How do you feel about the word 'random'?

[burjzyntski]

I hate it when people use it; they always not only use it in a context where I wouldn't consider the 'random event' to be particularly random, but the word itself is inaccurate to anything we have here on earth. Nothing is completely random.

[tomtrevor]

How do you feel about the word 'random'?

not bad.

Nothing is completely random.

If im walking along a path and a shark falls out of the sky, i would consider that completely random.

something is random when it is totally unexpected and has nothing to do with what you or anything else around you is doing.

[jake_amos]

not bad.



If im walking along a path and a shark falls out of the sky, i would consider that completely random.

something is random when it is totally unexpected and has nothing to do with what you or anything else around you is doing.

bahahahahahahahaTRUEbhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

SIG WORTHY

[jake_amos]

although you say really most things are planned if i dropped that shark on his head then for me it wouldn't be random but for onlookers it would be

[burjzyntski]

That's not random. It's highly improbable, but nothing could cause it to be random unless the shark spontaneously materialized out of nowhere and fell down on to you. If the shark were, say, caught up in a waterspout that caused it to be carried miles inland and then it fell in front of you, it wouldn't be random. There was a cause leading up to everything that happened.

Speaking of sharks, a 5-6ft blacktip jumped out of the water not 30 feet from where I was waiting for a wave. Scared me a bit.

[mawesome]

Edit: What he said ^

I hate it! it's been near the top of my "list of things i hate" for some time now. I've even tried to convince friends who use the word that nothing can be random at all.

eg. A shark falls from the sky, unexpected-yes, random-no
the shark would need some way to get into the sky in first place, which would have been brought on by some sort of stimuli, then the shark would also need something to bring on the action of falling (gravity) that could have been detected/measured/repeated/whatever.


I don't mind so much if it's my maths teacher talking about a sequence of numbers.


'Nother Edit: Random is not subjective, so something can't be random to you, yet not random to someone else, just not expected

[harper]

I feel cheap and betrayed. I feel indolent and listless.

[one wheely]

Did this thread start thediscussion about randomness?
http://www.unicyclist.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53274

I could argue that that question was not random, because it is realted to a lack of knowledge that he has concerning seats.

But i think you've just gotta accept that the term random is just used to describe something unexpected.

[dan de man]

I feel like I have a brain the size of a planet but nobody listens to me

[ivan]

So, what about nuclear decay? Is that random?

[tomtrevor]

That's not random. It's highly improbable, but nothing could cause it to be random unless the shark spontaneously materialized out of nowhere and fell down on to you. If the shark were, say, caught up in a waterspout that caused it to be carried miles inland and then it fell in front of you, it wouldn't be random. There was a cause leading up to everything that happened.

Speaking of sharks, a 5-6ft blacktip jumped out of the water not 30 feet from where I was waiting for a wave. Scared me a bit.

theres a reason behind everything that happens. using the term random is just a way of saying something is completely unexpected. sure, there needs to be a reason for the shark be in the air in the first place, but if one fell out of the sky, it would be highly unexpected, therefore random!

[yoopers]

How do you feel about the word 'random'?
Awesome!

[X51]

not bad.



If im walking along a path and a shark falls out of the sky, i would consider that completely random.




This sounds like a line from Hitch hikers guide to the galaxy.

[Naomi]

theres a reason behind everything that happens. using the term random is just a way of saying something is completely unexpected. sure, there needs to be a reason for the shark be in the air in the first place, but if one fell out of the sky, it would be highly unexpected, therefore random!

Nope: random and unexpected have completely different meanings. There are many many things that are truly random. Choose a card from a pack and your choice, if the pack is well shuffled and you have no knowledge of the card order, is random. You have no means of influencing that choice, and so you get to choose a random card. The chosen suit is random, the chosen card value is random. Just one example.

A shark falling out of the sky is unexpected, not random, there will be something that caused it to fall from the sky someone or something that influenced it to fall.


Nao

[mawesome]

Choose a card from a pack and your choice, if the pack is well shuffled and you have no knowledge of the card order, is random. You have no means of influencing that choice, and so you get to choose a random card. The chosen suit is random, the chosen card value is random. Just one example.

You could even go as far as saying that pulling cards from a shuffled deck isn't random. The cards are going to be in a certain order depending on the rate at which they are shuffled, the amount of cards moved per shuffle etc etc. The only thing I can see as completely "random" so far would be the big bang.

[Naomi]

You could even go as far as saying that pulling cards from a shuffled deck isn't random. The cards are going to be in a certain order depending on the rate at which they are shuffled, the amount of cards moved per shuffle etc etc. The only thing I can see as completely "random" so far would be the big bang.

I did not say that the cards would be in a completely random order, although, properly shuffled, there is not a greater likelihood of one card order over another. I said that the card drawn would be a random choice, utterly unpredictable. Simple 1 in 52 choice, all having equal probability. The RATE at which they are shuffled is irrelevant by the way. Properly shuffled is important, I think there may even be a formula for stating how long it takes to get a random shuffled order.

People have shuffled cards enthusiastically and then dealt 4 perfect bridge hands each containing just one suit. However , although you might prefer not to call that a random event, it is not more unlikely than any of the other many millions of possible deals ( indeed, there are many card orders that would give the same hands). So in as much as one particular card order is as likely as any other, then a card drawn from a shuffled pack will give a random card selection. The selection could not be any more random. Totally, 100% random.
As regards the perfect bridge hands one could say: If a deck of cards is shuffled properly into a completley random order, and the cards dealt, there is still a predictable frequency at which perfect bridge hands will be dealt. The same principle, expressed more simply says, if I throw an unbiased coin, it has a random chance of landing heads or tails, but sometimes it WILL land on heads.

I am not at all sure you can describe the "Big Bang" as a random event. It remains a theory, unproven. How can you describe a theory as random? As someone suggested, the radioactive decay of a single free atom is a random event. Its chances of decaying in the next 60 seconds ( if undecayed before the minute starts) is exactly the same for anyone reading this sentence.

defns:
random number: 1. A number selected from a known set of numbers in such a way that each number in the set has the same probability of occurrence. 2. A number obtained by chance. 3. One of a sequence of numbers considered appropriate for satisfying certain statistical tests or believed to be free from conditions that might bias the result of a calculation.

ran·dom (răn'dəm)
adj.
Having no specific pattern, purpose, or objective: random movements. See synonyms at chance.
Mathematics & Statistics. Of or relating to a type of circumstance or event that is described by a probability distribution.
Of or relating to an event in which all outcomes are equally likely,
idiom:
at random
Without a governing design, method, or purpose; unsystematically: choose a card at random from the deck.



I think some in here may be applying their own definitions of random.

Nao

[cathwood]

I would be tempted to say that human behaviour is random.

Yes there may be specific reasons why we engage in a particular type of behaviour, unicycling for instance. (Although we may all have constructed a narrative of how we came into unicycling in the first place that is a totally different thing). However the reasons may be completely buried in the past or in the depth of our personality and be so many and varied that they qualify as being random.

Ofcourse there are various people in the world - police, teachers and psychologists for example who need to pretend otherwise for the sake of their careers.

Cathy

[johnhimsworth]

A shark falling from the sky could be random, but I think I'll stick with coins for now.

[ice_cold_uni6]

well, sure, the word random can be used in the sense that something happens that has nothing at all to do with the context of what is going on.
from a scientific standpoint, nearly everything can be predicted completely via physics equations. the heisenburg uncertainty maintains a small uncertainty (potential for randomness) for every event that occurs and has greater effect the smaller the object is, but nothing is COMPLETELY random, as whichever outcome is resultant is at least partially predictable based on prior data.

[BillyTheMountain]

well, sure, the word random can be used in the sense that something happens that has nothing at all to do with the context of what is going on.
from a scientific standpoint, nearly everything can be predicted completely via physics equations. the heisenburg uncertainty maintains a small uncertainty (potential for randomness) for every event that occurs and has greater effect the smaller the object is, but nothing is COMPLETELY random, as whichever outcome is resultant is at least partially predictable based on prior data.

Does that mean since I'm 6'4" tall and weigh a LOT, I'm less uncertain than say, tree potatoe, who is barely 5' tall and weighs only 89 pounds?

[ice_cold_uni6]

Does that mean since I'm 6'4" tall and weigh a LOT, I'm less uncertain than say, tree potatoe, who is barely 5' tall and weighs only 89 pounds?
HAHAHAHA! that was good.
no. well, yes. in the decision-making sense, no. if we mean you're both tumbling through space at a given velocity, your future velocity is more certain than is treepotato's, so yes. (its really, unimagininably small for things larger than atoms, anyway) consider that next time you find yourself tumbling through space with her.

[dan de man]

This sounds like a line from Hitch hikers guide to the galaxy.
nah man what happens is that there are two missles and when the flip the infinite improbability drive the two misles turn into a bowl of petunias and a whale

also note my previos post

[vuniw]

i personally have nothing against the word

[JJuggle]

I hate it when people use it; they always not only use it in a context where I wouldn't consider the 'random event' to be particularly random, but the word itself is inaccurate to anything we have here on earth. Nothing is completely random.
As to your first comment, I hope when you say "hate" that you are exaggerating. Otherwise I might think you are obsessing about something fairly insignificant and, frankly, be worried about your mental health.

As for your second comment, you need to provide concrete examples. Otherwise it is quite difficult to either agree with you or ridicule you.

As to your last comment, all that follows "but" including the last sentence, I think you are trying to enforce a standard of preciseness that far exceeds what is normal for everyday conversation. Does it bother you for example when someone says of the man at the DMV, "man I really wanted to kill that guy" that they, in fact, did not actually want to kill him but were merely frustrated by the impediments he put in the way of their getting a replacement copy of their vehicle registration?

[uni57]

merely frustrated by the impediments he put in the way of their getting a replacement copy of their vehicle registration?This is too detailed to be a hypothetical situation. :)

[Naomi]

well, sure, the word random can be used in the sense that something happens that has nothing at all to do with the context of what is going on.
from a scientific standpoint, nearly everything can be predicted completely via physics equations. the heisenburg uncertainty maintains a small uncertainty (potential for randomness) for every event that occurs and has greater effect the smaller the object is, but nothing is COMPLETELY random, as whichever outcome is resultant is at least partially predictable based on prior data.

Science can predict that if it hits a wall, a car will get bent. But would you explain , in detail, why a card drawn by a person from a pack that has been very well shuffled by another person does not give a completely random result? How is the physics going to render that result non random? If the result is not random then the chooser should be able to give a favourable, if small, odds on the process. Feel free to explain it in physical equations if you wish. To claim that nothing is completely random is a pretty silly thing to say. Implicit in it, is that it would be possible to predict, from the equations alone what my next typed word will be: codswallop. It is to say there is no choice in anything you do today, did yesterday, or will do tomorrow.
To suggest outcome is dependant on past data flies in the face of all the mathematics of probability when applied to many types of event: for example coin flipping.
In conclusion: Some events are random, some are not.


And doesn't Heisenberg merely say that you cannot measure certain incidents without affecting them. Leave them alone and they will get on and do their job? Is their anything about randomness there?


Nao

[JJuggle]

This is too detailed to be a hypothetical situation. :)
Well, I'll be, will y'all look who's popped in.

[BillyTheMountain]

To claim that nothing is completely random is a pretty silly thing to say. Implicit in it, is that it would be possible to predict, from the equations alone what my next typed word will be: codswallop.

Nao

It may be impossible to predict with our current level of neuroscience and behavioral science. But your next typed word was certainly NOT completely random. At great risk to myself, I venture to suggest that That word had a much greater likelihood of coming from your fingers (being who you are) than mine (being who I am).

Remember what BF Skinner said: We attribute freedom to an individual when the contingencies which guide his/her behavior are not apparent to us.

One interpretation is he meant: we attribute randomness to something when the relevant contingencies for prediction are not apparent or known to us.

[BillyTheMountain]

Then again, there is the "random number generator."

Now we can say something IS random, or at least HOPE.

[Naomi]

[QUOTE=BillyTheMountain]It may be impossible to predict with our current level of neuroscience and behavioral science. But your next typed word was certainly NOT completely random. At great risk to myself, I venture to suggest that That word had a much greater likelihood of coming from your fingers (being who you are) than mine (being who I am).
QUOTE]


Yes, but had I just decided to open up a dictionary, rather than throw in a relevant word, then the randomness would have been easy to create, As I would have not chosen the word with any motive, then there is no way another could have predicted that word. Behavioral and Neurological science eliminated from the equation at the turn of a page.

Random numbers: all you need is a very rapid decimal counter, and a human finger to press the stop button. If the counter only becomes visible at the touch of the button, then there is an equal chance that the last digit will be any of the 10 available at random. Probably more certain than a programmed R.N.G....although one would hope even that would generate pretty well at random.


Nao

[burjzyntski]

As to your first comment, I hope when you say "hate" that you are exaggerating. Otherwise I might think you are obsessing about something fairly insignificant and, frankly, be worried about your mental health.

Yes, I was exaggerating. I was actually wondering if anyone would mention my use of the word "hate"; you won.