How do we sleep at night (miss teen usa content)?

[siafirede]

Ladies and gentlemen I present to you the answer to a question by the winner of Miss Teen USA:

Judge: What does Integrity mean to you?

Miss Montana: Integrity...to me...means....making a goal...and working towards the goal...and staying with the goal...till you reach the end of that goal....thats what integrity means to me.


How are we, as a society, able to produce these types of people...and still find ways to sleep at night?

[Spudman]

Today my dad and I went to Subway and asked for a 12" long savory turkey breast sandwich on wheat bread. When we asked if it was actually going to be savory as advertised, the lady (teenager) looked at us funny. She didn't know what it meant. Then we asked the other employee. Same deal.

[tomtrevor]

Today my dad and I went to Subway and asked for a 12" long savory turkey breast sandwich on wheat bread. When we asked if it was actually going to be savory as advertised, the lady (teenager) looked at us funny. She didn't know what it meant. Then we asked the other employee. Same deal.

a few weeks ago i went to subway and the lady (teenager) was cutting the bread and sliced half way through her thumb. then her and the other lady working there went out back and didn't come back for 10-15 minutes.

[john_childs]

We sleep with visions of Miss Teen USA jumping on a trampoline. Works for me. Better than counting sheep.

[skrobo]

We sleep with visions of Miss Teen USA jumping on a trampoline. Works for me. Better than counting sheep.
LOL niice

[tomtrevor]

i get to sleep by wacking myself in the head with a mallet!

[onelesscar]

I think most of the country gets to sleep with the aid of something called Tylenol PM.

[Brian MacKenzie]

i get to sleep by wacking myself

who's looking for a new sig?

[iridemymuni]

ahahahaaaha

[DK]

who's looking for a new sig?
Me. haha

[JJuggle]

Ladies and gentlemen I present to you the answer to a question by the winner of Miss Teen USA:

Judge: What does Integrity mean to you?

Miss Montana: Integrity...to me...means....making a goal...and working towards the goal...and staying with the goal...till you reach the end of that goal....thats what integrity means to me.


How are we, as a society, able to produce these types of people...and still find ways to sleep at night?
How are we, as a society, able to produce people who watch that show...and still find wasy to sleep at night? ;)

[Zzagg]

How are we, as a society, able to produce people who watch that show...and still find wasy to sleep at night? ;)You've got one point JJuggle (mind if I call you Raphael?).
Fortunately we do not have "miss teen France" contest, but we still have a lot of crappy TV shows (no pun intended but most of those come from the US).
Last week I was watching TV, desperately trying to find something interesting to watch, when I saw a few seconds of "l'île de la tentation" (tentation Island), and I told myself "how can people be so stupid and go to this kind of show, what do they expect from such an "experience"?"
The answer was tough: "they expect stupid people like you (me) to watch them".
I turned the TV off but It's so easy to get caught by those b***s***, people watching the show feel so clever compared with those poor stupid men/women... It's a good and cheap way to get self satisfied:(

Back to the topic, this contest must be fun to watch: I guess it's a kind of human robot-fight, :D

[Borges]

How are we, as a society, able to produce these types of people...and still find ways to sleep at night?
We, as individuals in society, are able to produce all types of people by ... not sleeping at night.;)

[JJuggle]

You've got one point JJuggle (mind if I call you Raphael?).
Fortunately we do not have "miss teen France" contest, but we still have a lot of crappy TV shows...

... it's a good and cheap way to get self satisfied:(

Back to the topic, this contest must be fun to watch: I guess it's a kind of human robot-fight, :D
I did not happen to catch the Miss Teen USA competition, but I watch more than my share of crappy TV, so my comment should be taken with grain of salt.

Please, feel free to call me Raphael.

[maestro8]

How are we, as a society, able to produce these types of people...and still find ways to sleep at night?
I'll answer that question in two parts.

Part A: We can produce these people because there's no license required for having children. We've dumbed down society to the point where Darwin can no longer "do his work" and a myriad of stupid people are multiplying like so many rabbits.

Part B: Society has relaxed it's view on those who aren't well-educated or cannot express themselves eloquently. We don't call people dumb anymore, they're challenged individuals. Heck, we even put them on reality TV shows and digitally parade them around the country for our entertainment. It's hip to be clueless and intelligence just isn't as sexy as it used to be. Meh.

[monkeyman]

and intelligence just isn't as sexy as it used to be. Meh.

Sadly enough, you're right.

[dudewithasock]

I wouldn't exactly say it's "hip" to be clueless...it's just that the cluelessness is overlooked because of beauty and physical perfection. The people that are clueless are clueless because they spend time to perfect themselves physically, and in today's society, that's all that's needed to become attractive. There are still beautiful people who have more than half a brain to work with.

[siafirede]

How are we, as a society, able to produce people who watch that show...and still find wasy to sleep at night? ;)

This is very true. I happened to catch the Q&A section while flipping through the channels, but I could have just turned off the TV and read a book instead. I should really just smash my TV.

[Ricky W]

me and my dad was talking about this when she said it

[johnfoss]

Society has relaxed it's view on those who aren't well-educated or cannot express themselves eloquently.
Correction -- *American* society. Many other societies still have their priorities straight, I hope...

[johnfoss]

Today my dad and I went to Subway and asked for a 12" long savory turkey breast sandwich on wheat bread. When we asked if it was actually going to be savory as advertised, the lady (teenager) looked at us funny. She didn't know what it meant.
Next time ask her if she knows what BMT stands for. For those of you who don't go to Subway, that's one of their main sandwiches.

To me, savory is one of the most annoying words in the English language. Its only (remaining) use is in advertising copy. Whoop de doo.

Back to the BMT. The corporate line is that it means Bigger, Meatier, Tastier. Cause it certainly doesn't mean bacon, mayo tomato! But its real orgin is in the BMT subway line, in New York. Yes, all that crazy NYC subway wallpaper in there has something to do with something! BMT sands for Brooklyn-Manhattan Transit, and is a throwback to the days when the various subways in the city were separate corporate identities. Now they are all connected under the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey (the same company that owned the World Trade Center). Mmmm. I'd like one of those Brooklyn-Manhattan Transit sandwiches. Sort of conjures up smells of the subway...

[Spudman]

Yes, all that crazy NYC subway wallpaper in there has something to do with something!

:eek:

[Unitik908]

the miss indiana was a senior at my school last year...

Chase

[JJuggle]

I'll answer that question in two parts.

Part A: We can produce these people because there's no license required for having children. We've dumbed down society to the point where Darwin can no longer "do his work" and a myriad of stupid people are multiplying like so many rabbits.
You seem to be arguing, paradoxically, that having unrestricted procreation is inhibiting evolution. And you seem to be suggesting, again paradoxically, that regulating procreation would actually permit evolution to take its natural course.

And you also seem to be suggesting that you know, despite their procreative success, that dumb people are not the natural result of the evolutionary process.

Also, can you point to any time or society in human history where procreation was regulated and that that regulation demonstrably resulted in a smarter average person?

Part B: Society has relaxed it's view on those who aren't well-educated or cannot express themselves eloquently. We don't call people dumb anymore, they're challenged individuals. Heck, we even put them on reality TV shows and digitally parade them around the country for our entertainment. It's hip to be clueless and intelligence just isn't as sexy as it used to be. Meh.
And just to push this further, if you're so smart, why didn't you answer the entire question asked, i.e. how we can produce these people AND sleep at night? ;)

[JJuggle]

The people that are clueless are clueless because they spend time to perfect themselves physically, and in today's society, that's all that's needed to become attractive.
How do you explain those who are patently ugly and clueless?

[maestro8]

Correction -- *American* society. Many other societies still have their priorities straight, I hope...
That's what I meant... I just can't express myself eloquently :D

There are many Asian countries that put education before athleticism, fashion, hobbies, etc. That's the kind of attitude that needs to be adopted in America before we can hope to keep up with the rest of the world. But no. We'll just rely on our firepower instead. :confused:

[JJuggle]

Next time ask her if she knows what BMT stands for. For those of you who don't go to Subway, that's one of their main sandwiches.

To me, savory is one of the most annoying words in the English language. Its only (remaining) use is in advertising copy. Whoop de doo.

Back to the BMT. The corporate line is that it means Bigger, Meatier, Tastier. Cause it certainly doesn't mean bacon, mayo tomato! But its real orgin is in the BMT subway line, in New York. Yes, all that crazy NYC subway wallpaper in there has something to do with something! BMT sands for Brooklyn-Manhattan Transit, and is a throwback to the days when the various subways in the city were separate corporate identities. Now they are all connected under the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey (the same company that owned the World Trade Center). Mmmm. I'd like one of those Brooklyn-Manhattan Transit sandwiches. Sort of conjures up smells of the subway...
I've always preferred Blimpies.

[THE dave]

i dont think she was even born in montana.. our paper said somthing about that.. but it has been recycled.... so i can't cheak

[dudewithasock]

How do you explain those who are patently ugly and clueless?

They spend too much time unicycling. ;)

[dudewithasock]

I've always preferred Blimpies.

http://img226.imageshack.us/img226/192/no20fat20chicksgy8.jpg

[GILD]

We sleep with visions of Miss Teen USA jumping on a trampoline. Works for me. Better than counting sheep.
It's the baton twirling that always gets me.

Fun thread.
In a really scary kind of way.

[maestro8]

You seem to be arguing, paradoxically, that having unrestricted procreation is inhibiting evolution.
Yes, there is a paradox in my argument, simply because I can't present it in an intelligible manner. Let me try again, if you would be so kind. By definition, evolution is brought about through the process of natural selection. Unfortunately, our society is doing their damndest to eliminate any occurence of natural selection.

Now while I appreciate the results of some of these efforts (c'mon, you have to admit modern medicine is pretty amazing) I don't appreciate that it's messing with the balance of stupid in the gene pool. My sick and twisted solution to this problem is to regulate the balance at the source... those who procreate. Everyone can enjoy the benefits of modern medicine, law, etc. but not everyone should be allowed to reproduce. I can't quite say where to draw the line on who should and who shouldn't, but I sure can find some cases upon which we could unanimously agree...

And you also seem to be suggesting that you know, despite their procreative success, that dumb people are not the natural result of the evolutionary process.
I had never considered this possibility. I am now very, very scared.

And just to push this further, if you're so smart, why didn't you answer the entire question asked, i.e. how we can produce these people AND sleep at night? ;)
Despite my elitist tone, I am but a dunce myself. At best, all I can offer is a strong drink. It's been known to induce both procreation and sleep.

[JJuggle]

Everyone can enjoy the benefits of modern medicine, law, etc. but not everyone should be allowed to reproduce. I can't quite say where to draw the line on who should and who shouldn't, but I sure can find some cases upon which we could unanimously agree...
Well, perhaps we can agree that YOU are the one we can unanimously agree on. These ideas put you in good company, Godwin's law notwithstanding, most notably Adolf Hitler and the Nazi practice of eugenics.

I don't mean to be harsh, but frankly, what you're suggesting is among the scariest thoughts I seen expressed by someone I have considered to be otherwise quite intelligent and rational. I have to believe that you will reconsider these ideas.

[dudewithasock]

Well, perhaps we can agree that YOU are the one we can unanimously agree on. These ideas put you in good company, Godwin's law notwithstanding, most notably Adolf Hitler and the Nazi practice of eugenics.

I don't mean to be harsh, but frankly, what you're suggesting is among the scariest thoughts I seen expressed by someone I have considered to be otherwise quite intelligent and rational. I have to believe that you will reconsider these ideas.

Knowing Jason, it's probably all in the name of sarcasm anyway. ;)

[Borges]

My sick and twisted solution to this problem is to regulate the balance at the source... those who procreate. Everyone can enjoy the benefits of modern medicine, law, etc. but not everyone should be allowed to reproduce. I can't quite say where to draw the line on who should and who shouldn't, but I sure can find some cases upon which we could unanimously agree...

There have been a few cases where authorities have taken away a child right after it was born. It was done because the parents where judged to pose an immediate threat to the child.
I think in those cases it would have been better if the child hadn't been concieved.

[abbabibble]

Ladies and gentlemen I present to you the answer to a question by the winner of Miss Teen USA:

Judge: What does Integrity mean to you?

Miss Montana: Integrity...to me...means....making a goal...and working towards the goal...and staying with the goal...till you reach the end of that goal....thats what integrity means to me.


How are we, as a society, able to produce these types of people...and still find ways to sleep at night?


that is exactly why i have bouts of insomnia sometimes.

[JJuggle]

There have been a few cases where authorities have taken away a child right after it was born. It was done because the parents where judged to pose an immediate threat to the child.
I think in those cases it would have been better if the child hadn't been concieved.
There's a wide ocean between protecting a child and regulating who is and is not fit to bear one.

[maestro8]

There's a wide ocean between protecting a child and regulating who is and is not fit to bear one.
Is there really? In either case you're separating a parent from his/her (potential) child. What's the difference?

I'm not really arguing for eugenics, but I'm all for promoting thoughtful conception. I'm not saying people shouldn't have kids, but I'm saying people shouldn't have kids "by accident" or "on a whim". I'm not saying we should impose anything on people who conceive, but I am saying people who conceive should be able to bear the imposition of having a child... and not just by stuffing them with McDonalds and sitting them in front of the TV every night.

Let's just say I'd like to see some accountability tied to the freedom of procreation.

This planet is too small for everyone to be carelessly flooding it with human tissue. If we don't regulate it, mother nature will, and she'll make everyone quite miserable in the process.

[JJuggle]

Let's just say I'd like to see some accountability tied to the freedom of procreation.
Can you be specific beyond what it is you'd like to see? What would you be willing to see done to further these ends?

[iridemymuni]

i dont think that it's anybody's right to tell a lady she does not have the right to give birth because she may be a bad mother in the future.

[tomtrevor]

probably not

[Borges]

There's a wide ocean between protecting a child and regulating who is and is not fit to bear one.
Yes and no. On one hand it's all regulating who's allowed to have children. In that sense Hitler and me are at different ends of the same scale wrt. this question. On the other hand there is a differenc between regulating for the sake of the child and for the sake of society.

I was submitting it as a suggestion for a case "upon which we could unanimously agree", but now that I think about it only works if you find it ok to impose the restriction for the greater good, rather than for the sake of the child.

It's a rather philosophical differense, but important nevertheless.

[BluntRM]

Anyways freedom of choice is rather presumptive for a culture that rarely expresses it beyond consumerism. Intelligence is the most offensive part of progress, a person can accept a lot of things as long as they aren't brought to bear in any real perspective. Delusion and ignorance are great ways to deal with a minimum wage job, alienating social trends, or the individual's unconcious disenfranchisment. Yeah, that's a good way to sleep. :)

[BillyTheMountain]

the miss indiana was a senior at my school last year...

Chase

Private or public high school?

And what's the gossip about all her boyfriends, and when she got really drunk and ....

[BillyTheMountain]

Anyways freedom of choice is rather presumptive for a culture that rarely expresses it beyond consumerism. Intelligence is the most offensive part of progress, a person can accept a lot of things as long as they aren't brought to bear in any real perspective. Delusion and ignorance are great ways to deal with a minimum wage job, alienating social trends, or the individual's unconcious disenfranchisment. Yeah, that's a good way to sleep. :)

Raphael,

You were so quick to recognize that my brain has migrated to ... Where is Blunt Ryan from? Virginia? Because now Blunt Ryan has something to say, and says it bluntly, while BTM is just confused and saying nothing, like a left wing George Bush. Yes, I am Blunt RM.

Billy

[BluntRM]

Raphael,

You were so quick to recognize that my brain has migrated to ... Where is Blunt Ryan from? Virginia? Because now Blunt Ryan has something to say, and says it bluntly, while BTM is just confused and saying nothing, like a left wing George Bush. Yes, I am Blunt RM.

Billy

huh?

[BillyTheMountain]

huh?

Remember when Raphael thought you were me. It's because we're just the same, we talk alike, we ride alike, we think alike. I'm twice your age, that's the only difference. And I work at Wal-mArt.

Billy

[JJuggle]

Remember when Raphael thought you were me. It's because we're just the same, we talk alike, we ride alike, we think alike. I'm twice your age, that's the only difference. And I work at Wal-mArt.
Had I not dumped a cup of coffee into my laptop yesterday morning, I would have addressed this matter much sooner. I expected BluntRM to have a reaction something like what s/he did. All I can say is I hold firm. Next time Billy, let a decent amount of time go by before responding to yourself. It aids in the deception. Also, try writing in a style that isn't so blatantly, or bluntly, similar to your own, i.e. not in aphorisms.

[BluntRM]

I'm not sure I know how to respond to cultural observations without aphorisms. Polemics? Semantics? Anyways I've obviously stepped in the middle of something...

I'm NOT Billy.

Ryan M. Blunt
Unicyclist
Richmond, VA

[MuniAddict]

I'm not sure I know how to respond to cultural observations without aphorisms. Polemics? Semantics? Anyways I've obviously stepped in the middle of something...

I'm NOT Billy.

Ryan M. Blunt
Unicyclist
Richmond, VANice avatar! Too bad Castro's still breathing! Hopefully he'll die a miserable death SOON! That will be a happy day indeed!

[JJuggle]

Nice avatar! Too bad Castro's still breathing! Hopefully he'll die a miserable death SOON! That will be a happy day indeed!
I usually reserve sentiments like that for people like Cindy Adams or that guy who does the OxyClean commercials.

[BluntRM]

Yeah, unfortunatley the main drawback of the Marxist-Leninist organization is a patent inability to replenish the vanguard. Romantacism loves a revolution and any idea that can be made iconic lasts well beyond it's years, to it's own detriment to be certain.

But I do think Cuban healthcare is an applicable model of development regardless of Castroism. :)

[MuniAddict]

I usually reserve sentiments like that for people like Cindy Adams or that guy who does the OxyClean commercials.I don't know who cindy adams is, but I must strongly concur with you on Oxy-man!:eek: Edit...I just googled cindy adams, and I'll agree with you on her too, simply based on her horrific effigy!

[JJuggle]

But I do think Cuban healthcare is an applicable model of development regardless of Castroism. :)
Indeed. (Yes, I read the whole thing.)

The Cuban Solution; Melissa Mitchell wants to be a doctor to tend to the poor. But the Howard Unversity undergrad was too poor herself to attend med school. That's when Cuba's maximum leader offered a helping hand
Cindy Loose
4516 words
23 July 2006
The Washington Post
FINAL
W12
English
Copyright 2006, The Washington Post Co. All Rights Reserved

A single candle casts a faint but warm light on the dark wood of a dining room table in Havana. The neighborhood has been hit with one of the rolling blackouts that occasionally plague the city, but Melissa Mitchell and Revery Barnes are determined to cram all night for their final exam in hematology and endocrinology anyway.

Revery straps a miner-style flashlight onto her head as Melissa sets up a battery-operated laptop filled with notes. They pile heavy medical textbooks on the floor, pull their chairs close together and prop open one textbook between them.

Back when Melissa was a premed student at Howard University, studying in the dark was never an issue. But this isn't Washington. This is Cuba, where Melissa, Revery and 95 other Americans are studying medicine in a country that's been an anathema to the United States for almost five decades. Thanks to Fidel Castro, their education is free. But that doesn't mean they aren't paying a price for turning to Cuba in their quest to become doctors. They've given up creature comforts most Americans take for granted, struggled to master hematology and other complicated subjects in a foreign language, and have no guarantees they will get a chance to practice medicine in the United States.

Right now, though, Melissa, 25, and Revery, 26, aren't thinking about any of that. Melissa, a third-year student, says she has to do well on this test because the professor is on her case. Cuban doctors place a premium on basic skills -- interpreting breath sounds from a stethoscope, for instance -- that have been deemphasized in the high-tech world of U.S. medicine. Not long ago during rounds, Melissa's professor exploded at her when he asked for a diagnosis of a patient, and she replied that the lab results weren't back yet.

"Are you planning to become a doctor or a lab analyst?" he growled. "Tell me what you heard and felt and saw."

To study for the exam, Melissa and Revery have already walked a couple of miles from the blackout-darkened dorms at Salvador Allende Hospital in central Havana to a Cuban friend's house. They were hoping that this neighborhood near the famous Malecon would still have electricity. No such luck.

"I reviewed anemia already," Melissa tells Revery. "I'll teach you anemia if you do diabetes" with me. Revery tilts her head low to illuminate a page, and they get to work.

Within a few hours, their last candle sputters out. The laptop is already dead. Soon the flashlight batteries lose strength, dimming the light from bright white to dingy yellow. Before being plunged into pitch blackness, the two begin packing up, filling backpacks with notes and books. The plan: walk back to the dorm because maybe lights have returned to that part of town. If not, Melissa's Cuban boyfriend has a flashlight. They'll walk to his house to borrow it.

"We can't complain," says Melissa, whose almond-shaped eyes make her look a little like a stylized portrait of Nefertiti. "We knew what it was going to be like when we signed up."

[JJuggle]

HOW BADLY DOES MELISSA MITCHELL WANT TO BE A DOCTOR? Badly enough to learn Spanish and commit to living in Havana for more than six years -- double the time it would take her to complete medical school in the United States. Badly enough to live as Cuban students do, in cramped dorms without air conditioning, eating rice and beans and little else. (The simplest things -- a phone call home, a soda or candy bar, checking e-mail -- are usually out of reach for students living on a monthly stipend of about $4.) Badly enough to defy a U.S. ban on travel to Cuba to be here.

Melissa knew when she accepted Castro's offer of room, board and tuition that relations between her own government and her benefactor were antagonistic at best. Last year she and her American classmates were ordered home by the Bush administration as part of a series of moves to tighten the 44-year-old embargo against Cuba. A few students abandoned their medical studies and returned to the United States, but most, including Melissa, stayed. Eventually, the administration relented and agreed to give the students temporary travel permits, which will be up for renewal next year.

The Americans are operating on faith that their Cuban education will prepare them to pass tough U.S. licensing exams. Even though their medical studies are in Spanish, they must pass the exams in English. Melissa has no idea how she will pay for the exams, which collectively cost more than $2,000, let alone the review courses that most students, U.S. and foreign, routinely take to prepare for them. Most of her classmates are in the same boat.

She and the others face another, longer-term challenge: winning admission to a U.S. residency program. Because the first class of Americans studying in Cuba won't graduate until next year, no one knows how their education will be viewed back home. And, of course, there is no guarantee that, if the aging Castro were to leave office or die, his successor would agree that the impoverished island should continue to pay for the education of students from one of the richest nations on earth.

Castro offered the medical scholarships six years ago, after hosting a dinner for visiting members of the Congressional Black Caucus. Rep. Bennie Thompson (D-Miss.) remembers sitting with Castro in the summer of 2000 and being impressed at Castro's command of U.S. statistics on such things as infant mortality and the number of medically uninsured. Castro talked about the thousands of Cuban doctors working in Africa and Latin America, and about training tens of thousands of foreign medical students.

Medicine has long been Castro's most effective foreign policy tool. According to Cuba's foreign ministry, this year alone Cuba is training 20,000 foreigners to be doctors, nurses and dentists, most free of charge. More than 2,500 Cuban doctors are treating earthquake victims in remote parts of Pakistan. In the past two years, the ministry says, Cuban specialists have performed eye surgery on 209,103 foreigners, including 157,000 from Venezuela, whose leftist president has forged close ties to Castro and sells Cuba cheap oil.

Thompson mentioned that some areas of his district in northwestern Mississippi were woefully underserved by doctors, and he remembers Castro saying: "We would love to help you address some of those inequities. If the Black Caucus can identify students who are willing to come and attend medical school, we make that offer free of charge." Soon afterward, Castro announced he was offering up to 500 scholarships for American students who were committed to serving impoverished U.S. communities but were unable to afford medical school.

From the beginning, the program has faced fierce opposition in the United States. "There were a lot of naysayers and critics," acknowledges the Rev. Lucius Walker Jr., head of the New York-based Pastors for Peace, which, along with the Interreligious Foundation for Community Organization, selects students and administers the program stateside.

While the Cuban foreign ministry praises the scholarships as an example of Castro's humanitarianism, his opponents contend that the offer was calculated to embarrass the United States. "This is pure propaganda, and the students are Castro's propaganda tools," says Ninoska Perez-Castello, a South Florida radio personality and a founder of the Cuba Liberty Council, an anti-Castro group. "I don't believe in the generosity of a dictator who crushes the skulls of his own people."

The Bush administration initially sided with the critics. But when it demanded that the students return home last year, the Black Caucus erupted. According to Walker, Colin Powell quietly persuaded the administration to back off, at least temporarily. "If our critics are willing to work with us to get more financial resources for medical care and training, I'm willing to listen," says Thompson. "Until then, I will fight to save this opportunity."

Such opportunities are scarce. Most U.S. medical students are both white and well-off. Only 6 percent of students entering medical school in 2000 were from families earning less than $50,000 a year; only 6 percent of doctors in the United States are black, Hispanic or Native American, according to a 2004 report by the Sullivan Commission on Diversity in the Healthcare Workforce.

The United States once had a successful program similar to the one being offered by Cuba: The National Health Service Corps Scholarship Program offered thousands of Americans free tuition and expenses in return for later practicing in areas that needed more doctors. Minorities relied heavily on the program: In 1980, one of every four black medical students had a corps scholarship.

But the Reagan administration began slashing the program each budget year. In 1981, the corps offered 6,159 scholarships. In 1982, the number was cut to 2,449. Last year, the corps awarded 90 new scholarships.

MELISSA WAS 7 WHEN SHE DECIDED TO BECOME A DOCTOR. At the time, she was watching a favorite aunt -- the one everyone said she resembled -- waste away from cancer. Melissa would sit with her for hours, bringing her water and food.

"Melissa thought that if she were a doctor she could have saved her aunt," remembers Melissa's grandmother Rosetta Hughes. "No one could talk her out of that notion."

At her high school in Houston, Melissa loaded up on as many science courses as possible. She won a full scholarship to Howard, where she graduated as a premed student with a 3.2 grade-point average. She'd saved $1,600 from a part-time job at Howard to pay for the Medical College Admission Test and a prep course. The prep course turned out to be a study in disillusionment.

"They recommended we apply to no less than 14 schools, and each school application costs at least $200. I'd just spent two years saving the $1,600, and now I need another $2,800 just to apply to schools? Then, if you're lucky and a school calls you, you have to fly there and stay in a hotel. They even had the finite details about what to wear, and you'd have to buy a business suit, and everything was more money and more money and more money, and even then maybe you wouldn't get in."

Somehow, she figured, she would find the money, even if she had to delay going. But she worried that she'd be left with huge loans, which would make it difficult for her to afford to practice in a poor neighborhood, as she'd always planned. Besides, the prep class was "a reality check about the whole medical school thing." She hated the feeling of exclusivity, the fact that most of the other students had at least one parent who was already a doctor, and the chatter about which specialties paid the best. "One thing sticks in my head," Melissa says. "A student mentioned she worked in a cancer clinic, and someone asked what she did. She said, 'Oh, I just check them in. I give people hope.' She said it in this joking, dismissive way. But giving people hope is a beautiful thing."

After graduation from Howard, Melissa took a job at the nonprofit Youth Law Center in the District. Occasionally she'd look up medical schools on the Web, but everything she saw just discouraged her.

Then, one Sunday morning at Rev. Willie Wilson's Union Temple Church in Southeast Washington, she saw a blurb in the church bulletin about scholarships to study medicine in Cuba. She wrote to the Cuban Interests Section in Washington, and months later a packet of information arrived. Her mind was made up the moment she opened it.

"The brochure wasn't fancy," Melissa recalls, "but it had a lot of feeling to it. You could tell the resources were really basic, but even that appealed to me. It had a picture of an entire class of students gathered around a microscope. There were pictures of doctors giving physical exams in houses with dirt floors, with chickens around them. The imagery called out to me."

There weren't any tests or expensive prep courses required, just a $100 application fee. Melissa simply contacted the program administrators in the United States. A committee of physicians screens the students. Those who have the drive and education to succeed are encouraged to apply, and those who apply are usually accepted by the Cubans.

Melissa says only two things gave her pause: There was no hot water in the dorms, and there were no toilet seats. "I knew I'd get used to not having hot water. But no toilet seats? How does that work?"

[JJuggle]

MELISSA AND THE STUDENTS WITH WHOM SHE'D BE SPENDING THE NEXT SIX YEARS BOARDED A PLANE IN NEW YORK FOR CANCUN, where they stayed the night before flying, without U.S. permission, into Havana. The weeks before the flight were crazy with packing and shopping and saying goodbye. It wasn't until they finally landed in Cuba and were greeted by officials with mojitos that Melissa felt herself relaxing.

"Transitioning out was harder than transitioning in," she says. "I felt I was moving from a complicated, high-tech life into something very simple."

She'd seen a video about the Latin American School of Medicine. The main campus, where she would spend her first 2 1/2 years, is about a 45-minute drive from downtown Havana and sits along a sandy white beach pounded by the Atlantic. A series of two-story buildings ramble around the property lush with flowers and trees, but life inside is military style. The walled compound was a naval base that Castro turned into a medical school to train students from all over Latin America. There is a separate medical school for French-speaking Africans and Haitians.

During the week, Melissa and the other students were confined to the walled compound, with freedom to leave between Friday afternoon and Sunday evening only if they'd followed the rules and done well in their studies. As an adult, Melissa found it hard to "have people telling you what you could and couldn't do." But she didn't mind the confinement during the week: She needed every moment she had to study. That first semester, she says, she sometimes spent an hour stumbling through a single page of Spanish.

Most weekends, she took a break from studying by finding a quiet spot on the beach, her only real escape from the cramped, overcrowded dorms. Before arriving in Cuba, Melissa had talked to people who'd visited Cuba, "but no one had experienced dorm life, which is extreme even for Cubans."

Melissa shared a room with 20 other American students: 10 bunk beds less than an arm's length from one another. A small locker held all her belongings, plus the belongings of the person in another bunk. She shared a bathroom -- 10 sinks, 10 showers and 10 toilets, san seats -- with 120 other students. Water was turned off from 8 or 9 p.m. until 6 a.m. When the Americans first arrived, there were rumors that their rooms were better, that they had televisions and even refrigerators. Then a hurricane hit. Students from other countries around the world were moved into the American dorm, and everyone realized there were no differences.

Every month each student was allotted two rolls of toilet paper, two bars of soap and, for the women, a pack of sanitary napkins. "Even when you had money, sometimes the school store didn't have toilet paper to sell," Melissa says. "If they didn't have it, you didn't have it." She and Revery laugh when repeating a running joke in the dorm. Anytime a classmate asked where some missing item might be, someone invariably replied, "I used it for toilet paper."

Melissa says food represented the hardest adjustment that first year -- harder even than the struggle with Spanish. "When I first got there, it was rice and beans every day. Then after a while they didn't have beans, and had soup instead, and I'd be like, I'd just die for some beans. I'd be hungry before lunch, and walk out of lunch hungry. But after a while your body gets used to eating less, and you don't want as much." Even now, though she sometimes dreams about Einstein bagels. After finishing her second year of medical school, Melissa moved to the dorms at Salvador Allende Hospital, where the food is better. "Every Monday is chicken Monday. You get a piece of chicken, so that's always fun."

She and Revery have helped each other through all the challenges of going to medical school in Cuba. They hit it off from the moment they met, Melissa says: "Our visions and goals and personalities are very similar."

Revery is one of the few white Americans in the program. She says she grew up in a tough neighborhood in San Francisco, with an absent father and a mother who, at the time, was too ill to work. Revery dropped out of school when she was 13, but eventually earned a GED and got a job with a nonprofit as a street outreach worker. Often her clients, who included crack addicts and gang members, needed medical care, but it wasn't available. So Revery decided she'd offer the care, and started attending a junior college for the science courses she'd need to apply to a premed program. She heard about the medical program in Cuba from one of her teachers. Like Melissa, she didn't hesitate.

Last summer, Revery and Melissa scraped together the $678 airfare and $695 to take Step 1 of the U.S. Medical Licensing Exam. Revery's money came from activist friends in San Francisco, who took up a collection on her behalf. Melissa's money came from an aunt, who later lost her home and everything she owned in Hurricane Katrina. Neither young woman could afford the usual prep course. But Revery's sister gave her $300 to sign up for an online drill program. Revery offered to share the program with Melissa. They spent the six-week summer break studying together in Birmingham, Ala., where they lived with Melissa's 84-year-old grandmother, Rosetta.

Being back in the States was weird, Melissa says. She found herself amazed by how upset people got in the airport when a flight was delayed -- the sort of thing that might have upset her in the past, but now seemed petty, even funny, in the face of everyday realities in Havana. Most Americans have no idea how the rest of the world lives, she says.

[JJuggle]

Medical school administrators had told Melissa and Revery they should wait another year to take the test, arguing that the order of information they were learning was much different from in the United States. But the two had worried all year about the test and were determined to get it under their belts. Neither passed; Melissa missing by a few points, Revery by a wider margin.

When Melissa found out she'd failed, she began to cry. For the first time, she felt despair.

"I just crashed," she says. "I barely wanted to get out of bed in the morning. I started thinking, 'Why am I torturing myself? I'm 25 years old. I want to get married; I want to have kids. I have a degree. Anytime, I could go home and get a job and live comfortably.'"

After a few weeks, she pulled herself together, she says, "by reminding myself what needs to change in the American health care system and why I need to play a role in that process." While she's reluctant to talk much about Castro or communism, she does admire Cuba's stated goal of providing medical care to all of its citizens. Health care, she says, should be a right, not a privilege. "If you're not going to give a break to someone when they're sick, when are you ever going to give them a break?"

During summers with her grandmother in Alabama, she's volunteered at a free medical clinic, where she says there's been real appreciation for the skills she's learned in Cuba. "I've gotten to know a doctor in Birmingham who has worked all over the world. He worked in West Africa on disaster relief, and American doctors were, like, 'I don't have this, I don't have that,' but the Cuban doctors just went to work," she says.

The doctor, Tom Ellison, a Birmingham cardiologist and epidemiologist, says Melissa has the makings of a great doctor. "On rides on our mobile clinic to an impoverished rural area outside Birmingham, I saw her dedication, her work ethic, her rapport with patients," Ellison says.

One night he took her to an emergency room where he has privileges, and an ambulance brought in a man whose eye was hanging from its socket. "Some of the hospital's students had to leave the room, but she was right in there, eager to learn and see," says Ellison. He's hoping that the hospital officials who've seen Melissa working from the mobile clinic will offer her a residency in Alabama. Once she clears that hurdle, he says, "I'd hire her in a minute."

Melissa, who is scheduled to graduate in the spring of 2009, says it should help that she and her classmates are "not looking for the prestigious residencies; we want to do work no one else wants to do.

"Besides," she says, "I believe I was born to do this, so it will happen."

A SERIES OF GRACEFUL, SPANISH-STYLE BUILDINGS WITH TILED ROOFS, each circled by wide porches, cluster around a leafy square on the campus of Salvador Allende Hospital. It's reminiscent of the European hospitals shown in old World War II movies, where wounded American soldiers would convalesce -- and usually fall in love with a nurse -- before heading home.

Melissa, who has just finished her hematology and endocrinology exam, emerges from one building looking shellshocked.

She and Revery never did find a flashlight last night: They went to Melissa's boyfriend's house, but he was out and had taken the flashlight with him. And she thinks she blew the test. Part of it required matching diseases to symptoms, and, although some of the choices made no sense, she tried to match everything. Only after class did she realize that not all of the diseases had a match. The professor had talked so fast that only the Cubans understood the directions. If she's failed, she'll get a second chance to retake it. After that, failure would mean the cancellation of her summer break -- and repetition of the course in the fall.

Narciso Ortiz, a student from New Jersey who is the elected head of the American student body, fears he blew the test as well. But Ortiz is the fixer, the leader, and he focuses on trying to comfort Melissa. They also discuss whether she can switch from working in one ward at Salavador Allende to one headed by a doctor she particularly likes. Narciso promises to set up a meeting for her with the hospital administrator.

With eyes bloodshot from lack of sleep, Melissa heads off to take a shower and then a nap.

THE OLD MAN'S EYES LIGHT UP WHEN MELISSA ENTERS HIS ROOM. He lies in a white metal, hand-cranked hospital bed but struggles to sit when she arrives. She helps him get upright. He jerks when she puts the cold metal of her stethoscope against his bare chest. They both giggle for a minute, then chat as she warms the stethoscope by rubbing it against her palm before trying again.

As a third-year student, Melissa is assigned two beds in this ward, where she works six mornings a week before attending lectures in the afternoon. Once a week, she also works an overnight shift at the emergency room. Sundays are free, except when her emergency room duties fall on that day. Sometimes, especially on Saturday mornings, she doesn't feel like getting up. But always, there are the patients to inspire her to roll out of bed. "I don't want them getting bounced around among different people," she says.

The opportunity to work with patients very early in her training has been the biggest advantage of studying medicine in Cuba, Melissa says. Often the equipment available is basic, but, in some ways, that's an advantage, too, she says. Sometimes, the only needles available are the big old-fashioned, reusable kind, and if you can give a painless injection with those, you can certainly do it with the thin needles used in the United States. She's looking forward to "playing with the high-tech toys" available in the States, but figures she's better off learning to work without them for now.

She sweats as she makes her way around the ward, 20 rooms that hold 40 beds in a one-story building. There is no air conditioning, but it's a graceful old building with high ceilings and white walls with decorative tiles stretching waist high. Each room has two doors, one leading to the central hallway, the other to the porch that wraps around the building. Beside each bed is a folding beach chair for visitors.

Melissa has a new patient in the bed next to the old man. Melissa looks at an X-ray of the patient's lungs. She notes their elongation. It's a sign, she tells me later, of emphysema.

Once she finishes examining her patients, she joins the other medical students for rounds, visiting each room with a supervising doctor. Melissa presents her new patient, offering her opinion of what's wrong. The X-rays are passed around and discussed. It's pretty much like rounds on every TV hospital drama ever broadcast.

Before she leaves the ward, Melissa fills out her patients' charts, then heads outside into the sultry air. After lunch, there will be hours of lectures, then hours of study. But it's a Monday. So today, she notes happily, the cafeteria will be serving chicken.

[BluntRM]

Good article. Medical care should be the focus of all socialism as the original point of divergence, away from market values and towards human values.

[JJuggle]

Good article. Medical care should be the focus of all socialism as the original point of divergence, away from market values and towards human values.
Why, as opposed to food or shelter?

[Naomi]

[QUOTES=maestro8]
Part A: We can produce these people because there's no license required for having children. We've dumbed down society to the point where Darwin can no longer "do his work" and a myriad of stupid people are multiplying like so many rabbits.

By definition, evolution is brought about through the process of natural selection. Unfortunately, our society is doing their damndest to eliminate any occurence of natural selection.

Now while I appreciate the results of some of these efforts (c'mon, you have to admit modern medicine is pretty amazing) I don't appreciate that it's messing with the balance of stupid in the gene pool. My sick and twisted solution to this problem is to regulate the balance at the source... those who procreate. Everyone can enjoy the benefits of modern medicine, law, etc. but not everyone should be allowed to reproduce. I can't quite say where to draw the line on who should and who shouldn't, but I sure can find some cases upon which we could unanimously agree...

I'm not really arguing for eugenics, but I'm all for promoting thoughtful conception. I'm not saying people shouldn't have kids, but I'm saying people shouldn't have kids "by accident" or "on a whim". I'm not saying we should impose anything on people who conceive, but I am saying people who conceive should be able to bear the imposition of having a child... and not just by stuffing them with McDonalds and sitting them in front of the TV every night.

Let's just say I'd like to see some accountability tied to the freedom of procreation.

This planet is too small for everyone to be carelessly flooding it with human tissue. If we don't regulate it, mother nature will, and she'll make everyone quite miserable in the process.

[/ENDQUOTES]




I had intended to keep well out of this, but my fingers have been twitching to type. Some interesting views you hold there Maestro, and as has been pointed out, some of them have been held in the past by not very nice people. But also some of what you say is very important too.

Lets take " a myriad of stupid people are multiplying like rabbits" : Mankind has always multiplied like rabbits, the population has ever grown, tempered only by disease, droughts, famines and war. This growth has applied to both the stupid and the smart.

However it would be true to say that today, in general terms, the smart people are voluntarily restricting their breeding success, rather than that the stupid people have upped their birth rate. Survival of the fittest? Or the fittest voluntarily eliminating themselves? Of course you have then to define the fittest. It's not so long ago that the fittest was the big dumbo who could throw a spear hard enough to penetrate the mammoth's hide. That thin shortsighted lad, sitting around inventing the wheel, was not very likely to be at the dinner table.

Survival of the fittest only works where it is unfettered by religious, moral, social, medical science and political constraints. It no longer applies in anything like its full form to most modern human populations. If survival of the fittest is not working then the conclusion is that no longer do we have a situation where only the fittest survive. As such we are of course affecting the current gene pool and in the longer term, human evolution.

But what happens if we artificially restrict breeding? Stop one section of the population from breeding and you risk reducing the overall gene pool, and thus restricting our ability as humans to evolve in the future. And just how disenchanted are those "castrated" people going to be? Just about the best recipe for civil unrest that I can think of short of machine gunning their existing offspring.

But with 6 billion people in the world, do we need to apply restrictions on births? On this I certainly agree. Much of this population is artificially supported by oil, with its ability to produce fertilisers and to transport foodstuffs etc. When that runs out, as it soon will, we have problems far greater than the loss of our ability to manufacture unicycles.

Religion has been one of our problems here: the catholics define contraception as a sin, and "He has 5 kids: he is being a good Jewish boy", is a sentence I heard recently from a Jewish friend of mine. Other pressures exist for population growth. Asian extended families, and the implied view that children are required in order to look after the parents in old age. Families who must have at least one son to continue the family line.
In the UK, the government has spent the money people have paid into their government pension schemes, a financial problem, a pensions crisis, is now looming, and so there are murmurs that the population must increase, so that, as a collection of new taxpayers, it can pay for the imminent metamorphis of large numbers of "baby boomers" into pensioners. Do they not see the cyclic and exponential effect of that process? France has ever encouraged larger families, although not, it would seem, as a means of generating more peace keeping troops for the Lebanon.
Just a few examples there.

So how do we reduce family size, and thereby population? Eugenic ideals are certainly not the way to go. They are intrinsically unfair and would cause all hell to break out. Instead it will require worldwide governmental initiatives, all of which will be highly unpopular. And these may well have some undesired effects. We all know that the Chinese "one child" rule has led to the killing of many a newborn girl. In other cultures a similar thing is happening, but with different causes. India: the Punjab is just one region of the country where female foeticide is rife. Sex determination testing in the last 30 years has enabled many "smart/rich" parents to dodge expensive problems created by the dowry system, and to ensure they have sons to perform the last rites for their fathers.

A statistic and a statement by an Indian villager:

"Punjab has the lowest sex ratio in the country and there are only 776 girls for every 1,000 boys in the state up to the age of six years."

"Encouraged by our unusual celebrations, the sarpanch of the much larger adjacent village, Bandala, told the gathering she was 'ashamed' that, of the last 100 births in her own village, only 15 were girls."

Now move twenty years hence, and the marriage market in China, India and elsewhere is skewed to the point where there will certainly be unrest amongst young males eager to maintain their family line.

So any government activity to control population needs to be very well thought out.


In conclusion, I don't know how we are going to control human numbers, but as Maestro has also said, if we don't find a way of doing it, then nature will be sure to step in and do it for us. And I would bet 90% or more of us will not enjoy the process. I cannot be other than worried that this event will begin during my lifetime. Oil, or lack of it, will probably play its part.


Nao...... handing the discussion over to the God botherers now.

[GILD]

if we don't find a way of doing it, then nature will be sure to step in and do it for us
Can you say AIDS?
And since you don't have to be a rocket-scientist to not get it...

In the meantime, I remain vehemen (http://www.vhemt.org/)t.

[BillyTheMountain]

Thanks for some great reading, Raphael. Only me and Ryan will actually do the reading. And the USA owes Castro a debt of gratitude for training doctors to work in the USA's poverty areas!

Had I not dumped a cup of coffee into my laptop yesterday morning, I would have addressed this matter much sooner. I expected BluntRM to have a reaction something like what s/he did. All I can say is I hold firm. Next time Billy, let a decent amount of time go by before responding to yourself. It aids in the deception. Also, try writing in a style that isn't so blatantly, or bluntly, similar to your own, i.e. not in aphorisms.

I'm not sure I know how to respond to cultural observations without aphorisms. Polemics? Semantics? Anyways I've obviously stepped in the middle of something...

I'm NOT Billy.

Ryan M. Blunt
Unicyclist
Richmond, VA

OK Ryan. Let's come clean and give up this charade. Me and you are the same person. My name is actually Ryan, too, so that's a giveaway.

And has anyone ever really SEEN you? Have you ever showed up for NAUCC or UNICON or the Northeast MUni gathering, like I have? We've never been seen together. Like Clark Kent and Superman, that raises suspicions.....

Good article. Medical care should be the focus of all socialism as the original point of divergence, away from market values and towards human values.

Education should be the focus of all socialism as the original point of divergence, away from market values and towards human values.

Billy

Finance and marketing should be the focus of all socialism as the original point of divergence, away from market values and towards human values.

Ryan

Music videos and using sex to sell should be the focus of all socialism as the original point of divergence, away from market values and towards human values.

--?

[Naomi]

Can you say AIDS?
And since you don't have to be a rocket-scientist to not get it...

In the meantime, I remain vehemen (http://www.vhemt.org/)t.


That's quite a website Gild, and also leads to some excellent links. Had I known about it I might have posted a link and saved writing most of my words in the post.


Nao

[GILD]

JJuggle mentioned the site q (http://www.unicyclist.com/forums/showthread.php?p=226271&highlight=vhemt#post226271)uite a while ago.
I've joined the Yahoo discussion gro (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Voluntary_Human_Extinction/)up as well.
Some very entertaining and thought-provoking discussion.

[maestro8]

In the meantime, I remain vehemen (http://www.vhemt.org/)t.
As do I. I guess it's inevitable... as Naomi said, the sentient beings will self-exterminate whilst the sheep of the world continue to multiply. Stupidity will take over the Earth, depelete it of all its life-sustaining resources, and become extinguished like a candle in a jar.

The Earth heals herself, mother nature kicks back into gear, stupid people reappear, the cycle begins again. Meh. We're in an infinitely recursive loop of stupidity.

[JJuggle]

As do I. I guess it's inevitable... as Naomi said, the sentient beings will self-exterminate whilst the sheep of the world continue to multiply. Stupidity will take over the Earth, depelete it of all its life-sustaining resources, and become extinguished like a candle in a jar.

The Earth heals herself, mother nature kicks back into gear, stupid people reappear, the cycle begins again. Meh. We're in an infinitely recursive loop of stupidity.
Yet it is not the "stupid" people creating the mind-numbing mass produced entertainment, it is not the "stupid" people who created nuclear weapons or reactors, it is not the "stupid" people running the corporations that are deforesting the planet or dumping toxins into the waters, and it is not the "stupid" people who are behind the wars for resources. I'd be willing to bet that the creative minds, executives, and politicos behind all those things are well above average intelligence and well below average numbers of offspring.

[BluntRM]

Why, as opposed to food or shelter?

I don't believe rapid changes can be made to all economic sectors and be simultaneously successful without creating an impossible matrix within those relationships and there is no obvious pattern of supply to follow for the reliable distribution of food or shelter.

Besides being a direct ethical choice, the healthcare sector lends itself to intensive state regulations and useable beuracracies; the essential tension of these organizations is born out of active capital relationships that hinder universal care. It's really the best platform for the complete integration of a supply chain. Into this we may combine our already socialistic education system, vesting heavily in the population as a viable intellectual resource and, as the "barriers to access" are disassembled in one sector, we can then rationally apply this thread of economic connection across the board.

That's a brief summation.:)

[BluntRM]

Education should be the focus of all socialism as the original point of divergence, away from market values and towards human values.

Billy

Education is intregal, but industrial societies are geared towards application and my focus is not to create ideas without the material conditions to suit them first. That said, our public schools and universities provide a wide infrastructure with more than certain capabilities. They directly support every current economic sector and would continue to do so after socialism logistically re-maps capital driven markets. But they aren't the origen of economic drives, they're supplementary, so we must first 'translate' the platforms to supplement.:)

[monkeyman]

Yet it is not the "stupid" people creating the mind-numbing mass produced entertainment, it is not the "stupid" people who created nuclear weapons or reactors, it is not the "stupid" people running the corporations that are deforesting the planet or dumping toxins into the waters, and it is not the "stupid" people who are behind the wars for resources. I'd be willing to bet that the creative minds, executives, and politicos behind all those things are well above average intelligence and well below average numbers of offspring.

Heh, they may technically not be "stupid-with-a-low-IQ" but they certainly are doing stupid things. They'll eventually be forced to pay the same price as us. :(

[koebwil]

Back to the BMT. The corporate line is that it means Bigger, Meatier, Tastier. Cause it certainly doesn't mean bacon, mayo tomato! But its real orgin is in the BMT subway line, in New York. Yes, all that crazy NYC subway wallpaper in there has something to do with something! BMT sands for Brooklyn-Manhattan Transit, and is a throwback to the days when the various subways in the city were separate corporate identities. Now they are all connected under the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey (the same company that owned the World Trade Center). Mmmm. I'd like one of those Brooklyn-Manhattan Transit sandwiches. Sort of conjures up smells of the subway...
Why the hell do you know this? Did you take sandwich history in college?

[johnfoss]

Why the hell do you know this?
My wife asks me that often, about all the other stupid facts that won't get out of my head. For example. If you're in downtown Detroit and start heading due south, what's the first foreign country you'll get to?

Did you take sandwich history in college?
No, it was *Subway* history. :)

[Naomi]

Yet it is not the "stupid" people creating the mind-numbing mass produced entertainment, it is not the "stupid" people who created nuclear weapons or reactors, it is not the "stupid" people running the corporations that are deforesting the planet or dumping toxins into the waters, and it is not the "stupid" people who are behind the wars for resources. I'd be willing to bet that the creative minds, executives, and politicos behind all those things are well above average intelligence and well below average numbers of offspring.


Indeed, the "stupid" could never have created such entertainment. They lack the vision to see that there is a good profit to be made, a more comfortable life to be gained. The selfish gene theory often does not seem to apply much beyond one generation. But selfishness exists in abundance, the fast buck is avidly sought, and politicians and others that control our destiny rarely seem to look far beyond their own lifetimes. Any tweaking they do falls far short of effective measures, and is often mere tinkering around the edges. Such tinkering is then proclaimed as being radical action. They dare not of course take effective action, for that would lose votes from those stupid people, and loss of votes would mean loss of their power, loss of their salaries, a lessening of their cosseted confortable lives, and would provide the opportunity to let someone else do exactly the same thing. Those in power are living for the here and now, they know damn well what they are doing, and most don't really care.

The human brain has evolved far too much, far too fast, and has rapidly become a sledgehammer, able to do far more than just crack the hazelnut lying on the anvil. Such a brain seeks employment, seeks comfort for its host over and above that required, and spends its spare time mischievously designing Chernobyl, with little thought to wondering what might happen if someone presses the wrong button, or if there were to be a design or mechanical failure. I understand Einstein worried greatly about the possible outcome of e=mc2. Too late: he had told the politicians. The human mind has been programmed intensively, with few or zero built in safety measures. Like Chernobyl, it will sooner or later self destruct. The only question is, how much of the planet will it take with it?

Nao....Pessimistic? Who me?

The above is written in late night rant mode, and may be slightly tongue in cheek, but maybe not.

[JJuggle]

Indeed, the "stupid" could never have created such entertainment. They lack the vision to see...
Nao....Pessimistic? Who me?

The above is written in late night rant mode, and may be slightly tongue in cheek, but maybe not.
Naomi,

I'm fairly certain what you said was my point. Fairly certain. In any event, for a change, I think we agree.

I'm pessimistic, too, but don't think we have much choice but to try to make things better more or less.

[GILD]

Which brings me to Morrison Quote #3.

"I wanna have my kicks before the whole shithouse goes up in flames!"


(I quoted Morrison so often, my friends suggested I just number them and mention the numbers instead of the whole quote again. I still use the same quotes, I just have new friends now.)

[Naomi]

Naomi,

I'm fairly certain what you said was my point. Fairly certain. In any event, for a change, I think we agree.

I'm pessimistic, too, but don't think we have much choice but to try to make things better more or less.


Yes, I think we are in agreement here. Though a friend last night said:

"If we are going to self detruct, best do it sooner, rather than later, so as to minimize peripheral damage."

He might even have a point.

Nao

[JJuggle]

Yes, I think we are in agreement here. Though a friend last night said:

"If we are going to self detruct, best do it sooner, rather than later, so as to minimize peripheral damage."

He might even have a point.
Oddly enough though the Buddha did say life is suffering, I think the overall message would be to persist right up until the end, and I tend to agree.

[BillyTheMountain]

Oddly enough though the Buddha did say life is suffering, I think the overall message would be to persist right up until the end, and I tend to agree.

That is actually a widely held myth.

What Buddha actually is that suffering is the hangover the next day.

[JJuggle]

That is actually a widely held myth.

What Buddha actually is that suffering is the hangover the next day.
Billy, you are a widely held myth. I pray never elevated to legend.

[Gilby]

As do I. I guess it's inevitable... as Naomi said, the sentient beings will self-exterminate whilst the sheep of the world continue to multiply.

Huh? You must be lost, or soon to exterminate your genes, I guess. As a self-proclaimed sentient-being that understands evolution, it only makes sense for me to try to disperse my superior dna as much as possible. Therefore, the best case in today's quite unusual society, without legal responsibility to prevent me, is to donate my sperm to a sperm bank or more.

Afterall, it does make sense to donate my dna to people who are serious about raising a child and can best provide for that child, and therefore foster a good environment for ensuring the continuation of my dna.

While I could just give to the average randy woman, they are not in the same position to take care of my offspring as the couples that need sperm donations to procreate, nor are they in the position to cause major legal troubles for me.

:D

[GILD]

And you don't have to buy the spermbank dinner either.

[BillyTheMountain]

And you don't have to buy the spermbank dinner either.

Tonight's special: "The spermbank dinner"

MMMMmm, good!

I read this worng the first time.

[Naomi]

Tonight's special: "The spermbank dinner"

MMMMmm, good!

I read this worng the first time.


Ah ... memories of a certain Chinese meal a few years ago. There were perhaps a dozen of us, maybe a few more, gathered around a huge dim sum feast ordered by a Chinese friend. A few of the guests had never eaten Chinese before. One guy was struggling to cut a piece of waterchestnut jelly and finding the chopsticks in his hands might have had more effect on the golf course first tee. The jelly was a large and semi transparent green lump, suffused with streaks of paler milkiness. And it was slippery.

He finally gave up, and asked "What the hell is that anyway? Sperm Whale?"

Someone very rapidly retorted:
"No. whale sperm"

Much coughing and spluttering over the noodles ensued.


Nao

[Borges]

Tonight's special: "The spermbank dinner"

MMMMmm, good!

I read this worng the first time.

Milt (http://www.dlc.fi/~marianna/gourmet/milt.htm) is supposedly both delicious and healthy.

[siafirede]

I am glad to see that this year nothing has changed. I am a few weeks late on bumping this...I know, but I was just going through some old threads and came across this one.