who pays for missin hiker searches

[Brian MacKenzie]

some guys go climbing up a mountain in a snowstorm, and then get lost/injured.

who pays for the recovery of these hikers, search and rescue equipment and all that stuff

the hikers should be sent the bill

[saskatchewanian]

some guys go climbing up a mountain in a snowstorm, and then get lost/injured.

who pays for the recovery of these hikers, search and rescue equipment and all that stuff

the hikers should be sent the bill


Last summer I took a search and rescue plane to find some canoeists I was supposed to pick up, we played the pilot $200

I think that the RCMP will not get involved until someone is missing for at least 24 hours. Once they are involved it is taxpayer dollars paying for the search.

Nobody plans to get lost. If the hikers were prepared when they went into the wilderness they should not have to pay for a rescue just like if a car you should not have to pay for the hospital stay hits you.

If you believe that the person who is lost needs to pay for the costs of search and rescue should Canada change over to an American style healthcare system, have only toll roads and private schools?

[Brian MacKenzie]

should Canada change over to an American style healthcare system

I feel strongly that it should

[Borgschulze]

I feel strongly that it should
I don't.

Lots of people can't afford health care. I'm not talking about foreigners either.

I know I would seriously consider moving to Europe if Canada was any more American.

[UniBrier]

Interesting question.

Mount Hood in Oregon gets its share of rescues. Just another one today. Last December three climbers died and prompted this article (http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=2720158&page=1). The quote below is from Park City Utah where outdoor recreation is crucial to their economy, while another county in Utah has elected to charge.

"We're a nonprofit organization," said Sgt. Steve Stokes of the Summit County Sheriff's Department in Park City, Utah. "There's a huge controversy over whether we should charge for our services, and so far, we've elected not to do so." Summit County is home to several ski resorts and stays busy searching for and rescuing lost skiers, snowmobilers, mountain climbers and hikers every year. Last year the department had 52 "activations" of its 10-man search-and-rescue team.

"The problem with charging is, where do you draw the line?" said Stokes. "Who decides what was a legitimate accident versus someone who foolishly puts himself in harm's way?" Summit County, which depends on outdoor recreation and tourism, has elected to absorb the costs, which means taxpayers ultimately foot the bill.

Not so in Grand County, in southern Utah. This past year the county adopted legislation that allows the Sheriff's Department to charge those who become stranded or lost.


A little closer to home, Mount Baker has a popular back country ski/board area that is accessed from the controlled ski area. They have specific back country rules (http://mtbaker.us/policies/backcountry.html) and They will charge (http://mtbaker.us/policies/index.html):

b) There is a minimum $500 rescue fee for any rescue in an Extreme Danger Zone, Hazard Advisory, Cliff, Closed or Backcountry areas.

[one wheely]

Last week a thrill seeker jumped off a cliff into the ocean and then got washed into a cave. He was stuck there overnight and had to be searched for and rescued by helicopter. The bill was $10k and is payed for by taxes.
He was arrested for being a public nuisance.

[john_childs]

Some states in the US do have laws allowing them to charge for search and rescue. I'm not sure if Washington state in one of those.

The problem with charging for the search and rescue though is that it can dissuade people from contacting authorities when they first suspect they may be lost. Instead they'll hang on and try to save themselves rather than risk a $10,000+ bill for rescue.

But then again, a risk of being financially liable might be what is needed to get people to be more prepared before heading out in to situations where they might need a search and rescue if there was an accident.

For the most part I believe that the search and rescue costs should be covered by the state and local government and supplemented by user fees (trailhead fees, Forest Service fees, snow park fees, etc.). The financial risk for the person being rescued should be limited to possible reasonable fines if they were negligent. But what defines negligence? Is it negligence to go unicycling in the backcountry? That sounds like a risky activity for those who don't know better. Kind of unsettling if the state can start placing limits on what is acceptable risk and if deskbound paper pushers get to define acceptable risk for those who recreate in the outdoors.

[kington99]

What about people in car crashes, should they pay to have their car removed, the mess cleared up, to compensate the people stuck in traffic jams because of thier accident? Just like mountaineering, driving has risks, and accidents happen to even the most prepared and cautious.

I agree that maybe fining people who are negligent might be a good idea, negligence is hard to define, but simple things like do they have spare warm clothing? do they have spare food? have they told someone what their route is and when they expect to be back? have they got suitable navigation equipment? might all be used as rules of thumb that wouldn't work against people in to more unusal activities (like unicycling).

[Brian MacKenzie]

But what defines negligence?

Any thing that requires helicopters and SAR teams that have to risk their own lives and spend thousands of dollars in equipment and operating costs to come get you for something you decided to go do to hvae some fun sounds like a good indicator


(it was mount hood that prompted the question)

[Brian MacKenzie]

What about people in car crashes, should they pay to have their car removed, the mess cleared up,

Yes (if negligent or drunk) otherwise, I geuss that's what taxes do

I know someone who hit a telephone pole and knocked it down and was sent a $1600 bill

[kington99]

Any thing that requires helicopters and SAR teams that have to risk their own lives and spend thousands of dollars in equipment and operating costs to come get you for something you decided to go do to hvae some fun sounds like a good indicator


But that could happen on any moutain, the best trained, most experienced, best equipped and most cautious mountaineer can still trip and break his leg. You're saying that every moutaineer, skiier, sailer or whatever else is negligent regardless of how within their abilities they are, or how well prepared, just the act of placing themselves somewhere which is hard to rescue them from counts as negligent in your book. If i believed that I would have to cease all my serious Muni riding.

[Brian MacKenzie]

But that could happen on any moutain, the best trained, most experienced, best equipped and most cautious mountaineer can still trip and break his leg.

I'm saying that I don't see why anyone but the thrillseeker themselves should be responsible.

[saskatchewanian]

brian can i ask you a question: what do YOU do for fun?

edit: do you do anything in remote locations?

[Brian MacKenzie]

brian can i ask you a question: what do YOU do for fun?

If my unicycling caused me to to require medical evacuation, or search and rescue teams dispatched, I should be sent a bill.

However, I take very little risks while unicycling. If I might get seriously hurt from a messed up lined, I skip that line. (One of my favourite parts of being in my 30's)

[saskatchewanian]

but do you do much in remote locations? corect me if im wrong but london ontario is not near any vast areas of wilderness where something like a large scale search is likely to ocurr

[Brian MacKenzie]

but do you do much in remote locations? corect me if im wrong but london ontario is not near any vast areas of wilderness where something like a large scale search is likely to ocurr


Nothing 'too' remote. Are you suggesting that because you are bored with where you live, and feel the need to go out into the wilderness to pass time by doing dangerous things in the wilderness, knowing full well that you might need to be evacuated and still go out and do it, I should somehow pay for that? Someone has to pay for these things, and it should be you.

[kington99]

The thing is, in the UK because of the NHS I pay for treatment of people who choose to smoke, or have poor diet, take drugs or drink too much. In return they pay for me to be rescued for remote mountain top locations (it's never happened but it's possible that it might) or even for my ambluance if I break my leg on the local BMX track.

And surely any road riding, particularly through New York traffic could get you seriously hurt?

[saskatchewanian]

its not nessisarily becouse i am bored with where i live but where i live in the first place. for the past 13 years during the summer i have lived in the cub hills region of saskatchewan if i decided to walk a strait line going north i would have reached russia before crossing a road. i enjoy snowmobieling. i alwase tell people where i am going becouse we do not have marked trails in the north! am i being negligent for going snowmobieling where i live instead of loading the sled on a trailer driving a couple hours south and then ride in less intresting terain? in the summer one of my favorite things to do is canoe. i have lead groups on canoe trips on our expansive lake and river systems. my taxes pay for things that will never benifit the people who live up north just like your taxes pay for services that you will most likey never require. most people who have had search crews go out to find them were prepared for what they were dooing and told someone where they were going otherwise nobody would have sent a search crew in the first place and that person or group of people would have died.

edit: search and rescue may be free but an air ambulance ride is not neither is it cheep

[Brian MacKenzie]

And surely any road riding, particularly through New York traffic could get you seriously hurt?

and I should be held responsible for that if I were to get hurt or cause an accident or something.

[Brian MacKenzie]

am i being negligent for going snowmobieling where i live

snowmobiling on unmarked trails in the great white north? you tell me

[saskatchewanian]

Rural Saskatchewan obviously has a very different culture than metropolitan Ontario. As there are so many more of you guys, you must be right, thats how democracy works.

[ivan]

Rural Saskatchewan obviously has a very different culture than metropolitan Ontario. As there are so many more of you guys, you must be right, thats how democracy works.
+1

[Brian MacKenzie]

Rural Saskatchewan obviously has a very different culture than metropolitan Ontario. As there are so many more of you guys, you must be right, thats how democracy works.

Now you're talkin

[BillyTheMountain]

If my unicycling caused me to to require medical evacuation, or search and rescue teams dispatched, I should be sent a bill.

However, I take very little risks while unicycling. If I might get seriously hurt from a messed up lined, I skip that line. (One of my favourite parts of being in my 30's)

You can buy medical evacuation insurance to cover the costs.

As for the search, I didn't order the search. Maybe whoever ordered the search should pay for it.

:D

[Wheel Rider]

I have heard that if you want to climb Mt. McKinley (Denali) in Alaska, you have to pay a substantial deposit before you start, just in case you have to be rescued. I think this money goes to the National Park Service.

The NSP people were risking their lives rescuing a lot of people who were not properly trained or equiped to attempt such a dangerous climb. The climbers would go because they felt the could get rescued if they had problems.

[Wheel Rider]

I did some research about climbing Denali. There is a registration fee but it is insignificant compared to the cost of a rescue mission. Following is a statement from the National Park Service registration form for climbing the mountain. This was taken from the NPS website.

WR

==========================================
"Denali National Park and Preserve recognizes that a certain number of park visitors each year will become ill, injured, or incapacitated in some way. It is the policy of Denali National Park and Preserve to assist those in need, when, in the opinion of the park personnel appraised of the situation, it is necessary, appropriate, within the reasonable skill and technical capability of park personnel, and provides searchers and rescuers with a reasonable margin of safety."
"Search and Rescue operations are conducted on a discretionary basis. The level and exigency of the response is determined by field personnel based on their evaluation of the situation. Rescue is not automatic. Denali National Park and Preserve expects park users to exhibit a degree of self-reliance and responsibility for their own safety commensurate with the degree of difficulty of the activities they undertake."
"In the event you are rescued (aerial evacuation or ground rescue) while climbing in Denali National Park and Preserve, you may be obligated to pay for air or ground ambulance costs. If you are rescued your permit will be voided."
=================================

[BillyTheMountain]

If you are rescued your permit will be voided."


That's just WRONG!!!

[Brian MacKenzie]

I watched on CNN.. (yes, it's 'our' news too!)

Those climbers were rescued so quick...and therefore at all...because they had radio transmitters on. That same newscast mentioned how some climbers feel manditory tracking devices like that 'take the thrill away'


Why rescue idiots?

[headstone]

I'm guessing you've been fairly well off your whole life?

Just guessing.

[headstone]

And if you really care where your precious tax dollar goes, check this out:

http://www.fin.gc.ca/taxdollar/text/html/pamphlet_e.html

Notice how "rescuing mountaineering idiots who are far inferior to Brian MacKenzie" isn't on the list.

[Brian MacKenzie]

I'm guessing you've been fairly well off your whole life?

Just guessing.

please tell me you aren't referring to me somehow (I was simply stating that idiots shouldn't be rescued...sasketchewanian made it somthing about democracy...for some reason)

[BillyTheMountain]

And if you really care where your precious tax dollar goes, check this out:

http://www.fin.gc.ca/taxdollar/text/html/pamphlet_e.html

Notice how "rescuing mountaineering idiots who are far inferior to Brian MacKenzie" isn't on the list.

Like Gilby says, your precious tax $$ are going into the pockets of the very wealthy, funneled thru the military industrial complex and the war built on lies.

[monkeyman]

If you are rescued your permit will be voided.

And if not...well, I guess it doesn't really matter much.

[saskatchewanian]

[QUOTE=sasketchewanian made it somthing about democracy...for some reason)[/QUOTE]

I made the reference to democracy to show how the views of people who are actually affected by different laws are overpowered by those who believe something just because they feel that they are right without knowing the facts themselves, it is people like you that made it possible to pass Bill C68. The people of Quebec and Ontario tend to make decisions for the rest of the country.

[Brian MacKenzie]

I made the reference to democracy to show how the views of people who are actually affected by different laws are overpowered


I wasn't refering to "I" as an Ontarion, I was referring to "I" as someone who doesn't go out and go looking for trouble and expecting the government or someone else to come rescue me should something go wrong.

Should your Saskachewonian neighbours who aren't out playing in the wilderness be responsible for you irresponsible actions (providing you were someone who's need for adventure got them in need of help out in the wilderness, I never suggsted you would...you did) got them into trouble and needed organizations to be called to action to go find some 'adventure seeker'?

[saskatchewanian]

What I am saying is that people who are not affected by something should not be the ones making the decisions for those who are, right now in Saskatchewan the government is looking at ending work periods of more than 5 days in northern communities without overtime. How the typical rotation works in Northern Saskatchewan is that a worker is in for ten days out for 4 or in for 2 weeks and out for one. All workers interviewed from northern communities were against the proposed changes as the current system results in less travel time and longer breaks between stints at work. If employers are forced to pay overtime to workers that stay at the job for more than five days they will have the workers go home one day then back to work the next to save on overtime. These short breaks will cause the workers to spend the majority of their “break” traveling either to or from their work place. Everyone was happy with how things are but an MLA from Regina decided that it is not humane to work more than 5 days in a row, a prime example of people making decisions for other people without knowing all the facts.

[Brian MacKenzie]

What I am saying is that people who are not affected by something should not be the ones making the decisions for those who are

But should they be paying for the consequences of those people, concequences that came not out of necestiy, but the 'thrill of adventure'?

(the question's original context)

[saskatchewanian]

OK I thought that my views were relatively clear, if you are negligent in your planning you are very unlikely to get rescued and therefore will not be able to pay for the rescue effort, if you are prepared and take reasonable precautions then you should not need to pay for a search and rescue operation because the events that led up to you needing help were most likely unforeseeable, therefore it is not truly your fault. Nobody plans on getting injured or lost and therefore nobody is planning on taking advantage of the system (which is what you seem so scared of). I do not believe that people who are rescued by a search and rescue team they should not have to pay for that service but the medical charges for EMS should come out of the pockets of the rescuee just like anyone else who needs an ambulance.

[Brian MacKenzie]

OK I thought that my views were relatively clear, if you are negligent in your planning you are very unlikely to get rescued and therefore will not be able to pay for the rescue effort, if you are prepared and take reasonable precautions then you should not need to pay for a search and rescue operation because the events that led up to you needing help were most likely unforeseeable, therefore it is not truly your fault. Nobody plans on getting injured or lost and therefore nobody is planning on taking advantage of the system (which is what you seem so scared of). I do not believe that people who are rescued by a search and rescue team they should not have to pay for that service but the medical charges for EMS should come out of the pockets of the rescuee just like anyone else who needs an ambulance.


Man, you damn Sasketchewanians..... ;)

[Borgschulze]

Brian, hurry up and release that DVD and stop bitching in this thread.

Sincerely, Dan.

All clear? :cool:

[Brian MacKenzie]

Brian, hurry up and release that DVD and stop bitching in this thread.

Sincerely, Dan.

All clear? :cool:

that's more irresponsible than that time i fed my mogwai after midnight

[spyder]

However, I take very little risks while unicycling. If I might get seriously hurt from a messed up lined, I skip that line. (One of my favourite parts of being in my 30's)

Fortunately, on his 30th birthday, this injury did not require SAR, of EMS.
18014
18015[

[Brian MacKenzie]

Fortunately, on his 30th birthday, this injury did not require


Fortunately, on my last day of being 29, as this happened before midnight, I was in a facility that had an ems on staff that my rental feels were paying for.

[Mikefule]

In the UK, mountain rescue is done by volunteers, and on a charitable basis. And most responsible hillwalkers and climbers will contribute towards the charity.

A person who is hillwalking or mountainbiking is not sitting at home becoming obese, developing heart disease etc. A person mountainbiking in the great outdoors is probably not the sort of person who hangs around on street corners smashing bus stops, mugging pensioners, or taking drugs.

My taxes go towards paying the Benefits claimed by druggies, vandals and criminals. My taxes go towards their health care when they are injured or become ill through lack of exercise, poor diet, smoking and drug and alcohol abuse. My taxes go towards the cost of the police force that tries to apprehend them. My taxes go towards the cost of the courts that convict them. If they are convicted, then my taxes pay for their accommodation, lighting and food. Then when they come out of prison, my taxes pay for the probation service and social services generally as they try to prevent them reoffending. And in the meantime, part of my earnings goes on insurance to protect me from the consequences of crime.

So, frankly, if one of those druggies, vandals or criminals gave up drugs, vandalism and crime and decided to go mountaineering, it would be far far cheaper, even if I had to pay for him to be rescued now and again.

[Brian MacKenzie]

A person mountainbiking in the great outdoors is probably not taking drugs



you're probably right

[BillyTheMountain]

My taxes go towards paying the Benefits claimed by druggies, vandals and criminals. My taxes go towards their health care when they are injured or become ill through lack of exercise, poor diet, smoking and drug and alcohol abuse. My taxes go towards the cost of the police force that tries to apprehend them. My taxes go towards the cost of the courts that convict them.

Look at your nations budget, and if you can see through it, you'll see that MOST of your taxes go to the CEOs of multinational corporations.

should we start another thread with this question:

How about the risk takers who never leave home, rarely exercise, eat and drink to obesity, and possibly even smoke--risking lung disease and heart problems.

Who should pay when they need to be rescued?

Who should pay for their ambulance?