You can't afford a car! (also re to Sock)

[JusticeZero]

While technically on topic in the thread this is from, it also had enough to it that it seems to merit it's own discussion...
For me, it can be hard to justify buying a new uni, since I'm at the age where I need a car but don't have one, yet my family can't afford one. So, do I save for a car, or put it towards unicycling?
There's some discussion on cars, and cycling and such.. Basically, if you run the numbers, if you can get where you need to go by bus, tram, and cycle (in your case, unicycle - get a Coker, you'll see how you can justify this) you will save a lot of money.. and you can probably get around on transit a LOT better than you think you can.

We covered this in class because i'm doing my postgrad degree on transportation planning, and part of the class was talking about economics of sprawl and the like.
When we looked at the numbers, using a model with entirely reasonable figures of travel, if you invest in a cell phone with a cab company on quickdial, and every time you feel the need to go somewhere call for a TAXI and pay the full fare, you still will be spending about the same, and likely even less than you would if you owned a car. People talk about petrol costs being a big deterrent to car usage, but frankly it's a drop in the bucket. Add up registration, insurance, maintenance, parking, etc. and that's a LOT of money.

Also, when we did some time trials in Melbourne - a city which does not by a long shot have a top notch transit system - on trips inside of the city we were able to get around faster by public transit than by car. Trips further were only mildly shorter as a rule. People don't think about parking time, navigation issues, traffic, etc.

The lesson to be learned here is:

Don't worry about buying a car. Still get a drivers' license so that you can rent a car if needed, sure. A rental car is in nice condition and likely impresses a date more anyways.

Instead, buy a 36" uni with a nice comfortable seat, good riding clothes, good bike locks, and a transit pass. If anyone gives you a hard time, tell them you're saving for college or something. Plus you can feel happy to know that automobile usage has a -negative- correlation with income - poor people typically drive cars, rich people ride bikes and the like; that was the prof in question's research thesis.

[squirrel]

you didn't mention the BIG expense, depreciation

which you can get around by buying a fully depreciated car, but then you will have to pay more for maintenance.

Also you didn't tell us folks how we're going to get around without a car when we live 10 miles from town...because that's the only place there is housing available with zoning that lets us engage in our other hobbies.

[ivan]

Hm, that's the kind of thoughts I was having, except I didn't have all that research to back reassure me. Could you post a link to it, please(if available).

[phlegm]

Besides financial costs, there are social expenses for not driving a car. In the USA, except perhaps in the densest of cities, we look down on people who use public transit, and people who cycle everywhere are freaks. In fact, I've heard a manager criticize a coworker of mine for not having a car, even though this coworker lived only a mile from work.

So, has anyone else been dreaming about the Big Dummy (http://www.surlybikes.com/surlyblog.html)?

[johnfoss]

In the USA, except perhaps in the densest of cities, we look down on people who use public transit, and people who cycle everywhere are freaks.
The world could use more freaks. Like the guy who lives somewhere near me, who I used to see occasionally riding to work on his Coker Monster bike, the only one of those I've ever seen in person. He owns a bike shop downtown, and definitely looks like a freak riding that bike.

For the suburb where I live, though you *can* get around by bus and light rail, but what's missing from the above equations is the cost in *time*. You have to wait for the bus, and connect the routes together, which could take you two hours to connect two locations outside the downtown area.

So the ability to live comfortably without a car depends a lot on location; generally how close you are to an urban center and what kind of mass transit it offers. But I sure did enjoy riding to work the times I did it...

[gkmac]

For the suburb where I live, though you *can* get around by bus and light rail, but what's missing from the above equations is the cost in *time*. You have to wait for the bus, and connect the routes together, which could take you two hours to connect two locations outside the downtown area.I agree with that fully. Ever since I started to drive to juggling club instead of taking the train, I've had more time to eat dinner before going, and more time to do other stuff after I get home.

Croydon is the second nearest juggling club to me. The nearest (as the crow flies) is in Molesey (next to Hampton Court) which involves a train to Raynes Park and then wasting... err, I mean waiting twenty-seven minutes for the connecting train to continue the journey.


A car has an unbeatable advantage when it comes to taking cargo with you. I once had to take a surplus table to a relative's house; not only would you have difficulty putting it somewhere after boarding the train, but can you imagine lugging one of those down the high street on the way to and from the train station?

And what if you wanted to take a six-foot giraffe to a club or convention? Taking one of those on the bus or train would be far too silly.

[burjzyntski]

Public transportation is not available everywhere. My town, and the rest of towns in the county, do not have much to offer in the way of public transport. We have a teeny bus called the Community Coach which has a phone number on the side of it that you can call a day in advance and have your name put on a list of people to be picked up. I've never taken it before, but I've heard that they will bring you anywhere in the county for $2. The only people that I know of (that I've ever seen) that use it are either bound to wheelchairs or elderly.

I would rather have a Coker than use our public transportation.

I have a car but I always keep a unicycle in the trunk. I saw gas for $2.27 this morning on my way to class. I get almost 30mpg, so this ends up being about as expensive as public transportation would be.

[monkeyman]

Public transportation is not available everywhere.

Exactly. Mine and Dudewithasock's neighborhood is definitely lacking for public transportation...come to think of it, most of the Dallas metroplex is. There's a whole 1 bus station that I know of in Garland (next town over from us), and none that I know of in Rowlett. If you don't have access to a car here, you won't be going anywhere.

[forrestunifreak]

Instead, buy a 36" uni with a nice comfortable seat, good riding clothes, good bike locks, and a transit pass.

Not were I live!

Nearest grocery store, 15 miles away, nearest wal-mart 50 miles away, and as for bus stations...

[harper]

For the suburb where I live, though you *can* get around by bus and light rail, but what's missing from the above equations is the cost in *time*. You have to wait for the bus, and connect the routes together, which could take you two hours to connect two locations outside the downtown area.



People talk about petrol costs being a big deterrent to car usage, but frankly it's a drop in the bucket. Add up registration, insurance, maintenance, parking, etc. and that's a LOT of money.





Croydon is the second nearest juggling club to me. The nearest (as the crow flies) is in Molesey (next to Hampton Court) which involves a train to Raynes Park and then wasting... err, I mean waiting twenty-seven minutes for the connecting train to continue the journey.

A car has an unbeatable advantage when it comes to taking cargo with you. I once had to take a surplus table to a relative's house; not only would you have difficulty putting it somewhere after boarding the train, but can you imagine lugging one of those down the high street on the way to and from the train station?

And what if you wanted to take a six-foot giraffe to a club or convention? Taking one of those on the bus or train would be far too silly.

These points make comparisons difficult. Hidden costs. To both John and me, time is money. Is it worth it to me to walk to a bus stop, wait, move slowly on a road-busting water buffalo of a bus, maybe transfer to another one, wait some more, and then walk to the final destination? That might be worth $30 to me for a specific trip in time alone. It might be worth $60 to John for a different trip.

JusticeZero points out that cars have expenses other than fuel costs. Operating a car costs something like $0.30 per mile when you include the hidden costs he's mentioned. And, as pointed out, if it sits there doing nothing at all it still depreciates.

gkmac points out that cars have an incredible advantage as cargo movers. Do I want to take a bus, a train, a subway, and do some hefty walking to get a 4 by 8 foot piece of 3/4" plywood home from Home Depot? Would I want to rent a car for that one trip? Would that be cost effective?

Cars are good, cars are bad. They can get you to the hospital in a hurry. They can break down at the least convenient moment. They make noise and they use natural resources. But they don't destroy roads per passenger anywhere near as efficiently as buses do. A bus is like a tank on a street, compressing the asphalt and concrete like they were marshmallow. And nothing requires the real estate that trains do. Remember, only trains can ride on train tracks. No cars, no buses, no bicycles, no unicycles.

Where do the roads come from that we ride these bicycles and unicycles on? Taxes paid by people buying fuel and license plates for their cars. People paying sales tax on the purchase of their cars. How well would our bicycles and unicycles work as transportation without these roads?

[ThisGuyIKnow]

gkmac points out that cars have an incredible advantage as cargo movers. Do I want to take a bus, a train, a subway, and do some hefty walking to get a 4 by 8 foot piece of 3/4" plywood home from Home Depot? Would I want to rent a car for that one trip? Would that be cost effective?

That's why home depot has trucks to rent by the hour. Most people don't drive cars adequete to carry plywood in anyway.


But they don't destroy roads per passenger anywhere near as efficiently as buses do. A bus is like a tank on a street, compressing the asphalt and concrete like they were marshmallow.

Per passanger mile?

Does a bus driving over a strip of asphalt with 40 passangers in it really do more damage than 40 cars with 1 passanger each do to the same strip?

I don't know I'm just curious if your statement is really that accurate.

[phlegm]

Most people don't drive cars adequete to carry plywood in anyway.

Easy solution: LOTS of rope :D

[dudewithasock]

Uhh...thanks for the advice, but as Alex already pointed out, the public transportation system isn't very thorough around where we live, especially in Rowlett.

And as far as using a coker to get everywhere, my mom would kill me if I went anywhere close to a 40+ mph road on anything but a car.

[ThisGuyIKnow]

And as far as using a coker to get everywhere, my mom would kill me if I went anywhere close to a 40+ mph road on anything but a car.

I hope your Mom try to stop you from going on a car too. I knwo you have good balance from unicycling but you're no Teen Wolf.

[monkeyman]

I hope your Mom try to stop you from going on a car too. I knwo you have good balance from unicycling but you're no Teen Wolf.
No, he drives ON the car. He sits on the roof, and steers with his legs through the sunroof...he uses a remote for the pedals. It's kinda unnerving to be in the car with him for a bit....but you get used to it.

[ThisGuyIKnow]

No, he drives ON the car. He sits on the roof, and steers with his legs through the sunroof...he uses a remote for the pedals. It's kinda unnerving to be in the car with him for a bit....but you get used to it.


I guess my teen wolf reference was a bit over your head.

[phlegm]

And as far as using a coker to get everywhere, my mom would kill me if I went anywhere close to a 40+ mph road on anything but a car.

Texas roads are scary. I had to visit Dallas once for work, and the roads were nothing like the relatively bike friendly roads of California. Three lanes each way, zero shoulder, and people drive like they own the road. Even strolling on the sidewalk was a bit unnerving. I'd never want to live there.

[monkeyman]

Texas roads are scary. I had to visit Dallas once for work, and the roads were nothing like the relatively bike friendly roads of California. Three lanes each way, zero shoulder, and people drive like they own the road. Even strolling on the sidewalk was a bit unnerving. I'd never want to live there.


It's not that bad here in Rowlett...it is worse in actual Dallas though.

I guess my teen wolf reference was a bit over your head.
Yeah...I haven't seen that movie. I was just making a joke...it had nothing to do with the reference.

[JusticeZero]

I'll try to track down the references the prof used, but they're liable to need access to a uni library to look at. In the meantime..
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2006/09/05/financial/f100930D56.DTL&type=business
By the way, in a discussion thread, the person interviewed who complained about not being able to get a date now has a girlfriend, and a number of tips came out of how to make biking and busing everywhere sexy.
1, Make sure you have a plan for what you're doing with the money you're saving. For instance, if you say "Yeah, i'm saving up money for a down payment on a condo" then it suddenly becomes a financial asset.
2, Make sure to have nice riding clothes because people who are "poor" obviously wouldn't have those.
3, Don't worry about talking about it, if you get a date, rent a car and show up in that. (Since just *owning* a car appears to cost ~$500/month, renting a car or a cab is within your means.)

From a discussion on a planning forum.. I started the process of donating my car to charity and signed up for Flexcar. Even though my car is paid for, I'm going to save about $300 a month in insurance, gas, and opportunity cost on the parking space I own. I'm sure at least half of it will end up going towards Flexcar and cabs but I'm pretty happy to make the change. If I can go carfree in the cartopia of Atlanta, I'd think others could do it too.

...some argue that you can't carry large items on a bus, but then question then becomes: did you need that 'large item' in the first place? I've found when I owned a car, I tended to spend more, not because things were more expensive or that I need the items, but simply because psychologically I had more trunk space, but when I bike and ride, I was more calculating about what I purchased because I knew I did not have a lot of room..

...Many claim that the car gives them freedom, but that is becoming a myth in many cities where the traffic nightmare is forcing many to not bother driving beyond the commute to work making them prisoners in their own homes. I've had that happen to me. After dealing with traffic to get home, I didn't even feel like going back out once I got home. It was pretty sad because I felt so drained.
Looking for more of the stuff linked in, but my browser is going berserk..

[harper]

Per passanger mile?

Does a bus driving over a strip of asphalt with 40 passangers in it really do more damage than 40 cars with 1 passanger each do to the same strip?

I don't know I'm just curious if your statement is really that accurate.

Yes. Buses do more road damage per passenger mile than cars do. Road damage is basically caused by heavy vehicles as the damage to the road pavement increases to the fourth power of the axle load. This is a hidden infrastructure cost. The weight of the bus itself is the real killer, not the people on it.

Axle weight on a bus is about 15,000 lbs per axle (3 axle bus) and gross vehicle weights are of order 45,000 lbs. A full sized, giant, obnoxious SUV is about 6000 lbs or 3000 lbs per axle. The ratio is about five in axle load between the bus and the big, huge, honkin' SUV (not your "standard" car.) At that ratio, one empty bus does about as much road damage as 625 big, huge SUV's with single occupants.

From the standpoint of fuel, however, a full bus is much more cost effective than the equivalent number of cars with single occupants. That's why people are screaming at the SUV drivers for sucking up gas. Many costs are hidden. Many are intended to stay that way.

[harper]

More interesting is to look at the first derivative or expand (axle load + the weight of one person)^4 and look at the second term, which will be the only significant one. Compare that to adding a person to a car using one of those two methods. Look at how much more incremental damage is done by each passenger getting onto a bus compared to each additional passenger getting into a car. It matters a little if the bus has two or three axles, but not that much.

Pick a bus (Metro NYC) and find out its GVW, unloaded weight, load per axle full and empty, all that stuff. Do the same for the most popular car in NYC, whatever car that is. It's not a huge, honkin', monster SUV, by the way. Look at the damage ratios and they will skyrocket for the bus as you put people on it. The incremental damage for each additional passenger will increase as the cube of the axle load of the vehicle.

Now, think of what the axle load per axle for a bicycle with rider is. It's about twice that for a unicycle with rider. A unicycle does 16 times as much road damage as a bicycle. We're bad people. And either cycle is negligible compared to a car. A car with rider might be 3000 lbs or 1500 lbs per axle. A bicycle might be 100 lbs per axle. The car is doing about 50,000 times as much road damage as the bicycle The bus is doing about 33 million times as much damage as the bicycle. You have 200 buses cross the same point. In order to do the same damage the entire world population would have to cross the same point on bicycles. That would take about 40 years if the bikes were spaced about 10 feet apart going 10 miles an hour.

Those are estimates. It might be fun to do it accurately.

[monkeyman]

See guys? He's not useless...

[harper]

See guys? He's not useless...

Am so.

[monkeyman]

My life is a lie....

[toddw9]

See guys? He's not useless...

you mean that huge load of information is actually useful somehow?:cool:

[maestro8]

The world could use more freaks.
Huzzah!

[domesticated ape]

Dudewithasock, do you have the option of driving someone else's car? I learnt to drive when I was 18 and from then until when I permanently moved out of my parents house I was always on my Dad's car insurance. Obviously it depends on what kind of car your parents drive but for me it worked out pretty cheap, and I could use the car whenever my Dad didn't need it.

Now I live with my wife and still don't have a car, I just drive hers. I live out in the countryside, about 3 or 4 miles from the nearest town, and I use my bike to get around when I can't use the car. My commute to the train station to get to university is 6.5 miles and can be done easily in about half an hour.

I really like having the use of a car without all the expense (I do pay for my share of the costs, but I don't use it much so it's not much to pay), and I intend to put off buying a car as long as possible!

Also, even if you do get a car, even a cheap one is going to be way more than a coker, so why not save for both?

[sugarloafur]

Don't worry about buying a car. Still get a drivers' license so that you can rent a car if needed, sure. A rental car is in nice condition and likely impresses a date more anyways.

Problem here in the US is that most rental companies (if not all) wont let you rent a car until you're at least 25 years old.

Cars do deprciate, but if you buy a car that has already done most of it, you're all set! I would venture a guess that buying a nearly depreciated vehicle and paying for the required maintenance would be far less than just buying new vehicles and selling them before they get to that point of 'needing attention'. I could be wrong, but that's my interpretation.

Also, I live in Maine. Most of Maine is rural, and there are only 5 or 6 different towns/cities that have public transportation (and everything is spread out).

[JusticeZero]

They do depreciate, but average maintenance costs increase with age.
And you still have to deal with insurance ($yikes/month), registration ($zOMG/year), parking and fuel, as well as the fact that it's not as much of a "time-saver" as people think it is.

[Spudman]

More interesting is to look at the first derivative or expand (axle load + the weight of one person)^4 and look at the second term, which will be the only significant one. Compare that to adding a person to a car using one of those two methods. Look at how much more incremental damage is done by each passenger getting onto a bus compared to each additional passenger getting into a car. It matters a little if the bus has two or three axles, but not that much.

Pick a bus (Metro NYC) and find out its GVW, unloaded weight, load per axle full and empty, all that stuff. Do the same for the most popular car in NYC, whatever car that is. It's not a huge, honkin', monster SUV, by the way. Look at the damage ratios and they will skyrocket for the bus as you put people on it. The incremental damage for each additional passenger will increase as the cube of the axle load of the vehicle.

Now, think of what the axle load per axle for a bicycle with rider is. It's about twice that for a unicycle with rider. A unicycle does 16 times as much road damage as a bicycle. We're bad people. And either cycle is negligible compared to a car. A car with rider might be 3000 lbs or 1500 lbs per axle. A bicycle might be 100 lbs per axle. The car is doing about 50,000 times as much road damage as the bicycle The bus is doing about 33 million times as much damage as the bicycle. You have 200 buses cross the same point. In order to do the same damage the entire world population would have to cross the same point on bicycles. That would take about 40 years if the bikes were spaced about 10 feet apart going 10 miles an hour.

Those are estimates. It might be fun to do it accurately.

How do bulldozers fit into this equation?

[harper]

How do bulldozers fit into this equation?

They repair the excessive road damage done by the bloated buses.

[squirrel]

mine doesn't do much road fixing, more like road tearing up. but it is fun to drive! and no flat tires

[Borges]

... The car is doing about 50,000 times as much road damage as the bicycle The bus is doing about 33 million times as much damage as the bicycle. You have 200 buses cross the same point. In order to do the same damage the entire world population would have to cross the same point on bicycles. That would take about 40 years if the bikes were spaced about 10 feet apart going 10 miles an hour.
Then try the calculation for an 40 ton cement truck.

(Now that I work for a railway company I should really do more of a rant about polution, public transport, road damage etc., but this was all I could get up the energy for.)

[JusticeZero]

In any case, the roads are there for the purpose of being ablated anyways. The issue with cars isn't road damage, it's the fact that cars eat real estate like a fat uncle nobody recognizes on Thanksgiving. Each five cars in a city, moving or parked, takes up as much space as six ground level single story office spaces. If all the buildings are high rises, welll yipes, that's a LOT of land value. And they're all interfering with each other, jockeying for ridiculously expensive free parking space (sometimes driving for twenty minutes or more to get into one) and interfering with the pedestrians (who in most cities, on account of the fact that cars are so darned huge, actually comprises the majority of the traffic in the city, while appearing insignificant to the untrained eye.)

[harper]

In any case, the roads are there for the purpose of being ablated anyways. The issue with cars isn't road damage, it's the fact that cars eat real estate like a fat uncle nobody recognizes on Thanksgiving.

Beautiful phrase with the fat uncle. The road damage tangent is just an interesting one that I don't think you mentioned. Some of us just got off on that tangent and you're right, it's not the issue with cars. Some of us brought up hidden costs that we didn't see in your original post.

Your school study is an interesting and informative one. Does it consider all costs per passenger mile for all forms of transportation including pedestrians? Your study may be very comprehensive and too large for you to reproduce here. It's cool to know that awareness raising projects like this one are taking place in schools especially if there is an effort to make them unbiased.

[JusticeZero]

That would be outside the scope. The material was just from adding the monetary, car-owner side costs together averaged over a year, noting the number is very large, comparing against other transport methods that people accuse of being "extremely expensive" and noting that they are at worst similar to the car, and make using a constellation of options such as cycling/transit/delivery/car rental/taxi into an extremely economical set of options, and that even if you are using them inefficiently (using taxis a lot, for instance) you are still likely paying less than you would if you'd bought a car. Best results of that does of course require a bit of planning ahead.

Edit: I'm not at a "school" like the kids would go to, since it might be that you were under that opinion from the tone of your thread talking about "how good it is that they're doing this in schools". I assure you, i'm paying quite good money to learn about this as part of my postgraduate studies, specifically doing research on transportation.

[dudewithasock]

Dudewithasock, do you have the option of driving someone else's car? I learnt to drive when I was 18 and from then until when I permanently moved out of my parents house I was always on my Dad's car insurance. Obviously it depends on what kind of car your parents drive but for me it worked out pretty cheap, and I could use the car whenever my Dad didn't need it.

Well I'm already sharing a car with my mom, I pay for my part of the insurance and usually pay for gas proportionate to my time with the car. It's not a bad deal, it's just that both our lives are fairly hectic and require a lot of getting around <insert chance for immature joke here>, so we just have to do some planning at least a few days ahead of when stuff happens.