Separation of Church and State

[JJuggle]

My town is a major train hub for commuters to New York City. As a result the train station parking lot is quite large. The lot is, like most, a series of numbered spaces, most reserved for regulars.

There is no space 666.

I'm thinking of suing my town to force a space 666 since this number comes directly from the New Testament, the book of Revelation, and omitting it is direct government recogniton of Christianity. It is, in fact, a more egregious act even than including "one nation under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance since God here may be considered generic to any monotheistic religion. Leaving out a space 666 is a absolute acknowledgement of the Christian religion.

Do I have a case?

[dudewithasock]

Is there a reason for lack of a '666' space that's completely secular?

[monkeyman]

Are you being completely serious?

[James_Potter]

If you're not superstitious, would you sue a hotel for not including a 13th floor?

[yoopers]

I'd sue them for $666.00.

[UniBrier]

The space is there, you just can't see it because it's just below in H-E-Double Hockey sticks. It's reserved for all those people who go slow in the fast lane.


Several local churches use their parking lots as a mid-week park and ride lots. They let anybody park there. What do you think about the state utilizing church resources?

[fuolornis]

I am STRONGLY, STRONGLY, STRONGLY in favour of the separation of church and state. However, I am FAR less offended by the omission of space 666 than I am by, oh I don't know, the fact that non-christians have absolutely NO electability in the united states (particularly Muslims and atheists).

[ThisGuyIKnow]

that non-christians have absolutely NO electability in the united states (particularly Muslims and atheists).

The first Muslim was just elected to Congress back in November, in Minnesota I believe. That doesn't negate your point though.

[UniBrier]

Went to the zoo today. Andrea was driving. Guess where she parked, needless to say she doesn't drive slow in the fast lane...

[JJuggle]

Is there a reason for lack of a '666' space that's completely secular?
Can you think of one?

[JJuggle]

Are you being completely serious?
Compleatly.

[JJuggle]

If you're not superstitious, would you sue a hotel for not including a 13th floor?
Superstition, while a cousin of religion, is not the same thing. So, no, I wouldn't.

[JJuggle]

Went to the zoo today. Andrea was driving. Guess where she parked, needless to say she doesn't drive slow in the fast lane...
One of the things I really love about technology. :)

[BillyTheMountain]

Superstition, while a cousin of religion, is not the same thing. So, no, I wouldn't.

So you don't support the separation of superstition and state? I'm surprised at you!!

[monkeyman]

Compleatly.

Well, Raphael, I'm not saying I don't respect your opinion (because I do), but I can't say I agree with it. I've always disliked the "sue-happy" attitude of today's America, and I don't think something like this warrants a lawsuit.

I don't really disagree with the sentiment, just the method. I think it's a good endeavor if lawsuits are left out of it.

[JJuggle]

So you don't support the separation of superstition and state? I'm surprised at you!!
I find the idiocy of the state to be regrettable, but not necessarily unconstitutional. In any event a hotel, a private institution, has every right to leave out the 13th floor if they like.

[JJuggle]

Several local churches use their parking lots as a mid-week park and ride lots. They let anybody park there. What do you think about the state utilizing church resources?
I don't get the point here, Steve.

[johnfoss]

I've always disliked the "sue-happy" attitude of today's America, and I don't think something like this warrants a lawsuit.
I've got to go with Monkeyman on this one. If you really want to expend the time and energy to pursue this (I can think of better things to do, like raise money for charity), I'd recommend the purpose of the action is to get them to paint all the numbers *next time.* Not to spend additional funds to fix one spot, which would require repainting hundreds of others.

Do they have a 999 spot? :)

[dudewithasock]

(I can think of better things to do, like raise money for charity)

Or unicycle.

[uni57]

Do they have a 999 spot? :)You always have a way of turning the conversation upside-down.

[one wheely]

At least 1 plane i've been on, has not had a seat 13.

[Gilby]

Spot 666 is on the lower level of the parking lot, so I don't think you'd have much of a case for that.

On the other hand, if there is an unumbered employee of the month, or other reserved spot, you can get your spray paint and number it 666 for them. I'm sure they will thank you for correcting their oversight in the matter.

[UniBrier]

I don't get the point here, Steve.I assumed you were being tongue-in-cheek about someone deciding to skip 666 on State property violates the separation of Church and State.

I, tongue-in-cheek, wonder if the inverse would also be a problem: If one really believes in separation of Church and State how dare the State use a Church parking lot for their State run Park and Ride lot.

Poor jokes need explaination, therefore it was a poor joke. I'll try harder next time.

[JJuggle]

I assumed you were being tongue-in-cheek about someone deciding to skip 666 on State property violates the separation of Church and State.
Well, honestly, since I did make the whole thing up and have no idea if there is or isn't a spot 666 in the lot, it's all academic. But if spot 666 were actually skipped, then I can honestly, no tongue in cheek whatsoever, say that I believe it would be a violation of the separation of church and state. But I can just as honestly say that this particular issue would be of no real concern to me. But, furthermore, that said, if someone else did decide to sue on this I would support them inasmuch as I agree with them, but would consider that they are expending energy on a fairly pointless cause.

I, tongue-in-cheek, wonder if the inverse would also be a problem: If one really believes in separation of Church and State how dare the State use a Church parking lot for their State run Park and Ride lot.
Ok, that's what I thought you were saying but it was not specifically laid out. I'm guessing that these churches are charging for the spots and are not providing this service at the behest of the state. There are no churches near our parking lot, but lots of business provide parking to regulars and ocassional commuters for a fee.

My congregation generates half of its electricity needs through solar power - solar panels were installed last year on our roof - and as such is registered as a power company with the state utilities board. Is that a violation of church and state?

[JJuggle]

Spot 666 is on the lower level of the parking lot, so I don't think you'd have much of a case for that.
Can you provide a link?

[brendan]

before u were on about adding posts by saying +1... but uhm double/triple posting counts as well.

and it most pf ur cases the edit button was still there... lol anyways just to point it out :P

if u were being serious about suing then u suck.

if not then thats quite funny. But honestly i recon u were joking cause ur a unicyclist, so u cnat be all bad :D

[JJuggle]

so u cnat be all bad :D
I would wish that we lived in a world where I'm as bad as it gets.

[BluntRM]

Churches should pay taxes thereby legitimizing their activist role in parking administration. A hypothetical stencil and can of spray paint seem most appropriate to the discerning citizen.

...but hey that's really cool that your church sponsors it's own grid, I've pitched the idea to ciy council, but without a real plan for implementation it's unlikely.

[BillyTheMountain]

churches can lose their tax exempt status if they get political, or tell people how to vote on issues or for offices.

This won't happen if the church tells people to vote for the Bush administration or Bush policies.

[uni57]

Can you provide a link?You don't want to go there.

[ThisGuyIKnow]

churches can lose their tax exempt status if they get political, or tell people how to vote on issues or for offices.

This won't happen if the church tells people to vote for the Bush administration or Bush policies.

Yeah, it only happens if the minister/preacher/rabbi/imam/priest/leader says that Jesus/Mohammed (PBUH)/whoever preached peace and would be against the war.

[BillyTheMountain]

Just curious which other nations have separation of church and state, adn which don't.

[U-Turn]

Can you think of one?
I think they knew they were going to run out of 6's, and didn't want to use so many in one spot. Perhaps if you have a few in a box in the garage somewhere, you could donate them to the state and the problem would be solved.

[uni57]

I think they knew they were going to run out of 6'sYES! Like when gas first rose above two dollars per gallon. Many gas stations ran out of 2's.*







* - remember, way long ago, when the gas pumps only went up to 99 cents? To charge more than a dollar per gallon, the price in the pump was halved and you had to pay double the reading.

[monkeyman]

* - remember, way long ago, when the gas pumps only went up to 99 cents? To charge more than a dollar per gallon, the price in the pump was halved and you had to pay double the reading.

Wow, really? That's crazy. Did they not have those roadside signs back then either?

[uni57]

Did they not have those roadside signs back then either?Good question. I really don't remember. Well, they had the signs, but I don't remember how they fit the extra digit. (anyway, signs are easier to modify than gas pumps)

Maybe some of the "old" people in this thread can remember ("old" forever means older than me).

[JJuggle]

Well, just for the record, the Matawan Aberdeen train station does have a spot 666.

[BillyTheMountain]

I was thinking that it is or should be unconstitutional to vote a particular way solely because of a religious view. The constitution is supposed to protect against the imposition of any particular religion, isn't it?

New Mexico legislators just voted to protect a mountain that is sacred to 19 Indian tribes.

What if everyone wanted legal protection for their sacred stuff?

Does that violate separation of church and state?

[Biggestbtc]

What if everyone wanted legal protection for their sacred stuff?

Then if you didn't want something changed or destroyed, you would just call it "sacred".

[maestro8]

New Mexico legislators just voted to protect a mountain that is sacred to 19 Indian tribes.

What if everyone wanted legal protection for their sacred stuff?

Does that violate separation of church and state?

I think Native Americans are a special case. Although I'm puzzled as to why. I mean, we stole their land and killed many of them... and now we're feeling guilty about it? These legislators need to remember we're the guys with the "boom sticks". We've no need to appease the Natives anymore.

Really, look at how much we've done with their land! All they did was set up camp here or there; they didn't bother doing much more than a bit of farming and the random cave painting.

[Biggestbtc]

I think Native Americans are a special case. Although I'm puzzled as to why. I mean, we stole their land and killed many of them... and now we're feeling guilty about it? These legislators need to remember we're the guys with the "boom sticks". We've no need to appease the Natives anymore.

Really, look at how much we've done with their land! All they did was set up camp here or there; they didn't bother doing much more than a bit of farming and the random cave painting.
Who knows what they would've done had we not so interrupted their cultural progress.

[uni57]

Who knows what they would've done had we not so interrupted their cultural progress.True, but living spiritual lives in harmony with nature? I doubt that, had we not 'interrupted' them, they would have littered the land with pavement and skyscrapers and McDonald's. But perhaps I hold a rather utopian view of how they lived. I think someone wrote a fictional book about what the Indians might have become had the white man not arrived on the scene.

[Biggestbtc]

True, but living spiritual lives in harmony with nature? I doubt that, had we not 'interrupted' them, they would have littered the land with pavement and skyscrapers and McDonald's. But perhaps I hold a rather utopian view of how they lived.
Maybe. But perhaps they would've destroyed themselves through inter-tribal warfare.

[peleschramm]

Responding to the original post (which I'm aware was written in 2007),

I'm thinking that the town should be sued for not placing a parking spot of 666 (assuming that it would have followed the numerical pattern). However, I don't think that whoever sued the town for it should get any money for it whatsoever (maybe only enough to pay lawyers etc.). The town should be sued, the town should lose, and the money should perhaps go to a charity of sorts.

[BluntRM]

My town is a major train hub for commuters to New York City. As a result the train station parking lot is quite large. The lot is, like most, a series of numbered spaces, most reserved for regulars.

There is no space 666.




Haha. Take that math.

[BillyTheMountain]

I think Native Americans are a special case. Although I'm puzzled as to why.

r u saying Separation of Church and State has an exception here, and only here?

[BillyTheMountain]

Responding to the original post (which I'm aware was written in 2007),

I'm thinking that the town should be sued for not placing a parking spot of 666 (assuming that it would have followed the numerical pattern). However, I don't think that whoever sued the town for it should get any money for it whatsoever (maybe only enough to pay lawyers etc.). The town should be sued, the town should lose, and the money should perhaps go to a charity of sorts.

It should go to the Satanists, who worship 666.

[maestro8]

r u saying Separation of Church and State has an exception here, and only here?

This seems to be what many US legislators practice. As I said, it puzzles me.

[BillyTheMountain]

This seems to be what many US legislators practice. As I said, it puzzles me.

TAKE A STAND!

Can we strip mine the sacred mountain?

Cut through it for the superhighway?

Cover it with casinos and lap dancers?

[maestro8]

TAKE A STAND!
Y'know, my legs are kinda tired from riding.

I think I'll take a seat instead.

[JJuggle]

Y'know, my legs are kinda tired from riding.

I think I'll take a seat instead.
Haha. Good play on words.

[BillyTheMountain]

TAKE A STAND!

Can we strip mine the sacred mountain?

Cut through it for the superhighway?

Cover it with casinos and lap dancers?

Puzzled. Pffft!

For you, is nothing sacred?

[maestro8]

For you, is nothing sacred?

Things exist only to be unmade at some point. Even memories fade.

To attach significance to any time or place is to ignore the true nature of reality.

[BillyTheMountain]

Definitions of sacred on the Web:

concerned with religion or religious purposes; "sacred texts"; "sacred rites"; "sacred music"
worthy of respect or dedication; "saw motherhood as woman's sacred calling"
consecrated: made or declared or believed to be holy; devoted to a deity or some religious ceremony or use; "a consecrated church"; "the sacred mosque"; "sacred elephants"; "sacred bread and wine"; "sanctified wine"
hallowed: worthy of religious veneration; "the sacred name of Jesus"; "Jerusalem's hallowed soil"
(often followed by `to') devoted exclusively to a single use or purpose or person; "a fund sacred to charity"; "a morning hour sacred to study"; "a private office sacred to the President"
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

[maestro8]

You attach significance to scientific "findings" so u make them sacred

That's like saying your insistence on wearing pants daily makes you a religious zealot.

[BillyTheMountain]

That's like saying your insistence on wearing pants daily makes you a religious zealot.

Hardly.

Science only accepts findings that are deemed "significant."

[Biggestbtc]

Hardly.

Science only accepts findings that are deemed "significant."
But what deems the findings significant? Apparently, since your wearing pants is an occurrence that happens very frequently, things that have regular repeating patterns should not be documented.

Like the movement of electrons.

[BillyTheMountain]

Definitions of statistical significance on the Web:

In statistics, a result is called statistically significant if it is unlikely to have occurred by chance. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistical_significance
A measure of how unlikely it is that a result has occurred by chance
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/statistical_significance
The probability that an event or difference occurred by chance alone. In clinical trials, the level of statistical significance depends on the number of participants studied and the observations made, as well as the magnitude of differences observed.
publicaffairs.uth.tmc.edu/clinicaltrials/glossary.html
the demonstration that the probability of obtaining a finding by chance alone is relatively low.
www.utexas.edu/academic/diia/assessment/iar/glossary.php
A general term referring to the unlikeliness that relationships observed in a sample could be attributed to sampling error alone. ...
www.etr.org/recapp/research/researchglossary.htm

[maestro8]

Apparently, since your wearing pants is an occurrence that happens very frequently, things that have regular repeating patterns should not be documented.

I have just been informed that the State of California has laws against creating a hostile work environment. An example of a hostile work environment would be one where a coworker wears no pants.

Being that I'm the type of zealot that is against pants, have my rights been violated? Has the State of California impinged on the Church of Freeballers?

[BillyTheMountain]

Maestro,

In the parable, Science told you that you would deny Science 3 times before the cock crowed.

And you have, right here in this thread.

W00t!

Billy

[johnfoss]

Do I have a case?This is America. Since when do you need to have a case to make a frivolous or ridiculous lawsuit? In this case, it looks like they did you one better, by painting in the 666. But you didn't mention whether the lot contains a space #13. In both cases I think it's silly. If you don't like the number 13, or 666, park elsewhere. That's better than parking in #14, which is next to #12, and being told later that you parked in the 13th spot.

For a 13th row on an airplane, I also don't think there are enough superstitious people to cause a problem, but at the same time I think people are more superstitious when flying than they are most of the time.

In hotels and other buildings, on the other hand, leaving in the 13th floor could have business consequences. It might be hard to fill or rent that floor, if it becomes vacant and new tenants don't like the number. Put them on 14 instead. :)

New Mexico legislators just voted to protect a mountain that is sacred to 19 Indian tribes.
Does that violate separation of church and state?That probably depends on the larger picture. I'm sure there were other factors in the decision; non-religion-based ones that made it just fine. If it was valuable land I'm sure it would not have been given up so easily...

[BillyTheMountain]

In hotels and other buildings, on the other hand, leaving in the 13th floor could have business consequences.


japanese hotels in san francisco have a 13th floor, isn't that odd?


That probably depends on the larger picture. I'm sure there were other factors :cool:in the decision; non-religion-based ones :eek:that made it just fine. :rolleyes:If it was valuable land :confused:I'm sure it would not have been given up so easily...

OOooOO! You're saying the politicians are corrupt!:p

That the American Indian still gets mistreated and abused by White Man!:mad:

That White Man can and will take whatever they want from the pagans!:mad:

OoooOO. :eek:We don't have to read between the lines to get what you're saying, John. You are so radical!:p