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GILD
2006-05-09, 09:01 AM
Well, cou (http://www.democrats.com/node/8815)ld it?

Had he not been gunned down by National Guard troops on the Kent State University campus on May 4, 1970, Jeffrey Miller would be 56 years old this year. Instead, Miller's life ended at age 19 and the thing for which he will forever be remembered is being the body over which young Mary Ann Vecchio cried in despair in a Pulitzer Prize-winning photo that quickly came to symbolize a deeply-divided nation.

john_childs
2006-05-09, 10:02 AM
Well, cou (http://www.democrats.com/node/8815)ld it?
What a bunk essay with poor logic flow that just exploits the deaths of the students to make yet another bunk claim that we're going to have a military draft.

From the title and the first 5 paragraphs I was expecting the essay to be about how the National Guard fired on the student protesters. I was expecting the essay to explore whether that type of a situation could happen again. Could we have police, National Guard, military, or other force use deadly force against protesters protesting the war in Iraq and Afghanistan? That would be an interesting topic to explore.

But no. At the 6th paragraph the author dives into the democratic activist issue that noone else cares about, the threat of a military draft. Tying the tragedy at Kent State in with the current talking point about a military draft is a poor construction just to make yet another bunk claim about the draft and somehow try to make it relevant and topical.

We already have active protesting. Students are protesting. Not as much as they were at the beginning of the war and during the election, but they are still protesting. They don't need the threat of a draft to make them protest.

So back to the interesting point that was never addressed. Could we have a police force or military force use deadly force against war protesters now? I can contrive some situations where it might be possible, but they're all a big stretch. It ain't gonna happen again.

There, I answered the question.

And yes, I'm tired and cynical at the moment. I'll probably regret posting this in the morning, but what the hell.

unicus
2006-05-09, 12:57 PM
So back to the interesting point that was never addressed. Could we have a police force or military force use deadly force against war protesters now? I can contrive some situations where it might be possible, but they're all a big stretch. It ain't gonna happen again.
Related to war, though not directly related to protesting, but yes the police could shoot dead an innocent person and did last year in the UK, Jean Charles de Menezes. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Charles_de_Menezes)

BTW Iím interested in how much this was reported on in other parts of the world.

GILD
2006-05-09, 01:01 PM
Was he the guy who supposedly jumped the turnstile and then ran away?
It was all over the news here.

MrBoogiejuice
2006-05-09, 01:07 PM
There was a reconstruction on the telly box here recently. It was a balls up of major proportions. And that's before you get to the, as yet, undiscovered (or unreported) coppers who falsified the reports...And the cctv "not working" that day...Or the witness statements saying that he didn't run at all and was jumped on by the police whilst on the train.

We also had the Italian lad shot dead at the Genoa G8 protests a couple of years ago.

JC, I wouldn't be so certain that it wont happen again. Or maybe you've got a better model of crystal ball than me.

monkeyman
2006-05-09, 05:20 PM
What a bunk essay with poor logic flow that just exploits the deaths of the students to make yet another bunk claim that we're going to have a military draft.

What's bunk mean?
And I think John_Childs is right...I may be wrong, but I doubt the American people would stand for a draft...the country would go into an uproar

unisteve
2006-05-09, 05:38 PM
What's bunk mean?
And I think John_Childs is right...I may be wrong, but I doubt the American people would stand for a draft...the country would go into an uproar
There would be an uproar, but would anyone DO anything?

North Americans (including your fellow Canadians) are generally too apathetic in this day and age to start any kind of a nation-wide protest. We like to whine about stuff, but we never do anything.

monkeyman
2006-05-09, 05:42 PM
Could the draft be almost good in a way, if just to unify the Americans?

hehe...unify

john_childs
2006-05-09, 06:10 PM
JC, I wouldn't be so certain that it wont happen again. Or maybe you've got a better model of crystal ball than me.
The big lesson from Kent State is that you don't put people with no proper crowd control training in a position where they have to do crowd control, and you certainly don't give them weapons that can have deadly force.

We learned that lesson well. It's not likely at all to happen again. Untrained troops/officers/marshals/citizens/whatever are not going to be put in crowd control situations and especially with guns. Now the risk is trained officers shooting into a crowd during crowd control or riot control. Not likely to happen.

I can come up with emergency panic situations where even trained crowd control officers might panic and shoot into a crowd. Maybe something like a cluster of suicide bombings and pre-planted bombings that happen during a large protest. That would cause panic on the part of law enforcement (and the rest of the city) and could lead to accidental shootings into a crowd to get them to disburse or to protect the lives of the officers. But those kinds of situations are not likely.

The shooting of the turnstile jumper in the UK made the news prominently here in the US. But that's not a Kent State style crowd control failure. I don't recall the shooting at the G8 protest.

john_childs
2006-05-09, 06:17 PM
What's bunk mean?
And I think John_Childs is right...I may be wrong, but I doubt the American people would stand for a draft...the country would go into an uproar
Bunk (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bunk)

We aren't going to have a draft. The military and the President don't want it and don't need it. The only reason it stays in the news is because the Democrats are playing games by putting up bills and doing committee discussions about reinstituting the draft. They're doing just to make news, not because the military wants it or because it has any support or any likelihood of passing. It's just political games to bump the issue in the news and make it look more immanent than it is. When the election gets closer the Democrats will be bumping the issue again by introducing bunk bills and bunk committee discussions about the draft. Yawn. It's not news, just party games.

maestro8
2006-05-09, 06:29 PM
There would be an uproar, but would anyone DO anything?
I'd agree here. You'd have your usual college-student protests, perhaps a march or three in some major cities, but the majority of drafted citizens would be good little sheep and hop right on the bus to the nearest military installation.

Based on the results of our last presidential election, I believe it would be safe to say that a good number of US citizens exist in a state of fear (i.e. fear of terrorism, fear of inflation) and one of those fears is fear of the government... they chose the government that they fear the least. As such, they'd fear the repercussions of going against a governmental order, such as a draft.

Could the draft be almost good in a way, if just to unify the Americans?
It seems that the only device that unifies americans is the television.

MrBoogiejuice
2006-05-09, 06:33 PM
The shooting of the turnstile jumper in the UK made the news prominently here in the US. But that's not a Kent State style crowd control failure. I don't recall the shooting at the G8 protest.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1448751.stm

GILD
2006-05-10, 06:12 AM
And I think John_Childs is right...I may be wrong, but I doubt the American people would stand for a draft...the country would go into an uproar
They passed the single most draconian piece of legislation, twice, and you guys didn't bat an eyelid.
By the time the draft is introduced, it would've been spun so severely, you'll actually believe that you want it.

dan de man
2006-05-10, 07:51 AM
uh yeah *puts hand up*Dan de man unicyclist new; what when where was Kent state

john_childs
2006-05-10, 08:10 AM
uh yeah *puts hand up*Dan de man unicyclist new; what when where was Kent state
I hope they cover the Kent State shootings when you get to high school history. Anyways, here's a Wikipedia article about it: Kent State Shootings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings)

It was tragic and unfortunate. Four killed and nine injured. It shouldn't have happened. On the plus side it got the National Guard and other police forces to re-evaluate their methods for crowd control. Prior to the Kent State Shootings the standards and methods for crowd control were very archaic compared to the standards and training we have now.

GILD
2006-05-10, 08:39 AM
On the plus side it got the National Guard and other police forces to re-evaluate their methods for crowd control. Prior to the Kent State Shootings the standards and methods for crowd control were very archaic compared to the standards and training we have now.
This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_Democratic_National_Convention), on the other hand, didn't ring any alarm bells.
(Much more detailed account her (http://everything2.com/index.pl?node=1968%20Democratic%20Convention)e.)
But it does serve to illustrate John's point.
The tactics used in this instance seems a little too well thought out to just chalk up to 'bad training'.
A discussion for another day.

Chicago '68 is also quoted by many of his biographers as a turning point in the writing career of Hunter S Thompson. (http://everything2.com/index.pl?node=Hunter%20S.%20Thompson) He was covering it as a freelancer and got caught in the melee. He described the experience by saying: "I went to Chicago as a journalist, and returned a raving beast"

nick
2006-05-10, 02:28 PM
Kent state will probably not happen again. But if anyone here knows about the FTAA protest in miami, you know that rediculous acts of police brutality still happen.

I'm taking a painting class right now with mike alewitz, who was one of the organizers of the anti war actions at Kent. He was an eye witness to the massacre. I'm lucky to have the oppertunity to talk with him about it, and I've been to a presentation he did on the event and it's meaning today, realyl great.

BillyTheMountain
2006-05-10, 07:51 PM
Hunter S Thompson.[/URL] He was covering it as a freelancer and got caught in the melee. He described the experience by saying: "I went to Chicago as a journalist, and returned a raving beast"

Brother Dave,

Do you worship the raving BEAST??

You quote from Hunter the way others quote the Bible.....

Billy

Fear and loathing on the Unicycle Trail.

GILD
2006-05-11, 08:24 AM
Do you worship the raving BEAST??

I do (http://www.unicyclist.com/gallery/?g2_view=core.ShowItem&g2_itemId=109004).

U-Turn
2006-05-11, 11:45 AM
I do (http://www.unicyclist.com/gallery/?g2_view=core.ShowItem&g2_itemId=109004).Ah, that explains the pains in my Achilles tendons...

BillyTheMountain
2006-05-12, 10:18 PM
I do (http://www.unicyclist.com/gallery/?g2_view=core.ShowItem&g2_itemId=109004).


I've always loved that tattoo--maybe the best of the gallery on the canvas that's your body.

So it's clear you cannot be an Atheist.....