Earthlings, a documentary about animal rights

[James_Potter]

viewer discretion advised

Earthlings (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3251419433163515470)
I think this is a movie many people should see, but definitely won't want to, and I'm definitely not gonna tell you to watch it. It is your choice. I guess it relates to the thread a couple days ago about posting graphic images. This movie is about factory farming, and other inhumane treatment to animals, not only for meat, but for pets, clothing, entertainment, and research.
So, like I said, viewer discretion advised. But if you have a strong stomach, and are interested in animal rights, you might want to check it out.

[forrestunifreak]

Wow... animals have rights? Like in their own animal country thing? Were is that?

[mscalisi]

Ahh James, you've stumbed accross the true meaning of the word "ignorance" (I'm not calling you ignorant)

Ignorance is not simply the lack of knowledge, it is actively "ignoring" things like where cheap meat, dairy and eggs come from.



viewer discretion advised

Earthlings (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3251419433163515470)
I think this is a movie many people should see, but definitely won't want to, and I'm definitely not gonna tell you to watch it. It is your choice. I guess it relates to the thread a couple days ago about posting graphic images. This movie is about factory farming, and other inhumane treatment to animals, not only for meat, but for pets, clothing, entertainment, and research.
So, like I said, viewer discretion advised. But if you have a strong stomach, and are interested in animal rights, you might want to check it out.

[James_Potter]

so would you care to explain where cheap meat, dairy, and eggs come from?

[forrestunifreak]

so would you care to explain where cheap meat, dairy, and eggs come from?


The breakfast fairy?

[James_Potter]

The breakfast fairy?
hahaha, no. they come from factory farms, in which animals are kept in tightly packed cages without enough room to move or breathe, and they get their beaks or horns or tails chopped off without anaesthetic, and get their fur/skin burned off their body often while they're still alive, and are killed through inhumane and very painful ways....

[litldude2]

Ouch, I am happy I am not a cow.

[hell-on-wheel]

Wow...I just finished watching Part One on pets. That last scene really got to me. I'll watch the rest when I've got some time later.
A few minor criticisms:
1. I'm sure it was unintentional, but I thought putting the sufferagettes right after the KKK and Hitler and labeling the footage under sexism gave the (hopefully false) impression that the film-makers felt that women where on the "aggressor" side of sexism. I guess there really isn't footage of "pro-male" rallies though.
2. While I am firmly opposed to factory farming and am a vegetarian mostly for that reason, I think it is imprudent to compare mass animal suffering to mass human suffering, at least when trying to persuade people with different views (or no views) on animal rights. PETA set up a display on our campus last semester with large posters doing just that - a lynching next to a cow on a meat hook, a slaughterhouse next to a concentration camp, a slave next to a dog on a leash. While from their perspective they were raising the significance animal suffering to that of human suffering, from the perspective of many minority groups on campus PETA was belittling the significance of human atrocities to that of mere animals. (Usually, when you compare a person to an animal, you are saying something about the person, not the animal). While I understand the point PETA was trying to get across, I think comparing one atrocity to another (especially ones within the last hundred years) is always bound to backfire as a persuasion tool. (As an "inciting" tool, it works pretty well).

[hell-on-wheel]

so would you care to explain where cheap meat, dairy, and eggs come from?

I might be wrong, but I think mscalisi was making a pro-animal statement, in favor of the movie.

(Though, I might also be wrong that you thought otherwise. AHH! Misunderstandings everywhere!)

[wobbling bear]

probably posted before http://www.themeatrix.com/
(though I am neither a vegetarian, nor an animal rights activist -sorry I like bullfighting- I am still concerned by strange practices with animals)

[yoopers]

so would you care to explain where cheap meat, dairy, and eggs come from?
Aldi's (http://www.aldi.com).

[underdog]

hahaha, no. they come from factory farms, in which animals are kept in tightly packed cages without enough room to move or breathe, and they get their beaks or horns or tails chopped off without anaesthetic, and get their fur/skin burned off their body often while they're still alive, and are killed through inhumane and very painful ways....

Whoa! Sucks to be them!!

One thing that will never change (like fighting wars or mans desire to get high) is the fact that man has always and will always use animals to his advantage. From the dawn of time, man has killed animals for food and clothing and always will. Man has domesticated animals for work and for food (I'm sure that PETA has a problem with draft horses not being treated according to union regulations). Animals are used for medical research that HAS led to cures for some of our most insidious diseases. The best that we can do as a species is to use these animals as humanely as possible. I think that a little activism towards that end is a good thing. I've never been big on extremism for any cause though. When you get two groups of extremists on opposite ends of the scale it's really hard to find middle ground.

[koebwil]

This is why I'm vegan.

[forrestunifreak]

This is why I'm vegan.

I might have missed something, but what does being a vegan have to do with anything? Does that help the animals?

[mscalisi]

Well, I heard that there is a somewhat tenuous link between beef consumption and bovine mortality.

I might have missed something, but what does being a vegan have to do with anything? Does that help the animals?

[mscalisi]

I didn't have time to watch the video, but isn't it on factory farming?

so would you care to explain where cheap meat, dairy, and eggs come from?

[James_Potter]

I might have missed something, but what does being a vegan have to do with anything? Does that help the animals?
of course it does...killing and eating cows is generally unhealthy for it.

[underdog]

Hey! If we're not supposed to eat animals, how come they're made outa meat?:confused:

[mscalisi]

You're made out of meat too!!

Hey! If we're not supposed to eat animals, how come they're made outa meat?:confused:

[phlegm]

Regardless of "animal rights," factory farming is evil if only because it creates polluted meat for human consumption. Even if you are the most ardently unapologetic carnivore, eating meat pumped full of poisonous chemicals should make you concerned.

[koebwil]

I might have missed something, but what does being a vegan have to do with anything? Does that help the animals?
Because of me over 95 animals were not killed last year. Same goes for every vegetarian, but by being vegetarian you would still consume dairy, which supports the veal industry.

[phlegm]

by being vegetarian you would still consume dairy, which supports the veal industry.

How does consuming dairy directly support the veal industry? Buying dairy is not the same as forcing a dairy farmer to torcher young calves. Similarly, wouldn't shopping at the grocery store that sells factory farmed beef then support factory farming?

The problem with such ethical idealism is the seemingly infinite regress of personal responsibility. You may as well eat dirt, but make sure you humanely remove the bacteria before doing so. :rolleyes:

[koebwil]

How does consuming dairy directly support the veal industry? Buying dairy is not the same as forcing a dairy farmer to torcher young calves. Similarly, wouldn't shopping at the grocery store that sells factory farmed beef then support factory farming?

The problem with such ethical idealism is the seemingly infinite regress of personal responsibility. You may as well eat dirt, but make sure you humanely remove the bacteria before doing so. :rolleyes:
the farmers take the baby cows away from the mothers, and the mothers then produce the milk. this video (http://www.goveg.com/factoryFarming.asp) Explains it very well.

[mscalisi]

While it's true that there would be no veal if there were no market for it, getting cows pregnant is crucial to milk production.

...and if she has a girl, she either becomes a dairy cow or raised for beef.

If it's a boy. Veal it is.

How does consuming dairy directly support the veal industry? Buying dairy is not the same as forcing a dairy farmer to torcher young calves. Similarly, wouldn't shopping at the grocery store that sells factory farmed beef then support factory farming?

The problem with such ethical idealism is the seemingly infinite regress of personal responsibility. You may as well eat dirt, but make sure you humanely remove the bacteria before doing so. :rolleyes:

[James_Potter]

I didn't have time to watch the video, but isn't it on factory farming?
yeah, I misunderstood what you meant in your first post, sorry about that q-:

[phlegm]

While it's true that there would be no veal if there were no market for it, getting cows pregnant is crucial to milk production.

...and if she has a girl, she either becomes a dairy cow or raised for beef.

If it's a boy. Veal it is.

But buying milk doesn't force a dairy farmer to make the economically beneficial choice to raise veal instead of Big Macs, does it?

[mscalisi]

Of course not, but not many bulls are needed, so they do the most profitable thing they can with the male calves.

One might say that the dairy industry subsides veal, or even that veal is a byproduct of the dairy industry.



But buying milk doesn't force a dairy farmer to make the economically beneficial choice to raise veal instead of Big Macs, does it?

[monkeyman]

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=grill

[mscalisi]

I can beat that.

http://www.petsorfood.com/

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=grill

[forrestunifreak]

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=grill


I'm dissapointed that the Read what PETA has to say about this article (http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/hatemail.cgi) link at the bottom doesn't work....

[monkeyman]

try this? (http://maddox.xmission.com/hatemail.cgi)

[dudewithasock]

I love to eat animals, so I'm not gonna bother watching that movie. Ignorance is bliss, after all.

[forrestunifreak]

I love to eat animals, so I'm not gonna bother watching that movie. Ignorance is bliss, after all.


Really, I don't want to watch a movie with a bunch of doomsayers trying to depress me into becoming a PETA wannabee...

[trials_uni]

i just watched every second of that video and it was terrible i never knew how much torture those animals go through...the meat aprt acctually made me feel sick to my stomach. but im not gonna stop eating meat over that...i mught appreciate it a little more now though.

-Phil

[koebwil]

i just watched every second of that video and it was terrible i never knew how much torture those animals go through...the meat aprt acctually made me feel sick to my stomach. but im not gonna stop eating meat over that...i mught appreciate it a little more now though.

-Phil
Appreciate what?

[James_Potter]

Really, I don't want to watch a movie with a bunch of doomsayers trying to depress me into becoming a PETA wannabee...
Keeping yourself ignorant isn't really a good idea...if you're not afraid of what it's all about, then why not watch it?

[trials_uni]

its kinda like when natives kill an animal they pray for ti and wish it well on the other side or whatever ity is that animals souls go to after they die. i wont just think of it as yummy food but as a sacrafice that was made so that i can live happily and heathily.

[koebwil]

its kinda like when natives kill an animal they pray for ti and wish it well on the other side or whatever ity is that animals souls go to after they die. i wont just think of it as yummy food but as a sacrafice that was made so that i can live happily and heathily.
Actually meat is not healthy, and the cow didn't decide to sacrifice itself for you. That is an Inuit belief, and it doesn't apply if you didn't hunt the animal yourself.

[trials_uni]

well what exactly do you want to hear then...im trying to word it in a way so that im saying i wont take it for granted anymore...

[James_Potter]

its kinda like when natives kill an animal they pray for ti and wish it well on the other side or whatever ity is that animals souls go to after they die. i wont just think of it as yummy food but as a sacrafice that was made so that i can live happily and heathily.
Actually meat is not healthy, and the cow didn't decide to sacrifice itself for you. That is an Inuit belief, and it doesn't apply if you didn't hunt the animal yourself.
I agree with parts of what both of you said...in my opinion, eating meat in itself is not unhealthy, nor is it an immoral act. How you obtain your meat can be very immoral, though.
The way Native Americans, and also modern day hunters do it, is good, because the animal has very little suffering, and the hunter only kills the animal because they need to feed themselves and their family. The reasons big companies use factories to mass "produce" and kill animals is only to sell them and make a profit, so they're not going to worry about whether or not they hurt the animal at all, they just need a to do it as fast as possible to make as much money as possible.

[koebwil]

well what exactly do you want to hear then...im trying to word it in a way so that im saying i wont take it for granted anymore...
I think that eating meat in general is taking animals for granted. Even if you don't stop eating meat altogether you could reduce the amount of meat you consume. If everyone ate half as much meat as they now do billions of animals would avoid that fate you saw in the video.

[koebwil]

I agree with parts of what both of you said...in my opinion, eating meat in itself is not unhealthy, nor is it an immoral act. How you obtain your meat can be very immoral, though.
The way Native Americans, and also modern day hunters do it, is good, because the animal has very little suffering, and the hunter only kills the animal because they need to feed themselves and their family. The reasons big companies use factories to mass "produce" and kill animals is only to sell them and make a profit, so they're not going to worry about whether or not they hurt the animal at all, they just need a to do it as fast as possible to make as much money as possible.
You think modern hunters care about animals? From what I have seen they are pretty sadistic, and they only use bullets because it's easier than hunting with clubs. Hunters no longer need to hunt to provide for their families. They are killing for fun, which I consider barely less bad than killing for profit.

[forrestunifreak]

Keeping yourself ignorant isn't really a good idea...if you're not afraid of what it's all about, then why not watch it?

Because I'm not ignorant about it, I know what's it's about. I don't need to watch it to inform myself. Therefore I don't really care about the video.

[koebwil]

Because I'm not ignorant about it, I know what's it's about. I don't need to watch it to inform myself. Therefore I don't really care about the video.
If you haven't seen any videos in the past you really don't know how bad it is.

I think if we showed this to all kids at the age of 8 or so everyone of them would go veg

[forrestunifreak]

You think modern hunters care about animals? From what I have seen they are pretty sadistic, and they only use bullets because it's easier than hunting with clubs. Hunters no longer need to hunt to provide for their families. They are killing for fun, which I consider barely less bad than killing for profit.

Do you know anything about modern hunting? If you did you wouldn't have said any of that. In Montana a LOT of people hunt, and everything you just said is completly false. Only someone who is very uninformed and is repeating what he has heard elsewere would say that.

[James_Potter]

Because I'm not ignorant about it, I know what's it's about. I don't need to watch it to inform myself. Therefore I don't really care about the video.
well if you know what is going on, then how are you okay with animals being hung upside down on hooks while they're still alive, having their throats slit while they're still alive, being drowned in boiling water to have their fur and skin burnt off?

[James_Potter]

You think modern hunters care about animals? From what I have seen they are pretty sadistic, and they only use bullets because it's easier than hunting with clubs. Hunters no longer need to hunt to provide for their families. They are killing for fun, which I consider barely less bad than killing for profit.
I've talked to many hunters (living in Idaho and all) and none of them kill for fun, they all do it to feed themselves...seems like Forrest has the right idea, with his last post.

[koebwil]

Do you know anything about modern hunting? If you did you wouldn't have said any of that. In Montana a LOT of people hunt, and everything you just said is completly false. Only someone who is very uninformed and is repeating what he has heard elsewere would say that.
This is my experience with hunters in Wisconsin, Europe, Australia, and Hawaii. I said it was from what I have seen

[forrestunifreak]

well if you know what is going on, then how are you okay with animals being hung upside down on hooks while they're still alive, having their throats slit while they're still alive, being drowned in boiling water to have their fur and skin burnt off?

I'm not, I think it's cruel.
Especially in this day and age, were 'animal rights' and cruelty to animals is such a commonplace issue, I don't see how there is still companys/factorys whatever that do that.

Without PETA coming and burning the place down. :rolleyes:

[hell-on-wheel]

Just finished watching the rest of it. That elephant trainer had some deep-seated issues.

My fiancee's dad occationally hunted for sport, but there was some organization that he would give the carcass to that would clean and prepare it and hand it out to hungry rural families. I thought that was nice.

[koebwil]

Just finished watching the rest of it. That elephant trainer had some deep-seated issues.

My fiancee's dad occationally hunted for sport, but there was some organization that he would give the carcass to that would clean and prepare it and hand it out to hungry rural families. I thought that was nice.
That is much nicer than what I hear of from hunters here.

[hell-on-wheel]

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=grill

I'm surprised he didn't bring up the fact that soy farms are becoming the leading cause of Amazon deforestation.

[koebwil]

I'm surprised he didn't bring up the fact that soy farms are becoming the leading cause of Amazon deforestation.
Most of those are soy farms to feed dairy cows.

[trials_uni]

i just re watched some parts that i sorta missed beforse and it made me sick to see mainly 2 of those things

1. throwing that dog into the garbage truck to be crucshed alive
2. cutting on the baby pigs ears tails and balls and the baby chickens beaks

and yes that elephant guy had some serious deep rooted issues so did those guys who were baeting the pigs to death.

i really dont kno how those people in the factories can kill all those animals(mostly the cows and pigs) everyday...esspecially with how brutal the death process is. i mean how would you like it if someone slugged a bolt into your head then slit your throat and left you hanging to die? i could never do that to a living animal...maybe i shouldnt have watched that video...ive lost my appetite entirely..

[koebwil]

ive lost my appetite entirely..Try a salad, or a boca burger. :)

[trials_uni]

that salad acctually sounds pretty good...and im not sure exactly what a boca burger is...

[koebwil]

that salad acctually sounds pretty good...and im not sure exactly what a boca burger is...
fake burger, they taste great and they're vegan. Don't get any of the flavored ones though, they taste terrible. They overdid the flavors.

[James_Potter]

I just finished watching it, finally, and I have to say that I don't really believe the part about zoos, and circuses...not completely, anyway. I'm sure those things happen, but I believe that for the most part, zookeepers and circus trainers are nice to their animals. Part of the reason I believe this is from reading the book, Life of Pi, which talks a lot about zoos and some about circuses. Animals in zoos are happy there, otherwise there would be a heckuva lot more deaths as shown in that elephant part. But you almost never hear of deaths by zoo animals, because there aren't very many....

[James_Potter]

that salad acctually sounds pretty good...and im not sure exactly what a boca burger is...
Boca is Spanish for mouth...I learned that in my French class.
Also, its a veggie burger, like koebwil said.

[koebwil]

Boca is Spanish for mouth...I learned that in my French class.
Also, its a veggie burger, like koebwil said.
Yes, I am the reigning expert, cause I ate one less than an hour ago.

[phlegm]

I prefer garden burgers. It seems boca burgers try too hard to taste like meat.

[koebwil]

I haven't tried those. Maybe I'll get some soon.

[James_Potter]

I know this thread is dead, but I found a music video to one of my favorite songs, Open Your Eyes, by Goldfinger...and I find it relevant.

http://www.music-streams.com/media/jive/goldfinger/video/open_your_eyes_100.wmv

[Ducttape]

Animals were meant to be food why does it matter how we get food as long as it tastes good I'll eat it.

[James_Potter]

Animals were meant to be food why does it matter how we get food as long as it tastes good I'll eat it.
what do you mean, "animals were meant to be food"?

[Ducttape]

I mean we eat them they taste good we need nutrients they provide them sure we could eat ourselves but that is called canabalism and is frowned upon in most societies so anyway I eat meat it tastes good it keeps you healthy and it all ends well why should I care how I get meat If you want to say go visit a slaughterjouse and kill an animal yourself been there done that still eat meat.

[James_Potter]

I mean we eat them they taste good we need nutrients they provide them sure we could eat ourselves but that is called canabalism and is frowned upon in most societies so anyway I eat meat it tastes good it keeps you healthy and it all ends well why should I care how I get meat If you want to say go visit a slaughterjouse and kill an animal yourself been there done that still eat meat.
I'm not really against eating meat, per se, but I think its important to realize how much suffering and torture animals had to go through in order to give you food, and you should realize that suffering does not need to happen at all, because you can eat non animal products.

[Ducttape]

Done that but don't like it anyway not against vegitarianism or Veganism just like my beef and my other white meat, and am getting very tired of people complaining about Animal suffering Living in Portland Oregon has been the most oppinionated experience of my life so far. People in my school last year could argue which end of a pencil to write with.

[mscalisi]

Gosh, I sure am sorry hearing about all that suffering is starting to annoy you.

d am getting very tired of people complaining about Animal suffering

[Ducttape]

it's not just that, it's the fact that everyone is constantly arguing and they argue about everything they can even animal suffering I am just tired of hearing it.

[James_Potter]

it's not just that, it's the fact that everyone is constantly arguing and they argue about everything they can even animal suffering I am just tired of hearing it.
you say "even animal suffering" like its no big deal.
did you even watch the movie?

[DK]

Ive watched it several times now, and its one of the best documentaries I've seen.

The most horrible thing was the "kosher" slaughter of the cows at Agriprocessors. The trachea and larynx are rippedout while the cows are concious and the are dumped on slippery concrete and struggle to stand up and run away with their head semi-severed and esophagus hanging out... pretty fucked up.

Ive been vegetarian since January and I try to aviod non-organic dairy products.

A lot more people would be veg or at least care about where the steak they are about to stuff down their throats came from. And I bet almost noone would eat meat if they had to slaughter and dismember the animals themselves.

Ducttape, why do you say animals are meant for food. Do we have something all powerful that says we have the right to exploit other animals? Are we really all that more "intellegent" that the animal you will porbably eat for lunch today? They have families like us, they communicate like us, they feel pain, they feel love, they have extremely similar DNA compositions to us. So why are you allowed to be a slave master per se?

I don't have anything aganist people who eat meat, etc, as long as they recognize that the animal suffered.

[Ducttape]

No we don't have a "higher right" that allows us to eat animals it just that animals are made of meat, and meat has protein like I said before we could eat ourselves but that is canabalism and is frowned upon in most societies, as fopr the video I don't need to watch it when I have paid a visit to a slaughterhouse personally,I think I am done with this fourm I made my point and don't need to dwell on the subject.

[DK]

No we don't have a "higher right" that allows us to eat animals it just that animals are made of meat, and meat has protein like I said before we could eat ourselves but that is canabalism and is frowned upon in most societies, as fopr the video I don't need to watch it when I have paid a visit to a slaughterhouse personally,I think I am done with this fourm I made my point and don't need to dwell on the subject.


You make sense if eating meat was required, or even necessary for us to survive

[underdog]

A lot more people would be veg or at least care about where the steak they are about to stuff down their throats came from. And I bet almost noone would eat meat if they had to slaughter and dismember the animals themselves.

I don't have anything aganist people who eat meat, etc, as long as they recognize that the animal suffered.

This is a pretty good point. Especially the way big, commercial slaughterhouses do things. It's pretty sick. I haven't watched the vid (I'm not sure I could stomach it). I'm also a former hunter. I used to go out and once a year hunt for deer or elk. My thoughts were that;

I knew the animal was not raised in a confined pen and pumped full of hormones and such and,

I was a stickler for getting a quick and clean kill, therefore minimal to no suffering for the animal.

I always felt that, if I was gonna eat meat, this was the best way to do it. No, vague displacement of the whole killing, cleaning, processing. No wasting of any part of the animal (I tried to use as much of the animal as possible, even to the point of getting the hide tanned, at great expense, and using the leather for useful things and my wife even liked heart and liver but I couldn't stand it). God, I'm starting to sound like freakin' Grizzly Adams here.

Anyway, I felt that I hunted to feed my family and not for 'sport.' I actually felt pretty horrible whenever I killed something. I hated taking any life. Too damned many Disney movies watching critters talk about their families and lives I guess. I don't hunt anymore and I still eat meat but not too much. I have friends who still hunt and I am given game meat from time to time. I mostly eat fish, which I know is another can of worms. Some fish are not 'wild caught' but are farm raised and pumped full of growth hormones and such. I guess if your gonna eat any commercial meat product you're contributing to the problem. If you indeed percieve it to be a problem.

[johnfoss]

And I bet almost noone would eat meat if they had to slaughter and dismember the animals themselves.
Like before such factories existed? Yeah, I think a lot of people were eating meat then too. Under different conditions of course, but the farther back you go, the more people were butchering their own meat.

This has been an interesting discussion to read through. It hasn't generated the types of powerful debates found in many other similar threads, I think because it's really hard to argue the factory farming side. A few people have come in and made "pro meat" statements, but nobody is advocating factory farming.

But on the other hand, not many people are rallying against it either. I did not watch this video, but I have seen samples. From what I read, this video is a little extremist; not distinguising between elephant trainer and *bad, evil* elephant trainer. But it gives the impression that people are aware of much of the problem, but don't seem willing to prioritize it.

All of you veggies/vegans *are* doing something about it, by removing yourselves from the market for those products. By abstaining, you are not simply doing nothing.

I eat meat. Though I embrace my nature as an omnivore, I would rather eat products from humane sources if I could better know which were which. I am in favor of better animal rights (they do have rights under "people" law; watch Animal Cops), but I support zoos and humanely-trained performing animals. I can do this while thinking PETA are a bunch of shock-value crackpots.

[James_Potter]

A lot more people would be veg or at least care about where the steak they are about to stuff down their throats came from. And I bet almost noone would eat meat if they had to slaughter and dismember the animals themselves.
I agree, kinda...like John said, before there were factories, plenty of people did still eat meat. But I bet they ate less meat than people do now, because nowadays we get it in a nice little package with seasoning and steak sauce. We don't have to look our food in the face.
And back when people did hunt and prepare their own meat, they did it humanely. Most people nowadays would be able to cut and prepare a dead cow if they knew how to do it, and they knew it was their only food source. But most people probably couldn't stand being in a factory farm and watching what happens there all the time.
No we don't have a "higher right" that allows us to eat animals it just that animals are made of meat, and meat has protein like I said before we could eat ourselves but that is canabalism and is frowned upon in most societies, as fopr the video I don't need to watch it when I have paid a visit to a slaughterhouse personally,I think I am done with this fourm I made my point and don't need to dwell on the subject.
That would make sense if meat was the only source of protein, but just because something is edible doesn't mean you have to eat it.
If you don't need to watch the video, then you realize that the cows are slaughtered before they're even dead? And they're trying to stand up with their intestines and throat hanging out through gaping holes in their body...and they get the skin torn off their bodies to be used for leather, before they're dead....
This is a pretty good point. Especially the way big, commercial slaughterhouses do things. It's pretty sick. I haven't watched the vid (I'm not sure I could stomach it). I'm also a former hunter. I used to go out and once a year hunt for deer or elk. My thoughts were that;
I knew the animal was not raised in a confined pen and pumped full of hormones and such and,
I was a stickler for getting a quick and clean kill, therefore minimal to no suffering for the animal.
I always felt that, if I was gonna eat meat, this was the best way to do it. No, vague displacement of the whole killing, cleaning, processing. No wasting of any part of the animal (I tried to use as much of the animal as possible, even to the point of getting the hide tanned, at great expense, and using the leather for useful things and my wife even liked heart and liver but I couldn't stand it). God, I'm starting to sound like freakin' Grizzly Adams here.
That is pretty much the only way I'm okay with meat eating, is if the hunter really realizes what they are doing, and how much pain it could possibly cause to another living being. Also not being wasteful, that animal should not have died for no good reason.
I mostly eat fish, which I know is another can of worms. Some fish are not 'wild caught' but are farm raised and pumped full of growth hormones and such. I guess if your gonna eat any commercial meat product you're contributing to the problem. If you indeed percieve it to be a problem.
Not to mention that fish are often contaminated with mercury in the water...some people can't even eat it because of the high mercury content. My mom had a friend who was very allergic to penicillin, so she couldn't eat chicken, because they pump the chickens full of the stuff.
But on the other hand, not many people are rallying against it either. I did not watch this video, but I have seen samples. From what I read, this video is a little extremist; not distinguising between elephant trainer and *bad, evil* elephant trainer. But it gives the impression that people are aware of much of the problem, but don't seem willing to prioritize it.
Parts of the movie are biased, mostly the entertainment part and the pets part...but the events in the segment on farming are not isolated events. You can go to any factory farm anywhere, and you'll most likely see similar (mal)treatment to their animals.

All of you veggies/vegans *are* doing something about it, by removing yourselves from the market for those products. By abstaining, you are not simply doing nothing.
I only recently decided to start becoming an active citizen...just a year ago, I recognized how this world was really not going in a good direction, but I thought that there was nothing I could do about it, so...eat drink and be merry, c'est la vie. But nowadays I'm doing everything I possibly can to spare any suffering, anywhere in the world. It kinda bothers me when people do see that what they're doing is wrong, but don't try to do anything about it...reminds me of the book Life of Pi, because in one part, Pi is talking about atheism and agnosticism. He says that agnosticism bothers him even more than atheism, because agnosticism is, usually, simply apathy, not caring about whether there is a God or not, not caring where we go when we die or what we're even living for. Atheists at least have a reason for what they believe in.

I eat meat. Though I embrace my nature as an omnivore, I would rather eat products from humane sources if I could better know which were which. I am in favor of better animal rights (they do have rights under "people" law; watch Animal Cops), but I support zoos and humanely-trained performing animals. I can do this while thinking PETA are a bunch of shock-value crackpots.
That is very cool that you're into the animal rights part...its true that a lot of the time PETA is just crazy about it. you've probably seen this (http://petakillsanimals.com/) website, I don't know if its true at all, but there you are. Snopes has some interesting articles about how crazy PET (http://search.atomz.com/search/?sp-q=PETA&getit=Go&sp-a=00062d45-sp00000000&sp-advanced=1&sp-p=all&sp-w-control=1&sp-w=alike&sp-date-range=-1&sp-x=any&sp-c=100&sp-m=1&sp-s=0) has gotten.

[DK]

I really dont like PETA. I guess their aims are good but they way they go about doing things is nutty. Shock hippies for the most part, but rarely do anything besides that. The animal liberation front is a better organization that does more things than just education.

[forrestunifreak]

A lot more people would be veg or at least care about where the steak they are about to stuff down their throats came from. And I bet almost noone would eat meat if they had to slaughter and dismember the animals themselves.

We shoot most of our own meat. I've had my arm up to my elbow inside an Elk chest cavitiy several times, skinning, gutting...

Makes good stew. And grilled steaks. And everything else...

[uniextreme]

WOW! I can't believe I haven't seen this film until now. I'm glad I didn't start a new thread. Now time to read this one...although I bet it will just be the ol' "plants have feelings too" argument..

[WOFT]

*My Girlfriend has humbly requested to use my account to engage in this debate...*

Animals were meant to be food why does it matter how we get food as long as it tastes good I'll eat it.

When u say that animals were supposed to be food, u unfortunately have to presuppose someone who created the world with a specific intention for each animal – to be food or to live in some other peaceful and happy way! Unfortunately, since this is a philosophical and ethical debate it doesn’t help to make immature statements about what God intends for each animal, because frankly you cant know what that is! Furthermore, if what u mean by that is a religiously unrelated comment: that eating meat is natural and therefore right, that too unfortunately for u doesn’t hold up under scrutiny since u wear clothing (lets hope) and watch tv and must be using a computer… so if the definition of what is ethically right is linked to what is natural then every person wearing spectacles is sinning most horrendously!!! Sorry, I believe there are many plausible arguments for the slaughter of animals for food (all of which can be most successfully rebutted) but yours is simply not one of them!!

I mean we eat them they taste good we need nutrients they provide them sure we could eat ourselves but that is called canabalism and is frowned upon in most societies so anyway I eat meat it tastes good it keeps you healthy and it all ends well why should I care how I get meat If you want to say go visit a slaughterjouse and kill an animal yourself been there done that still eat meat.

Re your (once again sadly immature and pitifully uneducated) comment about the fact that we need the nutrients in meat: yes, if u are a caveman and all protein and vitamin source you have is meat. But in today’s society (in fact America has one of the most impressive and extensive selections of vegetarian products that contain all the nutrients of meat) that argument, once again unfortunately for you, doesn’t hold either. I have one word for you: tofu!

it's not just that, it's the fact that everyone is constantly arguing and they argue about everything they can even animal suffering I am just tired of hearing it.

Hmmm… Me too! Sucks to have to be forced to take responsibility for the lifestyle I choose to lead! Cant people just leave me alone and not tell me about all the horrible things I vicariously do!!!! That’s right: wallow in your own ignorance!!

[wickedbob]

I really dont like PETA. I guess their aims are good but they way they go about doing things is nutty. Shock hippies for the most part, but rarely do anything besides that. The animal liberation front is a better organization that does more things than just education.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9ijLulwUTY

[Triball]

The way I see it: The animals will have rights, when they get responsibilities

[James_Potter]

The way I see it: The animals will have rights, when they get responsibilities
Does that mean we should eat retarded people?

[Triball]

People are emotionally connected to retarded people. If you know the animals name, don't kill it. That's better.

[James_Potter]

Does that mean I can eat retarded people I don't know?

[Triball]

If nobody else knows them and the police never finds out, try. You might be disappointed about the taste, though

[wickedbob]

The way I see it: The animals will have rights, when they get responsibilities

Exactly. Like in the video if they had rights we would need animal court and then we would have to kill many of them anyways or contain them.

[wickedbob]

Does that mean we should eat retarded people?

Retarded people still have more responsibility than animals do, still not the main factor though. To say an animals life is exactly to that of a humans seems rather foolish to me. If they are your equal they should have the same responsibilities and laws, no? What happens when nature takes place and a lion kills a zebra to feed his young? Do we put him on trial? Do you people get mad when animals kill and eat other animals? Is a bird killing a worm a heinous crime? I mean it is murder.

I don't think we should treat animals terrible or as our equals. You have got to realize animals don't poses the mental capacity to function as we do. (yes that means retards 2) Expecting them to follow laws and deal with the punishments seems rather criminal in itself dose it not? We should treat them with compassion though, that being the key factor. This doesn't mean we can't eat them or use them for testing though. There is a happy medium somewhere not saying we are at it, but I think we are damn close.

[James_Potter]

My point is that animals do have feelings, and are able to feel pain. I'm not saying everyone should stop eating meat, because eating meat is natural. I'm saying it's possible to treat animals with respect and care while they are alive, then kill them in a humane way. This doesn't usually happen though.

What should happen:
http://www.rightonsofshipston.co.uk/images/piglet_closeup_443.jpg

What does happen:
http://www.mindfully.org/Farm/Factory-Farm-Peter-Rosset1.jpg

[wickedbob]

[QUOTE=James_Potter]My point is that animals do have feelings, and are able to feel pain. I'm not saying everyone should stop eating meat, because eating meat is natural. I'm saying it's possible to treat animals with respect and care while they are alive, then kill them in a humane way. This doesn't usually happen though.

What should happen:
http://www.rightonsofshipston.co.uk/images/piglet_closeup_443.jpg

What does happen:
http://www.mindfully.org/Farm/Factory-Farm-Peter-Rosset1.jpg[/QUOT

I am not sure that animals can have 'feelings'. I imagine they would need more mental capacity, however I do not base this off anything that I know only heard. I admit I very well could be wrong. Although I am sure they can feel pain. Agreed. That would be rather ideal and would make most reasonable people happy. One problem that type of farming would cost more and take more time and with swelling populations it would be hard to mange doing that totally. I do believe it could be done more though, seeing as we toss away a lot of food in here. Nice that we can agree on some level.

[JJuggle]

I take it as a given that all mammals have feelings and experience pain in much the same way. I believe birds are not far off and do not doubt in the least that lower animals also experience pain. On this basis I am a vegetarian and aspire to veganism.

I remember when this particular issue came up and remember thinking, "duh, this only just occured to you?"

Baby Doctors Say Newborns Can Feel Pain
Associated Press
7 September 1987
The San Francisco Chronicle
© 1987 Hearst Communications Inc., Hearst Newspapers Division. Provided by ProQuest Information and Learning. All Rights Reserved.

Chicago

The American Academy of Pediatrics, saying that even premature babies are capable of feeling deep pain during surgery, has recommended the use of anesthesia on newborn infants.

Dr. Ronald Poland, chairman of the academy's Committee on Fetus and Newborn, said many doctors have withheld anesthesia from newborns because they believed the part of the infants' brains that responds to pain is less developed than in older children or adults.

But the academy, in a policy statement published in the September issue of "Pediatrics," said that recent research shows that even premature babies are capable of feeling deep pain in surgery.

The academy recommended using general anesthesia wherever possible in surgery on babies and said that undergoing surgery without anesthesia may cause undue stress in babies.

Procedures often performed on babies without general anesthesia or with only local pain-killers include circumcisions and even abdominal and heart surgery, said Dr. James Strain of the academy.

[James_Potter]

I once met Jane Goodall, and heard her give a speech...she would know, wouldn't she? She told the most amazing stories, about families of chimpanzees genuinely caring for one another, and one young chimpanzee literally dying of a broken heart only because his family died.
Humans are so arrogant, to think that they're the only ones who are 'intelligent' enough to feel love or emotion at all....

[wickedbob]

I am not saying at all. I think it would also depend on what animal we are talking about. Pfft, how can't you be arrogant after conquering the world?!(that's a joke)

[WOFT]

[[My girlfriend replies...]]

Wickedbob:
When you refer to both the lack of feelings and the fact that we are allowed to kill animals because they have lower mental capacity, you unfortunately do have to accept that you then also refer to mentally handicapped people! True, we have a sense of horror and outrage when we think of eating a human just because he/she has the mental capacity of a sheep or chicken or pig (highly intelligent actually) even, but think of why we have this reaction? Is it because we are talking about a human? Or is it actually a combination of responses, the majority of which is an outcry at the thought of killing something because it is weaker than you and because you can get away with it!!! A newborn baby or a severely retarded person can have just as much cognitive capacity as a cow or sheep or pig - trust me, my brother is disabled and I have seen disabled people who really are very handicapped! We love them nevertheless because we see in them a life that is precious and beautiful and we have no right to exploit these precious lives just as much as we have no right to brutally slaughter animals with the same capacities!

Re your argument about the fact that animals don't have feelings: have you EVER had a pet dog? Or have you EVER seen how deeply connected and emotional animals can be in the wild?? Elephants go back to where their young or family members died and mourn for days doing rituals where they stomp at the ground or lie down and actually shed real tears! It isn't necessary to bring up the highly sophisticated way of life that chimpanzees display, as I see someone else beat me to it! You may say these animals are more intelligent than sheep, but how much do we actually know about these animals?? Who do we think we are to judge how sophisticated they are and thus determine whether they deserve to live or die?? This same argument can be extended to a hypothetical disabled person incapable of feeling (a psychopath for instance) - do they deserve to die or do you think it perhaps a little presumptuous to feel that you have the power to give them a death sentence just because they don’t have all the things you consider to make them worthy of life??

[James_Potter]

Wickedbob:
When you refer to both the lack of feelings and the fact that we are allowed to kill animals because they have lower mental capacity, you unfortunately do have to accept that you then also refer to mentally handicapped people! True, we have a sense of horror and outrage when we think of eating a human just because he/she has the mental capacity of a sheep or chicken or pig (highly intelligent actually) even, but think of why we have this reaction? Is it because we are talking about a human? Or is it actually a combination of responses, the majority of which is an outcry at the thought of killing something because it is weaker than you and because you can get away with it!!! A newborn baby or a severely retarded person can have just as much cognitive capacity as a cow or sheep or pig - trust me, my brother is disabled and I have seen disabled people who really are very handicapped! We love them nevertheless because we see in them a life that is precious and beautiful and we have no right to exploit these precious lives just as much as we have no right to brutally slaughter animals with the same capacities!

Re your argument about the fact that animals don't have feelings: have you EVER had a pet dog? Or have you EVER seen how deeply connected and emotional animals can be in the wild?? Elephants go back to where their young or family members died and mourn for days doing rituals where they stomp at the ground or lie down and actually shed real tears! It isn't necessary to bring up the highly sophisticated way of life that chimpanzees display, as I see someone else beat me to it! You may say these animals are more intelligent than sheep, but how much do we actually know about these animals?? Who do we think we are to judge how sophisticated they are and thus determine whether they deserve to live or die?? This same argument can be extended to a hypothetical disabled person incapable of feeling (a psychopath for instance) - do they deserve to die or do you think it perhaps a little presumptuous to feel that you have the power to give them a death sentence just because they don’t have all the things you consider to make them worthy of life??
YEAH!!
( :

[UniDudeDX]

the link dont work.

[James_Potter]

Search video.google.com for Earthlings.

[UniDudeDX]

oh my gosh. THAT IS TERRIBLE. the way those people mock the animals too it just sickening. its bad enought they just kill them with out reason or cause but acting happy about it is crazy.

[James_Potter]

It's terrible there are people out there who treat animals so terribly (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OXfAPPckQU).

[jack-y]

for the "they aren't as smart as us people" argument, who was it said:
"They question is not can they think nor do they have emotions, but can they feel pain?"

But seriously, they can do all of that. And moooore...

[James_Potter]

But seriously, they can do all of that. And moooore...
Ewwwwwwwwww!

[Goats_On_Unicycles]

That's not what I was talking about!! =P

I was kind of eluding to how they kick people in the arse at anything they want to do.