. I believe that we should preach the gospel just like the Bible says, but the Bible also says that after 2 or 3 tries it's on their own head and it should be left alone. I really just see the whole argument going in circles with no end in sight. I just don't see the point in trying to convert people over and over and over..

As for the above quote, I agree. Jesus is far from a war monging, gay hating fascist. In fact, He's the exact opposite. I see a lot of this attitude here in the south and I think that many "Christians" get the wrong idea. They tend to take the Bible a little too far. Jesus doesn't "hate" anyone, but hates sin. I'm sorry that people get this idea, but true Christianity is far from gay bashing and war monging. True Christianity is about following Christ. Christ by no means condones hate. Again, people tend to take things too far and even Christians get a distorted view of Christianity....

[monkeyman]

You're a smart dude, Divebomber. Not sure what part of the South you're in, but in Texas, it's pretty bad. Way too many conservative* rednecks (sadly, even among my peers)


*When I say conservative, I mean the people who still think the world is flat and who are so far right they're almost falling off the edge. The people who are die-hard Republicans and twist and distort logic to eliminate any failure by anyone affiliated with the Republicans.

[dudewithasock]

How could anyone think paradise would be filled with war-monging gay haters?

Or murdering virgin chasers?

You've got to keep in mind that the word 'paradise' is just as relative as good and evil. I'm sure there are a lot of people that can't wait to chill with their fellow war-mongering gay haters.

[forrestunifreak]

Jesus doesn't "hate" anyone, but hates sin.

Bingo. Who said I hated anyone? I can dissagree with something a person says or does without hating them.


Furthermore, I can hate something a person does without hating the person.

[Divebomber]

You're a smart dude, Divebomber. Not sure what part of the South you're in, but in Texas, it's pretty bad. Way too many conservative* rednecks (sadly, even among my peers)


*When I say conservative, I mean the people who still think the world is flat and who are so far right they're almost falling off the edge. The people who are die-hard Republicans and twist and distort logic to eliminate any failure by anyone affiliated with the Republicans.

I currently live in Tennessee, but am moving to Fl in a few weeks.
I'm a girl (I know you can't really tell from my pic)
and looks like I mispelled mongering.. I just copied it from Billy. I thought something was off. :D

[BillyTheMountain]

You've got to keep in mind that the word 'paradise' is just as relative as good and evil. I'm sure there are a lot of people that can't wait to chill with their fellow war-mongering gay haters.

Wow!

How did you DO that incredible perspective-taking??!

[dudewithasock]

William,

You're impossible. I never have any idea of what you're talking about.

[wobbling bear]

. Jesus doesn't "hate" anyone, but hates sin.
not being a christian I can't argue there but my impression is that he does not even hate sinners (there are numerous examples of that) so even the word "hate" should be written off christian vocabulary.
caritas and empathy should be the great virtues of any christian .... or so I suppose :rolleyes:

[BillyTheMountain]

Wow!

How did you DO that incredible perspective-taking??!

William,

You're impossible. I never have any idea of what you're talking about.

I was just impressed with your ability to stand in the shoes of people who could imagine a paradise which is composed of like-minded bigots, and deliberately excludes others. That's very cool perspective-taking.

BTM

From the internet:

As children mature, they take more information into account. They realize that different people can react differently to the same situation. They develop the ability to analyze the perspectives of several people involved in a situation from the viewpoint of an objective bystander, and they can even imagine how different cultural or social values would influence the perceptions of the bystander.

[dudewithasock]

I still can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.

[lostconch]

Well, I was going to stay out of this thread because I've been lurking around these forums and see that Christians trying to convert people on here isn't going over too well. For the record, I'm a Bible believing Christian and I think that it's about time to back off. I believe that we should preach the gospel just like the Bible says, but the Bible also says that after 2 or 3 tries it's on their own head and it should be left alone. I really just see the whole argument going in circles with no end in sight. I just don't see the point in trying to convert people over and over and over..

As for the above quote, I agree. Jesus is far from a war monging, gay hating fascist. In fact, He's the exact opposite. I see a lot of this attitude here in the south and I think that many "Christians" get the wrong idea. They tend to take the Bible a little too far. Jesus doesn't "hate" anyone, but hates sin. I'm sorry that people get this idea, but true Christianity is far from gay bashing and war monging. True Christianity is about following Christ. Christ by no means condones hate. Again, people tend to take things too far and even Christians get a distorted view of Christianity....

Nice to see you here,, Yep it goes in endless circles,, Haven't seen anything in the book about 2 or 3 times but I've been shown a lot of things I've missed before,, A Christians only responsibility is to inform the lost of their situation (done in Love) Bible states the rest is in the hands of God,, in other words people convert nobody,, God converts the heart..

Have you ever considered the guys on this forum have a view of what they believe are Christian people being warmongers and gay haters and what ever else I can't remember I've learned,, These views come from somewhere,, The fact that all sin is primarily against God regardless of what the sin is, a fact that the gay haters seem to forget,,

A truly converted heart realizes all Liars, Thieves, Adulturers, Homosexuals, Fornicators, Lusters etc will not inherit the kingdom of God,, Then they should realize they themselves fall with in that group,, which should create a tremendous humbleness and thankfulness for the salvation that God has provided regardless of their own depravity,, Therefore a true Christian can't look at anyone in judgement because they themselves can't meet the standard,, I can't know someones heart but I can observe actions and my observations tell me there are quite a lot of folks who are not Truly converted hearts..

Shouldn't be a surprise to any Christian,, read your parables The sheep and the Goats,, Wheat and the Tares,, perfect description of the nonbelievers being mixed with the believers,, seperation of the 2 groups will happen oneday..

Please stick around and jump in when you can,, You can learn a lot from hearing some of these views and arguments,, I've been in some other similar threads and most of the time the debate points are quite intelligent and will help prepare you for encounters that will come up again in face to face witnessing experiences,,

[BillyTheMountain]

I still can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.

DUDE!!

I am NOT being sarcastic.

Heaven for me (even a nice weekend in Heaven at the lake) would allow me to get away from gay-hating war-supporters.

You had the higher perspective, and pointed out that my idea of Hell is their idea of Heaven.

That made me go: Wow!

Truly.

Billy

Lostconch: Check your PMs.

[Divebomber]

Nice to see you here,, Yep it goes in endless circles,, Haven't seen anything in the book about 2 or 3 times but I've been shown a lot of things I've missed before,, A Christians only responsibility is to inform the lost of their situation (done in Love) Bible states the rest is in the hands of God,, in other words people convert nobody,, God converts the heart..

Have you ever considered the guys on this forum have a view of what they believe are Christian people being warmongers and gay haters and what ever else I can't remember I've learned,, These views come from somewhere,, The fact that all sin is primarily against God regardless of what the sin is, a fact that the gay haters seem to forget,,

A truly converted heart realizes all Liars, Thieves, Adulturers, Homosexuals, Fornicators, Lusters etc will not inherit the kingdom of God,, Then they should realize they themselves fall with in that group,, which should create a tremendous humbleness and thankfulness for the salvation that God has provided regardless of their own depravity,, Therefore a true Christian can't look at anyone in judgement because they themselves can't meet the standard,, I can't know someones heart but I can observe actions and my observations tell me there are quite a lot of folks who are not Truly converted hearts..

Shouldn't be a surprise to any Christian,, read your parables The sheep and the Goats,, Wheat and the Tares,, perfect description of the nonbelievers being mixed with the believers,, seperation of the 2 groups will happen oneday..

Please stick around and jump in when you can,, You can learn a lot from hearing some of these views and arguments,, I've been in some other similar threads and most of the time the debate points are quite intelligent and will help prepare you for encounters that will come up again in face to face witnessing experiences,,

Thanks! Thats pretty much what I said. There are a lot of people who call themselves Christians, but aren't. Those seem to be the ones who have the biggest influence on society today...

[Jerrick]

Again, people tend to take things too far and even Christians get a distorted view of Christianity....

What is sad about that, is thats what a lot of people see, and thats why a lot of people have a grudge against Christianity.

[forrestunifreak]

What is sad about that, is thats what a lot of people see, and thats why a lot of people have a grudge against Christianity.

Yeah, there's a lot of christianphobes out there...

[James_Potter]

What is sad about that, is thats what a lot of people see, and thats why a lot of people have a grudge against Christianity.
Same with Islam...Islam is, in my opinion, one of the most beautiful religions in the world if you understand it. And the extremists certainly do not understand it...neither do the Americans who believe all Muslims to be terrorists, because all they see or hear about is al Qaeda and the like.

[Jerrick]

Same with Islam...Islam is, in my opinion, one of the most beautiful religions in the world if you understand it. And the extremists certainly do not understand it...neither do the Americans who believe all Muslims to be terrorists, because all they see or hear about is al Qaeda and the like.


Yep, that's the type of media coverage that just destroys the real meaning about religions.

Just like that one that was out not too long ago, there was a thread about it, with the Christian family singing songs about killing all gay people, and protesting against everything they should be accepting and turning the other cheek too.

But, media shows the bad and extreme side of religion, and that's what people start to believe.

[James_Potter]

Yeah, bad news is the only thing the news will show or write, because it sells. No one wants to hear about people getting along loving each other...but if you do, there's happy news (http://www.happynews.com/)!!

[dudewithasock]

DUDE!!

I am NOT being sarcastic.

Heaven for me (even a nice weekend in Heaven at the lake) would allow me to get away from gay-hating war-supporters.

You had the higher perspective, and pointed out that my idea of Hell is their idea of Heaven.

That made me go: Wow!

Truly.

Billy

Lostconch: Check your PMs.

Wow. I actually feel honored that I impressed you.

:D

No one wants to hear about people getting along loving each other.

Ever hear of pornography? :p

[Divebomber]

Yep, that's the type of media coverage that just destroys the real meaning about religions.

Just like that one that was out not too long ago, there was a thread about it, with the Christian family singing songs about killing all gay people, and protesting against everything they should be accepting and turning the other cheek too.

But, media shows the bad and extreme side of religion, and that's what people start to believe.

Well, I don't believe Christianity is a "religion", but a relationship...

[dudewithasock]

Well, I don't believe Christianity is a "religion", but a relationship...

Wow...no sarcasm here, that is one of the most thought-provoking things concerning religion that I've ever heard.

[spazdude222]

Well, I don't believe Christianity is a "religion", but a relationship...
I like this statement and agree wholeheartedly with it. May I use it as my own?

[spazdude222]

Thanks! Thats pretty much what I said. There are a lot of people who call themselves Christians, but aren't. Those seem to be the ones who have the biggest influence on society today...
It isn't our place to judge. As a christian, it isn't my job to be sure you are a christian, but to help you be.

[Divebomber]

I like this statement and agree wholeheartedly with it. May I use it as my own?

No problem.

Christianity is about Jesus. Following Christ is having a personal relationship where you "talk" with God about everything and anything and pray about situations. Conversing with God is like talking to a best friend except, he doesn't "talk back" in the physical sense. Jesus is the reson why people believe in Him. If you read the Bible it all goes back to Christ. It is not about hate, or a set of rules. It all revolves around Christ. Through grace you change, not by holding steadfast to a set of beliefs and philosophies like in "religion".

Nobody willingly submits to Christ unless Christ puts it in your heart (mind) to follow Him. It isn't about YOU or anything YOU can do. It's ALL about Christ. I can promise you that God is nothing like the rightwinged party says it is. Christianity has nothing to do with politics. Or, shouldn't. Christ hates ALL sin. Doesn't matter if you're gay, straight, black, white, rich or poor. I can't stress these things enough when talking about Jesus!

[Divebomber]

It isn't our place to judge. As a christian, it isn't my job to be sure you are a christian, but to help you be.

I'm not casting judgement. I'm not saying to anyone specificially that "you are not saved", but it is a proven fact that there are people out there that do claim to be Christians, but do not truly follow Christ. Sometimes you can tell by the fruit they bare, but even then I am VERY cautious about that.

[spazdude222]

I agree. I hope I don't come accross as one of the far right scary type people...I mean, Iam conservative, but please someone be honest and tell me, do I seem like a bigot?

[spazdude222]

I'm not casting judgement. I'm not saying to anyone specificially that "you are not saved", but it is a proven fact that there are people out there that do claim to be Christians, but do not truly follow Christ. Sometimes you can tell by the fruit they bare, but even then I am VERY cautious about that.
Ok, good. I admire that cautiousness, because I've know many born again christians who lose their way and stop bearing fruit. To cease bearing spiritual fruit is not to cease being a christian. Once saved always saved.

[lostconch]

Same with Islam...Islam is, in my opinion, one of the most beautiful religions in the world if you understand it. And the extremists certainly do not understand it...neither do the Americans who believe all Muslims to be terrorists, because all they see or hear about is al Qaeda and the like.

Problem that it has right now is that the extremists are actually the ones that follow the Koran more strictly,, I had to go read some of the Koran just to check it out and get a feel for its content,, I'm sure the general figures are probably correct and the world is probably dealing with about a 10% extremist faction, problem is that # is huge and spread out, and everyone is an infidel worth killing..

Here is the issue that really counts,, Islam like all religions that claim a god, is based on some type of actions that earns ones way to salvation,, In Islam it is the 5 pillars, In Judiasim it is the 10 commandments,, they all realise the same problem "SIN" and try to solve it by what you can do,, upon death in Islam Allah then decides if you can enter the kingdom based on your adherence to the 5 pillars.. Christianity (if you want to call it a religion) is not based on anything you can do to earn your way out of the sin issue,, it is based on God providing it for you just out of nothing but pure love and grace..

[James_Potter]

Problem that it has right now is that the extremists are actually the ones that follow the Koran more strictly,, I had to go read some of the Koran just to check it out and get a feel for its content,, I'm sure the general figures are probably correct and the world is probably dealing with about a 10% extremist faction, problem is that # is huge and spread out, and everyone is an infidel worth killing..
Read the book Muhammad by Karen Armstrong...the thing about the Qur'an is that a lot of it is historical fact, and some of the chapters which describe killing and fighting the enemy are just the stories of actual battles. See, when Muhammad first started getting visions from Gabriel which later become the Qur'an, he was preaching to all the Arabs who were polytheists, and he was saying their religion is wrong. And then (if I remember correctly) Muhammad and his followers, the first Muslims, were exiled from Mecca, but not without a fight. And even after they did leave, Mecca is still the holy land or whatever so they wanted to get back there for the Kaaba, that big black building Muslims circle during the Hajj. All the parts of the Qur'an which describe fighting, even though they sound really nasty and vicious, they're just describing battles between the first Muslims and the original Arab religion.
One more thing, even when it does say War is okay, it says that God doesn't condone being the one to attack, but that it's only alright to fight a War if you're the one under fire, so you're allowed to defend yourself.
Like I said above the book Muhammad by Karen Armstrong is the best on this subject.

[BillyTheMountain]

Yeah, there's a lot of christianphobes out there...

The True Christians don't seem to be spending too much effort offering the truth to the homophobic war-supporting idol worshippers who wrongly believe they are christians. That's the saddest--cuz the homophobic war-supporting idol worshippers think they've accepted Jesus, when in fact they've accepted an idol, and when the True Christians get paradise, the idol worshippers don't. That's a big dissappointment, much bigger than the Atheists suffer, cuz the Atheist don't expect paradise.

On the other hand, in Islam, there is a very active movement in Europe and the USA to keep Islam peaceful and True. They held international feminist Muslim conferences in Spain and NYC this year. Like Sheikha Fariha al Jerrahi (a sheikha is a woman sheikh) said: the terrorists have removed the heart from the religion. Take the heart out of a person, and you cannot still claim it's the person. Take the heart out of Islam, and you cannot call it Islam.

Of course, the homophobic war-supporting idol worshippers have taken the heart out of Christianity, too. So it's not christianity, and they are not following Christ.

On this one, I think the True Christians could take a lesson from the True Muslims, to help us all on the path to becoming True Humans.

BTM

[James_Potter]

Like Sheikha Fariha al Jerrahi (a sheikha is a woman sheikh) said: the terrorists have removed the heart from the religion. Take the heart out of a person, and you cannot still claim it's the person. Take the heart out of Islam, and you cannot call it Islam.
Reminds me of something Gandhi said:

"As soon as we lose the moral basis, we cease to be religious. There is no such thing as religion overriding morality. Man, for instance, cannot be untruthful, cruel and incontinent and claim to have God on his side."

[spazdude222]

The True Christians For starters, I did read the whole post, and I agree with it. I do think it's sad that the majority of Christians living the way Jesus wants us too are silent, but I think you should be careful in throwing around the term "true christians." It is not, nor will it ever be, your place (or anyone else for that matter) to judge who is or is not actually a christian. I'm not saying it's ok to hate anyone, or try to start wars, but to make blanket statements (especially ones like those you have been making about "true christians" versus "fake christians") is to shoot yourself in the foot. Again, let me stress that I agree to your point about misconstruing the teachings of christ, but don't claim those people aren't real christians. It goes back to what divebomber said that I expounded on: just because they bear no fruit, doesn't mean they aren't christians; it could mean they merely lost their way. All that to reapeat this- Once saved, always saved. If you begin to stray from Jesus, he won't be ok with it, but he won't re-condemn you either.

[BillyTheMountain]

All that to reapeat this- Once saved, always saved. If you begin to stray from Jesus, he won't be ok with it, but he won't re-condemn you either.

Except that the gay-hating war-supporting fake idol Jesus cannot save anyone, so those who follow the idol have never been saved.

[Divebomber]

Except that the gay-hating war-supporting fake idol Jesus cannot save anyone, so those who follow the idol have never been saved.

I think I get what you're saying.. You're saying that those people who have the wrong idea of Christianity believe that no one can be saved and they themselves have never been saved?


I'm just trying to make sense of your comment because it's a little difficult to follow...

[BillyTheMountain]

I think I get what you're saying.. You're saying that those people who have the wrong idea of Christianity believe that no one can be saved and they themselves have never been saved?


I'm just trying to make sense of your comment because it's a little difficult to follow...

No.

It doesn't matter what those who have the wrong idea of Jesus think aobut who can be saved. They are NOT saved.

I'm saying that those who have a relationship with a gay-hating war-supporting Jesus have a relationship with an idol, a fake, an imposter, who never could save them and never will.

Yet they believe they've accepted True Jesus, because some misguided right-wing hateful preacher sold them a bill of goods.

Very sad.

Peace.

[Divebomber]

No.

It doesn't matter what those who have the wrong idea of Jesus think aobut who can be saved. They are NOT saved.

I'm saying that those who have a relationship with a gay-hating war-supporting Jesus have a relationship with an idol, a fake, an imposter, who never could save them and never will.

Yet they believe they've accepted True Jesus, because some misguided right-wing hateful preacher sold them a bill of goods.

Very sad.

Peace.

Oh, yeah...I agree with that..

[BillyTheMountain]

Oh, yeah...I agree with that..

Cool.
Thanks for pushing me to greater clarity.
I'm often misunderstood.

Peace.

BTM

[monkeyman]

Please stick around and jump in when you can,, You can learn a lot from hearing some of these views and arguments,, I've been in some other similar threads and most of the time the debate points are quite intelligent and will help prepare you for encounters that will come up again in face to face witnessing experiences,,

I disagree with a lot of what you say, lostconch, but you're a good Christian. Props.

Christianity is about Jesus. Following Christ is having a personal relationship where you "talk" with God about everything and anything and pray about situations.
So how is there a God? Wouldn't this mean that everyone's God is different? If Christianity is a purely personal relationship with God, then you have very little moral (or logical) ground to tell someone their religious view is wrong.


Nobody willingly submits to Christ unless Christ puts it in your heart (mind) to follow Him. It isn't about YOU or anything YOU can do. It's ALL about Christ.
Predestination, yuck. Sorry, but I can't buy into this. To me, it makes God sound like a childish toddler who creates things for the pure sake of destroying them. If nothing I can do will help me, why should I try?

I can promise you that God is nothing like the rightwinged party says it is. Christianity has nothing to do with politics. Or, shouldn't. Christ hates ALL sin. Doesn't matter if you're gay, straight, black, white, rich or poor. I can't stress these things enough when talking about Jesus!

We agree here. Assuming God/Allah/whatever interacts with humanity, it makes sense that all sin would be hated. Are you saying, though, that all sin is equal? I don't understand this view. If you argue from a standpoint of God loving everyone as His children, it seems like He would frown upon torturing and murdering people a bit more than casually checking out an attractive girl.

[Divebomber]

So how is there a God? Wouldn't this mean that everyone's God is different? If Christianity is a purely personal relationship with God, then you have very little moral (or logical) ground to tell someone their religious view is wrong.


Actually, it is a little bit more complicated than that. Christians believe on what Christ taught. A relationship with Christ is personal, but also rooted in His word (the Bible) which gives us plently of "moral" and "logical" ground to disagree with other religious views. God's word has no error (which I'm not looking to argue here) and Jesus talks very plainly about false idols (other religions) over and over thought the Bible. Jesus was the only one to claim to be The Son of God. There is only one God. Everything else is an idol...


Predestination, yuck. Sorry, but I can't buy into this. To me, it makes God sound like a childish toddler who creates things for the pure sake of destroying them. If nothing I can do will help me, why should I try?

Jesus is Jesus. The creator of everything in existance. He can do whatever He wants. He creates vessels (people) to both show His mercy and to show He is just. We, as the created have no right to say what is fair and isn't. If God calls certain people and not other's, that is totally up to God and not us, the created. There really is nothing you can do in your own power to help you. There is nothing I or anyone can do for that matter. Everything, including salvation is a gift from Jesus. Everything begins and ends with Him.

We agree here. Assuming God/Allah/whatever interacts with humanity, it makes sense that all sin would be hated. Are you saying, though, that all sin is equal? I don't understand this view. If you argue from a standpoint of God loving everyone as His children, it seems like He would frown upon torturing and murdering people a bit more than casually checking out an attractive girl.

Well, in the eyes of man, there are different "levels" of sin. Like rape, murder and abuse are "worse" sins than lying to your mom, cussing or looking at a woman with lust. But to God, sin is sin. There are no different "levels" like there are with man. I know thats hard to believe, but God does not look at one person as "worse" than another because we are all sinners, fall short and we are all deserving of the same fate, (Hell). There is nothing "good" in anyone. Meaning, we're all sinful and have no real goodness even if some of us don't go out and kill people. Jesus is the only one who is good.

I believe Jesus does love the creation as a whole to give sun, rain and everything we need to live. He does all of that for the just (the Christians) and the unjust (the non-Christians) and through it, it demonstrates His longsuffering with humanity to let us continue to live the way we do and still being able to have oxygen to breathe, sun and water to live, but God has favor with His chosen and shows mercy on them now and in the final judgement by pardoning our sins and letting us join Him in Heaven. Again, this is something He does at His will and not ours...

[monkeyman]

Actually, it is a little bit more complicated than that. Christians believe on what Christ taught. A relationship with Christ is personal, but also rooted in His word (the Bible) which gives us plently of "moral" and "logical" ground to disagree with other religious views. God's word has no error (which I'm not looking to argue here) and Jesus talks very plainly about false idols (other religions) over and over thought the Bible. Jesus was the only one to claim to be The Son of God. There is only one God. Everything else is an idol...
So what if, through your personal relationship with Jesus, he were to lead you to the understanding that the current version of the Bible is "wrong"? What happens then? Is it your place to tell someone that they are conversing with the wrong Jesus?


He creates vessels (people) to both show His mercy and to show He is just.
So, He creates Man to show Man that he is just and merciful?
http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/5448/circularreasoningeu3.gif (http://imageshack.us)

There is nothing I or anyone can do for that matter. Everything, including salvation is a gift from Jesus.
So why try? Why not live your life however you see fit? If nothing you do affects your afterlife, why bother trying to be good?


Well, in the eyes of man, there are different "levels" of sin. Like rape, murder and abuse are "worse" sins than lying to your mom, cussing or looking at a woman with lust. But to God, sin is sin. There are no different "levels" like there are with man.
Ok, I can buy this. I don't believe it, but it's plausible for a god to see sin this way.

There is nothing "good" in anyone. Meaning, we're all sinful and have no real goodness even if some of us don't go out and kill people. Jesus is the only one who is good.

So, this is your circle of life, basically:

- God creates Man in a twisted, distorted image of himself, taking out anything good
- God makes belief in Him a prerequisite to not suffering forever in Hell*
- God then turns around and makes it so that no one may believe in/have a relationship with Him without His permission, no matter how hard you try
- God then turns around and permits random people entrance to Heaven, and dooms the rest to Hell, basically nullifying the reason he sent Jesus in the first place
-Lather, rinse, repeat

*It should be noted here that since there is nothing good in anyone, no one can believe in God, since belief in God is typically considered to be a "good" thing. Unless of course, there can be some good things in people, which means you have to define what exactly a good thing is. And since, according to the Bible, God is the moral absolute, the only "good" can come from "holy" things. Which means that those who have more "holy" qualities (which can be assumed to be the qualities God values in the Bible, such as humility, love, and compassion) have more "good" in them. We seem to have entered a logical conundrum through which the only possible solution is that God is a hypocrite. And of course, since God frowns upon that quality, it is a "bad" thing (don't forget that "God" is the moral absolute), which means that God isn't perfect.

[Divebomber]

So what if, through your personal relationship with Jesus, he were to lead you to the understanding that the current version of the Bible is "wrong"? What happens then? Is it your place to tell someone that they are conversing with the wrong Jesus?

God will never deny Himself nor go back on His own word. II Timothy 2:13: "If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself.".

So, He creates Man to show Man that he is just and merciful?
http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/5448/circularreasoningeu3.gif (http://imageshack.us)

So why try? Why not live your life however you see fit? If nothing you do affects your afterlife, why bother trying to be good?

Because I'm commanded to live my life according to God's word. Doing it any other way would be against God. As for the first part of your question, I can't answer why God does what He does and why He does it. It's His thing. No one can fully understand Him on this side of eternity.

Ok, I can buy this. I don't believe it, but it's plausible for a god to see sin this way.

Ok.

So, this is your circle of life, basically:

- God creates Man in a twisted, distorted image of himself, taking out anything good.

No, Originally God created us in His perfect image. When man went and did his own thing by being disobedient to Christ we fell and sin entered the world. Thus, we distorted God's image...

- God makes belief in Him a prerequisite to not suffering forever in Hell*

Sort-of. Jesus does pre-predestine people, but not for our purpose, but for His purpose. To spend eternity with Him.

- God then turns around and makes it so that no one may believe in/have a relationship with Him without His permission, no matter how hard you try

Well, basically. You're making God out to be very small and almost like He has no right to say what anyone can do. Which is untrue. God is God and can do as He pleases, since He is the Creator of all things...


- God then turns around and permits random people entrance to Heaven, and dooms the rest to Hell, basically nullifying the reason he sent Jesus in the first place

Well, "random" isn't how God sees it, but I can see your point. Jesus was sent to save people from their sins. Even if I was predestined, sin is still an issue that seperates me from Him because He is a Holy God, free from sin. Someone had to take care of it, which is why Jesus came. In the Old Tesitment people made sacrifices to God that were the first born Rams of Goats in the flock. They had to be spotless and healthy. This represents Christ. We need a sacrifice that is spotless and blameless. No one was able to do so, so out of God's mercy, He sent His Son to do it.

*It should be noted here that since there is nothing good in anyone, no one can believe in God, since belief in God is typically considered to be a "good" thing. Unless of course, there can be some good things in people, which means you have to define what exactly a good thing is. And since, according to the Bible, God is the moral absolute, the only "good" can come from "holy" things. Which means that those who have more "holy" qualities (which can be assumed to be the qualities God values in the Bible, such as humility, love, and compassion) have more "good" in them. We seem to have entered a logical conundrum through which the only possible solution is that God is a hypocrite. And of course, since God frowns upon that quality, it is a "bad" thing (don't forget that "God" is the moral absolute), which means that God isn't perfect.


What I must've failed to get accross is that, you're right. No one is good, but God is. By His mercy He calls people to Himself. He takes pity on them and cleanses them of their sins making them spotless and blameless. Those who follow Christ are forgiven for their sins and they are not counted against them if they repent of their sins and seek forgiveness. How is this so if no one is good? Because the purpose of Christ coming to die was to take away all sin, meaning that He took the blame and thus, making me blameless in the sight of God because I believe in Jesus. Jesus is the only one who is Holy. So...he is the only one who can make me Holy.

I think what I'm failing to mention is that God really is a God of love. He is love and all that He does for the Christian is out of love. Jesus shows compassion on me in spite of my sin and cleanses me from it. In His sight I am blameless because I follow Him. You might ask, how is He loving if not all people are saved? Because God is a God of mercy, but also a righteous and Holy God. Those who don't believe in Him will have to pay for their sin. Regardless of what happens, sin must be dealt with. Again, why doesn't God just heal everyone? I don't know.

[dudewithasock]

Divebomber, you're just about the most well-versed Christian I know. Your responses to everything are well-said and make sense, which means either you're the ideal Christian or an extremely good human manipulator. :P

[Divebomber]

Thank you. But I just want people to know Jesus for who He really is and what He's about. If you guys don't believe in Him that's between you and God, but I honestly hope you see the truth and follow Him. But it's entirely up to God.

[monkeyman]

In His sight I am blameless because I follow Him.
But, according to predestination, you only follow him because he allows you to. Like Matt just said, you've obviously though out your beliefs quite well, and you're very well-spoken. I just take issue with saying a loving God refuses entrance to Heaven to some people no matter how hard they try.

[Divebomber]

But, according to predestination, you only follow him because he allows you to. Like Matt just said, you've obviously though out your beliefs quite well, and you're very well-spoken. I just take issue with saying a loving God refuses entrance to Heaven to some people no matter how hard they try.

I can see your fustration with this. And I wish I could tell you different, but if I can say; Christ goes as far as to put that desire in your heart (your mind) to even want a relationship with Him. You wouldn't "try" without Him putting that desire within you to begin with. It also says in Matthew 7:7 it says,

"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.".

And, Ephesians 1:3-6: 3, "3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4. just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5. having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6. to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved."

It pleases Him greatly to draw people to Himself. And since it is Him who draws people, He will give you the desire to seek Him. And just like it says in Matthew 7:7, if you seek you will find Him.

[saskatchewanian]

wow a lot has happened on this thread since i was last in civilization. I realize that the conversation has evolved past this quite a bit but I will still answer the question since it was directed at me (but dudewithasock did a pretty good job)
Let me ask you,,
1) If someone were to kidnap your mother, sister, or brother/ torture and kill them,, Just for kicks ,, Would it be GOOD OR EVIL??

2) What would be a just punishment in your eyes??

1) If you have been following my reasoning there is no good or evil but there is still right and wrong depending on the situation at the time. I can not say that the person doing the kidnapping torturing and killing is evil but I cannot think of a situation where this would be acceptable to my moral code. I would say that to me (and I believe the vast majority of peoples) the actions described above are morally wrong but that does not make it EVIL.

2) Punishment is an interesting thing. What is the purpose of punishment? what punishment is just?

Is punishment to hurt someone who has caused a hurt or is punishment a way to make those who are hurt feel better?

In my opinion both of those philosophies are flawed because they are just causing misery for the sake of misery. If the person is mentally ill and getting psychiatric help would actually help them then they would should have psychiatric help.

Punishment for the sake of punishment does not work but punishment for prevention can work. An example of punishment for prevention: There is a dog at the gas station just 7 km north of where I live in the summer that likes to jump on people. The first time it jumped on me I swatted his paws off me, the second time I gave him a smack up side the head, he does not jump up on me anymore.

a punishment is just if it causes less suffering than it prevents.




a little off topic but for all those who are confused about rastafarianism, it is a type of christianity

[monkeyman]

Divebomber, we're going to have to agree to disagree. I don't really follow a religion, but a God that haphazardly creates to destroy directly conflicts with my definition of a loving God. You are a well-versed and well-spoken Christian, but there is no way what you are saying will ever make sense to me.

[Divebomber]

Divebomber, we're going to have to agree to disagree. I don't really follow a religion, but a God that haphazardly creates to destroy directly conflicts with my definition of a loving God. You are a well-versed and well-spoken Christian, but there is no way what you are saying will ever make sense to me.

Well, Ok. I'm glad that we did come to some sort-of agreement even if you don't believe in Christ.

[lostconch]

wow a lot has happened on this thread since i was last in civilization. I realize that the conversation has evolved past this quite a bit but I will still answer the question since it was directed at me (but dudewithasock did a pretty good job)


1) If you have been following my reasoning there is no good or evil but there is still right and wrong depending on the situation at the time. I can not say that the person doing the kidnapping torturing and killing is evil but I cannot think of a situation where this would be acceptable to my moral code. I would say that to me (and I believe the vast majority of peoples) the actions described above are morally wrong but that does not make it EVIL.

2) Punishment is an interesting thing. What is the purpose of punishment? what punishment is just?

Is punishment to hurt someone who has caused a hurt or is punishment a way to make those who are hurt feel better?

In my opinion both of those philosophies are flawed because they are just causing misery for the sake of misery. If the person is mentally ill and getting psychiatric help would actually help them then they would should have psychiatric help.

Punishment for the sake of punishment does not work but punishment for prevention can work. An example of punishment for prevention: There is a dog at the gas station just 7 km north of where I live in the summer that likes to jump on people. The first time it jumped on me I swatted his paws off me, the second time I gave him a smack up side the head, he does not jump up on me anymore.

a punishment is just if it causes less suffering than it prevents.




a little off topic but for all those who are confused about rastafarianism, it is a type of christianity

I guess I was going for the "Right and Wrong" issue not so much the good or evil but the idea is similar I would say.. And my only point is you know it is wrong (morally or any other type of wrong you care to think of).. All wrong is morally wrong

Purpose of punishment is justice, consequence,, The family that loses their member due to the brutal rape and killing I mentioned will never feel better no matter what.. Only the ability to truly forgive from their very soul can allow that to happen to a certain degree.. But on the otherside society can't just let it go unchecked for all the obvious reasons

Your dog example is great,, Here is the twist though,, he still desires to jump on you though he won't do it,, God judges us to the level of our thoughts not just our actions,, the standard is perfection which can't be attained,, "The wages of sin is death" is simply a truth ( a universal law),, Which is the reason for a SAVIOR, because none are worthy of saving

[lostconch]

Divebomber, we're going to have to agree to disagree. I don't really follow a religion, but a God that haphazardly creates to destroy directly conflicts with my definition of a loving God. You are a well-versed and well-spoken Christian, but there is no way what you are saying will ever make sense to me.

How about this try,, If the Bible is correct and God knew you before the foundations of the world were layed,, YOU WERE before space,time, matter, existed,, God is obviously outside of those things if he created them,, We are created in his image,, The spirit world created the physical world, I propose that makes Gods reality more real than ours,, I see it very much like the theory's on existence of other dimensions,, We exist in the 3rd dimension and have no problem in our concepts of the 1st and the 2nd,, Thats because our laws in the 3rd supercede those of the 1st and the 2nd,, We would probably seem like angels to beings in the 2nd dimension if they existed,, Our own brainiacs are theorizing based on the mathmatics of many more dimensions,, My point is those will supercede our own yet they will be just as true,, Once we are privy to the info of the final dimension our mouths will be shut, our arrogance will be silenced,,

There simply comes a point in the search where it is obvious that GOD IS.. The Bible tells us to "Repent and Trust" in the salvation that he provided through the ultimate sacrifice (himself)..

People can look at something like StoneHenge or a group of rocks positioned so that they spell something or form a design or clay pot or an indian arrowhead.. Immediately they know it was made by someone.. Then they look at the Creation, so much more complex in its workings, witness what boils down to daily miracles of plants growing,, life being,, universe functioning and pass it off to randomness,, The fact that it is so complex and so miraculous is testament to the fact that it was made by someone,, much more obvious than Stonehenge or clay pots

That was enough for me,, It seems obvious to me that you truly think on these matters,, You can't get over the hump of why create to destroy,, And that Gods justice doesn't fit yours,, Once you realize "He Is" it won't really matter much to you what you think,, All that really matters is what God thinks,

Great points and questions can be thrown around on these forums.. and it is very entertaining and at times educational.. The reality is both sides of these debates are in an endless loop of circular reasoning,, choose your loop,, One loop is based in man's arrogance and changing ideas the other is based in an unchanging creator, Takes way too much faith to go with man

[CKCrowe]

How about this try,, If the Bible is correct and God knew you before the foundations of the world were layed,, YOU WERE before space,time, matter, existed,, God is obviously outside of those things if he created them,, We are created in his image,, The spirit world created the physical world, I propose that makes Gods reality more real than ours,, I see it very much like the theory's on existence of other dimensions,, We exist in the 3rd dimension and have no problem in our concepts of the 1st and the 2nd,, Thats because our laws in the 3rd supercede those of the 1st and the 2nd,, We would probably seem like angels to beings in the 2nd dimension if they existed,, Our own brainiacs are theorizing based on the mathmatics of many more dimensions,, My point is those will supercede our own yet they will be just as true,, Once we are privy to the info of the final dimension our mouths will be shut, our arrogance will be silenced,,

There simply comes a point in the search where it is obvious that GOD IS.. The Bible tells us to "Repent and Trust" in the salvation that he provided through the ultimate sacrifice (himself)..

People can look at something like StoneHenge or a group of rocks positioned so that they spell something or form a design or clay pot or an indian arrowhead.. Immediately they know it was made by someone.. Then they look at the Creation, so much more complex in its workings, witness what boils down to daily miracles of plants growing,, life being,, universe functioning and pass it off to randomness,, The fact that it is so complex and so miraculous is testament to the fact that it was made by someone,, much more obvious than Stonehenge or clay pots

That was enough for me,, It seems obvious to me that you truly think on these matters,, You can't get over the hump of why create to destroy,, And that Gods justice doesn't fit yours,, Once you realize "He Is" it won't really matter much to you what you think,, All that really matters is what God thinks,

Great points and questions can be thrown around on these forums.. and it is very entertaining and at times educational.. The reality is both sides of these debates are in an endless loop of circular reasoning,, choose your loop,, One loop is based in man's arrogance and changing ideas the other is based in an unchanging creator, Takes way too much faith to go with man
Bravo, nice explaining.

[johnfoss]

The fact that it is so complex and so miraculous is testament to the fact that it was made by someone,, much more obvious than Stonehenge or clay potsMore obvious to some, but less obvious to others. Testament to some, one possible theory to others. The complexity of the world, and what little we know of it, makes it look to me like it was not planned or created, but that it grew and developed. A lot of the physical and natural sciences back this up, though imperfectly.

You can't get over the hump of why create to destroy,, And that Gods justice doesn't fit yours,,
For me, that aspect is much easier to accept. If we are created in God's image why can't God do random and destructive things? People sure do.

Great points and questions can be thrown around on these forums.. and it is very entertaining and at times educational.Very much so. I appreciate all the people who can "play" in these discussions without losing their heads.

One loop is based in man's arrogance and changing ideas the other is based in an unchanging creator, Takes way too much faith to go with manHmmm. Hast I more faith than thou? Nah, that doesn't seem right to me at all. I believe what I see and perceive, plus what I read and/or learn from people smarter than me (especially when there is a consensus and no political agenda). I think of this as understanding rather than faith. Understanding, as much as I can, of a world that is imperfectly understood by us humans. Your faith is much more the real thing; believing in stuff you can't prove, yet that you are firmly committed to. That's faith.

[monkeyman]

How about this try,, If the Bible is correct and God knew you before the foundations of the world were layed,, YOU WERE before space,time, matter, existed,, God is obviously outside of those things if he created them,,
For starters, IF. So if I was before space/time/matter, what does that say for free will?

He are created in our image,, The physical world created the spiritual world, I propose that makes our reality more real than His,, I see it very much like the theory's on existence of other dimensions,, We exist in the 3rd dimension and have no problem in our concepts of the 1st and the 2nd,, Thats because our laws in the 3rd supercede those of the 1st and the 2nd,, We would probably seem like angels to beings in the 2nd dimension if they existed,, Our own brainiacs are theorizing based on the mathmatics of many more dimensions,, My point is those will supercede our own yet they will be just as true,,
Not a very strong point, if I can just switch the words and make it work for my side.
There simply comes a point in the search where it is obvious that GOD IS... ...Jehovah? Allah? Krishna?

The Bible tells us to "Repent and Trust" in the salvation that he provided through the ultimate sacrifice (himself)..
And the Qu'ran tells us something else. Your point?


Then they look at the Creation, so much more complex in its workings, witness what boils down to daily miracles of plants growing,, life being,, universe functioning and pass it off to randomness,, The fact that it is so complex and so miraculous is testament to the fact that it was made by someone,, much more obvious than Stonehenge or clay pots
And, simply because your Bible says so, it's automatically the Christian God?

That was enough for me,, It seems obvious to me that you truly think on these matters
I believe in some sort of creator too, for the same reasons as you. As I've said before, I have no idea what he's like, but I very much doubt that he is the Christian God as portrayed in the Bible.

All that really matters is what God thinks
And I'm the arrogant one, yes.

The reality is both sides of these debates are in an endless loop of circular reasoning
Not quite. Christians tend to use God's word to prove God. Atheists don't use a book which says that God doesn't exist to disprove the existence of God. There is bias in both arguments, yes...it's hard to find an argument without bias in any debate. But only one side tends to rely on circular reasoning.

One loop is based in man's arrogance and changing ideas the other is based in an unchanging creator, Takes way too much faith to go with man
Ahem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem).

[BillyTheMountain]

I believe what I see and perceive, plus what I read and/or learn from people smarter than me (especially when there is a consensus and no political agenda).

You believe what you read and/or learn from people smarter than me (especially when there is no political agenda)?!

no political agenda?! no political agenda?! no political agenda?! no political agenda?!

When is there no political agenda?!

Even the now defunct string theory has anti-science proponents among physics researchers whose continued career/grant money depends on it staying trendy.

I call them anti-science because they continue to promote a defunct theory.

Ask Gilby: You can almost always find a political agenda.

[James_Potter]

I believe in some sort of creator too, for the same reasons as you. As I've said before, I have no idea what he's like, but I very much doubt that he is the Christian God as portrayed in the Bible.
OR she!

[BillyTheMountain]

You believe what you read and/or learn from people smarter than me (especially when there is no political agenda)?!

no political agenda?! no political agenda?! no political agenda?! no political agenda?!

When is there no political agenda?!

Even the now defunct string theory has anti-science proponents among physics researchers whose continued career/grant money depends on it staying trendy.

I call them anti-science because they continue to promote a defunct theory.

Ask Gilby: You can almost always find a political agenda.

Billy,

I beg to differ with you on this one, but I must side with John on this one.

A good example is the liberals and the atheists, who have no political agenda, vs. the right wing and the fundamentalists, who do have a political agenda.

[monkeyman]

Billy, you're insane.

OR she!

Yes, perdón.

[wobbling bear]

We are created in his image,,
I think it is the other way round: we created Gods in our image.

[MrBoogiejuice]

Like Ganesh.

[johnfoss]

no political agenda?! no political agenda?! no political agenda?! no political agenda?! I don't know what it is about my posts that gets Billy into broken-record mode. I was trying to explain my thought processes without going onto a huge, detailed, Billy-friendly tangent. Everyone else seems to have gotten it.

A good example is the liberals and the atheists, who have no political agenda, vs. the right wing and the fundamentalists, who do have a political agenda.Usually if there is a political agenda on one side, there is close to an equal and opposite political agenda on the other side. You contradict yourself.

I think it is the other way round: we created Gods in our image.Of course we did. But I was talking to lostconch, in the framework of *his* beliefs. We are supposed to believe that the Christian God looks like "us." Plus he's usually old and white, unless he's being played by Morgan Freeman.

[James_Potter]

Like Ganesh.
Or Vishnu!

[MrBoogiejuice]

Or Vishnu!

Bless you.

[MuniAddict]

Even the now defunct string theory has anti-science proponents among physics researchers whose continued career/grant money depends on it staying trendy. Haha same goes for the "global warming" sham!

[BillyTheMountain]

Of course we did. But I was talking to lostconch, in the framework of *his* beliefs. We are supposed to believe that the Christian God looks like "us." Plus he's usually old and white, unless he's being played by Morgan Freeman.

The problem with you Atheists is you won't put your money where your mouth is.

China, an Atheist government, currently arrests people when they find them practicing any religion other than Atheism.

But it appears that Christians in "home churches" are breaking the law in record numbers, and within 15 years we'll have a VERY LARGE nation of Christians, come to wipe out the Atheists.

You've got to act now. Send money, and ask your representatives to send troops to China to help them enforce their national religion of Atheism.

Soon it may be too late.

[JJuggle]

Hey Billy, I've taken up a new hobby. Not collecting stamps. I'm now an atheist aphilatelist.

I really love my new hobby and I'm able to be active with it 24 hours a day. Literally, even when I'm sleeping. Not collecting stamps rocks!

[BillyTheMountain]

Hey Billy, I've taken up a new hobby. Not collecting stamps. I'm now an atheist aphilatelist.

I really love my new hobby and I'm able to be active with it 24 hours a day. Literally, even when I'm sleeping. Not collecting stamps rocks!

Atheists are used to being made fun of by people like you.

[BillyTheMountain]

Atheists are used to being made fun of by people like you.

It's sad that Raphael cannot live up to the ideals of True Atheists, and must make fun of those who do.

It's so easy to live low and take pot shots at those on high.

[forrestunifreak]

Gah, WHY did I have to click on this thread again???


Oh well. I see BIlly has finally gone off the deep end. (again?)

[JJuggle]

It's sad that Raphael cannot live up to the ideals of True Atheists, and must make fun of those who do.

It's so easy to live low and take pot shots at those on high.

It's always a relief to know that when anything close to the truth eludes you Billy, you just make stuff up.

[BillyTheMountain]

It's always a relief to know that when anything close to the truth eludes you Billy, you just make stuff up.

Though you try to deny it, you words will always stand as testament to your attitude toward True Atheists:

Hey Billy, I've taken up a new hobby. Not collecting stamps. I'm now an atheist aphilatelist.

I really love my new hobby and I'm able to be active with it 24 hours a day. Literally, even when I'm sleeping. Not collecting stamps rocks!.

[JJuggle]

Though you try to deny it, you words will always stand as testament to your attitude toward True Atheists:

Though you try to insist on it, my words mean nothing that you suggest.

[lostconch]

Of course we did. But I was talking to lostconch, in the framework of *his* beliefs. We are supposed to believe that the Christian God looks like "us." Plus he's usually old and white, unless he's being played by Morgan Freeman.

John,, I guess I'm not being clear on this,, Something I assume is obvious may not be obvious to others,,This has nothing to do with looks,, We are in some manner like Him, I would not think looks is the image since the Bible says God is spirit,, In that I would say we are created as spirit,, we are created in his image not vice versa

Monkeyman,, I've been off of the thread for a couple days and I don't know what happenned to the last thread I put out there to you,(computers and I aren't on very friendly terms) don't have time at the moment to rethink it, Time to go and pull a 44yr old muscle in a relive my youth softball game,,Just wanted you to know I'll try again soon

[James_Potter]

John,, I guess I'm not being clear on this,, Something I assume is obvious may not be obvious to others,,This has nothing to do with looks,, We are in some manner like Him, I would not think looks is the image since the Bible says God is spirit,, In that I would say we are created as spirit,, we are created in his image not vice versa
Isn't God only spirit in the Holy Ghost? What about the Father and the Son?
What does the Father look like?
Also, are animal spirits "saved" just like human spirits are?

[BillyTheMountain]

Usually if there is a political agenda on one side, there is close to an equal and opposite political agenda on the other side. You contradict yourself.

John,

Perhaps you're still recovering from your traumatic discovery that Mozart was really a woman, and that laptops cause cancer. If so, it's perfectly excusable, and I won't hold you to the above quote.

But you seem to be saying here that if it's Christian creationists on one side, it Atheist theology on the other side.

I'm kind of surprised to hear you say that. Really surprised.

[lostconch]

For starters, IF. So if I was before space/time/matter, what does that say for free will?

** don't see how free will comes into play here,, only thought is that there is more to the scenario than meets our extremely limited sight**

Not a very strong point, if I can just switch the words and make it work for my side.
** Sorry I don't get this one,, if you switch the words of anything you change the intended meaning**
...Jehovah? Allah? Krishna?


And the Qu'ran tells us something else. Your point?
** Yes it does,, it tells us Jesus was a great prophet and much of it holds to the laws of Moses and Jewish principles and then adds it's own stuff,, They think Jesus is a great prophet up until he starts claiming who he is and why he is here,, Mohamed studied with Rabis but was not allowed to become one,, thus your beginnings of Islam..**


And, simply because your Bible says so, it's automatically the Christian God?
**And the Jewish God and in a stretched way the Islam God**

I believe in some sort of creator too, for the same reasons as you. As I've said before, I have no idea what he's like, but I very much doubt that he is the Christian God as portrayed in the Bible.
** This I can understand,, Creator is obvious,, Now the search of who and what he is like is the game,, I happen to think the old testament, the new testament and the quran are great places to look,, Really look at all 3 and I think you'll find Him in the pages of the Bible**

And I'm the arrogant one, yes.
** are you suggesting that if there is a Creator of all,, This being woud be arrogant because he knows everything and what he says goes?? that seems to make my point of human arrogance**

Not quite. Christians tend to use God's word to prove God. Atheists don't use a book which says that God doesn't exist to disprove the existence of God. There is bias in both arguments, yes...it's hard to find an argument without bias in any debate. But only one side tends to rely on circular reasoning.
** I would disagree,, they use THEORETICAL SCIENCE in every conceivable manner,, I'm really not so sure anyone with any intellectual honesty can say they are an atheist,, The best they can hope for is agnostic,, Everyone would have to concede that we hardly know anything about everything and in that huge percentage of stuff we don't know is the possibility of the facts they don't know,, so the strongest position they could take is to say " I'm not sure"

Ahem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem).

I just figure out how I messed this up last time,, so I'm writing this sentence so it will accept how I wrote the other stuff in above

[lostconch]

Isn't God only spirit in the Holy Ghost? What about the Father and the Son?
What does the Father look like?
Also, are animal spirits "saved" just like human spirits are?

Actually if you had to take an educated guess at the Holy Ghost form of God in the trinity,, I would say that they are not the same form,, God dwelt within the Holy of Holy's in the Jewish temple and it seems to insinuate that it is not the Holy Spirit.. Reality is there are plenty of books written on the subject of the trinity and each one could convince a reader of opposite ideas in this area.. My view is it doesn't matter, it merely is, trying to solve this mystery completely is futile..

Doesn' matter what the Father looks like,, or if physical looks really exist beyond our current limited view..

Not sure about the animal thing,, I have read that animals are still supposed to be here once the Creation comes back under the rule of the Creator

[monkeyman]

I just figure out how I messed this up last time,, so I'm writing this sentence so it will accept how I wrote the other stuff in above

Yeah that makes it hard to reply. Thanks. :p

** don't see how free will comes into play here,, only thought is that there is more to the scenario than meets our extremely limited sight**
If we existed before time did, then our entire existence "was" before time. That basically nullifies free will if all of our actions already were in place before God even created the universe.

** Sorry I don't get this one,, if you switch the words of anything you change the intended meaning**
Ok...here's what you said: We are created in his image,, The spirit world created the physical world, I propose that makes Gods reality more real than ours,, I see it very much like the theory's on existence of other dimensions,, We exist in the 3rd dimension and have no problem in our concepts of the 1st and the 2nd,, Thats because our laws in the 3rd supercede those of the 1st and the 2nd,, We would probably seem like angels to beings in the 2nd dimension if they existed,, Our own brainiacs are theorizing based on the mathmatics of many more dimensions,, My point is those will supercede our own yet they will be just as true,,


Then I thought "Hey, if I change some words around, then the exact same concept applies to my argument". So I did. And I got this: He is created in our image,, The physical world created the spiritual world, I propose that makes our reality more real than His,, I see it very much like the theory's on existence of other dimensions,, We exist in the 3rd dimension and have no problem in our concepts of the 1st and the 2nd,, Thats because our laws in the 3rd supercede those of the 1st and the 2nd,, We would probably seem like angels to beings in the 2nd dimension if they existed,, Our own brainiacs are theorizing based on the mathmatics of many more dimensions,, My point is those will supercede our own yet they will be just as true,,


My point? I switched the subjects and the direct objects, and it still made sense...therefore, it's not that compelling of an argument.


** Yes it does,, it tells us Jesus was a great prophet and much of it holds to the laws of Moses and Jewish principles and then adds it's own stuff,, They think Jesus is a great prophet up until he starts claiming who he is and why he is here,, Mohamed studied with Rabis but was not allowed to become one,, thus your beginnings of Islam..**
You avoided my question. Why should we believe the Bible over the Qu'ran?


** This I can understand,, Creator is obvious,, Now the search of who and what he is like is the game,, I happen to think the old testament, the new testament and the quran are great places to look,, Really look at all 3 and I think you'll find Him in the pages of the Bible**
There are other religious books, and more importantly, other religions. My main question to you is why the Christian religion is the "right" one.


** are you suggesting that if there is a Creator of all,, This being woud be arrogant because he knows everything and what he says goes?? that seems to make my point of human arrogance**
I was actually saying that that was an arrogant statement from you...if you can't compellingly convince me of God's omniscience and divine authority, you can't tell me that my opinion matters naught.


** I would disagree,, they use THEORETICAL SCIENCE in every conceivable manner,,
This took longer than I thought it would to pop up. Proponents of organized religion seem to love to bring up the fact that science is based on silly little "theories". Scientific theories are not made up by monkeys with typewriters. They are based off of many (many) experiments, and findings of many (many) scientists. Gravity is a theory, because as of now, we cannot prove it. Will this stop you from jumping off of your roof?

I'm really not so sure anyone with any intellectual honesty can say they are an atheist,,
And I'm really not so sure anyone with any intellectual honesty could say something such as that. You're well-versed, lostconch, but that doesn't mean you should go about making blanket statements like that. There are plenty of intellectually dishonest people on both sides of the argument. There's quite a few people on the forums who are smarter (and more importantly, wiser) than me that are all devout atheists (pardon the bad word choice).

[BillyTheMountain]

GRAMMY NOMINEE JOAN OSBORNE "RELISHES" CONTROVERSY

In her album "Relish," Grammy Nominee Joan Osborne has released two songs, both of which use Catholic themes in a manner that is disturbing. Though Osborne did not win a Grammy, she was nominated in five categories for her work.

Newsweek described Osborne's work as "an enticing marriage of the sexual and the spiritual," while Entertainment Weekly praises her song One of Us for being "spiritual and sacrilegious--a songwriting feat." One of Us, which was also nominated as "Song of the Year," contains the following lyrics:

"What if God was one of us, just like a slob like one of us. Just like a stranger, on a bus, trying to make his way home. If God had a face what would he look like? And would you want to see if seeing it meant that you had to believe in things like heaven and Jesus and the saints and all the prophets?" This line is followed by the refrain, "yeah, yeah, yeah" and closes with lines about God riding on a bus all alone, going up to Heaven all alone, "nobody calling on the phone, `cept maybe the Pope in Rome." In the video for this song, a man dressed as the Pope is shown on the phone while at the beach and an "angel" is shown skating on a boardwalk.

In her other controversial song, St. Teresa, Osborne blends commentary on St. Teresa of Avila with a tale of a drug abusing prostitute. "Oooh, St. Teresa higher than the moon...every stone a story like a rosary," is one of the lyrics.

The Catholic League announced its objections as follows:

"It is no wonder that Joan Osborne instructs her fans to donate their time and money to Planned Parenthood. It is of a piece with her politics and her prejudices. Her songs and videos offer a curious mix of both, the effect of which is to dance awfully close to the line of Catholic baiting. If even her admirers see something of the sacrilegious in her work, it is hard to maintain that Osborne doesn't have an agenda. It is our hope that she doesn't let her sentiments regarding Catholicism get in the way of whatever artistic abilities she has."

The media reaction to the league's concerns was substantial. Both Dr. Donohue and executive assistant Susan Fani were interviewed by several newspapers, radio and television shows. The league is delighted that Osborne failed to win an award, but nonetheless pledges to track her work in the future.

[Goats_On_Unicycles]

Joan is my freaking hero, man.
I <3 her!!

[lostconch]

Yeah that makes it hard to reply. Thanks. :p


If we existed before time did, then our entire existence "was" before time. That basically nullifies free will if all of our actions already were in place before God even created the universe.

My point? I switched the subjects and the direct objects, and it still made sense...therefore, it's not that compelling of an argument.

You avoided my question. Why should we believe the Bible over the Qu'ran?

There are other religious books, and more importantly, other religions. My main question to you is why the Christian religion is the "right" one.

I was actually saying that that was an arrogant statement from you...if you can't compellingly convince me of God's omniscience and divine authority, you can't tell me that my opinion matters naught.

This took longer than I thought it would to pop up. Proponents of organized religion seem to love to bring up the fact that science is based on silly little "theories". Scientific theories are not made up by monkeys with typewriters. They are based off of many (many) experiments, and findings of many (many) scientists. Gravity is a theory, because as of now, we cannot prove it. Will this stop you from jumping off of your roof?

And I'm really not so sure anyone with any intellectual honesty could say something such as that. You're well-versed, lostconch, but that doesn't mean you should go about making blanket statements like that. There are plenty of intellectually dishonest people on both sides of the argument. There's quite a few people on the forums who are smarter (and more importantly, wiser) than me that are all devout atheists (pardon the bad word choice).

Monkeyman,, Sorry has taken so long to get back in,, home computer down and time at the firehouse is always unpredictable,,

**My only point about existing before all of this is that we as men have such limited view and perspective on the entire picture,, we know nothing in our current state,, I am fully aware that this is a very convenient perspective to take but I believe with all that I am that it is the truth,, I guess I don't quite see how God knowing what is going to happen changes my free will in the issue

** Jane walked up the hill to fetch a pail of water for Bill,, Dick walked up the hill to fetch a pail of water for Jane,, Means something completely different

** As far as why the Bible?? I believe it is reliable in its depiction of historical events and its prophecy,, no other religous book has this type of detail,, The ties between it's stories and how they depict spiritual realities and correspond with future realities paint a picture of a very deep book,, One you can study for a life time and not ever grasp all the intricacies,, I have found that Christianity is the path because repenting and trusting in The Christ solves the issue of sin (no other religion solves this problem),,

** I think I can tell you that your opinion, my opinion, everyones opinion matters naught,, Because IF IF IF there is a God and he provided himself as a sacrifice to save us from Death,, and that our walking through that door of his sacrifice is how a man dies to himself but gains life everlasting then that is the only truth that matters,, opinions mean nothing

** actually gravity is very provable and testable just another law in our created universe,, which probably has many more laws than we are remotely aware of,, by the way I am no proponent if organized religion,,

**I think my athiest statement is very plausible,, lets say you are an athiest (one who denies the existence of God) and you believe you know a whopping 5% of everything there is to possibly know in the universe,, That leaves 95% you don't know,, You would then have to admit that in that 95% could possibly be some knowledge that would change your belief,, that possibilty makes you an agnostic,,

Gotta tell you if you are looking for the ultimate proof or intellectual bullet that will prove God exists you won't find it,, If looking at His Creation (even though it is currently messed up) doesn't give you enough proof nothing will,, You can read everything that scientists say on why the earth is young/old,, etc,, It is supernatural and requires some degree of faith which ever side you go with

[James_Potter]

** As far as why the Bible?? I believe it is reliable in its depiction of historical events and its prophecy,, no other religous book has this type of detail,, The ties between it's stories and how they depict spiritual realities and correspond with future realities paint a picture of a very deep book,, One you can study for a life time and not ever grasp all the intricacies,, I have found that Christianity is the path because repenting and trusting in The Christ solves the issue of sin (no other religion solves this problem),,
As far as the stories and historical context, the Qur'an and the Bible have very nearly the same exact stories up to Jesus...God created the world in seven days, Adam first then Eve came from a rib, Cain murdered Abel, Noah built an ark, Moses parted the Red Sea, all a part of Islam. They believe the same things happened regarding Jesus, that is, he was born of a virgin, he performed miracles, they just don't believe he was crucified, per se.
But anyway, Christianity and Islam differ very slightly, only the rituals and the beliefs about Jesus are at all different.

** actually gravity is very provable and testable just another law in our created universe,, which probably has many more laws than we are remotely aware of,, by the way I am no proponent if organized religion,,
Nah man, gravity is not provable. How do you know it's gravity that makes you stay on the Earth, and not invisible fairies holding you down? Or to keep it in context, angels...there's nothing to prove it's one or the other. That is why gravity is nothing more than a theory.

[monkeyman]

** Jane walked up the hill to fetch a pail of water for Bill,, Dick walked up the hill to fetch a pail of water for Jane,, Means something completely different
You can't compare arguments and narratives. Narratives are based around characters, while arguments rely on logical and/or emotional principles. That said, an argument is ineffective if you can apply the same principles to the opposing side.


** actually gravity is very provable and testable just another law in our created universe,, which probably has many more laws than we are remotely aware of,, by the way I am no proponent if organized religion,,
As Mikael pointed out already, not quite.



Lostconch, we're not going to reach an understanding. Both of us have thought out our beliefs pretty thoroughly, and no amount of reasoning or pleading will change them. It's been good discussing it with you, though. You state your side much better than other people I've argued with.

[lostconch]

As far as the stories and historical context, the Qur'an and the Bible have very nearly the same exact stories up to Jesus...God created the world in seven days, Adam first then Eve came from a rib, Cain murdered Abel, Noah built an ark, Moses parted the Red Sea, all a part of Islam. They believe the same things happened regarding Jesus, that is, he was born of a virgin, he performed miracles, they just don't believe he was crucified, per se.
But anyway, Christianity and Islam differ very slightly, only the rituals and the beliefs about Jesus are at all different.


Nah man, gravity is not provable. How do you know it's gravity that makes you stay on the Earth, and not invisible fairies holding you down? Or to keep it in context, angels...there's nothing to prove it's one or the other. That is why gravity is nothing more than a theory.

That is true from what I know about Islam,, If they believed Jesus was God then it would be Christianity,, Just like Judism who are still waiting for the messiah,, Islam is an off shoot of Judism,, Mohamed was unable to become a Rabi so started Islam,, Old testament warns Abraham (father of the Jews) and (father of the Arab)- one son of his wife Sarah and one son of her maid servant - of how the offspring of his 2 sons will always be in conflict

OK call it an unknown force or fairies but it is provable because you can throw something up and will come down,, and testable cause you can try it with all kinds of items and it works everytime,, functioning law doesn't matter what you call it.. Only that you need to obey it

[Ducttape]

I spelt Lutheran wrong. Srry.:eek:
you also spelt Mormon wrong.... it would have been easier for you to group Mormon un der christianity because contrary to popular belief Momons are christian..... I'm technically a mormon but only really because my parents are and I'm not 18 yet..... oh and by the way the Mormon population is starting to now go by the actual name of the religion(well the church's actual name) The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints..... just thought I'd give people a heads up in case the news does one of their funny things where they say "the two organizations that responded fastest to the (insert natural disaster here) were The Mormons and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" like they did when we sent down relief teams after hurricane Katrina.....

Peace out!

[BillyTheMountain]

Joan is my freaking hero, man.
I <3 her!!

Mine too!

when you hear her sing (like I just did, live): God is great! God is so very GOOD, I tend to think she is TRUE and the Catholic League worships a false GOD.

When you see her crying real tears after singing War (What is it good for?), you know for sure.

[monkeyman]

ycontrary to popular belief Momons are christian

Yeah, so is the KKK.

[spazdude222]

Ok, so I've been doing a lot of research into mormonism. I've visted mormon.org as well as lsd.org and I ask questions about their beliefs, but they keep dodging the questions, steering me right back to the webpage that got me thinking in the first place...can anyone help me?

[Ducttape]

what kinds of questions do you have... I'm not a devoute mormon but that doesn't mean I can't spit back the information they've been feeding me for the last 16 years....

[Ducttape]

Yeah, so is the KKK.
what kind of reference are you making there? are you saying mormon's are like the KKK?

[muzzle]

Other: Jedi

[monkeyman]

what kind of reference are you making there? are you saying mormon's are like the KKK?

Oh not at all....the KKK is full of sick, twisted, assholes...but they still claim to be a Christian organization. Claiming to be Christian does not make you one...Mormonism is too radically different from Christianity to be Christianity. That doesn't make it bad, any more than it makes Islam bad. It's just not Christianity.

[Ducttape]

Oh not at all....the KKK is full of sick, twisted, assholes...but they still claim to be a Christian organization. Claiming to be Christian does not make you one...Mormonism is too radically different from Christianity to be Christianity. That doesn't make it bad, any more than it makes Islam bad. It's just not Christianity.
well isn't the basis of christianity the belief in christ? because if that's the basis of christianity then Mormons ARE christian, because we believe in christ you don't have to conform to a specific set of requirements other than the beilef in christ and the bible (I think) to be considered Christian and Mormons believe in christ and the bible and are therefore christian.... sorry if this sounds abit rude but I', just spitting back arguments I've been taught....

[James_Potter]

Actually he makes an interesting point, Mormonism is about as close to generic Christianity as Islam is, and I've always said Islam and Christianity are practically the same....

[dudewithasock]

In that regard, the KKK are Christians too, as sick as it sounds to say that. All of these different Christian subgroups read and follow the same bible and believe in the same Christ, they just have different interpretations of that document.

[monkeyman]

All of these different Christian subgroups read and follow the same bible and believe in the same Christ, they just have different interpretations of that document.

Mormonism goes a step farther and adds a completely new book to the Bible.

[James_Potter]

So do Catholics.

[monkeyman]

So do Catholics.

They were the first church...if anything, Protestantism takes out books from the original.

[Ducttape]

Mormonism goes a step farther and adds a completely new book to the Bible.
actually the book of mormon is a seperate book, it's a seperate testament. The book of mormon is, basically the same time period as the bible but it's in the america's there were prophets and everything over in the america's as well as in Jerusalem....

It's kind of weird to explain and probably sounds really wrong and out there to you but it's something that's easier to understand if you read the book and seriously just consider it. It's pretty hard to explain when I've just grown up in it and I've never really had to think about it, it's just what I've always known....

[lostconch]

They were the first church...if anything, Protestantism takes out books from the original.

Most folks say Catholic and mean Roman Catholic,, Roman Catholicism is an offshoot from Orthodox Catholicism which is still around.. I think it is greek Orthodox,, Obviously no Pope and such

Protestants are an off shoot of Roman Catholic,, Luther ( a Catholic monk of some sort ) knew his Bible and wrote an official protest against much of what the Roman Catholic church was doing and becoming,, This protest was physically posted on the doors of churches,, thus the name Protestants..

The books that are in the Catholic Bible that aren't in the Protestant bible were added at later dates as far as I know,,

The history of Denominations and offshoots seems very obvious to me,, Time breeds corruption and a movement away from purpose,, the goats infiltrate and have more power in the whatever church then the lambs,, someone realizes the obvious and gets back to a more pure faith and the cycle starts all over again

[Ducttape]

Time breeds corruption and a movement away from purpose,, the goats infiltrate and have more power in the whatever church then the lambs,, someone realizes the obvious and gets back to a more pure faith and the cycle starts all over again
which is why I tend to stray away from religion.....

[Goats_On_Unicycles]

the goats infiltrate and have more power in the whatever church then the lambs
:cool:

[monkeyman]

which is why I tend to stray away from religion.....

I'm pretty sure lostconch has said that he's no supporter of organized religion (I apologize if I'm misquoting you, lostconch). It's pretty hard to corrupt an idea, though, so that's a pretty flawed reason for staying away from religion.

[Ducttape]

I'm pretty sure lostconch has said that he's no supporter of organized religion (I apologize if I'm misquoting you, lostconch). It's pretty hard to corrupt an idea, though, so that's a pretty flawed reason for staying away from religion.
Ehh, I just tend to stay away from it because most of the organizations are screwed up so I tend to stray away from regions sorry if you took that wrong.....

[lostconch]

Actually he makes an interesting point, Mormonism is about as close to generic Christianity as Islam is, and I've always said Islam and Christianity are practically the same....

Christianity claims Jesus is God and that salvation is obtained as a free gift and can't be obtained through works,, Anything else no matter how similar just doesn't get it..

Islam is based on following the 5 pillars,, how well you adhere to them is how Allah decides your fate after death

Judiasm has the moral law (10 commandments) which requires an annual sacrifice on the day of atonement to cover the sins against the law of God, still waiting for the Messiah

Mormonism is pretty recent,, 1830's Joseph Smith,, North America,, claims a group of Jews in 600 BC made it to N America and the writings he translated to start the Mormon church comes from them,, Claims the One God Elohim was a man in a prior existence,, he kept the requiements of Mormonism so was exalted to god status and inherited his own universe,, god is flesh and bones yet omniscient,, so Jesus's conception is not a virgin birth,, There are an infinite number of gods with worlds of their own who were also previously men,, They believe Jesus is the son of god but not god himself,, Lucifer would also be a son of god,, Basically the same characters with a bunch of new twists,, Salvation is very works oriented with following the teachings of the church and involvement in the church,, The Bible is one of their books of scriptures assuming you are using one that has had the 600 corrections made to it by Smith,,

My experience with Mormons has shown me that they are maybe the nicest group of people walking the planet but don't let them tell you they are Christian

[Ducttape]

Mormonism is pretty recent,, 1830's Joseph Smith,, North America,, claims a group of Jews in 600 BC made it to N America and the writings he translated to start the Mormon church comes from them,, Claims the One God Elohim was a man in a prior existence,, he kept the requiements of Mormonism so was exalted to god status and inherited his own universe,, god is flesh and bones yet omniscient,, so Jesus's conception is not a virgin birth,, There are an infinite number of gods with worlds of their own who were also previously men,, They believe Jesus is the son of god but not god himself,, Lucifer would also be a son of god,, Basically the same characters with a bunch of new twists,, Salvation is very works oriented with following the teachings of the church and involvement in the church,, The Bible is one of their books of scriptures assuming you are using one that has had the 600 corrections made to it by Smith,,

My experience with Mormons has shown me that they are maybe the nicest group of people walking the planet but don't let them tell you they are Christian

I am Mormon, we Use the King James version of the bible, we beleive that the Father the Son and the holy ghost are three seperate people, but work as one, and that Jesus was the saviour he lived and died for our sins, and through repentance and by living the Law of Chastity (spelling?) and keeping the commandments of the lord we can attain eternal salvation. so how is that different that christianity other than the fact that we also use the Book of Mormon as a religious text?

[monkeyman]

how is that different that christianity other than the fact that we also use the Book of Mormon as a religious text?

Don't you also believe in a completely different heaven hierarchy? For that matter, you actually have a hierarchy.

[lostconch]

I'm pretty sure lostconch has said that he's no supporter of organized religion (I apologize if I'm misquoting you, lostconch). It's pretty hard to corrupt an idea, though, so that's a pretty flawed reason for staying away from religion.

I guess what I stay away from are the Churches that spend their money on million dollar gymnasiums and such but won't feed the beggar accross the street,, They will have a sound system that rivals Phillips Arena but won't tell the subdivision next store about Christs saving grace,, They fool the membership into thinking that being a member of this wonderful place has got them a spot on the eternal ride,,

I'm also well aware I can't use the hypocrit argument endlessly,, I'm a hypocrit to some extent and if wanted to avoid hypocrits I would have to stay at home until I die and never look in a mirror

[Ducttape]

Don't you also believe in a completely different heaven hierarchy? For that matter, you actually have a hierarchy.
yeah, but it's just depending on how well you adhere to the principals of the church but it's not like you really have to have the same I deas of heaven and hell to be christian, there is also no "hell" straight out and the equivalent of "hell" is called the "Outer Darkness" the only way ANYONE would be going there is if they did something like hitler..... so in that respect we ARE different than generic christianity but we are still christian, at least that's what they tell me...(remember I'm using all the arguments and things I've learned by going to church and youth group stuff, this is all stuff that any mormon kid can spit out without hesitation)

[lostconch]

I am Mormon, we Use the King James version of the bible, we beleive that the Father the Son and the holy ghost are three seperate people, but work as one, and that Jesus was the saviour he lived and died for our sins, and through repentance and by living the Law of Chastity (spelling?) and keeping the commandments of the lord we can attain eternal salvation. so how is that different that christianity other than the fact that we also use the Book of Mormon as a religious text?

What does "living the law of chastity mean" ??and Why does Jesus die for your sins but you have to live the law of chastity and keep the commandments,, You can't keep the commandments,, Thats the whole reason God had to be here in human form to be put to death,, Jesus had to be a virgin birth to break the line of Adam and original sin,, If god used to be a man like us this doesn't flow with biblical history and the beginnings of the universe,, What is the book of Doctrine and Covenant?? And "The Pearl of Great Price"? Sorry for all the questions,, really curious...

[Ducttape]

the Law of chastity is basically not being a slut and screwing outside of marriage, in otherwords "thou Shalt not Commit adultry" ect... Jesus died for our sins and was resurrected so that one day we can be resurrected, and just because he died for our sins doesn't mean we don't have to follow the rules, if he hadn't died we wouldn't be able to repent and therefore would never be able to return to god. One of our "13 Articles of Faith" says "we believe that men will be punished for their own sins and not for adam's transgressions" and God created the Universe and stuff before he got a body and came to earth. The Doctrine and Covenant is a book that Was put onto the backside of the book of Mormon that Joseph Smith wrote all his revelations in and he would add to it as he got more revelations.

[BillyTheMountain]

Islam is based on following the 5 pillars,, how well you adhere to them is how Allah decides your fate after death

Judiasm has the moral law (10 commandments) which requires an annual sacrifice on the day of atonement to cover the sins against the law of God, still waiting for the Messiah

Mormonism ...Claims the One God Elohim was a man in a prior existence,, he kept the requiements of Mormonism so was exalted to god status and inherited his own universe,, god is flesh and bones yet omniscient,, so Jesus's conception is not a virgin birth,, There are an infinite number of gods with worlds of their own who were also previously men,, They believe Jesus is the son of god but not god himself,,

In my estimation, religion allows for much more freedom in self definition than other areas. This is seen most in Interspiritualists, who are more than one religion, including religion which non-Interspiritualists view as in conflict with each other. Non-Interspiritualists might say "It's impossible to be Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Hindu AND Buddhist all at the same time, because the beliefs conflict." This, however, is not a problem for interspiritualists, who have distilled the religions to foundational TRUTHs where there is no conflict.

Conch, your description of Islam is fundamentalist, but mystical Muslims have a very different take on it--it's a heart path that brings one closer to GOD today, not a path to heaven via repetitive conduct. The pillars call for prayer 5 times/day, but mystics may pray constantly with every deed, word, thought.

There is "general agreement," however, that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are monotheistic religions, requiring one to believe in only ONE GOD. You describe Mormonism as polytheistic, giving traditional Christians reason to reject it as not Christian.

[BillyTheMountain]

, if he hadn't died we wouldn't be able to repent and therefore would never be able to return to god.

Sure you would. Most people of Faith in the world don't believe this. What did people do before Jesus died?

[Ducttape]

Sure you would. Most people of Faith in the world don't believe this. What did people do before Jesus died?
dunno, just spitting back what I've heard

[mcnuggets300]

Yes, but I am far from "religious." I am trying to move away from religion, as most people view it.

(why can't I learn to stay away from these threads?)

I am a follower of Jesus--of what he taught and lived. That is not what the Christian religion, by and large, is currently about.

+ respect

edit: I'm atheist, i don't believe in a higher power, but if the texts written about them (or simply using these higher powers as a, for want of a better word) role model) serve as a life guide and aid in morals and such, then carry on as you will...

i just believe in living

[BillyTheMountain]

For people in the USA, does anyone watch the Public Broadcasting System (PBS) series on Atheism, shown in NYC on Sunday evenings? It's very interesting, in depth.

Atheists would not exist if it weren't for the Faithful. Atheism is just a reaction against the Faithful, and would make no sense without the Faithful.

[JJuggle]

For people in the USA, does anyone watch the Public Broadcasting System (PBS) series on Atheism, shown in NYC on Sunday evenings?
No.

Atheists would not exist if it weren't for the Faithful. Atheism is just a reaction against the Faithful, and would make no sense without the Faithful.
Cute bit of sophistry.

[BillyTheMountain]

No.


Cute bit of sophistry.

Since in the modern definition, a sophism is a confusing or illogical argument used for deceiving someone, I would say you are the pot calling the kettle black.

Or despite your expertise in the sociology of farting, you lack expertise in the sociology of disbelief.