Illegal Alien Issue

[yoopers]

So I pass this joke (http://www.unicyclist.com/forums/showpost.php?p=749865&postcount=1042) around the office to a handful of people. A little later, I'm approached by the Operations Manager and good friend who tells me that my joke has offended an employee, an Hispanic girl, and suggests that I consider apologizing to her.

I agreed and immediately went to find the girl. I told her that I understand she was offended, that I didn't need to know the reason why, just knowing she's offended is enough for me, and I apologized. I told her that next time I would try to think better first. She was pretty bitter about it and responded with an emphatic, "Please do that.". Hopefully now, time will heal. I usually feel terrible whenever I offend someone.

But when I get back to my office, I find this email:
"Bruce,
That joke was NOT funny at ALL, That was so disrespectful, many of my family are illegal immigrants. Now that I told you that, why don’t you go and ship them all to Iraq."

In her defense, she did send me the email before I apologized to her. But now that I have her email, I'm not sure how to think about the whole thing. It's possible that even she is an illegal alien. If she is here legally, she shouldn't be offended. If she is here illegally, she has no right to be offended. Now I'm offended. Why should her relatives be allowed to live here, absorb the benefits, not pay taxes, etc. when I have to work and sacrifice for my privilege of living in this country?

Secondly, the joke does not mention any nationality at all. Unfortunately, it's too often and easily assumed here that illegal alien equates to Hispanic. It shouldn't be that way.

Thirdly, she is putting me at risk by giving me such information on her family. Working in the school system, Mary is mandated to report suspected child abuse. Am I similarly mandated to report illegal activity?

As management, I documented the incident and let it go. I hope it's buried. We'll see how she handles it next time our paths cross, which they do everyday.

[tobbogonist]

isn't it illegal to hold that information?

she hasn't really used her comon sence there and also she has put her whole family at jeporedy(sp?), just to express the fact that she is offended.

Yoopers i am with you on this one. I Know it is not there fault but what they are doing is still illegal and now she has sucked you into it.

If they are discovered she could argue that you knew.. then a pickle could be on the menu.

Ps: that joke was rather amusing.

[ivan]

I would just pretend it never happened. Like I deleted the message by accident or something. Sure, it's really stupid of her to tell you a detail like that and be offended and all that, but I don't think it's any good to go around getting people in trouble. And I'm sure it would be a lot of trouble for her if more people found out. She must have been stressed out when she said it, it can be pretty hard being an immigrant(whether illegal or not).

Just let it slide.

[CliffNaylor]

My ip has been banned, but as someone ( I dont remember who ) mentioned, there is a panacea for this. I just change my ip. It's simple. I haven't done anything in the last couple days, so don't be so uptight.

[stuckinwheeliemode]

I suggest you report this to the police or whatever because as you said it is not right for them to live tax free and be offended blah blah blah

[yoopers]

I would just pretend it never happened. Like I deleted the message by accident or something. Sure, it's really stupid of her to tell you a detail like that and be offended and all that, but I don't think it's any good to go around getting people in trouble. And I'm sure it would be a lot of trouble for her if more people found out. She must have been stressed out when she said it, it can be pretty hard being an immigrant(whether illegal or not).

Just let it slide.
The problem might arise that she can't let it go and makes a stink about it. If I'm caught withholding information, can I be in trouble for it?

[ThisGuyIKnow]

I'm a white American and I find that joke offensive. Why because it's layered with ignorance.

Illegal immigration seems to be another issue you are willfully ignorant on.

Mainly that many undocumented workers do pay taxes, either through an EIN or a fake SSN. Having paid taxes while they live here helps their case in future citizenship possibilities.

Also the U.S. Military does recruit in Mexico and offers a possibility of citizenship after their term of service. They are given no guarantee though when they get back they will be granted the opportunity to become citizens.

It's mainly Hispanics that are the illegal immigrants because our immigration policies for people from other countries is much more lenient.

The problems of illegal immigration that you mention don't actually stem from the fact that they are here, but from the fact that they are illegal.

If an undocumented person is working in this country on the books taxes are being withheld from his paycheck. If he is working under the table, the business or individual who he is working for cannot legally deduct these wages for tax purposes and therefor the money that is being paid out is coming out of the profits of the company. The company profits are going to be taxed at a much higher rate than the wages of someone making less than minimum wage. So even if the person isn't paying taxes directly, taxes are being paid on behalf of their working in this country. That is of course unless the company is cheating on their taxes which is probably the case, but the worker can't really be blamed for the company breaking the law.

Again your willful ignorance of the subject you should be ashamed of.

[tobbogonist]

I think it might be considered as hiding illegal immigrants, at a stretch..

[johnfoss]

1. I considered the joke to be in poor taste, and not very humorous. The idea of military service as a way to become a citizen is something that might be favorable, especially when we have an unpopular war going on. But doing this alone would not change anything at the border. Same incentives to cross, same # will cross unless enforcement changes.

2. You *did* mention hispanic, as the joke said "border." Though it could be Canada, we don't really have a problem up there.

3. She did not mention any names, just "many members of her family" so you don't know who. By saying this she did not imply that she approves of the practice either, just that she felt offended, which is her perogative.

Just dropping it seems like the best course of action. I'm surprised you would not think that joke annoying to hispanic people. Same idea as a joke that somehow pokes fun at the Holocaust. If you have any Jewish co-workers, there's a chance they lost direct family members in that.

[TheObieOne3226]

I pretty much agree with your feelings and actions in this scenario to the letter. Good call apologizing, although I also fail to see what was so offensive to her personally.

I too am offended that she is offended. Illegal immigrants get deported, that's just how it works. If you had said, "thieves should go to jail," she would have no right to be offended regardless of any relations that may be thieves.

Edit: I disagree with everything Foss said, to the letter.

[JJuggle]

Bruce, I am really missing the posts about you stopping to help strangers, pointing out the good deeds of others, or even the ones about your children's prowess at sports and academics. These recent ones are making me very sad.

[maestro8]

But now that I have her email, I'm not sure how to think about the whole thing. ... If she is here illegally, she has no right to be offended. Now I'm offended.
I'm with you here. I may not agree with 100% of the U.S.'s immigration policies, but putting that aside, she has no right to lambast you for looking down your nose at illegal activity. To draw a parallel, it'd be as if she was insulted by you scolding her for driving into work in a drunken state.

She or her family has done something illegal, and they have yet to be held accoutable for their actions. Someone SHOULD be calling her out, but I realize one must tiptoe around his workplace for reasons of self-preservation.

I'd say find an anonymous tip line, call 'em and report the b*tch. Yeah, I know, the Lord sayeth "vengance is mine", but the Lord is slow to act many times. How dare she challenge a Yooper!

[saskatchewanian]

i agree with foss

[ThisGuyIKnow]

If she is in fact illegal herself, your company hired her, so they are breaking the law as well. Be sure to report the company as well.

[johnfoss]

She or her family has done something illegal, and they have yet to be held accoutable for their actions. Someone SHOULD be calling her out, but I realize one must tiptoe around his workplace for reasons of self-preservation. Woah, let's calm down there. Firstly, there are many *legal* reasons why you must tiptoe around the workplace. I'm sure it differs from state to state, but California has loads of workplace rules/laws on harassment and inappropriate behavior. So some degree of tiptoeing is prudent.

Secondly the discussion seems to be turning gradually away from the original infraction and toward a comment made by the person who shares my tastes, and found the joke to be offensive. She didn't say *she* was illegal (why would she). It could be the rest of her immeidate family she was talking about, or a few cousins that work on farms in California. You don't know. Some people have really big families.

If you want, you could have your HR department (or equivalent) check up on this woman to see if she's really a citizen. Of course they may resist, because to find out would mean they didn't do their job when hiring her. But if she's not a citizen herself, I highly doubt she would have mentioned anything. With luck, this will go away, or already has. If she makes a big deal out of it, you could face some sort of reprimand for using the company email system to distribute "something bad."

Obie, you liked the joke? Honestly, I'm a big fan of George Carlin and have even seen him live in concert. But that joke loses a *lot* without the delivery. Plus some of George Carlin's material is *supposed* to be offensive. There's a big difference between a joke in print and a joke delivered with all the timing and nuances of live speech. Plus the live version has no paper trail. :)

[maestro8]

I'm a white American and I find that joke offensive. Why because I have a stick up my a**
Fixed.

The only ignorance that's going on here is your inability to see Bruce's point of view. You seem to have a very narrow, pessimistic view of the world, GuyIDon'tKnow, and you do a great job of imposing that view on every other poster on these boards.

It's mainly Hispanics that are the illegal immigrants because our immigration policies for people from other countries is much more lenient.
Point us to the sections of code that call out Hispanics and then we can talk. Until then I'm going to assume you're pulling more BS out of your ass, as you've done time and time again on these fora.

I'm surprised you would not think that joke annoying to hispanic people.
I'm surprised that you think that joke implies any person in particular. Your numbered "arguments" are self-contradicting. Were you trying to make a point or just stir the pot?

[maestro8]

I'm sure it differs from state to state, but California has loads of workplace rules/laws on harassment and inappropriate behavior.
So you're saying it's inappropriate to take action on a co-worker who is suspected of engaging in an illegal activity?

[ThisGuyIKnow]

Fixed.

The only ignorance that's going on here is your inability to see Bruce's point of view. You seem to have a very narrow, pessimistic view of the world, GuyIDon'tKnow, and you do a great job of imposing that view on every other poster on these boards.

He stated that illegals don't pay taxes, many of them do. So to say that undocumented workers don't pay taxes is an ignorant view.

Someone coming from Europe has a much easier time getting a work permit than someone from Central or South America. Someone from Cuba only has to set foot on American soil to be eligible for citizen. The rules vary by country of origin. The only Mexicans who are able to immigrate easily to this country are the college educated. Where this is written into the law or not it's the reality of the situation.

[tobbogonist]

i dont know why, but i find the word ignorant to be widely over used. kinda like the word 'wicked'

[maestro8]

Someone coming from Europe has a much easier time getting a work permit than someone from Central or South America. Someone from Cuba only has to set foot on American soil to be eligible for citizen. The rules vary by country of origin. The only Mexicans who are able to immigrate easily to this country are the college educated. Where this is written into the law or not it's the reality of the situation.
I'm going to assume you're pulling more BS out of your ass, as you've done time and time again on these fora.
You illustrate my point beautifully. Guy, have you been in college? If so, I'd have to assume you took a non-science major, 'cause you'd be nailed to the wall if you wrote any such thing in a scientific paper. You see, there are these things called "references" that give one's argument credibility. So far, you have none. You might as well be posting in MR.

[ThisGuyIKnow]

You illustrate my point beautifully. Guy, have you been in college? If so, I'd have to assume you took a non-science major, 'cause you'd be nailed to the wall if you wrote any such thing in a scientific paper. You see, there are these things called "references" that give one's argument credibility. So far, you have none. You might as well be posting in MR.

Since this isn't a scientific paper, and I should be working, I'm not going to go look this stuff up for you. No one else in this thread is referencing their statements with research either.

[Brian MacKenzie]

Perhaps your time at work, as a member of management, would be best used to set an example of how employees of a company should best utilize the company's resources, i.e. technology and man-hours. Surely your company must have some sort of policy against this sort of email being passed around on company time?

Is this the sort of material you censor your children from?

[numberthree]

You might as well be posting in MR.

Whoah, that is a cheap shot. There is nothing wrong with MR. You need to step back a little and look at the reality of the thread. It is not a place for people without "references" it is just a place where some of us go to chat. We hardly ever argue in there. It is very friendly. After all, it is just a chat room and that is what we use it for.

[johnfoss]

I'm surprised that you think that joke implies any person in particular. Your numbered "arguments" are self-contradicting. Were you trying to make a point or just stir the pot? Not any particluar person, just hispanics. I already explained that. Do we have borders with Afghanistan? No. Hard to walk across so there is much less of a problem with other nations. Mexico is where the vast majority of our documented workers come from. Do you need references? :)

The numbers were just to break up the different thoughts. I don't see the conflict. I wasn't trying to stir. This time.

So you're saying it's inappropriate to take action on a co-worker who is suspected of engaging in an illegal activity? The bit you quoted was about Bruce's inappropriate action, not hers, which is the actionable thing that happened. His coworker made mention of a fact that may or may not be true. Is she engaging in illegal activity if she mentions she has "family" who are illegals?

[Borges]

I don't know what the rules (http://www.illegalaliens.us/law.htm) are in Illinois, but I knowing that you know someone who knows someone who is an illegal alien shouldn't be a serious offense, if an offense at all.

[yoopers]

Bruce, I am really missing the posts about you stopping to help strangers, pointing out the good deeds of others, or even the ones about your children's prowess at sports and academics. These recent ones are making me very sad.
R,

It's all making me very sad as well. Every once in awhile, I end up having just about enough of it and make a post or two. And every time, it's the same thing, it turns into World War Point-A-Finger. So I'll try to get back to powder puff posts and maybe my day will be happy again. What do you think?


Brian,

Everyone works very hard in our office. It's a new plant and it taking a lot of effort to push the plant up and over the initial mountain. Occasional well placed funnies throughout the day are encouraged from the top down and welcomed by all...except for this time. I should have put a touch more thought into this one before sending it along.

And no, this is not something that I would censor. Not sure why you would ask that. Matter of fact, I forwarded it to both my boys. By the way, did I mention the results of my boys' latest athletic competition?

[TheObieOne3226]

Obie, you liked the joke? Honestly, I'm a big fan of George Carlin and have even seen him live in concert. But that joke loses a *lot* without the delivery. Plus some of George Carlin's material is *supposed* to be offensive. There's a big difference between a joke in print and a joke delivered with all the timing and nuances of live speech. Plus the live version has no paper trail. :)

Agreed. I don't like the joke. I could see it spoken well by Carlin though. Written jokes need a punchline usually. I know he uses offensive jokes, but to me this isn't bad (not that offensive jokes are bad, they are the best). I could see her being offended if he said ship all the mexicans to Iraq, but I think she is overreacting in this case.

I want all illegal immigrants to leave the country immediately. Saying so should not offend. They know they are wrong. They are basically stealing police protection, trash pickups, etc. And jobs. The wage for laborers (painters masons etc) in cities near the border is so low just because mexicans tend to be cheap and plentiful.

[maestro8]

Do we have borders with Afghanistan? No.
Wrong. In order for an Afghani to enter our country, they have to cross our border, one way or another.

Is she engaging in illegal activity if she mentions she has "family" who are illegals?
Yes. Harboring a known fugitive is a felony under California Penal Code.

[maestro8]

Since this isn't a scientific paper, and I should be working, I'm not going to go look this stuff up for you.
You should get a job with Fox News. You've got about as much integrity as most of their "reporters".

The joke Bruce circulated actually has a good idea in it... trading service for citizenship could help our country in more ways than one. You call that ignorant, then state a bunch of "facts", none of which you can back up. What exactly are you trying to accomplish?

Edit: Strike that last sentence. I don't care.

[monkeyman]

I didn't really think the joke was funny, but not because of the "offensive" content, but because I just don't think it can work well written out. It's probably much funnier from Carlin's mouth. That said, the lady shouldn't have been offended. Assuming she's illegal, she shouldn't be here in the first place. I really don't care if she's paying more taxes than most citizens, she's still breaking a fairly important law.

Bruce, I think you handled it well. Probably a lot better than I would have.

[yoopers]

Here's another thought I had today that I read out of her email. I could have the interpretation completely wrong, though. It's almost as if she has been desensitized to the illegalness of illegal aliens. It's as if she's looking at these people sort of as a minority class or something.

[Brian MacKenzie]

Everyone works very hard in our office.

Clearly not hard enough.

this is not something that I would censor. Not sure why you would ask that.

simply that you stated in another thread, (paraphrasing) that you are the moral censor of what your family sees, and you feel humour like this is perfectly acceptable. Careful kids, you wouldn't want to see boobs, instead, here's some jokes about mexicans

[yoopers]

Clearly not hard enough.
Your ill-informed opinion is duly noted.


simply that you stated in another thread, (paraphrasing) that you are the moral censor of what your family sees, and you feel humour like this is perfectly acceptable. Careful kids, you wouldn't want to see boobs, instead, here's some jokes about mexicans
Open your eyes, Brian. It was NOT a joke about Mexicans.

[ThisGuyIKnow]

The joke Bruce circulated actually has a good idea in it... trading service for citizenship could help our country in more ways than one.


As I explained in my previous post, it's already an option for non-U.S. citizens to enlist in the U.S. military for a possibility of gaining citizen ship. IT doesn't guarantee eligibility though.

Hopefully our foreign U.S. soldiers are treated better by the U.S. military, than the North African soldiers were treated by the French military during WWII

[ThisGuyIKnow]

Open your eyes, Brian. It was NOT a joke about Mexicans.

Um, yes, it is. See John Foss's post.

Just curious if it were 1840 would you turn someone in for helping a runaway slave?

Also illegal immigration is not a criminal offense so it's not harboring a fugitive.

[JJuggle]

Open your eyes, Brian. It was NOT a joke about Mexicans.
Bruce, it is one of the beautiful things about white privilege in America that you can say that and it is not a lie that you believe it.

[numberthree]

It said no where in the joke anything about mexicans.
Your mind is so programmed into the "fact" that illegal immigrant means mexican that you can't get past the fact that there are other types of illegal immigrants.

[yoopers]

Um, yes, it is. See John Foss's post.

Um, no, it's not. See maestro's post. But more importantly, find me the mention of Mexican in the joke. It was not intended to point toward any nationality on my account. Perhaps ol' George intended something different, I don't know...I wasn't there. And if you wish to construe it in a certain fashion, so be it.

[johnfoss]

That said, the lady shouldn't have been offended. Assuming she's illegal, she shouldn't be here in the first place.
Why is everyone assuming she is illegal? I highly doubt she would have brought up the issue if she was. In any case, it is not up to you whether someone else can be offended by something. Her opinion is as valid as yours, and it may be much more personal to her if she is Mexican, or an immigrant.

For maestro, assuming IL law is the same as CA, how do you know she's harboring? Did she say something about living in the same house with them? Most of my "family" live half a country away.

[Brian MacKenzie]

Open your eyes, Brian. It was NOT a joke about Mexicans.

OK, sorry, it was simply a joke that all the white workers could enjoy, because they aren't mexicans.

Bruce, you're in MANAGEMENT. Try to use some common sense, I'm sure you expect no less from your subordinates.

[ThisGuyIKnow]

It said no where in the joke anything about mexicans.
Your mind is so programmed into the "fact" that illegal immigrant means mexican that you can't get past the fact that there are other types of illegal immigrants.

As John pointed out in the first page it says "border" in the "joke". Immigrants from other countries to the East or West are either coming by boat or airplane.

The only other Border with the United States is Canada, but because the number of "illegal immigrants" from Canada is so small and because the majority of them are visually indistinguishable from European originated U.S. citizens they aren't generally not thought of in the debate on illegal immigration.

So yes it IS about Mexicans.

And like I've mentioned, despite Maestro giving me crap for not showing any sources, the regulations for immigrants from many other nations don't have as much red tape for getting work permit than our neighbors from the South do.

[numberthree]

For maestro, assuming IL law is the same as CA, how do you know she's harboring? Did she say something about living in the same house with them? Most of my "family" live half a country away.

Most mexicans live with there imediate family. To them that means grandparents and aunts and uncles and brothers and sisters. In mexcian culture family's are much closer.

[ThisGuyIKnow]

OK, sorry, it was simply a joke that all the white workers could enjoy, because they aren't mexicans.


I'm white, I don't enjoy that joke. I'm not a woman but I don't like a lot of sexist jokes either.

There is also a huge difference between a joke that is clearly a joke, and a joke that seems to have some pent up hostility behind it.

If I actually heard George Carlin speaking it, the hostility would probably be dissolved, but in the written form the joke IS hostile. It's built on this assumption of white privilege.

[ThisGuyIKnow]

Most mexicans...

Making assumptions about other cultures are we?

And Hispanic does not = Mexican

[TheObieOne3226]

The United States has borders on all sides. Cubans come across the gulf. People are smuggled into this country in shipping containers all the time. Asian men and women from former USSR countries come to mind. People let their green cards lapse and overstay their welcome. Illegal aliens are not all Mexican.

[yoopers]

So yes it IS about Mexicans.
I happened to come across the border a few times and I don't seem to be Mexican. So no, my intentions were not directed toward any particular nationality of people.

I do however regret circulating the joke. As I told the offended girl, it was without enough forethought on my part and I won't do it again.

I do not like upsetting people. It makes both them and me feel bad. I seem to be doing a good job with Mr. MacKenzie though, but I'm not going to get into an immaturity race with him. He seems to win every time.

[numberthree]

Making assumptions about other cultures are we?

And Hispanic does not = Mexican

No, actually I'm not. My spanish teacher is Hispanic and she told us. Unless the teachers in the public education system are taught to lie to us about things as basic as that.

[yoopers]

In mexcian culture family's are much closer.This seems to be a fairly true statement. In my visits to Mexico, the thing that strikes me over and over again is the family togetherness. It's nothing to see a father and son in Mexico walking down the street arm in arm, or whole families congregating together. It is a beautiful thing. It's also a beautiful country. Someday, I hope to take a family trip to Mexico.

[ThisGuyIKnow]

The United States has borders on all sides. Cubans come across the gulf. People are smuggled into this country in shipping containers all the time. Asian men and women from former USSR countries come to mind. People let their green cards lapse and overstay their welcome. Illegal aliens are not all Mexican.

Yes, and when Cubans set foot on American soil they are eligible for citizenship.

When we take about border patrol and people crossing the border illegally people are talking about people coming through Mexico into the United States. Although not all illegal immigrants are coming from that part of the world, the majority of anti-immigrant sentiment IS directed at them.

The problem with the humor of this type of joke is that it takes white privilege and shoves it in the noses of everyone else.


I'm glad that Bruce realizes how this type of thing is offensive.

It's offensive because the hostilities involved are genuine.

[ThisGuyIKnow]

This seems to be a fairly true statement. In my visits to Mexico, the thing that strikes me over and over again is the family togetherness. It's nothing to see a father and son in Mexico walking down the street arm in arm, or whole families congregating together. It is a beautiful thing. It's also a beautiful country. Someday, I hope to take a family trip to Mexico.

Yes, but any statement that starts "Most (insert group" is loaded.

For example "Most white people like football and beer."

[TheObieOne3226]

The problem with the humor of this type of joke is that it takes white privilege and shoves it in the noses of everyone else.



How do you figure?

[uniska]

If it were me, I would get them all sent back, not to be a rascist but just because I am an asshole haha I bet you guys think I am really horrible but I don't care.......but whatever I mean what are you going to do...the gov't won't stop illegal immigration anyway......if they really tried, I know for a fact they could stop it, but they don't care. However keep the message...save it so if she ever gives you any shit you blackmail that bitch with it........let it slide this time but next time shes got a storm coming her way

[monkeyman]

Why is everyone assuming she is illegal? I highly doubt she would have brought up the issue if she was.
I'm not saying she is. I actually don't think she is, I'm just saying that I don't think she has any reason to be offended by it.

In any case, it is not up to you whether someone else can be offended by something. Her opinion is as valid as yours, and it may be much more personal to her if she is Mexican, or an immigrant.
I had a feeling I should have made that more clear. She has the right to be offended by it, sure, but I don't think she has any reason to be, much less to act like she did. To use the stop sign example, the driver has the right to be offended by the cop pulled her over, but not much of a valid reason to act offensive back towards the cop.

I'm not trying to say that her opinion isn't valid, or something like that. She can be offended if she wants, I just think she's being stupid, and that she shouldn't have acted the way she did towards Bruce. Does that make any sense? I swear it makes sense in my head. :o

[yoopers]

If it were me, I'm glad it's not you then. The incident has been documented and filed and will be used only to protect me or the company if need be. The girl is a good employee and a great asset to the organization, and she is a friend of mine.

[uni57]

I just think she's being stupidJUST BECAUSE SHE'S MEXICAN????

I'm very disappointed in you, monkeyman.




(just kidding! I know, bad joke...)

[toddw9]

Although not all illegal immigrants are coming from that part of the world, the majority of anti-immigrant sentiment IS directed at them.


That's a very true statement, however, it is not the joke itself that places them in there. If you think the joke is specifically about Mexicans, it's because you put the two together. The joke itself does not single out Mexicans. While the joke doesn't single them out, based on the fact that yes, the majority of anti-immigrant sentiment is directed at them, it is likely that the majority of people that read the joke will associate Mexicans/Hispanics with it.

I think it's purely human nature that when they see a joke like that, they instinctively need to associate a certain group of people with it.

I personally think the joke in and of itself is completely unoffensive, however, what I do find offensive is the people that automatically associate Hispanics with it even though the joke makes no mention of it.

Borders are land and sea. The joke doesn't specify which, and no matter how you look at it, if somebody wants to enter the United States from anywhereelse in the world, they have no choice but to cross the border.

I can see how a Hispanic could easily be offended by that joke since they are likely going to make the same connections to a specific people group.

The Hispanic population likely makes up the vast majority of illegal immigrants, but the joke speaks about illegal immigrants as a whole, no matter where they come from. There is no isolation of a specific group. It's disgusting that so many people make that isolation.

I laughed at the joke. So shoot me.

[ThisGuyIKnow]

It's offensive because it's jingoistic not because it has anything to do with Hispanics. The fact that people are still trying to argue that ti's not offensive because it's not specifically about Hispanics have missed the point entirely.

[toddw9]

It's offensive because it's jingoistic

How is it even jingoistic? It's not like it's anti-immigration (legally).

It is specifically against a particular action that is illegal and offering a solution to make it legal. It's not like it's stating that every potential immigrant should fight in the US military first. It talks about stopping specifically those that are attempting to enter the county illegally.

I don't see it as jingoistic.

[monkeyman]

JUST BECAUSE SHE'S MEXICAN????


Well, obviously.

[toddw9]

How is it even jingoistic? It's not like it's anti-immigration (legally).

It is specifically against a particular action that is illegal and offering a solution to make it legal. It's not like it's stating that every potential immigrant should fight in the US military first. It talks about stopping specifically those that are attempting to enter the county illegally.

I don't see it as jingoistic.

Continuing (or rather, re-iterating) that point:

SomeGuy, it seems you are understanding the joke as flat-out anti-immigration. The situation where somebody wants to enter the country by going through the legal process required isn't even addressed by the joke, nor does it even imply a connection between the two.

[ThisGuyIKnow]

It's jingoistic because it's based on a principle of we deserve to be here and they don't.

[TheObieOne3226]

We are lucky to live in civilized countries. You still can't flout the rules. I wish I was born rich but I'm not going to rob a bank.

[monkeyman]

I wish I was born rich but I'm not going to rob a bank.

Very well said, Obie.

[UniBrier]

If it will solve anything: Snopes says it isn't George Carlin's bit (http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/carlingas.asp).

Recent quote (http://www.masslive.com/hampfrank/republican/index.ssf?/base/news-8/117370145874780.xml&coll=1) about good old GC:SPRINGFIELD - Misanthropic rantings, vile anecdotes about incest and a continuous assault on religion were passed off as comedy during a 70-minute performance by George Carlin at Springfield Symphony Hall…

…Carlin made note of nuclear proliferation and global warming, while offering his own doomsday prophecy.
"The world would be great if it weren't for the people," Carlin said. "There are too many people. It's time for a nice plague."

Throughout the night, Carlin ridiculed people who believe in God or an afterlife by offering arguments of "logic." The comic might not have resolved the great spiritual debate, but he did demonstrate that an hour of preaching, whether by a religious zealot or an atheist, can grow tiresome…

[ThisGuyIKnow]

If it will solve anything: Snopes says it isn't George Carlin's bit (http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/carlingas.asp).


I'm actually glad to hear that because I like George Carlin and this was really making me lose respect for him.

[GILD]

Can't leave you guys alone for a second, can I?

Bruce, you screwed-up by forwarding that one.
You stood up and apologised for the unintended offence caused.
Done.

Finding out that some of her family are illegals is a tricky one.
You're on good terms with local law-enforcement, can't you have a vague chat to someone about the possible implications of you having this information?
From a purely legal point of view.
Letting this thing drop still seems like the best course of action right now - legals permitting.

[john_childs]

If it will solve anything: Snopes says it isn't George Carlin's bit (http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/carlingas.asp).

Thank you for that. I was trying to figure out how George could have delivered that and made it funny. I don't find the joke funny. It's more like a bad op-ed than a joke.

Maybe it's just a little too close to true. Legal immigrants can get a fast track to citizenship (http://immigration.about.com/od/uscitizenshiprequirements/i/MilitCitizenIss.htm) by joining the military. And here's a similar editorial proposal (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/18/AR2006101801500.html) by the CFR.

I'm not in favor of going soft on illegal immigrants. And I understand and appreciate the illegal part of illegal immigrant. A country needs to have immigration laws and an orderly immigration process. Illegal immigrants disrupt that. But the original joke went too far for me to consider it as a joke.

[Borges]

A very serious comment (http://www.comics.com/comics/monty/archive/monty-20070316.html) about how careful you have to be when you don't know the sensibilities of your audience.

[ivan]

The problem might arise that she can't let it go and makes a stink about it. If I'm caught withholding information, can I be in trouble for it?
Just delete the e-mail as if it never happened.

[maestro8]

For maestro, assuming IL law is the same as CA, how do you know she's harboring? Did she say something about living in the same house with them? Most of my "family" live half a country away.
If she's not harboring, she's withholding information about known criminals. This is either a misdemeanor or a felony, depending on the severity of the crime. If you're truly curious I could research the IL code, but I'll have to charge you an hourly fee. :p

[ThisGuyIKnow]

If she's not harboring, she's withholding information about known criminals. This is either a misdemeanor or a felony, depending on the severity of the crime. If you're truly curious I could research the IL code, but I'll have to charge you an hourly fee. :p

Again as I've already mentioned in this thread, being in this country without having followed the proper channels in NOT a criminal offense. So harboring criminal laws do not apply.

The thing that caused all of the protest was a house resolution that would make being in this country without permission a criminal offense.

But currently it is NOT criminal, so no states laws on harboring criminals, etc, come into play.

So you're ragging on me for not backing my statements up with research and calling me misinformed, etc, when you are in the exact same boat.

[JJuggle]

If she's not harboring, she's withholding information about known criminals. This is either a misdemeanor or a felony, depending on the severity of the crime.
So you turn in every friend, family member and acquaintance you know to be using illegal drugs, driving while under the influence of alcohol, or cheating on their taxes to name a few commonly committed criminal acts.

[ThisGuyIKnow]

So you turn in every friend, family member and acquaintance you know to be using illegal drugs, driving while under the influence of alcohol, or cheating on their taxes to name a few commonly committed criminal acts.

I shouldn't have to remind you too, that being in this country without permission IS illegal, but it is NOT criminal.

But I still like your point very much.

[uni57]

Just delete the e-mail as if it never happened.Many companies archive emails, so deleting it does not erase all traces of it. Plus, SHE still has a copy. If the company ever reads her email for some reason, they may see that email (and the fact that it came from Bruce). Employees have no privacy when it comes to anything they do on corporate computer systems, whether it be the computer on their desk, the email system, or any other system. And after the Enron and Worldcom scandals, there are laws that require (certain?) companies to archive ALL emails for a number of years and make those emails easily searchable by law enforcement. I should know more about these laws (regulations?), because the software company I work for makes email archival and compliance products.

[maestro8]

But currently it is NOT criminal, so no states laws on harboring criminals, etc, come into play.
I was wrong... I should've said Federal laws. The following law assumes she's living with her family. If not, well, you can read further into the code. She's in hot water either way.

Sec. 274. [8 U.S.C. 1324]
(http://www.uscis.gov/propub/template.htm?view=document&doc_action=sethitdoc&doc_hit=1&doc_searchcontext=jump&s_context=jump&s_action=newSearch&s_method=applyFilter&s_fieldSearch=nxthomecollectionid|SLB&s_fieldSearch=foliodestination|ACT274&s_type=all&hash=0-0-0-245)
SS. a.1.A.iii:
Any person who [is] knowing or [is] in reckless disregard of the fact that an alien has come to, entered, or remains in the United States in violation of law, conceals, harbors, or shields from detection, or attempts to conceal, harbor, or shield from detection, such alien in any place, including any building or any means of transportation...

SS. a.1.B.ii:
A person who violates subparagraph (A) shall, for each alien in respect to whom such a violation occurs be fined under title 18, United States Code, imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both;

Furthermore, under the Homeland Security Enhancement Act (http://www.nilc.org/immlawpolicy/LocalLaw/HSEA_sec_by_sec_1005.pdf) (S. 1362) of 2005, "noncitizens who are present in the United States in violation of the INA shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and fined and/or imprisoned for no more than one year."

[maestro8]

So you turn in every friend, family member and acquaintance you know to be using illegal drugs, driving while under the influence of alcohol, or cheating on their taxes to name a few commonly committed criminal acts.
I am legally obligated to do so. The company that I work for reinforces my obligation (being that we're a government contractor). Whether or not I do so is my personal choice.

There is nothing in my post which you quoted that implies your statement; I do not see where you are coming from.

I shouldn't have to remind you too, that being in this country without permission IS illegal, but it is NOT criminal.
Yeah you shouldn't, 'cause you're WRONG.

[JJuggle]

I am legally obligated to do so. The company that I work for reinforces my obligation (being that we're a government contractor). Whether or not I do so is my personal choice.

There is nothing in my post which you quoted that implies your statement; I do not see where you are coming from.
I'm not sure why you don't see the analogy.

If you take as your personal choice whether or not to meet your legal obligations, do you believe the woman in Bruce's account has the right to make the same choice?

[ThisGuyIKnow]

I was wrong... I should've said Federal laws. The following law assumes she's living with her family. If not, well, you can read further into the code. She's in hot water either way.

Sec. 274. [8 U.S.C. 1324]
(http://www.uscis.gov/propub/template.htm?view=document&doc_action=sethitdoc&doc_hit=1&doc_searchcontext=jump&s_context=jump&s_action=newSearch&s_method=applyFilter&s_fieldSearch=nxthomecollectionid|SLB&s_fieldSearch=foliodestination|ACT274&s_type=all&hash=0-0-0-245)
SS. a.1.A.iii:
Any person who [is] knowing or [is] in reckless disregard of the fact that an alien has come to, entered, or remains in the United States in violation of law, conceals, harbors, or shields from detection, or attempts to conceal, harbor, or shield from detection, such alien in any place, including any building or any means of transportation...

SS. a.1.B.ii:
A person who violates subparagraph (A) shall, for each alien in respect to whom such a violation occurs be fined under title 18, United States Code, imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both;

Furthermore, under the Homeland Security Enhancement Act (http://www.nilc.org/immlawpolicy/LocalLaw/HSEA_sec_by_sec_1005.pdf) (S. 1362) of 2005, "noncitizens who are present in the United States in violation of the INA shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and fined and/or imprisoned for no more than one year."

Alright so it's a matter of semantics here. It may be criminal to harbor an alien, but being an alien is not criminal so the person is NOT "harboring a criminal" and what they would be charged with "harboring an alien" which a different offense than harboring a criminal as you suggested.

JJuggle's statement still applies.

[ThisGuyIKnow]

Further, the woman in question, unless her relatives are actually living with her she in not harboring them. The fact that she speaks openly about it, she not concealing that information, or sheilding them from detection. She in nto in violation of that law.

Also the Homeland Security Enhancement Act of 2005 that you used to "prove" that being here in this country without authorization was criminal was a bill introduced to the senate in 2005. It has not however passed and therefore is NOT law.

For further information on the current status of said bill see here (http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s109-1362).

[uni57]

I am legally obligated to do so.Shall we start here (http://www.unicyclist.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58300)?


Don't take that the wrong way -- I think you are stating a fact, not necessarily whether you agree with it. Are we really required to play part-time cop?

[yoopers]

Many companies archive emails, so deleting it does not erase all traces of it. Plus, SHE still has a copy. If the company ever reads her email for some reason, they may see that email (and the fact that it came from Bruce). Employees have no privacy when it comes to anything they do on corporate computer systems, whether it be the computer on their desk, the email system, or any other system.
Not to mention that my son, Ben, is a computer tech here and has access to all that stuff. Hmmm....

[jimbojones]

what happened to the days when people could go to america to escape the troubles of their home country and lead a better life now i agree they should be paying taxes and i'm sure alot if not most are.I think you should not worry about it and if she does make a big stink about it then you should maybe report her just to cover your own behind

[johnfoss]

So you turn in every friend, family member and acquaintance you know to be using illegal drugs, driving while under the influence of alcohol, or cheating on their taxes to name a few commonly committed criminal acts.
...And the economy would collapse because there wouldn't be enough workforce left to pay for the prisons. Especially in California based on our current percentage of incarcerated population... :)

But then when things settled down, we'd have a country full of people more inclined to not do illegal things. Do you look the other way when your friends or acquaintances are criminals? Sometimes I do, but other times I find it hard not to do something about it. Many neighborhoods that suffer from lots of crime do so because too many people, sometimes the actual victims, don't think it's right to turn in the criminals.

[yoopers]

Well, after I thought the issue was laid to rest and time will heal, the problem has progressed. There are two other Hispanic employees at the plant and now all three are on board and really torked at me. Word seems to be spreading like wildfire around the plant. I'm an insensitive racist. I even heard today that someone asked how I could dare being offended at the email she blistered off to me. WHAT? How ignorant can a person be? How could this have reached this point? (Don't answer that. I know full well how it got here.) If it was anywhere else and I was in any other position, I would be the one now demanding an apology. That the situation has progressed to here is absurd! It's ridiculous!

Now I'm torked! It's almost like mob action, like a growing riot, and over something that was a simple misunderstanding resulting in a sincere apology. I am quite disturbed that these seemingly growing accusations against my character are being hurled. How many more times do I have to apologize? The answer is of course that for a person in my position and of my character, as many times as necessary no matter what pride or anger I have to swallow.

We had a quick manager's meeting at the end of the day and decided that we need to nip this in the bud quickly. This thing has to disappear. So this weekend, I'm to write a letter of apology, which I'll gladly do, and come Monday morning, we'll meet again to go over it before calling the affected employees in to present the letter.

I'm a little concerned tonight that if this issue persists, it could force the hand of the company to remove me. I highly doubt that it will come to that, but it's in the back of my mind.

Meanwhile, I'm going to first of all not write the letter tonight in my current state of mind, and secondly, enjoy the busy weekend we've got planned.

Should I let you all know what happens next week?

[ThisGuyIKnow]

Meanwhile, I'm going to first of all not write the letter tonight in my current state of mind, and secondly, enjoy the busy weekend we've got planned.

Should I let you all know what happens next week?

Just start a new thread about your busy weekend plans. It'll take your mind off this situation, as well as give those who don't agree with you on this issue, a reminder about the parts of your character that we do like.

[BillyTheMountain]

Sec. 274. [8 U.S.C. 1324]
(http://www.uscis.gov/propub/template.htm?view=document&doc_action=sethitdoc&doc_hit=1&doc_searchcontext=jump&s_context=jump&s_action=newSearch&s_method=applyFilter&s_fieldSearch=nxthomecollectionid|SLB&s_fieldSearch=foliodestination|ACT274&s_type=all&hash=0-0-0-245)
SS. a.1.A.iii:
Any person who [is] knowing or [is] in reckless disregard of the fact that an alien has come to, entered, or remains in the United States in violation of law, conceals, harbors, or shields from detection, or attempts to conceal, harbor, or shield from detection, such alien in any place, including any building or any means of transportation...

Just failing to report one does not equal harboring or shielding from detection.

[uni57]

You need some people at work (the higher ranking, the better) to vouch for your outstanding character. That, coupled with the letter, should quiet things down.

I think the more face-to-face contact you have with the upset people, the better. Show them you are a fallible human, but you are not a racist. The more you are around them, the more they will see you as a person. Without contact, the idea of you as Supreme Racist of the Universe can fester and grow in their mind. If they just see you, they will think, "there he is -- that son-of-a-*****". However, if you talk to them earnestly, not out of concern for yourself, but for them, I think you can get through to them.

Get your manager to call a meeting with everyone involved to talk about the issue. Invite another manager -- someone who knows you personally. The managers can be the voices of reason to the offended people. They can point out that there has never been any evidence of racism in the past. And they can also remind the offended people that there have always been good working relations in the past.

They shouldn't gang up on the offended people. And nobody should defend what you did. They should simply defend your character. There's a difference between a racist and being a person who didn't think clearly for a moment (maybe you were focused on the "bring the troops home" part -- especially as the father of kids nearing draft age). Everybody makes mistakes.

This meeting of three on three would show that everyone involved is concerned about the issue and wants to hear the concerns of the offended people. The agenda of the meeting cannot be to stifle those concerns, but simply to give a voice to those people, to let you speak, and to inject reason into their thinking. And also to learn the true motives of the offended people. Do they think they can get some money out of this somehow? Why are they blowing this out of proportion?

That being said, I wonder if you should seek professional advice? Does your company have an employee assistance program? On of those third-party companies you can call anonymously for advice regarding any issue in life?

I hope this blows over. I can't believe this is happening to YOU. Our beloved Yoopers. If I feel that way, barely knowing you via the forums, then the people at the office MUST know what a good person you are.

The people initially became offended because they found the joke offensive. Then, they concluded that you are a racist. And THAT'S what this is about now. It's no longer about the joke. It's about Bruce, the closet racist. This is what you have to show them is not true (while admitting your mistake). You don't even have to say that you found the "joke" funny. Maybe it was thought-provoking or interesting in some way. Mildly amusing, in a thought-provoking way. Or that its twisted logic was amusing. As long as it's close to the truth. And let them know that Mexico NEVER entered your mind (you somehow thought abstractly about illegal aliens -- hey, you were overworked and busy and tired). Also, tell them about your MULTIPLE trips to Mexico, and how beautiful the people are and that you hope to take your family there some day. You are a racist? Hardly! (and if you speak any Spanish, now's the time to use it, LOL)

You are in my thoughts (but not my prayers -- hey, I'm an atheist, remember?). You are one of the good guys. Curiously, it was already bothering me that several people were giving you a hard time in a few threads in JC lately. Now this! Good luck. I hope something in my ramblings was valid and contributes in some small way to a good outcome.

[BillyTheMountain]

George Carlin's Solution to Save Gasoline

Bush wants us to cut the amount of gas we use. The best way to stop using so
much gas is to deport 11 million illegal immigrants! That would
be 11 million less people using our gas. The price of gas would come down.

Bring our troops home from Iraq to guard the border. When they catch an
illegal immigrant crossing the border, hand him a canteen, rifle and some
ammo and ship him to Iraq. Tell him if he wants to come to America then he
must serve a tour in the military. Give him a soldier's pay while he's there
and tax him on it.

After his tour, he will be allowed to become a citizen since he defended
this country. He will also be registered to be taxed and be a legal patriot.
This option will probably deter illegal immigration and provide a solution
for the troops in Iraq and the aliens trying to make a better life for
themselves. If they refuse to serve, ship them to Iraq anyway, without the
canteen, rifle or ammo.

I'm a white American and I find that joke offensive. Why because it's layered with ignorance.

Illegal immigration seems to be another issue you are willfully ignorant on.

Mainly that many undocumented workers do pay taxes, either through an EIN or a fake SSN. Having paid taxes while they live here helps their case in future citizenship possibilities.

Also the U.S. Military does recruit in Mexico and offers a possibility of citizenship after their term of service. They are given no guarantee though when they get back they will be granted the opportunity to become citizens.

Actually, many soldiers fighting for the USA are from other nations, and they get US citizenship if they die in Iraq.

Obviously, the USA could not do business without illegals, they couldn't fight this war without American criminals and law abiding citizens from other nations.

George Carlin knows this. That's what makes the joke funny. "If they refuse to serve, ship them to Iraq anyway, without the canteen, rifle or ammo." :D

The ignorant Texas rodeo audience cheers when Borat announces: George Bush will drink the blood of every man, woman and child living in Iraq. Not even a lizard will live in the desert of Iraq for 100 years after the USA wipes Iraq off the face of the Earth.

The comedian is in on the joke, and realizes illegal immigrants have nothing to do with the price of gas in the USA. They don't tend to own vehicles, and are less likely to own SUVs and other fuel inefficient global warming machines. That's partly what makes it funny--it's absurd!! But comedy like that is also offensive to some people. Whether or not I was white, I get offended by terms like "honky" "Cracker" etc.

People from New York, New Jersey and California are hip and culturally sensitive, but we know the news hasn't reached the netherworld of Maine and Texas. Most employers have conducted cultural sensitivity training as well as cautioned employees on problems caused by internet misuse.

Lots of things like this are really no big deal, like crossing a border, until someone makes a big deal about it. Heck, under Carter 40 USA states had decriminalized marijuana, then someone made a big deal about it and filled the prisons. Not inherently wrong, until they make a rule against it, and add consequences.

You can drive 200 MPH on the German Autobahn, but they're thinking of putting in a speed limit, because when you drive that fast, you're global warming. Then suddenly it will be wrong to drive that fast.

[Geeta]

If it was anywhere else and I was in any other position, I would be the one now demanding an apology.

I just hope you're kidding.

[BillyTheMountain]

...
But then when things settled down, we'd have a country full of people more inclined to not do illegal things.

Yes! Can you imagine where we'd be if George Washington, Thomas Jefferson and the rest were inclined not to do REALLY illegal things....

We'd still being paying taxes to Britain and bowing to the Queen!

[TheObieOne3226]

You seem to have somehow opened a pandora's box. I'm still lost as to how, but definitely cover your ass and allow the company to do the same, and then never mention it again.

Other then that, I can't believe people are seriously debating the ethics of not turning someone in for being an alien or doing drugs. The correct answer is to never turn anyone in for something as common as either unless it affects you in some way. I know about 6 mexicans who are more than likely illegally in this country. They work a painting crew that my old boss subbed out to (they do great work. my boss is in no danger, because the boss of that crew is a citizen). As much as I would have liked for a couple of my buddies to get a one of their jobs, I would never ever consider turning them in, because I don't have the right to get them deported and would feel extremely rotten if I later discovered they were. Turning someone in for drugs is against a completely different set of laws that applies everywhere except the inside of a courtroom. Some of the arguments in this thread baffle me as far as how shielded some of you are from real life.

[TheObieOne3226]

Shall we start here (http://www.unicyclist.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58300)?


Don't take that the wrong way -- I think you are stating a fact, not necessarily whether you agree with it. Are we really required to play part-time cop?



bahahahahahaha I guess I am taking it the wrong way, but if you went up to a cop and said, "I met some guy online and I think he is smoking WEED" the cop would wait until you left and then gather everyone in the precinct of the street for a laugh.

[uni57]

bahahahahahaha I guess I am taking it the wrong way, but if you went up to a cop and said, "I met some guy online and I think he is smoking WEED" the cop would wait until you left and then gather everyone in the precinct of the street for a laugh.LOL, that's a funny picture!

I think maestro8 was saying that (technically) we are legally obligated to report any criminal activity that we are aware of. My post was questioning whether that's actually correct and also pointing out the absurdity of such a thing (regarding common things like smoking marijuana or not reporting a fifty dollar lottery winning).

[john_childs]

You seem to have somehow opened a pandora's box.
You might say he's grabbed a tar baby. ;)

John McCain has himself in some hot water right now due to an innocent tar baby comment (http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&ie=UTF-8&q=tar-baby&btnG=Search) at a town hall meeting.

We live in a world where people can take comments in multiple different ways. Sometimes as innocent and other times as insulting whether you intended it that way or not. And that's what Uncle Remus said. There could be a parable in there.

[tumblebug rollin]

I lived in Mexico in the late 70's as a student. Initially, until I got a metric ton of papework done, I was an illegal alien living in Mexico. As such I was generally without rights under Mexican law. When I got the last of the paper done and was there legally I was generally without rghts under Mexican law.
On the whole the Mexican people are probably the most gracious I have ever had the privelage of associating with. Most of their jokes are the same racially tainted jokes I heard growing up in Arkansas and Mississippi in the
50's and 60's onley the butt of the joke is either a gringo or an indian.
It's surprising how often the same jokes when translated essentally verbatum will work. Anyway, the point of the jokes was not to offend and I and other Americans in my circle chose not to be offended. We and the Mexicans telling the jokes got on splendidly, 'never thought much about it.
The situation here is somewhat different at this time. Illegals are fiercely comptititve in the job market, and it's not just farm labour. Mexican contractors can undercut "gringos" and the whole situation becomes tragic when it's your job at risk. ask anyone in the building trades. It's not just the illegals that are a problem. I have a friend who works on a catfish farm and has a supervisory role over some Mexican guys who are here legally. He has limited formal education and makes approximatily $7.00 per hour and pays income taxes, SSI etc. The Mexicans get $8.45 an hour. Due to the legal arrangement under which they are protected by our government, as guest workers. They do not pay SSI or income taxes to the state or fedral government as their tax responsibility is to the government of Mexico. Mexico has no way of knowing what they make and unless things have changed in recent years has no law requiring a Mexican citizen to tell the government what he make. He just declares how much tax he owes.
Effectively these guys, all of whome are great guys by the way, take home about twice what my buddy does. This whole diatribe is about the hopelessly inadequate nature of the government which we pay to look after US, THE CITRIZENS OF AMERICA.
I wonder why I don't feel anyone in DC is looking after me, or anybody elce with citizenship.

[TheObieOne3226]

John McCain has himself in some hot water right now due to an innocent tar baby comment (http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&ie=UTF-8&q=tar-baby&btnG=Search) at a town hall meeting.



Yoop just tell him you pulled a McCain or perhaps a Scot Pollard. (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2799905)

[yoopers]

Yoop just tell him you pulled a McCain or perhaps a Scot Pollard. (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2799905)
Looks like we've all been there, done that, eh? Good idea.
You are one of the good guys. Curiously, it was already bothering me that several people were giving you a hard time in a few threads in JC lately. Now this! Good luck. I hope something in my ramblings was valid and contributes in some small way to a good outcome.
Thanks, Dave. I sure do appreciate your nice words. As for the recent forum stuff, I asked for that. For this subject, it was totally unexpected and still blows me away that it had to be interpreted in such a way. But that's life and I'll live with it.
(and if you speak any Spanish, now's the time to use it, LOL)
Yo quiero Taco Bell
Surely your company must have some sort of policy against this sort of email being passed around on company time?
Looks like Mac was on to something. There will be a new policy starting this next week. Take a wild guess what it is...

[BillyTheMountain]

Anyway, the point of the jokes was not to offend and I and other Americans in my circle chose not to be offended. We and the Mexicans telling the jokes got on splendidly.

The point of good jokes is not to offend but to make us laugh.

The fact that they offend is usually just an unintended effect.

[tumblebug rollin]

Unfortunately, it seems a lot of people now do "choose' to be offended by anything of a racial or ethnic nature whereas in the early twentieth century Blacks, Jews, Irish, Germans, Italians etc. capitalized on ethnic humor.
It is interesting that now, in the iterest of political rectitued, we are not permitted to look at ourselves or others under the microscope of humor for fear of someone choosing to be offended.
I wonder when we will be forbidden to laugh, at or about anything, for fear public censure.
Is not the ability to not take ourselves so seriously a measure of our maturity as a society??

[BillyTheMountain]

Unfortunately, it seems a lot of people now do "choose' to be offended by anything of a racial or ethnic nature whereas in the early twentieth century Blacks, Jews, Irish, Germans, Italians etc. capitalized on ethnic humor.

That was the century those groups were heavily discriminated against. Blacks and Jews were routinely killed and the killers never punished.

Of course, Carlin was laughing at those who discriminate against, not the discriminated. But that's subtle humor, designed to correct an injustice.

[uni57]

I just thought of something...

Is there such a thing as a legal alien? If not, then illegal alien is redundant. Tell me the answer and I'll give you a free gift.

This post is not meant to offend the sensitive illegal aliens residing in the USA, whether they are from our nice neighbors to the south or elsewhere.

[ThisGuyIKnow]

I just thought of something...

Is there such a thing as a legal alien? If not, then illegal alien is redundant. Tell me the answer and I'll give you a free gift.


A Legal Alien is more often referred to as a Permanent Resident. Some on a green card who doesn't have citizenship but have a permit to work live and work in the country is a legal alien.

[Jethro]

^Or a protected resident--someone who is here to escape war in their home country. The US government grants a "temporary protected status" for people in war torn countries.

[monkeyman]

Yoop just tell him you pulled a McCain or perhaps a Scot Pollard. (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2799905)

Surprisingly, no one's mentioned Kerry's big mess-up.

Bruce, I can't say much more than Dave already did, and if I could, it wouldn't sound near as good. Just know that I'm one more person who supports you in all this. Good luck with this fiasco...hopefully, it'll blow over, and things will go back to normal.

-A

[TheObieOne3226]

A Legal Alien is more often referred to as a Permanent Resident. Some on a green card who doesn't have citizenship but have a permit to work live and work in the country is a legal alien.


My grandmother has been a permanent resident for 48 years. She passed the citizenship exam but decided to retain her British citizenship. I would hate to see her shipped off to Iraq. :eek:

[Brian MacKenzie]

Looks like Mac was on to something.


Apology accepted ;)

On a more serious note...it's not whether or not you intend to offend anyone, it's the fact that there seems to be a growing number of people who actively seek out 'trying to be' offended, of feel that they should be offended on someone else's behalf.

[john_childs]

Apology accepted ;)

On a more serious note...it's not whether or not you intend to offend anyone, it's the fact that there seems to be a growing number of people who actively seek out 'trying to be' offended, of feel that they should be offended on someone else's behalf.
And some people, like me, find that hyper-sensitivity or faux-sensitivity to be offensive because it sidetracks legitimate discussion of important issues (like illegal immigration). You can't win. ;)

You have to be careful about discussing illegal immigration issues cause you can find yourself being labeled as a hater or a racist.

[johnfoss]

There will be a new policy starting this next week. Take a wild guess what it is... Probably something that's already available in generic employee handbooks you can order from the state (any state) under the email section. The bigger your company, the more trouble you can get into with such things as there are just more people to potentially get offended and say something about it.

One of the two owners of the company where I used to work would often send out "questionable" jokes (guaranteed offensive to some) and links. He didn't send them to "all," but it was a small company. When I mentioned this to Jacquie, who has many times the # of employees my company had, she was amazed and cautioned that he could get into big trouble if someone chose to do something about it.

Somebody mentioned how we can no longer make fun of people "by group." This isn't true at all, but our world of litigation has made it clear that there are some places where it can be a really bad idea to do so. In a comedy club, after work, out with friends, fine. At work, using the company email system, not fine.

If your coworkers know you half as well as we do, you have nothing to worry about. Something happened, people realized there was a potential problem, and a policy was circulated to prevent it from happening more. End of story. :)

BTW - another type of "legal alien" is someone who has applied for citizenship and is working here legally. The process takes years. We had at least one person at my old company in this process, an art expert from Romania. Most of these "legal" aliens, because they're following all the rules, have much less sympathy for illegals than the rest of us.

[BillyTheMountain]

BTW - another type of "legal alien" is someone who has applied for citizenship and is working here legally. The process takes years. We had at least one person at my old company in this process, an art expert from Romania. Most of these "legal" aliens, because they're following all the rules, have much less sympathy for illegals than the rest of us.

Sympathy. Sympathy. Sympathy. Sympathy. Sympathy. Sympathy. Sympathy. Sympathy. Sympathy. Sympathy. Sympathy. Sympathy. Sympathy. Sympathy. Sympathy. Sympathy. Sympathy.....

I think we need more sympathy, for everyone, even if we follow the rules.

[GILD]

Should I let you all know what happens next week?
Please do.
This is becoming like our very own soap-opera.
And like all other soap-operas, I constantly wish that it will 'just go away'.

[Borges]

I constantly wish that it will 'just go away'.
There are buttons you can use to avoid unwanted soaps.

(Those quotation marks make me uneasy. I'm missing some reference to something.)

[GILD]

No, no arcane reference in there, I just wish most soap operas to go away (and turning off the telly just isn't enough, I want them to GO AWAY) just as I want this nonsense in Bruce's world to go away.
Don't these people have ethanol to make?

[yoopers]

Don't these people have ethanol to make?
I call it moonshine. It's more fun!

[bugman]

If an undocumented person is working in this country on the books taxes are being withheld from his paycheck. If he is working under the table, the business or individual who he is working for cannot legally deduct these wages for tax purposes and therefor the money that is being paid out is coming out of the profits of the company. The company profits are going to be taxed at a much higher rate than the wages of someone making less than minimum wage. So even if the person isn't paying taxes directly, taxes are being paid on behalf of their working in this country. That is of course unless the company is cheating on their taxes which is probably the case, but the worker can't really be blamed for the company breaking the law.

Again your willful ignorance of the subject you should be ashamed of.

Corporations(Companies) don't pay taxes. Employees, stockholders, customers do. All taxes are passed on essentially to the customer.

[bugman]

Wow, I just finished this thread. Bruce it is a shame that thing have come to the point that they have. Good luck today. When did it become a crime to offend someone? When did it become a constitutional right to not be offended? It is time to swing the pendelum back the other direction.

[yoopers]

Our staff met today and discussed this and more about the whole issue. We all agree on two unfortunate things, that 1) it has to be handled under the company harassment policy, which speaks of coming against protected groups of people. Illegal immigrants are by no means a protected group of people and it’s an insult to consider them so. But there is no other way we found to address the issue. And 2) it’s very unnecessary, frustrating, irritating, and all the other appropriate terms that it had to come to this point at all.

So here’s what’s happening. My letter of apology text is below. I’ll print out three copies, personally sign them, seal them in envelopes, and have their boss hand deliver the envelopes to the affected employees.

***************************

On Thursday, March 15, I circulated a “joke” through inter-office email that touched on the subject of illegal immigration. I will immediately say that the “joke” did not indicate any particular nationality and had absolutely no malice or other intentions behind it other than an attempt to be humorous. Unfortunately and to my despair, in our day and age I understand how easily such words or subjects can quickly point to a specific people, a phenomenon that I immaturely did not anticipate at the beginning of this incident.

I hold fast to and stand upon the Christian faith in my life. I am not racist by any means. I have been to Mexico several times and find the country, the people and the culture beautiful and would love to return someday. I have Hispanic people in my immediate family, a niece and nephew from Guatemala who are a joy to us and whom we love dearly.

To my deep regret, I now know that several employees in our company were offended by the “joke”. As it hurts me to know that I caused such an offence to my co-workers and my friends, to that end I profoundly apologize and ask for your forgiveness. I can also truly say that I have learned an insightful lesson from an incident that will not be repeated.

Finally, I encourage us all as a family of employees to now quickly move beyond this issue and rebuild the trust and relationships necessary to focus our attention back on the outstanding work we are accomplishing at IRE.

[GILD]

And may that be the end of that.

[TheObieOne3226]

Smartly worded. You give a sincere and humbling apology. At the same time your letter shows that you are an intelligent person who is simply capable of making mistakes in judgment from time to time. I would feel pretty ridiculous getting a letter like that even if I was truly offended.

[bugman]

Their probably atheists, and the fact that you would mention CHristianity in a letter to them will offend them further. Harrasment my ass. Everything is harrasment nowdays.

[ThisGuyIKnow]

I find the apology kind of insulting. It really fails to grasp why the first email was offensive in the first place.

[bugman]

I find the apology kind of insulting. It really fails to grasp why the first email was offensive in the first place.

Who cares. :rolleyes: It's kind of like me calling you a bitch, then saying I'm sorry you are such a bitch.

[yoopers]

I find the apology kind of insulting. It really fails to grasp why the first email was offensive in the first place.
It is indeed insulting. There is so much that I want to say and that needs to be said, but it has to be let go. I have to be completely humble in the letter and accept all fault regardless how irritated the whole issue makes me.

But we'll get through it and move on. Sure is a nice day today. Think I'll go for a walk out in the plant to see the sights.

[Blegas78]

Their probably atheists, and the fact that you would mention CHristianity in a letter to them will offend them further.

Nah, if they're from Mexico, then they're probably catholic.

[MrBoogiejuice]

Catholicism being a sect of which religion?

[mscalisi]

I believe your intention in this apology to be sincere, however I would modify it. When you say "I will immediately say that the “joke” did not indicate any particular nationality", it sounds like you're saying "I didn't do anything wrong, but here's my apology anyway" From reading this thread, that sounds like how you really feel, however it detracts from the sincerety of the apology.

Consider this. Although Mexicans are not named in the joke, nearly everybody who reads it (even if you didn't) is immediately going to think "illegal Mexicans"

I would change this sentence of the apology to something along the lines of "I didn't intend for the joke to target any particular nationality but now realize how it could be interpreted that way"





***************************

On Thursday, March 15, I circulated a “joke” through inter-office email that touched on the subject of illegal immigration. I will immediately say that the “joke” did not indicate any particular nationality and had absolutely no malice or other intentions behind it other than an attempt to be humorous. Unfortunately and to my despair, in our day and age I understand how easily such words or subjects can quickly point to a specific people, a phenomenon that I immaturely did not anticipate at the beginning of this incident.

I hold fast to and stand upon the Christian faith in my life. I am not racist by any means. I have been to Mexico several times and find the country, the people and the culture beautiful and would love to return someday. I have Hispanic people in my immediate family, a niece and nephew from Guatemala who are a joy to us and whom we love dearly.

To my deep regret, I now know that several employees in our company were offended by the “joke”. As it hurts me to know that I caused such an offence to my co-workers and my friends, to that end I profoundly apologize and ask for your forgiveness. I can also truly say that I have learned an insightful lesson from an incident that will not be repeated.

Finally, I encourage us all as a family of employees to now quickly move beyond this issue and rebuild the trust and relationships necessary to focus our attention back on the outstanding work we are accomplishing at IRE.

[johnfoss]

I find the apology kind of insulting. It really fails to grasp why the first email was offensive in the first place.
It doesn't need to. Anyone who was offended already knows why, and everyone else doesn't really need to know. The important part of the message should be that he had no intention to offended, is sorry it happened, and is on board with a policy to avoid this type of "accident" happening in the future.

No need to edit, though the mention of religion does actually probably press on one of the other points in your new set of "communication guidelines." :)

[BillyTheMountain]

You're in a difficult position. You're feeling like you need to counterfeit himself and become a fraud. Like this apology is like eating sh*t, it leaves a bad taste in your mouth, for something you don't truly want to apologize for.

I like the paragraph devoted to saying: Some of my best friends are Hispanic. I'm also glad you don't try to distance yourself from the KKK and other Christian terrorist groups (like the ones who kicked all the Jews and Muslims out of Europe or forced them to convert.)

Good luck!

[johnfoss]

Actually if you're still at a point where you can consider edits, all I would do is make it a lot shorter. When saying you're sorry it's usually much more effective not to go into detail because the details can get annoying again.

But I think it's already written and posted, so no worries...

[wickedbob]

Actually if you're still at a point where you can consider edits, all I would do is make it a lot shorter. When saying you're sorry it's usually much more effective not to go into detail because the details can get annoying again.

But I think it's already written and posted, so no worries...

+1 perfect

[BillyTheMountain]

My pal Bert, from Chicago, wrote a letter to the "Chicago Sun-Times" about immigration. The "Sun-Times" is one of two large circulation dailies in this town, and it has taken a very hard line stand against "illegal immigrants." He is pissed off, so wrote the following letter, which has no chance of being published there.

"Dear Madam or Sir:

It has been reported that as many as 12 million people who are not
citizens of this country and do not have proper documentation as
immigrants are, nevertheless, living in this country. Many people, to
judge by the coverage in the "Sun-Times," have voiced their anger and
frustration at the failure of our officials to enforce our
immigration laws and deport immigrants without documents.

If people are really so upset, I propose that they move from this
country to one that has a better record of enforcing its immigration
laws. I suggest France or Mexico might be good choices. People who do
not understand that expelling people from this country because they
were not born here violates the fundamental values that set this
country apart (whatever foolish laws its governments may enact from
time to time) are not really needed here. Frankly, I am sick of their
whining.

They, not the immigrants, should leave."

Love,
Bert

[Goats_On_Unicycles]

Pretty sweet! Tell him that I love him!!

A friend/teacher of mine has a cartoon in his office showing a fat white dude pointing at some Mexican cats, and he says;
"It's time to reclaim America from the illegal immigrants!!"

And there's an Indian dude standing next to him and he says;
"I'll help you pack."

[Mikefule]

I read it carefully and didn't find a joke. I found a racist right wing tract thinly disguised with a veneer of clumsy irony.

I make jokes that involve race, religion and politics. It is a big part of the British sense of humour, and sometimes I go very close to the line, so I'm not being po-faced when I say that wasn't a joke. I mean it. It's the sort of rubbish my brother used to come out with when he was an active member of the BNP.

Maybe your work colleague over-reacted. Maybe she's sick of hearing immigrant jokes. It's like being a unicyclist being sick of hearing missing wheel jokes.

Drop it.