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BluntRM
2006-11-13, 03:23 AM
Here it is:

Fossil fuel is derived from an animal substance. Is it "vegan" to use these products?

zfreak220
2006-11-13, 03:23 AM
that is a good question...we should see an increase in vegan unicyclists soon.

Goats_On_Unicycles
2006-11-13, 03:28 AM
Hmmmmmm... I don't know. I'm not a "real" vegan. I just don't eat meat or use animal products that come from factory farms or other horrible places like that. But considering that a whole lotta vegans consider honey farming exploiting bees...

BluntRM
2006-11-13, 03:32 AM
Does it matter that they're already extinct?

BluntRM
2006-11-13, 03:37 AM
What would Alec Baldwin say.....? (http://www.goveg.com/factoryFarming.asp)

Goats_On_Unicycles
2006-11-13, 03:46 AM
Does it matter that they're already extinct?
I dunno... The only problem I have with it is the harm that fossil fuels do to living things.

James_Potter
2006-11-13, 03:50 AM
Thats interesting, I donno. I'm vegetarian and would be vegan if, you know, pretty much EVERYTHING didn't have some sort of dairy in it.
Anyway, I don't think that fossil fuels count, because it has nothing to do with cruelty to animals...you're not exploiting animal rights by using it. So no animals are being harmed.
That's my take on it.

BluntRM
2006-11-13, 04:14 AM
Thats interesting, I donno. I'm vegetarian and would be vegan if, you know, pretty much EVERYTHING didn't have some sort of dairy in it.
Anyway, I don't think that fossil fuels count, because it has nothing to do with cruelty to animals...you're not exploiting animal rights by using it. So no animals are being harmed.
That's my take on it.

So you're giving me a definition of veganism based on animal cruelty and exploitation: Is it possible to retrieve any other animal products that meet that criteria, besides fossil fuels?

*I'm also a vegetarian, but I think veganism can be outlandish.

Goats_On_Unicycles
2006-11-13, 04:26 AM
So you're giving me a definition of veganism based on animal cruelty and exploitation: Is it possible to retrieve any other animal products that meet that criteria, besides fossil fuels?

*I'm also a vegetarian, but I think veganism can be outlandish.
I would say...... Yes. But if a cow dies and you don't really know what it died of you prolly wouldn't think "Oh, yummy!"...

Catboy
2006-11-13, 06:46 AM
You aren't eating it, so it's still vegan.

I'm a level-5 vegan, I don't eat anything with a shadow...

tobbogonist
2006-11-13, 06:49 AM
i tried being a vegan for about 1 month, i got hungry.


i am vegeterian when it is possible but my parents dont really support it.
i do enjoy the odd sausage though. God am i that bad a person??

ivan
2006-11-13, 06:52 AM
I was a vegetarian for a whole year. Then stopped.

toddw9
2006-11-13, 08:14 AM
I met a guy who was a vegan just because he preferred the diet. No other reason. Had nothing to do with animal cruelty or anything like that.

kington99
2006-11-13, 11:26 AM
You aren't eating it, so it's still vegan.

I'm a level-5 vegan, I don't eat anything with a shadow...

So can vegans wear leather shoes and a nice fur coat? I don't think that's how most vegans see it.

Thanks for the quote Jessy Grass.

JJuggle
2006-11-13, 04:36 PM
Given the nature of the ecosystem isn't all food likely to be dependent on an animal product, either through the death of an animal and it's reabsorption into the earth or the direct use of animal waste which likely implies animal exploitation, for fertilizer.

I'm a vegetarian. I know that the fact that I'm not a vegan means I am supporting the exploitation of animals to a greater extent than if I were; and believe me I hear it everyday from my kid who wont eat honey, by the way.

onewheelinwierdo
2006-11-13, 04:44 PM
Quote from a Beef for dinner ad:
"We love vegetarians, More beef for us!"
Mmmm, Beef!

phlegm
2006-11-13, 06:18 PM
What about exploitation of the human animal?

If I were a vegan, would it be ethical for me to buy vegetables that were harvested by someone paid much less than me?

mscalisi
2006-11-13, 06:32 PM
There is no such thing as a "true vegan". It's simply not possible to live in a modern consumeristic society and have your participation in such a society not affect non-human life forms.

..but to answer your question more directly, I don't think it's inherently non-vegan to use fossil fuels.

Think of this: plants grow in the dirt, and the dirt is composed to decomposed life forms (plant AND animal). Fossil fuels aren't much different that this.

However: considering that automobile and bicycle tires contain stearic acid, which is made from animal fat, and even the asphalt on our roadways contains a binding agent derived from the fat of beef cattle, even unicycling could not be considered vegan.

Of course, all this is to get far away from the whole spirit of veganism which is to not participate in things that exploit animals. From my perspective, the best that can be done is to minimize our use of animal products. The "true vegan" simply does not exist.


Here it is:

Fossil fuel is derived from an animal substance. Is it "vegan" to use these products?

BluntRM
2006-11-13, 06:35 PM
What about exploitation of the human animal?

If I were a vegan, would it be ethical for me to buy vegetables that were harvested by someone paid much less than me?

And for that matter sweatshop clothing, diamonds, or any of the bastard industries.

BluntRM
2006-11-13, 06:35 PM
Re-post:
Is it better to buy organic food that will likely travel a longer distance to your market or to buy local food that's grown with chemical enhancement?

BluntRM
2006-11-13, 06:37 PM
There is no such thing as a "true vegan". It's simply not possible to live in a modern consumeristic society and have your participation in such a society not affect non-human life forms.

..but to answer your question more directly, I don't think it's inherently non-vegan to use fossil fuels.

Think of this: plants grow in the dirt, and the dirt is composed to decomposed life forms (plant AND animal). Fossil fuels aren't much different that this.

However: considering that automobile and bicycle tires contain stearic acid, which is made from animal fat, and even the asphalt on our roadways contains a binding agent derived from the fat of beef cattle, even unicycling could not be considered vegan.

Of course, all this is to get far away from the whole spirit of veganism which is to not participate in things that exploit animals. From my perspective, the best that can be done is to minimize our use of animal products. The "true vegan" simply does not exist.

Are you a Vegan/Vegetarian?

mscalisi
2006-11-13, 06:38 PM
However unethical it is to exploit the human animal, I believe the definition of veganism excludes people.

That being said, I think it's misguided and hipocritical to be vegan and not take into account environmental and human rights issues when buying anything.

This brings us issues of: Should I buy fair trade OR organic coffee? Should I buy organic apples, OR locally grown apples? Should I buy leather shoes (non-vegan) OR buy shoes made from petroleum by-products (bad for the environment, and won't last as long).

...this is a complicated world we live in.

What about exploitation of the human animal?

If I were a vegan, would it be ethical for me to buy vegetables that were harvested by someone paid much less than me?

mscalisi
2006-11-13, 06:40 PM
I consider myself vegan-ish.

Are you a Vegan/Vegetarian?

onewheelinwierdo
2006-11-13, 06:58 PM
Ok, Ok this whole argumen is stupid. no matter what we do, some animal gets hurt.

ntappin
2006-11-13, 10:51 PM
Re-post:
Is it better to buy organic food that will likely travel a longer distance to your market or to buy local food that's grown with chemical enhancement?

Another thing to be considered in this that many people don't consider is what their local government considers to be organic. Organic and free range or untreated products are very ill defined. In many areas they just have to be chemical free for a certain amount of time. Meaning they could still be treated.

Lets not forget too the recent influx (is that the right word here?) of organic products that have been killing and paralyzing people.

treepotato
2006-11-13, 10:55 PM
I am Vegan and i think James Potter put it pretty well


Anyway, I don't think that fossil fuels count, because it has nothing to do with cruelty to animals...you're not exploiting animal rights by using it. So no animals are being harmed.
That's my take on it.

UniBrier
2006-11-13, 11:09 PM
I don't eat anything with a shadow...Does that mean you only eat roots and bulbs or is it that you only hunt after dark and/or on overcast days?

bcwheelriderguyhehehehehe
2006-11-13, 11:26 PM
mmm carrots and potatoes^^^:p

monkeyman
2006-11-14, 02:02 AM
I believe the definition of veganism excludes people.
Those poor vegan cannibals.

Ok, Ok this whole argumen is stupid. no matter what we do, some animal gets hurt.

So basically, we shouldn't have police because there will always be crime?

podzol
2006-11-14, 03:07 AM
Fossil fuels are just about 99.9999999% residual plant matter.

They are probably have a higher percentage vegetable origin than a green pepper from your garden.

bcwheelriderguyhehehehehe
2006-11-14, 04:50 AM
I actually heard that too^^ but vegans don't don't want to eat fossil fuel thay use it. Hey that reminds me, there is a chick at my school who brags about being vegan and then the other day she was bragging about here "authentic" leather shoes. hmmmm women:rolleyes:

siafirede
2006-11-14, 08:08 AM
Here it is:

Fossil fuel is derived from an animal substance. Is it "vegan" to use these products?

Yes, of course it is.

bugman
2006-11-14, 03:37 PM
Another thing to be considered in this that many people don't consider is what their local government considers to be organic. Organic and free range or untreated products are very ill defined. In many areas they just have to be chemical free for a certain amount of time. Meaning they could still be treated.

Lets not forget too the recent influx (is that the right word here?) of organic products that have been killing and paralyzing people.

How can anything including vegtables be "Chemical Free"? Do vegtables contain water? H2O, Carbon etc... Vegtables are chemicals and also include a variety of naturally occuring carcinogens and pesticides.

bugman
2006-11-14, 03:42 PM
Fossil fuels are just about 99.9999999% residual plant matter.

They are probably have a higher percentage vegetable origin than a green pepper from your garden.

No fair, you quite that line of work.;)

koebwil
2006-11-14, 04:03 PM
So basically, we shouldn't have police because there will always be crime?
Great point. It's about Idealism, not realism. In my ideal world animals would not be harmed. In an attempt to make this world a better place I do my best to not hurt animals. By the way I am full blown vegan. Non-leather shoes and guitar straps and all that.

BluntRM
2006-11-14, 10:14 PM
However unethical it is to exploit the human animal, I believe the definition of veganism excludes people.

That being said, I think it's misguided and hipocritical to be vegan and not take into account environmental and human rights issues when buying anything.


Absolutely. Ethical solidarity is larger than food politics.

BluntRM
2006-11-14, 10:22 PM
Another Vegan question:

As a Vegan, would you feed your pet (dog/cat/alligator/whatever) pet food that contains meat products, raw hide bones, etc.? Does your ethical stance on food trump your pets natural diet?

Isn't pet ownership bourgeois? Can a vegan "own" a pet?

Goats_On_Unicycles
2006-11-14, 11:17 PM
My goats don't eat meat... I wouldn't call it non-vegan to have a pet... But I don't know...

DK
2006-11-15, 12:11 AM
Another Vegan question:

As a Vegan, would you feed your pet (dog/cat/alligator/whatever) pet food that contains meat products, raw hide bones, etc.? Does your ethical stance on food trump your pets natural diet?

Isn't pet ownership bourgeois? Can a vegan "own" a pet?

If I had a job/werent 15/ could afford it, id feed my dog vegetarian dog food. Other animals , like cats, cannot survive healthily on a vegan or vegetarian diet. So, where possible, I think pet food should be veg, not because I think they shouldnt eat animals; but because of factory farming.


We are responsible for the domestication of animals, so it is our responsibility to care for them. A domesticated dog cant really hunt and survive in the woods on their own, as they should be able. We have to take care of them. Most pets are ethical, and "vegan" as long as they are domesticated and neutered if possbile. Things like primates, most fish, exotic pets, birds, etc. arent "vegan."

kington99
2006-11-15, 12:43 AM
Most pets are ethical, and "vegan" as long as they are domesticated and neutered if possbile. Things like primates, most fish, exotic pets, birds, etc. arent "vegan."

Why the distinction by the type of animal? And why does neutering a pet make it vegan? Surely physically mutilating an animal just so you don't have to worry about it breeding is about as un-vegan as it comes?

BillyTheMountain
2006-11-15, 01:12 AM
Why the distinction by the type of animal? And why does neutering a pet make it vegan? Surely physically mutilating an animal just so you don't have to worry about it breeding is about as un-vegan as it comes?

Dogs are neutered mainly so they don't becoem aggressive.

This thread should be Vegan Only. Others Need Not Post.

ntappin
2006-11-15, 01:19 AM
Dogs are neutered mainly so they don't becoem aggressive.

This thread should be Vegan Only. Others Need Not Post.

Alright then until my next meal I am a vegan!

DK
2006-11-15, 01:22 AM
Why the distinction by the type of animal? And why does neutering a pet make it vegan? Surely physically mutilating an animal just so you don't have to worry about it breeding is about as un-vegan as it comes?

DDifferentiating between species is key. Theres adifference bewteen having a domesticated cat inside 95% of its life and keeping a bird in a cage, when in their natural habitat, the living area would be thousands of time the size.


Neutering insures the pet will not breed, which creates MORE domesticated dogs, many of whom will die in shelters on on the streets. The pains after surgery outweigh the outcomes, which could be death, overpopulation, and the continuation of domesticated animals.

koebwil
2006-11-15, 06:01 AM
Another Vegan question:

As a Vegan, would you feed your pet (dog/cat/alligator/whatever) pet food that contains meat products, raw hide bones, etc.? Does your ethical stance on food trump your pets natural diet?

Isn't pet ownership bourgeois? Can a vegan "own" a pet?
I would only get a pet from an animal shelter. I wouldn't neuter, and I would get a dog and feed it veges. It's like how I would never want to make a child. I would adopt.

dan de man
2006-11-15, 09:07 PM
I'm a level-5 vegan, I don't eat anything with a shadow...
have you tried pocket mulching yet?

spazdude222
2006-11-16, 12:45 AM
You aren't eating it, so it's still vegan.

I'm a level-5 vegan, I don't eat anything with a shadow...
i am a level 46 warrior...oh sorry...wrong game...

monkeyman
2006-11-16, 01:58 AM
DDifferentiating between species is key. Theres adifference bewteen having a domesticated cat inside 95% of its life and keeping a bird in a cage, when in their natural habitat, the living area would be thousands of time the size.

Neutering insures the pet will not breed, which creates MORE domesticated dogs, many of whom will die in shelters on on the streets. The pains after surgery outweigh the outcomes, which could be death, overpopulation, and the continuation of domesticated animals.

So we'd take the moral "high ground" by playing God, and taking away an animal's right to breed? Following your logic:
~Animal life and human life both have the same value
~It is ethical to neuter/spay animals so they won't breed and continue to overpopulate the Earth
=>It is morally right to force certain humans to be fixed

Serious question for all you vegan-types out there:
Why animals? If you can make animal life and human life have the same "value", why can't that be extended to plant life? Why is it morally "better" to uproot a living carrot, chop it up into little pieces, boil it, and eat it?

What authority makes a deer worth more than a carrot?

BluntRM
2006-11-16, 02:41 AM
So we'd take the moral "high ground" by playing God, and taking away an animal's right to breed? Following your logic:
~Animal life and human life both have the same value
~It is ethical to neuter/spay animals so they won't breed and continue to overpopulate the Earth
=>It is morally right to force certain humans to be fixed

Serious question for all you vegan-types out there:
Why animals? If you can make animal life and human life have the same "value", why can't that be extended to plant life? Why is it morally "better" to uproot a living carrot, chop it up into little pieces, boil it, and eat it?

What authority makes a deer worth more than a carrot?

I don't think that's a serious continuation of logic.

DK
2006-11-16, 02:42 AM
So we'd take the moral "high ground" by playing God, and taking away an animal's right to breed? Following your logic:
~Animal life and human life both have the same value
~It is ethical to neuter/spay animals so they won't breed and continue to overpopulate the Earth
=>It is morally right to force certain humans to be fixed

Serious question for all you vegan-types out there:
Why animals? If you can make animal life and human life have the same "value", why can't that be extended to plant life? Why is it morally "better" to uproot a living carrot, chop it up into little pieces, boil it, and eat it?

What authority makes a deer worth more than a carrot?


I dont know how you came to the conculsion that certain humans should be fixed. Now, say humans created a "new man" that was designed to be cost effective, exploioted, and wasnt able to take care of themselves. When it comes to the point that millions of these "new men" roam the streets looking for homes, die of starvation, disease, and from the elements, why shouldnt they be sterelized. Either you can give the thing a simple surgery, or risk it procrating and having all of its children die. I dont know, but i think "playing god" here is right, it saves lives without any real negative consequences.

---
Last time I checked, carrots didnt have emotion, felt pain, were cogitive beings, had a society and family, and means of communication.

monkeyman
2006-11-16, 02:49 AM
I dont know, but i think "playing god" here is right, it saves lives without any real negative consequences.
And the same logic could be applied to fixing people in Africa due to the high infant mortality rate, or to the overpopulation problem in China, etc.
We'd be saving lives if we went around preventing people from having kids.



Last time I checked, carrots didnt have emotion, felt pain, were cogitive beings, had a society and family, and means of communication.

So if the animal is mentally disabled, it's ok to kill and eat?

Beth
2006-11-16, 03:02 AM
So if the animal is mentally disabled, it's ok to kill and eat?

Probably most non-cannibals wouldn't eat a brain-dead baby.

tobbogonist
2006-11-16, 03:14 AM
i am a level 46 warrior...oh sorry...wrong game...

I'm a level 34 rouge (i think), if my account is still there.

I dont agree with eating anything that is young ie veal, lamb etc. or macdonalds/any other fast food outlet.

Brian O.
2006-11-16, 03:15 AM
i am a level 46 warrior...oh sorry...wrong game...

Bahahaha! Oh wow, that was both very upsetting and very amusing.

monkeyman
2006-11-16, 03:27 AM
Probably most non-cannibals wouldn't eat a brain-dead baby.

Er...did you mistype this? Non-cannibals wouldn't eat a baby at all...or any human. In the same way a non-carnivore wouldn't eat meat. Or a non-herbivore wouldn't eat plants.

DK
2006-11-16, 03:29 AM
And the same logic could be applied to fixing people in Africa due to the high infant mortality rate, or to the overpopulation problem in China, etc.
We'd be saving lives if we went around preventing people from having kids.




So if the animal is mentally disabled, it's ok to kill and eat?


Hopefully those people can be conciousness enough to make those decisions themsleves. I dont think humans should be unwillingly sterelized, but it would be a good thing.


---------


No, with animal welfare aside, eating flesh and meat and arteries and all that fun stuff is disgusting. Its also pretty unhealthy. On top of that, being a primary level consumer uses many less resources than being a tertiary or secondary consumer, because the higer in the food chain you are, the less the amount of original energy is consumed from your prey.

monkeyman
2006-11-16, 03:41 AM
Hopefully those people can be conciousness enough to make those decisions themsleves. I dont think humans should be unwillingly sterelized, but it would be a good thing.
But isn't one of the main vegan tenets "preventing animal suffering"?
We've kind of gotten off subject though...basically, I'm just pointing out what I see as a double standard. If you want to make animals and humans equal, then the same sets of morals would have to apply to both

No, with animal welfare aside, eating flesh and meat and arteries and all that fun stuff is disgusting.
I'll use my own judgement on this. Thanks.
Its also pretty unhealthy.
Nature must have really messed up with that whole "evolution" thing.
But lets not get into that debate

On top of that, being a primary level consumer uses many less resources than being a tertiary or secondary consumer, because the higer in the food chain you are, the less the amount of original energy is consumed from your prey.

Which is why there are less humans than everything else.

Beth
2006-11-16, 03:42 AM
Er...did you mistype this? Non-cannibals wouldn't eat a baby at all...or any human. In the same way a non-carnivore wouldn't eat meat. Or a non-herbivore wouldn't eat plants.

I meant that our reasons for not eating babies might be that they have the potential to become intelligent, feel pain, etc. But we wouldn't eat any babies that fell outside that category. So vegans don't have to eat animals that are as stupid as carrots. The whole ethics of eating different categories of things isn't really a logical issue I don't think, just an emotive one.

Don't know if anyone already posted something about this, and it's changing the subject a bit, but what does everyone think of lab-grown meat? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4148164.stm
You can grow it from your own cells if you don't want to use animal cells. In theory.

I'd try it, but I don't think I actually like meat any more, the idea of eating muscle and fat and all that becomes disgusting when you haven't eaten it for ages.

I'm not vegan but it's inconsistent of me not to be.

DK
2006-11-16, 03:56 AM
But isn't one of the main vegan tenets "preventing animal suffering"?
We've kind of gotten off subject though...basically, I'm just pointing out what I see as a double standard. If you want to make animals and humans equal, then the same sets of morals would have to apply to both



Nature must have really messed up with that whole "evolution" thing.
But lets not get into that debate


Theres no double standard because a dog doesnt or is incapible to think, "hmmm, maybe i shouldnt reproduce." Its instinct. One of the stongest ones. Humans on the other hand are able to resist sex and think more towards the future.


Evolution? We really arent evolved to be meat eaters. If were were, then wouldnt all the vegans and vegetarians be les healthy hthan someone who eats some meat for every meal? Our intestines, teeth, and boides are more like that of herbivores. The reason we can eat and digest meat is a awesoem servial mechanism. But just becuase we can do something, doesnt mean we should.

How about this? if we are evolved to eat meat, id like to see you eat raw flesh off animals for a week. Youd end up in the hospital. Unlike every other carnivore, we dont have claws or sharp teeth. We have larger saliva glands, which help break down carbs. We also lack the desire and want to eat whole animals, and are largely unable to kill our "prey" without tools.

BluntRM
2006-11-16, 04:20 AM
And the same logic could be applied to fixing people in Africa due to the high infant mortality rate, or to the overpopulation problem in China, etc.
We'd be saving lives if we went around preventing people from having kids.


Seriously kids,
condoms.
And you shouldn't be having sex that young...

BluntRM
2006-11-16, 04:28 AM
If you want to make animals and humans equal, then the same sets of morals would have to apply to both
.

People shouldn't be abused.
Cars shouldn't be abused.
Therefore cars and people are equal to each other.

Why does that connection make sense to you?

monkeyman
2006-11-16, 12:11 PM
People shouldn't be abused.
Cars shouldn't be abused.
Therefore cars and people are equal to each other.

Why does that connection make sense to you?

We're arguing in different directions. I'm saying that I have heard vegans say that animals are completely equal to humans, and that we are no better than them. Using that logic, reaching "animals and people should be treated completely equally" seems perfectly reasonable.

Seriously kids,
condoms.
And you shouldn't be having sex that young...

Well...ermm....DURH!!!! To both parts.


Theres no double standard because a dog doesnt or is incapible to think, "hmmm, maybe i shouldnt reproduce." Its instinct. One of the stongest ones. Humans on the other hand are able to resist sex and think more towards the future.

Haha, you'd think so.
But seriously, while that makes more sense, it's still a bit contradicting. If we are "better", in the sense that we can think towards the future, not act on pure instinct, etc., then humans and animals are not equal, and therefore I have no problem enjoying my steak dinner.

and are largely unable to kill our "prey" without tools.
Ok, and? We evolved to become intelligent enough to not need to kill animals with our hands. We learned how to use tools. Makes sense to me. The hunter with the bow is more likely to get his target than a predator who runs into a herd of animals scattering them all.

DK
2006-11-16, 02:13 PM
We're arguing in different directions. I'm saying that I have heard vegans say that animals are completely equal to humans, and that we are no better than them. Using that logic, reaching "animals and people should be treated completely equally" seems perfectly reasonable.



But seriously, while that makes more sense, it's still a bit contradicting. If we are "better", in the sense that we can think towards the future, not act on pure instinct, etc., then humans and animals are not equal, and therefore I have no problem enjoying my steak dinner.


Humans and other species are equal. Just because a dog might now have the same kind of intellegence or is unable to resist instict doesnt make them a lesser being. If someone scores lower on an IQ test than you, does that give you the right to say you are a superior being than them? Eat them? Does someone who gets all A's in school have the right to talk down to you or kill you? Other animals like apes, dolphins, some octipi exhibit extremely humaniod intellegence and communication.


In the end, we all have our opinions and they probably arent going to change.

BluntRM
2006-11-16, 03:21 PM
There's a qualitative difference between humans and other animals, and by that extension, an ethical difference, but to reitrerate: That difference is contextual; eating industrial animal products supports an abomination of the evolutionary process, we live in a state of hyper-production and consumption that in no way resembles a natural assemblage of forces-- slaughter and consumption on this scale is unprecedented. By contrast, meat consumption in Somalia is done under a completely different pretext and is linked much closer to nutrition and survival. Most Americans eat meat beyond their nutritional needs and it's in this excess that meat consumption becomes an act of cruelty.

The Vegan Hypothetical:
A trolley is traveling downhill without breaks. There is a lever -you have a choice- do you continue on the same track in which case the out-of-control trolley will certainly kill a person or do you pull the lever in which case it will certainly kill an animal.

The independent variable here is: What if pulling the lever would kill 10 animals and save 1 human life? What if pulling the lever would kill 100 animals and save 1 human life? At what point are humans and animals really "equal"?

How many animals would you kill to save a human life?

DK
2006-11-16, 10:17 PM
The Vegan Hypothetical:[/B]
A trolley is traveling downhill without breaks. There is a lever -you have a choice- do you continue on the same track in which case the out-of-control trolley will certainly kill a person or do you pull the lever in which case it will certainly kill an animal.

The independent variable here is: What if pulling the lever would kill 10 animals and save 1 human life? What if pulling the lever would kill 100 animals and save 1 human life? At what point are humans and animals really "equal"?

How many animals would you kill to save a human life?


That kind of situation is exremely unrealistic. BUT, if the animal that would be killed were a compainion of mine, Id save the animals's life. If it were a person that was my companion, I'd save the person. If it were an endangered species I'd save the animal. It all the depends on the (already outrageous) circumstances.

BluntRM
2006-11-16, 11:27 PM
That kind of situation is exremely unrealistic. BUT, if the animal that would be killed were a compainion of mine, Id save the animals's life. If it were a person that was my companion, I'd save the person. If it were an endangered species I'd save the animal. It all the depends on the (already outrageous) circumstances.

I know, it is an outlandish circumstance, but for our purposes...

More realistic terms might regard animal testing, but as you said there are a lot of circumstances to be created before an answer would reflect an accurate position.

Is there any form of animal testing that is justifiable?

spazdude222
2006-11-17, 12:03 AM
Theres no double standard because a dog doesnt or is incapible to think, "hmmm, maybe i shouldnt reproduce." Its instinct. One of the stongest ones. Humans on the other hand are able to resist sex and think more towards the future.


Evolution? We really arent evolved to be meat eaters. If were were, then wouldnt all the vegans and vegetarians be les healthy hthan someone who eats some meat for every meal? Our intestines, teeth, and boides are more like that of herbivores. The reason we can eat and digest meat is a awesoem servial mechanism. But just becuase we can do something, doesnt mean we should.

How about this? if we are evolved to eat meat, id like to see you eat raw flesh off animals for a week. Youd end up in the hospital. Unlike every other carnivore, we dont have claws or sharp teeth. We have larger saliva glands, which help break down carbs. We also lack the desire and want to eat whole animals, and are largely unable to kill our "prey" without tools.

It is a double standard...if a dog can't think that highly, what makes you think a cow can think, "Oh man, I hope they don't kill me for meat..." I mean, the argument you present here just shows that humans are higher than animals, therefore, we aren't equal to them. Now, animal torture is wrong, but the humane killing of animals for food is not wrong at all. And we did evolve to eat meat...and plants...we are what is called an "Omnivore" we eat both meat and plants. I would also like to point out Inuit peoples from way up north, they ate (and in many cases still do eat) raw meat and were fine. Plus, we have front teeth call "incisors" used for tearing and ripping...at lettuce? NO! At beef, pork, venison, chicken, etc. NOT TO MENTION, part of the vegan thing is NO ANIMAL PRODUCTS not just “no meat” (that’s called vegetarian), so what about eggs? We eat the UNFERTILIZED eggs, so there’s NO LOSS of animal life...is the egg going to cry? Does it care if it is eaten? Is it alive? The answer to all of these I believe would be no. So what’s the issue? I don't know...do you?

spazdude222
2006-11-17, 12:05 AM
Bahahaha! Oh wow, that was both very upsetting and very amusing.
lol, i was hoping someone would get a kick out of that...

spazdude222
2006-11-17, 12:17 AM
Humans and other species are equal. Just because a dog might now have the same kind of intellegence or is unable to resist instict doesnt make them a lesser being. If someone scores lower on an IQ test than you, does that give you the right to say you are a superior being than them? Eat them? Does someone who gets all A's in school have the right to talk down to you or kill you? Other animals like apes, dolphins, some octipi exhibit extremely humaniod intellegence and communication.


In the end, we all have our opinions and they probably arent going to change.
so plants are equal too! they have no intelligence, but they are alive! And protists, well, i geuss, add them to the list because they too are alive, and accually show signs of intelligence (meaning, manny protists will follow prey to consume it, that surely takes some sort of "brain" power). So i guess that includes bacteria. ATTENTION: it is now unethical to kill e-coli! So if you are infected, too bad! Antibiotics would be inhumane...(I know i have come across as a jerk, but my point is, there is a line, and it has to be drawn somewhere)

monkeyman
2006-11-17, 12:20 AM
In the end, we all have our opinions and they probably arent going to change.
As long as we can both agree that I am right and you are wrong, I'm fine with ending it.

yes, I am totally kidding.

spazdude222
2006-11-17, 12:23 AM
As long as we can both agree that I am right and you are wrong, I'm fine with ending it.

yes, I am totally kidding.
i'm not...ok, fine...i was kidding

DK
2006-11-17, 12:26 AM
Is there any form of animal testing that is justifiable?

I dont really think so... especially with modern science.

DK
2006-11-17, 12:30 AM
It is a double standard...if a dog can't think that highly, what makes you think a cow can think, "Oh man, I hope they don't kill me for meat..."

Theres a difference between thinking not to have sex and thinking youre going to get killed. Yell around a dog. stomp. act angry. My dog tucks its tail between its legs and hides. Cows want to survive. Cows want to have sex.

spazdude222
2006-11-17, 12:35 AM
Theres a difference between thinking not to have sex and thinking youre going to get killed. Yell around a dog. stomp. act angry. My dog tucks its tail between its legs and hides. Cows want to survive. Cows want to have sex.
Ok, i see your point, but may i point out, EVERYTHING THAT IS LIVING "wants" TO SURVIVE!!! plants included...read my post about drawing the line...
P.S. What about the egg question? you seem to be defending veganism from a vegitarian standpoint. (not that i think veganism is wrong...if you want to only eat and use non animal products, more power to you! i merely don't understand, and am trying to understand more clearly, your point of view.)

mscalisi
2006-11-17, 12:56 AM
Regarding the "humane killing of animals for food", it pretty much doesn't exist within our system. The vast majority of animals raised for meat are on factory farms, which treat animals in the least expensive fashion possible, which also tends to be the most cruel. The means to educate yourself about what really goes on exists, but most people prefer to remain ignorant.

Plants don't have nervous systems, and they don't have brains. They don't feel. They're plants. Of course they "want" to survive, but that mechanism develops because all the plants that didn't develop didn't survive.

People like to bring this "plants feel too" arguement in and pretend that it's valid. If you think your broccoli feels pain and fear just like your dog (or a cow or a pig...) than there's not much anyone can say to you because that's an arguement used purely for arguements sake. Many animals CLEARLY exhibit the same emotions people do. We like to call this "instinct" because we don't want to think of it as being the same thing we experience. This is particularly true if you're religious. (people have souls, animals do not)

...regarding the vegan vs. vegetarian thing. If you choose to not eat meat as a rejection to the systematic exploitation and torture of factory farmed animals, then you cannot pretend that that exploitation does not occur at the henhouse or dairy. In fact, veal is a direct byproduct of the dairy industry. Drinking milk and eating cheese encourages sticking baby cows into tiny pens where they cannot move for their entire short lives before they are slaughtered.


Regarding the teeth comment. We can chew cut and cooked meat. When as the last time you took down a live deer and ripped its raw flesh with your incisors? Clearly humans were not designed to do that except for maybe small animals.

...anyways, discussing the "naturality" of eating meat is a mere distraction from the bigger issue of whether or not factory farming is right. It is not.

People do not HAVE to eat meat. We do not need factory farms. At the very least, people should eat less meat, and have more respect for it.

It is a double standard...if a dog can't think that highly, what makes you think a cow can think, "Oh man, I hope they don't kill me for meat..." I mean, the argument you present here just shows that humans are higher than animals, therefore, we aren't equal to them. Now, animal torture is wrong, but the humane killing of animals for food is not wrong at all. And we did evolve to eat meat...and plants...we are what is called an "Omnivore" we eat both meat and plants. I would also like to point out Inuit peoples from way up north, they ate (and in many cases still do eat) raw meat and were fine. Plus, we have front teeth call "incisors" used for tearing and ripping...at lettuce? NO! At beef, pork, venison, chicken, etc. NOT TO MENTION, part of the vegan thing is NO ANIMAL PRODUCTS not just “no meat” (that’s called vegetarian), so what about eggs? We eat the UNFERTILIZED eggs, so there’s NO LOSS of animal life...is the egg going to cry? Does it care if it is eaten? Is it alive? The answer to all of these I believe would be no. So what’s the issue? I don't know...do you?

DK
2006-11-17, 01:01 AM
P.S. What about the egg question?

Factory farming, unhealthy, ethics of eating something that comes out another species reproduce system, and personally I dont like the texture/taste.

http://www.factoryfarming.com/gallery/hens7.jpg

spazdude222
2006-11-17, 01:14 AM
Regarding the teeth comment. We can chew cut and cooked meat. When as the last time you took down a live deer and ripped its raw flesh with your incisors? Clearly humans were not designed to do that except for maybe small animals.
Ok...so because my cat can't track down and kill anything but small animals...he isn't designed to eat meat...I'll have to talk to him about that...What "kind" of meat you are "designed" to eat has NOTHING to do with weather or not you were designed to eat it. Bugs are considered meat, so any animal classified as a carnivore because it eats only bugs, is NOT designed to eat meat...it hasn't "[taken] down a live deer and ripped its raw flesh with [its] incisors." If we were "designed" to not eat meat, why would we have enzymes in our stomachs that digest meats? Why would we have incisors at all? And as far as dairy farming goes, its cruel to leave a milk producing cow unmilked, that is painful for them to be all full of milk. And veal...well...its tasty...(i realize this argument is faulty...but veal is really tasty...seriously)

koebwil
2006-11-17, 01:25 AM
Regarding the "humane killing of animals for food", it pretty much doesn't exist within our system. The vast majority of animals raised for meat are on factory farms, which treat animals in the least expensive fashion possible, which also tends to be the most cruel. The means to educate yourself about what really goes on exists, but most people prefer to remain ignorant.

Plants don't have nervous systems, and they don't have brains. They don't feel. They're plants. Of course they "want" to survive, but that mechanism develops because all the plants that didn't develop didn't survive.

People like to bring this "plants feel too" arguement in and pretend that it's valid. If you think your broccoli feels pain and fear just like your dog (or a cow or a pig...) than there's not much anyone can say to you because that's an arguement used purely for arguements sake. Many animals CLEARLY exhibit the same emotions people do. We like to call this "instinct" because we don't want to think of it as being the same thing we experience. This is particularly true if you're religious. (people have souls, animals do not)

...regarding the vegan vs. vegetarian thing. If you choose to not eat meat as a rejection to the systematic exploitation and torture of factory farmed animals, then you cannot pretend that that exploitation does not occur at the henhouse or dairy. In fact, veal is a direct byproduct of the dairy industry. Drinking milk and eating cheese encourages sticking baby cows into tiny pens where they cannot move for their entire short lives before they are slaughtered.


Regarding the teeth comment. We can chew cut and cooked meat. When as the last time you took down a live deer and ripped its raw flesh with your incisors? Clearly humans were not designed to do that except for maybe small animals.

...anyways, discussing the "naturality" of eating meat is a mere distraction from the bigger issue of whether or not factory farming is right. It is not.

People do not HAVE to eat meat. We do not need factory farms. At the very least, people should eat less meat, and have more respect for it.
Can you adopt me. I don't take up much room, and I don't eat much.

Also are you vegan?

mscalisi
2006-11-17, 01:33 AM
I'll check with my girlfriend :-)

I am ....err...veganish. I used to be strict, but not so much anymore.

Can you adopt me. I don't take up much room, and I don't eat much.

Also are you vegan?

mscalisi
2006-11-17, 01:42 AM
My point, is that our teeth are at best omniverous. Your cat's teeth are designed to kill, yours, not so much.

..but again, so what. I'm not argueing that people can't eat meat, clearly we can, however we're clearly not carvivores.

Your argument regarding leaving a cow unmilked is invalid. The reason the cow has milk in the first place is that is was impregnated and gave birth to a calf. If it's baby wasn't taken from it, it would not be left "unmilked".

If you took a closer look at our food production system, you'd likely have a problem with it, but why would you do that when you enjoy veal so much? People tend to very conveniently be ignore-ant about the system that provides them with cleanly wrapped and cut meat in the refrigerator isle.

Ok...so because my cat can't track down and kill anything but small animals...he isn't designed to eat meat...I'll have to talk to him about that...What "kind" of meat you are "designed" to eat has NOTHING to do with weather or not you were designed to eat it. Bugs are considered meat, so any animal classified as a carnivore because it eats only bugs, is NOT designed to eat meat...it hasn't "[taken] down a live deer and ripped its raw flesh with [its] incisors." If we were "designed" to not eat meat, why would we have enzymes in our stomachs that digest meats? Why would we have incisors at all? And as far as dairy farming goes, its cruel to leave a milk producing cow unmilked, that is painful for them to be all full of milk. And veal...well...its tasty...(i realize this argument is faulty...but veal is really tasty...seriously)

BluntRM
2006-11-17, 01:59 AM
If we were "designed" to not eat meat, why would we have enzymes in our stomachs that digest meats? Why would we have incisors at all?


You don't have enzymes in the same capacity as a dedicated meat eater. Beef rots in your colon long after it's ingested: Carnivores have low occurences of heart disease, they digest meat quickly and don't absorb the cholesterol, their digestive tracts are shorter; humans digest meat slowly and absorb cholesterol in unhealthy amounts and, amongst Americans, heart disease is a leading cause of death (Cholesterol, arteries, and heart disease are of course correlated). This would indicate that there is a conflict with this design ("If god is fallible, I will kill him"). Evolution is an imperfect process.


And as far as dairy farming goes, its cruel to leave a milk producing cow unmilked, that is painful for them to be all full of milk.

That's why cows have calfs, seperated from their natural relations and suspended in a state of hormone manipulation, yes, it is cruel not to milk them.

BluntRM
2006-11-17, 02:03 AM
That kind of situation is exremely unrealistic. BUT, if the animal that would be killed were a compainion of mine, Id save the animals's life. If it were a person that was my companion, I'd save the person. If it were an endangered species I'd save the animal. It all the depends on the (already outrageous) circumstances.

I won't draw out the overly simplified hypothetical, but it seems that if someone else chose to save the life of their companion animal over the life of a human relation of yours, the ethical justification is an extreme form of egoism.

Beth
2006-11-17, 03:40 AM
I think probably most vegans value human life above animal life. I've found though that going on pro-animal-testing marches has actually made me far more uncertain about the ethics of putting people first at any cost, because most of the other people there were rather obnoxious about animal suffering and all making jokes of the "I'll eat 3" kind. That sort of behaviour always seems rather defensive to me, I think a visit to a factory farm would actually make most of them fairly uncomfortable. If we're going to use animals then at the very least I think it should be done in a humane way and not a gratuitous one.

(And I do think that humans are omnivorous naturally. Among many other things (like teeth), we can't manufacture vitamin B12 ourselves, and the only natural source is from meat. On the other hand the majority of our behaviour is 'unnatural,' living in the world we do, and vegetarians do live longer :P)

I think meat-eating can be defended morally. It does all depend upon what values you choose as your starting point, so discussion about veganism probably never leads anywhere really. But factory-farming gets a lot harder to justify. Still, though, the whole issue pales in comparison to the abuse of people that's going on around the world that's keeping the lucky few in cheap clothes and fossil fuels and toys.


"I'm against testing on animals. They get all nervous and give you the wrong answers." - [Stephen Fry]

mscalisi
2006-11-17, 04:30 AM
I've heard this said before, and it's generally said in a "choose your battles" sort of a way. While I generally agree with this statement, I strongly feel that you can choose to not abuse people AND not abuse animals. It's not as if you have to decide between human rights and animals rights. They're not at odds with each other (usually). In fact, I find that people who are sensitive to the injustices we inflict upon animals to be sensitive to human rights, fair trade, and environmental issues.

Still, though, the whole issue pales in comparison to the abuse of people that's going on around the world that's keeping the lucky few in cheap clothes and fossil fuels and toys.

koebwil
2006-11-17, 05:01 AM
I think probably most vegans value human life above animal life. I've found though that going on pro-animal-testing marches has actually made me far more uncertain about the ethics of putting people first at any cost, because most of the other people there were rather obnoxious about animal suffering and all making jokes of the "I'll eat 3" kind. That sort of behaviour always seems rather defensive to me, I think a visit to a factory farm would actually make most of them fairly uncomfortable. If we're going to use animals then at the very least I think it should be done in a humane way and not a gratuitous one.
Humor is often used by people to protect themselves from the truth.

henkka
2007-01-23, 08:06 PM
Like somebody have said "Vegans don't eat animals, they animals foods" :rolleyes: Yea, that was bit offtopic. Remember to eat enough protein. :)

dan de man
2007-01-23, 09:31 PM
[QUOTE]My point, is that our teeth are at best omniverous. Your cat's teeth are designed to kill, yours, not so much.[QUOTE]but we dont need to kill with our teeth , we have hands
the reason our teeth arnt desiagned to rip flesh of ,is because we became smart and developed tools

BillyTheMountain
2007-01-24, 02:50 AM
I won't draw out the overly simplified hypothetical, but it seems that if someone else chose to save the life of their companion animal over the life of a human relation of yours, the ethical justification is an extreme form of egoism.

You say that like it's the worst thing.....

Vegetarians have greater longevity.

Longevity ain't so bad.

treepotato
2007-01-24, 07:23 AM
i am vegan because i believe it is morally wrong to kil another living being, people always ask the question but why don't u eat milk? there are lots of justified reasons one being the fact that some cows are feed chemical stuff to increase there milk giving and those checmicals can caouse them to become to so full of milk that their udders sweel and it is v painful for them, another reason is the fact that when a dairy cow gives birth to a young bull then it is often regarded useless and killed at 4 or 6 months for veal meat. Then there is the question on eggs why don't vegans eat them? well its a protest again the horrific conditions of factory farming, hens crammed into cages barely big enough to breathe in and then there is the issue, similar to in the dairy industry where the male chick is useally 'not needed' and killed at birth, also when a hen stops producing enough eggs to fill the farmers quota then (be it battery, barn or 'organic free range') the hen is killed coz its not producing enough. There are millions of other reasons but these are just a few. leather, well that is pretty much self evident, i really don't want to be wearing the skin of a dead animal, how would u like it if yr dog was wearing a coat out of human skin?


i do not want to be part of inhumane slaughter and i believe no living thing has the right to kill another, i want to be able to look at an animal and think i don't eat u or any of yr family. I believe in peace and to be a vegan (or 2 so extent a vege) is to be at peace with nature and her kin.

i don't care if those who oppose these views think this sounds stupid, this is my belif and the belief of other many other vegans all around the world.

peace x

kington99
2007-01-24, 09:42 AM
i believe no living thing has the right to kill another

To elaborate, do you believe that carnivorous animals morally should let themselves starve to death rather than hunt?

treepotato
2007-01-24, 05:24 PM
To elaborate, do you believe that carnivorous animals morally should let themselves starve to death rather than hunt?

ok maybe i should have phrased it differently don't pick my words apart : P

swarbrim
2007-01-24, 05:56 PM
why don't u eat milk? there are lots of justified reasons one being the fact that some cows are feed chemical stuff to increase there milk giving and those checmicals can caouse them to become to so full of milk that their udders sweel and it is v painful for them

Would you drink milk if you knew that it came from a reliable source, maybe a local farm shop that you know doesn't do anything with chemicals or the like?

Mike

forrestunifreak
2007-01-24, 06:17 PM
i believe no living thing has the right to kill another, i want to be able to look at an animal and think i don't eat u or any of yr family.

Oh good, you don't believe in evolution then right?

uni_jim
2007-01-24, 06:19 PM
People are ment to eat meat in conjunction with plants. Cheeses and eggs are part of many animals diets. Part of why people can live in as many places as we can is because of the many types of food that we can eat. Oh, my chicken is done!

koebwil
2007-01-24, 06:20 PM
Would you drink milk if you knew that it came from a reliable source, maybe a local farm shop that you know doesn't do anything with chemicals or the like?

Mike
They still steal the cow's milk. That milk is intended for its calf that has been taken away to either be made into veal or turned into the next generation of milk giving cows.

underdog
2007-01-24, 06:22 PM
So, could I interest any of you in a beautiful, custom leather unicycle saddle?

koebwil
2007-01-24, 06:26 PM
So, could I interest any of you in a beautiful, custom leather unicycle saddle?
not at all

kington99
2007-01-24, 08:41 PM
Cheeses and eggs are part of many animals diets.


Wo cheeses? Where would an animal get cheese from?

BluntRM
2007-01-24, 08:47 PM
I bought "veggie" cheese at the store and it listed milk as an ingredient??

kington99
2007-01-24, 08:59 PM
I bought "veggie" cheese at the store and it listed milk as an ingredient??

Well it's 'veggie' not vegan so surely that's fine? Presumably it's not made with cow fat or whatever it is they add to normal cheese.

treepotato
2007-01-24, 10:02 PM
Would you drink milk if you knew that it came from a reliable source, maybe a local farm shop that you know doesn't do anything with chemicals or the like?

Mike

No, when i vowed 2 be vegan it was a life promise

excaliber906
2007-01-24, 10:14 PM
Why won't some vegans eat honey?

dudewithasock
2007-01-24, 10:15 PM
/yawn

koebwil
2007-01-24, 11:14 PM
Why won't some vegans eat honey?
All real vegans don't eat honey because the bees are being exploited.

mscalisi
2007-01-24, 11:44 PM
Casein, which is derived from milk, used in a number of soy, rice, and nut "cheeses" because it improves the cheese meltability.

There's some pretty negative things about it on Wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casein


I bought "veggie" cheese at the store and it listed milk as an ingredient??

JJuggle
2007-01-24, 11:49 PM
All real vegans don't eat honey because the bees are being exploited.
Please explain why my child wont exploit bees but is more than happy to exploit her parents? :)

koebwil
2007-01-24, 11:53 PM
Please explain why my child wont exploit bees but is more than happy to exploit her parents? :)
Sorry, but that seems like a personal issue. I'd rather distance myself from that train wreck.

forrestunifreak
2007-01-25, 12:43 AM
All real vegans don't eat honey because the bees are being exploited.

Aww, poor widdle bees. :(

monkeyman
2007-01-25, 01:17 AM
Mmm, pork. Yummy.

I feel really bad though...I'm eating some apples too...somewhere out there, I took away an apple tree's opportunity to be a parent. I'm eating its kids. I must have no soul.

dudewithasock
2007-01-25, 01:50 AM
YOU'RE A MONSTER!

I bet you love thick, juicy slabs of meat dripping with special sauce.

koebwil
2007-01-25, 02:16 AM
YOU'RE A MONSTER!

I bet you love thick, juicy tubes of meat dripping with special sauce.
Sorry, but I saw the opening and I had to take it.

Bottle
2007-01-25, 02:16 AM
lol...vegan :D

Not to be offensive or anything, but we were born omnivores. Feel your canine teeth, you think those were made to eat plants?

And millions of animals are killed during harvests every year.

forrestunifreak
2007-01-25, 02:17 AM
This picture just cracks me up.

DK
2007-01-25, 02:22 AM
OH, OH, Im SO OFFENDED!

James_Potter
2007-01-25, 02:24 AM
That's a goodun q-:
I like this one particularly, though I'm sure it's been posted in this thread before:
http://marsupialmusic.net/stu/img/bigpot6.jpg

forrestunifreak
2007-01-25, 02:43 AM
Yeah I've seen that one, it's funny how the animals in the pot are ones people don't normally eat...



This picture just cracks me up.

Man. The guy on the left... haha. I can't get over it.

dudewithasock
2007-01-25, 02:54 AM
Sorry, but I saw the opening and I had to take it.

...that was my joke in my post. It's gotta be subtle. Yours was too obvious.

koebwil
2007-01-25, 04:51 AM
Well yours was too subtle I thought it was unintentional

onetrack
2007-01-25, 01:30 PM
Why won't some vegans eat honey?

only because you asked. I'm not one to try and lure people into living by my morals and convictions. Who am I to say I have everything right?

Bees need the honey they make more than I need a sweetener for my tea.

Farmed bees are fed sugar syrup, and pollin substitutes to replace they honey they would have eaten, which lowers the hive's longevity. Queens are slaughtered at 1/3 their normal lifespan. "swarming" a natural bee reproductive behaviour is prevented with artificial pheremones and by clipping the queen's wings. This keeps the hive from migrating. Bees are maimed and killed when handled. Farms are dependant on synthetic pesticides which can be harmfull to workers.

In my opinion there aren't concrete rules you must live by (to a point) to consider yourself vegan. I'd have no problem eating an egg if it was from a chicken I knew wasn't from the "laying strain" and wasn't obstructed from living a normal happy chicken life. For me it's not about people vs. animals, I'll do all I can to not support any form of suffering to any sentient being. For example, I would not use anything I knew to be produced in sweatshop conditions, and will go out of my way to support products I know to be produced "fair trade".

There are vegans who chose to eliminate animal products on a purely environmental basis. Few people realize animals don't produce nearly as much food as they consume. Despite advanced breeding and farming, for each egg you eat, the chicken had to consume three times as much food. Keep in mind this is a chicken who was in the peak of her laying career, and near starving. This food would be much more efficiant going straight to a person (obviously). Current estimates are at 840 million people malnourished worldwide, third world countries are fighting a losing battle with livestock for food. I don't like contributing to this.

As for the runnaway train killing an animal or person, I think I would choose to preserve the life of one of my own species over a great number of any other. That said, I've never really understand this common western belief that people are these superior beings excluded from the animal kingdom. We're all animals, though so many seem to thinik that other species are devoid of all the complex emotions we experience, which can't be possible.

kington99
2007-01-25, 02:33 PM
Mmm, pork. Yummy.

I feel really bad though...I'm eating some apples too...somewhere out there, I took away an apple tree's opportunity to be a parent. I'm eating its kids. I must have no soul.

I knwo you're joking, but the whole point of apples is that the tree wants you to eat them, that's why they're so tasty.

dudewithasock
2007-01-25, 02:38 PM
I knwo you're joking, but the whole point of apples is that the tree wants you to eat them, that's why they're so tasty.

Well then why is meat so tasty?

Borges
2007-01-25, 03:32 PM
Farmed bees are fed sugar syrup, and pollin substitutes to replace they honey they would have eaten, which lowers the hive's longevity. Queens are slaughtered at 1/3 their normal lifespan. "swarming" a natural bee reproductive behaviour is prevented with artificial pheremones and by clipping the queen's wings. This keeps the hive from migrating. Bees are maimed and killed when handled. Farms are dependant on synthetic pesticides which can be harmfull to workers.

You can avoid some of that if you want to. I don't know how "organic" honey is produced, but if you're not-quite-vegan, it may be worth taking a look at.


I got this from an ex-hobby beekeeper:


Synthetic pesticides are easily replaced. You can treat bees for parasites without them.

Even if queens are killed you can limit it to one bee per hive every two years.

The pheromones are "birth control" for bees. If you don't want more hives you can either use the pheromones or kill the queens to avoid swarming. Pheromones are supposedly not harmful to the bees, but they interfere with the natural reproduction in the hive.

Clipping a queens wing is the same as killing her. She will try to swarm, but fall to the ground and die. The practice is not always effective because the swam isn't always able to go back to the hive or reestablish itself and produce a new queen.

If you don't kill the old queen she will swarm when a new queen comes along. That means you have to go out and catch them or loose half your hive. You can buy swarm lures, but they use artificial pheromones too. Alternatively you could just let the bees go, but many of them will die in the wild that way.

koebwil
2007-01-25, 03:37 PM
I knwo you're joking, but the whole point of apples is that the tree wants you to eat them, that's why they're so tasty.
I prefer to put it that, Apples don't run from you and don't feel pain. Also all of this Hypothetical "Would you save a human by killing animals" crap is just bringing in semantics to cover a flawed argument. The point is to try to get a vegan to answer and then you'll take the other sides arguments (which are usually valid points). The point is to just try to bait someone by putting a stupid point that can't really be refuted to them, when in reality things are much more simple than these situations.

Also if one more toothless fat ass redneck tells me that I'm living an unhealthy lifestyle I am going to go insane. I actually had someone I would describe as morbidly obese try to tell me being vegan is unhealthy. I just gave him the old :confused: look.

Borges
2007-01-25, 03:39 PM
Well then why is meat so tasty?
So you'll raise more animals to eat, and help the survival of their species?

dudewithasock
2007-01-25, 04:22 PM
So you'll raise more animals to eat, and help the survival of their species?

Maybe...but on second though, I don't care much...they taste good. :p

uni_jim
2007-01-25, 05:26 PM
Wo cheeses? Where would an animal get cheese from?

OOPS!

sorry, i meant milk and eggs.

kington99
2007-01-25, 05:34 PM
I prefer to put it that, Apples don't run from you and don't feel pain.

I agree if you're asking the question is/isn't it morally right to eat an apple. I'm not trying to argue against veganism, I'm just interested as to what people's reasons are, I like to understand how different people think about stuff like this.

uni_jim
2007-01-25, 05:34 PM
If animals weren't meant to be eaten, they wouldn't be made out of meat.

But really, if a bear (also a large omnivore) was being rabilitated in a zoo or something, would it be wrong to feed it meat instead of a garden salad?

mscalisi
2007-01-25, 06:24 PM
Actually, apples (and other fruit) really DO want to be eaten. The idea is that an animal will eat the fuit, and shit the seeds. The seeds then have nutrient rich "soil" to grow in.


I prefer to put it that, Apples don't run from you and don't feel pain.

BluntRM
2007-01-25, 08:48 PM
Also all of this Hypothetical "Would you save a human by killing animals" crap is just bringing in semantics to cover a flawed argument. The point is to try to get a vegan to answer and then you'll take the other sides arguments (which are usually valid points). The point is to just try to bait someone by putting a stupid point that can't really be refuted to them, when in reality things are much more simple than these situations.

I'm a vegetarian, but the heart of the question isn't to break the law of universal morality that's kept in stringent veganism, but to temper it with a reality, albeit a far fetched one, that would get at the heart of what is meant by "Animal Welfare", using animals in a morally just way, and "Animal Rights", treating animals as certain equals to our own species. At some point the scale tips. I support radical food politics, the meat industry is a symptom of the destructive nature of free capital, rational premises taken to an irrational means (Yes, you could eat meat, but like this?) and veganism is a necessary over-compensation for this type of consumption, but theory, particularly ethical theory, can never be complacent with itself.


Also if one more toothless fat ass redneck tells me that I'm living an unhealthy lifestyle I am going to go insane. I actually had someone I would describe as morbidly obese try to tell me being vegan is unhealthy. I just gave him the old :confused: look. Sounds familiar.

mscalisi
2007-01-25, 11:38 PM
That bear might say the same of humans.

If animals weren't meant to be eaten, they wouldn't be made out of meat.

But really, if a bear (also a large omnivore) was being rabilitated in a zoo or something, would it be wrong to feed it meat instead of a garden salad?

James_Potter
2007-01-26, 12:24 AM
If animals weren't meant to be eaten, they wouldn't be made out of meat.

But really, if a bear (also a large omnivore) was being rabilitated in a zoo or something, would it be wrong to feed it meat instead of a garden salad?
People are made of meat too...would you eat people?

Bears actually eat mostly plant products, rather rarely do they ever eat meat...so, it would make more sense to feed it a 'garden salad' or something similar (:

dudewithasock
2007-01-26, 01:43 AM
People are made of meat too...would you eat people?

Bears actually eat mostly plant products, rather rarely do they ever eat meat...so, it would make more sense to feed it a 'garden salad' or something similar (:

No...it'd actually make more sense to feed them berries or fish.

James_Potter
2007-01-26, 01:45 AM
Well, berries are a plant product. And I guess I forgot about fish, they do eat a lot of that hmm...well, they also eat lots of plants.

dudewithasock
2007-01-26, 01:49 AM
I LOVE BACON-WRAPPED STEAK

pix
2007-03-31, 10:25 PM
*replies without reading much of the thread... i'm a lazy vegan*

i'd say everyone has to come up with their own justifications for being vegan. so for some people, perhaps "fossil" fuel doesn't fit their idea of vegan. although AFAIK the majority of oil/coal is fossilised vegetable matter. i imagine the amount of animal biomass lying around in the earth's crust is relatively negligible.

i don't see vegan as a club or a religion. it's just a word that is slightly more convenient than listing all of the stuff you do/don't wear/eat. in practice i find the word pretty useless, and normally have to ask specifically about the ingredients or origin of things. although i try to do my own research to avoid being that annoying vegan.

but as we hurtle towards peak-oil, maybe we should spread the meme that fossil fuels are really squeezed out of the skulls of cute little orphans? ;)

pix.

James_Potter
2007-03-31, 10:32 PM
i don't see vegan as a club or a religion.
I agree...it's definitely more of a cult than anything else.

BillyTheMountain
2007-04-01, 01:01 AM
I agree...it's definitely more of a cult than anything else.

Much smaller than the MEAT cult.

JJuggle
2007-05-21, 01:58 PM
For vegans who don't eat honey, is there a difference in the raising of bees for the harvesting their honey from the mere raising of bees as tools for the pollination and growing of crops, etc? Or put another way are there vegans who will only eat fruits, vegetables, and grains that are grown without the use of apiaries.

skianduniaddict
2007-05-21, 07:49 PM
that is a good question...we should see an increase in vegan unicyclists soon.
thats not true at all its not like it was just declared unvegan our vegen unicyclist numbers should go up at a steady rate

BillyTheMountain
2007-05-22, 02:54 AM
For vegans who don't eat honey, is there a difference in the raising of bees for the harvesting their honey from the mere raising of bees as tools for the pollination and growing of crops, etc? Or put another way are there vegans who will only eat fruits, vegetables, and grains that are grown without the use of apiaries.


Except for those few bees confined to greenhouses, all bees are free-range. all honey is free-range honey.

As an aside, did you know beekeeping is against the law in NYC, akin to keeping a ferocious animal like a tiger or a ferret.

They don't enforce it.