anyone else vegan/vegetarian

[koebwil]

I have been a vegan for about 10 months, and I was wondering if anyone else here was veg. Also don't give me that "Ilove animals they taste great" BS, it is the veg version of "where's the other wheel?"

[litldude2]

Um, my sister is a vegitarian, but I'm not.

[James_Potter]

well, I hate meat, but my parents SUCK and force me to eat it sometimes. which is completely stupid. when I live alone I will be vegetarian.
isn't it hard to be Vegan?
seems like pretty much everything has eggs or milk or honey or cheese in it....

[john_childs]

Nope, not me. But I did have a slice of vegan pizza once. Well it wasn't actually pizza, but it did look like pizza without the cheese.

[James_Potter]

Nope, not me. But I did have a slice of vegan pizza once. Well it wasn't actually pizza, but it did look like pizza without the cheese.
was it good?

[DK]

Im not that big of a meat fan, except for sea animals.

I'm "down" with vege people, but vegan is kinda un-natural,
but its your life, and I really dont give a crap as long as you dont support peta and Ingrid Nekirk's crazy ass.

[refuze]

iv been vegetarian for 13 years, an di was vegan for 4 of those, when i first went veg, it was hard as hell.. here was nothing to eat but now you can go to any grocery store and pick up tons of veggi treats!!! have you tried the new meal starters?? they are amazing!!!!! makes cooking dinner easy and gives tons of options for a varityof flavors!!! matter a fact i just ordered some chineese food and i got them to make me some general tso's tofu!!!

[Ottawa Dave]

I'm vegertarian.:)

[koebwil]

iv been vegetarian for 13 years, an di was vegan for 4 of those, when i first went veg, it was hard as hell.. here was nothing to eat but now you can go to any grocery store and pick up tons of veggi treats!!! have you tried the new meal starters?? they are amazing!!!!! makes cooking dinner easy and gives tons of options for a varityof flavors!!! matter a fact i just ordered some chineese food and i got them to make me some general tso's tofu!!!
general tso's tofu sounds awesome. I don't find it all that hard to be vegan, all you have to do is whatch what you eat. Of course you seem to have been veg before there were many options for us.

[James_Potter]

I bet it was harder to be vegetarian like ten years ago...recently its kind of become a 'fad' for some people. which is weird I think. but whatever, makes it easier to buy meatless foods....

[koebwil]

I bet it was harder to be vegetarian like ten years ago...recently its kind of become a 'fad' for some people. which is weird I think. but whatever, makes it easier to buy meatless foods....
exactly. I love the availability of food I can eat, I go to college so generally I eat at the cafeterias. Toasted PB&J is the greatest food ever.

[john_childs]

was it good?
Of course.
Hot Lips Pizza (http://www.hotlipspizza.com/menu.html)
Vegan Focaccia
olive oil base | local, seasonal roasted veggies | roasted garlic | rosemary and sundried tomato pesto

It's much like a traditional Italian pizza. You don't need meat or cheese on a pizza. Olive oil does the trick instead of cheese.

Next time I go there I'll get the same thing. Unfortunately, they're not local for me.

[john_childs]

matter a fact i just ordered some chineese food and i got them to make me some general tso's tofu!!!
You order something healthy and then get it deep fried? ;)

Vegetarian and vegan food on the menu doesn't necessarily mean healthy.

[koebwil]

You order something healthy and then get it deep fried? ;)

Vegetarian and vegan food on the menu doesn't necessarily mean healthy.
deep fried tofu rules. especially if you can get tofudon.

[phlegm]

I have a not quite vegitarian diet. I estimate that I eat about 2 servings of meat each week. I can cook a mean vegetable and tofu stir fry (with olive oil, for you health nuts ;) ).

[koebwil]

can you help me with my stir fry, how do you make yours. I have stir fry sauce, soy sauce, vegetable oil, water, rice, onion, green pepper, garlic, carrots, and zucchinni.

[TrialsUni]

I've been veg for over a year. The transition wasn't hard for me. My cafeteria is veg/vegan oriented, too. I plan on going vegan once I'm out of college. I used to see it as something that would be really hard to do. But, this semester I've considerably cut down on dairy products and eggs.

The diet/lifestyle has made me more health-conscious, and more aware of my body and its needs.

The strongest thing that made me push to be veg is my being a cancer survivor. I lost my left kidney to clear cell sarcoma. I went in for a check-up a few years back and the hospital had me talk to a dietician, who consulted me about switching to a plant-based diet. Too much protein is bad for people with one kidney. I was already thinking about switching all of the way, from all of the books an english teacher was handing me, and my sister showing me videos on PETA's website. I came to college, bit into a sandwhich at lunch one day, and just lost the taste for meat. I'm not denying the fact that it tastes good. Sure it does. But below that my body and mind reject it.

later,
Evan

[chucknorrisunicycles]

chuck norris ate an indian

[RichVoice]

I'm "down" with vege people, but vegan is kinda un-natural

That's funny, drinking the fluid that came out of the mammary glands of a member of another species that, based on the delivery system, is presumably intended to nourish one of their young, well, that's what seems unnatural to me.

But it's your life. :)

Rich

[koebwil]

That's funny, drinking the fluid that came out of the mammary glands of a member of another species that, based on the delivery system, is presumably intended to nourish one of their young, well, that's what seems unnatural to me.

But it's your life. :)

Rich
Damn straight.

[chucknorrisunicycles]

eatin meats is fine for you. human meat is even ok just not brain, you can get a disease eating human brain.

[koebwil]

http://eathufu.com/

[chucknorrisunicycles]

i read some thing on how some nw guinee tribe or something all died cause they ate brain.

[James_Potter]

http://eathufu.com/
thats pretty much just tofu, but calling it hufu....

[chucknorrisunicycles]

tofurkey tastes like erasers. trust me, i'd know..

[koebwil]

thats pretty much just tofu, but calling it hufu....
I just like the concept

[James_Potter]

I used to eat erasers in grade school....

[chucknorrisunicycles]

yeah i liked pink pearl, those tasted funny.

[koebwil]

I used to eat erasers in grade school....
I'm using that as my sig, cause I need a sig.

[chucknorrisunicycles]

i like them too. good stuff.

[terrybigwheel]

boy, reading this thread i just wanna go grill a juicy steak!:p

[chucknorrisunicycles]

steaks rock.

[James_Potter]

yeah i liked pink pearl, those tasted funny.
yeah, pink pearl were the best.

[chucknorrisunicycles]

yes sir.

[phlegm]

can you help me with my stir fry, how do you make yours. I have stir fry sauce, soy sauce, vegetable oil, water, rice, onion, green pepper, garlic, carrots, and zucchinni.

I often start with olive oil and garlic, saute some onions. Then I add mushrooms and vegetables in order of how much I want them to cook, and then spices, nuts, etc. to my liking. And, finally, I add the tofu and soy sauce.

For spices, if I want it spicy I'll use red pepper. Sometimes I'll use ginger. Sometimes sesame seed oil for a sweet flavor.

For vegetables, I usually use whatever I have, stuff like, tomatoes, peppers, zucchini, broccoli, green beans, cabbage, asparagus, carrots, etc.

I always boil the rice in a separate pot, usually brown rice.

[chucknorrisunicycles]

totally bust out some habeneros or some cayanne powder.

[napalm]

Hey all,
I have been a vegitarian as long as i can remember- literally. None of my family are vegitarian, but when i was little i just could not stomach meat, so i've never eaten it. I am not a vegan and i don't think that i could ever be one- i rely to much on eggs etc for protien (not to mention it being an awesome hangover fry up meal)
The other really good thing about being vegitarian, apart from the obvius health benefits, is that my food bill for a week is considerably smaller than my friends who have to fork out for expensive animal hide to stuff their faces with.
mark

[gollum89]

How the hell cant you guys eat meat. Its sooo good. We here eat quite a lot of meat because it tastes soo good and we can get lots of it and you dont have to think about the animals because theyre running around in the field all day.
But seriously, what is a ham&cheese toast without ham and cheese?

[Radical Reed]

How the hell cant you guys eat meat. Its sooo good. We here eat quite a lot of meat because it tastes soo good and we can get lots of it and you dont have to think about the animals because theyre running around in the field all day.


I second that, i remember i tried going vegitarian once it was 3 days before my mom cooked porkchops and then i gave up, mmmmm porkchops.

[Borges]

well, I hate meat, but my parents SUCK and force me to eat it sometimes. which is completely stupid.

That does sound stupid. What's their reason?

[koebwil]

...and you dont have to think about the animals because theyre running around in the field all day.
http://www.eggscam.com/img/photos/e10.jpg

[James_Potter]

That does sound stupid. What's their reason?
pretty much because they think vegetarianism is unhealthy.

[James_Potter]

you dont have to think about the animals because theyre running around in the field all day.
themeatrix.com/

[koebwil]

themeatrix.com/
hells yeah. Also get a vegetarian or vegan cookbook if you want to show your parents it's healthy. They normally have a section in the front about health.

[wobblyjohn]

I've been off the meat, mostly, since about ten years ago when I was eating on $10 a week. I think digesting the stuff is an aquired skill, it just doesn't sit right anymore.
My first 20 years were fueled by eggs, steak, hamburger, milk, all covered in cheese. Two years ago, my cholesterol count had dropped to 124, (52 hdl, 72 ldl) from a previous peak near 200.
I know way too many people with type 2 diabetes, cardiovascular problems, colon cancer, lethargic obesity, or just my coworkers who simply dropped dead without warning! One at 39, one at 33, of previously undetected vascular deposits. Besides, meat's boring. Fish, cow, fowl, pig. The rest just tastes like chicken anyways. Carnivores get the meat section, while I still haven't tried everything in the entire rest of the supermarket!
pretty much because they think vegetarianism is unhealthy.
Fight back with facts!
http://www.vegsoc.org/
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/etext/000058.html
http://www.eatright.org/cps/rde/xchg/ada/hs.xsl/advocacy_933_ENU_HTML.htm

Discovered this one just a little while back:
If you track milk consumption in demographic and geographic regions, it maintains a direct relation to osteoperosis. It turns out that bovine milk protein is not digestable by at least 90% of the human population. The surplus protein ends up in the bloodstream, raising the Ph, ultimately leaching calcium from bones.

[koebwil]

Discovered this one just a little while back:
If you track milk consumption in demographic and geographic regions, it maintains a direct relation to osteoperosis. It turns out that bovine milk protein is not digestable by at least 90% of the human population. The surplus protein ends up in the bloodstream, raising the Ph, ultimately leaching calcium from bones.
I'll have to use that.

[forrestunifreak]

I eat meat. I eat so much meat it probablly makes up for all the meat you meatless plant people eat.

[forrestunifreak]

[IMGhttp://www.eggscam.com/img/photos/e10.jpg[/IMG]

Thats nothing. I've had my arms up to my elbows gutting an elk three times my size. Then had it for dinner the next day.

Whats the deal?

[Mikefule]

I was semi-vegetarian from about 1987, with occasional lapses. Then I gave up seafood (for ethical reasons) around 1990, and gave up meat fully in 1993. I sometimes miss pork, fish, and especially kedgeree. I don't miss having meat with every meal.

Ruth, my girlfriend, has been vegetarian for most of her adult life, and her two girls, Caroline (21) and Charlotte (23) have never eaten meat or fish since birth. They are the two healthiest young women you could hope to meet.

I gave up fish first because I was heavily into marine conservation at the time. I was a scuba diver. Commercially caught fish is caught in the most destructive manner. Imagine trying to catch a rabbit for your tea by driving a bulldozer through the field until you caught one. I've seen film and photos of the sea bed after trawling, and it isn't pretty.

Farmed salmon is bad because the food and chemicals they drop into the nets form a plume downstream in the tide, damaging the natural ecosystem for a long way. I've dived and seen the results.

I gave up meat mainly out of solidarity with Ruth. There are many arguments against eating farmed meat. The strongest from my personal point of view is the way that animals are transported. When foot and mouth disease erupted in Devon a few years ago, it was carried there by animals transported from Cumbria. They were to be fattened in Devon before being moved to Essex for slaughter. Those are very long journeys for a human in a car, who can stop for a break and to stretch his legs. Unthinkable for animals trapped in the back of a lorry.

There are many inconsistencies in the vegetarian position. (For example, I wear leather shoes. I take a "common sense" view of the tiny traces of suet in shop bought pastry. I drink milk and eat cheese, even though the industry that produces these relies on the slaughter of calves.) I remind myself that countless hedgehogs are run over by lorries full of carrots, and that huge numbers of animals are displaced or killed by the oil industry and the air transport industry to allow Sainsbury's to get my beans to me from Africa, or my bananas to me from the Caribbean. You can only do so much. The world is doomed anyway.

As for healthiness: I'm 43, 5'7", 155 pounds (approx.) and dance at least once a week, fence 2-3 times, and ride a unicycle when time allows. I'm seldom ill, and have never once needed a sick note from my doctor.

As for flavour: once you stop expecting meat with every meal, the variety of flavours and textures you get with properly cooked fresh vegetable is amazing.

As for cooking: dead easy. And the pans are so easy to clean.

As for meat eaters: good luck to you. I don't expect you to change for me. The arguments for vegetarianism are there for you to accept or reject, in whole or in part. All I ask is that you respect my position.

As with unicycling, there are no original vegetarian jokes - there are only people who try to be funny and fail.

[forrestunifreak]

What does being a vegatarian have to do with health? I eat meat and am the healthiest young man you could meet, to put it bluntly.

[koebwil]

What does being a vegatarian have to do with health? I eat meat and am the healthiest young man you could meet, to put it bluntly.
dude look at your photo, you look like you are at the brink of death.

[matt_t]

May I suggest some reading? It might not be to everyone's taste but anyway...
http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=grill
http://web.archive.org/web/20041107084521/http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
For the record I'm a veggie, but Maddox always makes me laugh. All I'd say is that at least the animals that get mown down by combines get to run around in a field all their lives and die quickly.
He does have a point about PETA, they are pretty self-righteous which turns a lot of people off even if their basic message is sound. Maybe if they quit being so high and mighty they'd get more support.

[koebwil]

May I suggest some reading? It might not be to everyone's taste but anyway...
http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=grill
http://web.archive.org/web/20041107084521/http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
For the record I'm a veggie, but Maddox always makes me laugh. All I'd say is that at least the animals that get mown down by combines get to run around in a field all their lives and die quickly.
He does have a point about PETA, they are pretty self-righteous which turns a lot of people off even if their basic message is sound. Maybe if they quit being so high and mighty they'd get more support.
I like maddox too, he is hilarious.

[forrestunifreak]

dude look at your photo, you look like you are at the brink of death.

It's called a 'sneeze'

[koebwil]

It's called a 'sneeze'
How did you get a photo of yourself sneezing?

[matt_t]

I like maddox too, he is hilarious.
Tell me about it, he'll always have a special place in my heart for what he did to Bill O'Reilly. Genius!

[forrestunifreak]

How did you get a photo of yourself sneezing?


I didn't, its the aftermath of the sneeze, when I was still trying to get my eyes straight.

[koebwil]

oh, if it was a photo of yourself actually during a sneeze that would be amazing.

[dudewithasock]

I am most certainly not a vegan/vegetarian. In fact, if meat did have pretty much all the nutrients needed to live a healthy life, I would be a voluntary carnivore. I know you said not to say this (although I don't get your reasoning for it), but I just think meat tastes good, and don't see the point in abandoning something that won't harm you if cooked properly, can be very beneficial to your health, and tastes so damn good.

However, I do respect people's personal lifestyle choices, especially if it's like a food allergy thing or something, or any other reason like that. But for the people who are just animal rights activists or whatnot, remember this:

http://img54.imageshack.us/img54/5017/animalshirt9ja.jpg

[James_Potter]

I know you said not to say this (although I don't get your reasoning for it), but I just think meat tastes good, and don't see the point in abandoning something that won't harm you if cooked properly, can be very beneficial to your health, and tastes so damn good.
cholesterol comes only from animal products.
if its cooked properly...it still contains cholesterol.
you can get the same nutrients from non-meat products as you can from meat products.

also, I just think it's icky.

[dudewithasock]

cholesterol comes only from animal products.
if its cooked properly...it still contains cholesterol.
you can get the same nutrients from non-meat products as you can from meat products.

also, I just think it's icky.

Well then I'll take my chances with the cholesterol, just because I think it tastes delicious. Who wants to live past 60, anyway? :cool:

[dorfman]

im not a vegatarian or veagan but i am a hippie so douse that count close

[dudewithasock]

im not a vegatarian or veagan but i am a hippie so douse that count close

Duuuuude.

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/6210/hippy4pe.jpg

[James_Potter]

What does being a vegatarian have to do with health? I eat meat and am the healthiest young man you could meet, to put it bluntly.
probably because you're a teenager...you'll be fat when you're fifty!! FAT!

[James_Potter]

im not a vegatarian or veagan but i am a hippie so douse that count close
you can't be a hippie if you eat meat, man....

[wobblyjohn]

Well then I'll take my chances with the cholesterol, just because I think it tastes delicious. Who wants to live past 60, anyway? :cool:
I used to know a retired seventh day adventist pastor, he was 86 and ran 5 miles every day. His church was full of old fashioned vegetarian adventists, and out of a congregation of less than 800, they had 16 centenerians. Only one or two of those didn't walk to church.
I'll take it!
And I'll second Mikefule's comment on cleanup. Dish soap commercials make me laugh! So much grease in one place. It's hard to believe people really eat meat saturated with lard, and don't gag on it.

[James_Potter]

Well then I'll take my chances with the cholesterol, just because I think it tastes delicious. Who wants to live past 60, anyway? :cool:
the thing is, if you are unhealthy, then being old can be unpleasant. if you are healthy, then being old can be just as good as being young.

[john_childs]

May I suggest some reading? It might not be to everyone's taste but anyway...
http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=grill
http://web.archive.org/web/20041107084521/http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
For the record I'm a veggie, but Maddox always makes me laugh. All I'd say is that at least the animals that get mown down by combines get to run around in a field all their lives and die quickly.
He does have a point about PETA, they are pretty self-righteous which turns a lot of people off even if their basic message is sound. Maybe if they quit being so high and mighty they'd get more support.
Not only do you have to worry about the slaughter of animals in the field just so we can eat grains and veggies, but we also have to worry about bugs being intentionally added to our food.

FDA: You're eating crushed bug juice (http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/01/27/insect.dye.ap/index.html)
At least it's red, like blood.

I don't really see what the big deal is. We already get plenty of bugs and bits of dead animal in our grains and other food anyways. Where do you think the bugs in the field end up when the grain is harvested? Some of them end up in your flour, in your granola, or oat meal, and all sorts of other food. Was that black speck on the Cheerio I ate a dead bug speck or just a burnt bit of grain? :eek:

[James_Potter]

thats interesting. kinda weird, but yeah, its not that big of a deal to me....
http://www.snopes.com/food/ingredient/bugjuice.htm

[dudewithasock]

the thing is, if you are unhealthy, then being old can be unpleasant. if you are healthy, then being old can be just as good as being young.

Lemme put it this way - I wouldn't enjoy being old if I couldn't have any prime rib. kthx

[DK]

im not a vegatarian or veagan but i am a hippie so douse that count close

hippies suck

[James_Potter]

hippies are awesome.

[john_childs]

hippies suck

You didn't finish the sentence.

Hippies suck weed.

[James_Potter]

Lemme put it this way - I wouldn't enjoy being old if I couldn't have any prime rib. kthx
well...you need more life, if the one thing you can't live without is prime rib.

[koebwil]

hippies suck
I can't stand people who hate "hippies" there aren't anymore hippies, just people who claim to be hippies. Do you hate flappers too? What are your feelings on 69ers?

[DK]

You didn't finish the sentence.

Hippies suck weed.

Yes, and thats all they do.

Theres a bunch of hippies where I live and they all bitch about politics and stuff but are too high to vote or take a stand.

And besides, its 2006, and I dont want any rainbow love rice.

[koebwil]

Weed isn't bad if used in moderation, like alcohol.

[James_Potter]

Weed isn't bad if used in moderation, like alcohol.
you mean weed isn't as bad if used in moderation. I still think its bad. I think alcohol is bad too. but in moderation, its not as bad as it could be.
but this is off topic....

[koebwil]

you mean weed isn't as bad if used in moderation. I still think its bad. I think alcohol is bad too. but in moderation, its not as bad as it could be.
but this is off topic....
no, most discussions about being veg eventually work around to smoking weed. Anyway, where would you prefer for this discussion to go?

[James_Potter]

no, most discussions about being veg eventually work around to smoking weed. Anyway, where would you prefer for this discussion to go?
hmm, yes, I suppose you're right. its all about whether ingesting different things is good or bad for you, and whether you like it or not. makes sense.

[koebwil]

hmm, yes, I suppose you're right. its all about whether ingesting different things is good or bad for you, and whether you like it or not. makes sense.
I don't honestly care what other people do with their bodies, as long as they don't hurt other people as a result, but I don't want to hate people for being omnivorous (even though they hurt animals). Normally I only get really angry if people make fun of veg people.

[James_Potter]

I don't honestly care what other people do with their bodies, as long as they don't hurt other people as a result, but I don't want to hate people for being omnivorous (even though they hurt animals). Normally I only get really angry if people make fun of veg people.
yeah, thats pretty much exactly how I look at it...I do think that smoking at all is a bad idea, however, its not my responsibility to tell other people what to do. thats why I think marijuana should be legal, even though I don't think anyone should smoke it.

[koebwil]

yeah, thats pretty much exactly how I look at it...I do think that smoking at all is a bad idea, however, its not my responsibility to tell other people what to do. thats why I think marijuana should be legal, even though I don't think anyone should smoke it.
You must be a libertarian too.

[dudewithasock]

well...you need more life, if the one thing you can't live without is prime rib.

I hope you're kidding...

That was just an example. But seriously, if I could not eat any meat, that would make me pretty depressed. Don't get me wrong, I <3 non-meatz, but I need both to stay satisfied.

Just out of curiosity, what's your own personal reason for being a vegetarian, jp? Just the taste?

[DK]

Weed isn't bad if used in moderation, like alcohol.

I do both, but in moderation.

You must be a libertarian too.

I'm pretty libertarian the social portion but they are a little too hardcore, or at least Badnarik is, about low taxes.

[James_Potter]

Just out of curiosity, what's your own personal reason for being a vegetarian, jp? Just the taste?
mostly its just I don't like the taste, but I also don't really like the concept of eating dead animal...I don't know, just gives me the creeps, eating muscle. you know.

[James_Potter]

You must be a libertarian too.
I don't really know what I am politically...but yeah, I guess libertarian fits my beliefs pretty well.

[dudewithasock]

mostly its just I don't like the taste, but I also don't really like the concept of eating dead animal...I don't know, just gives me the creeps, eating muscle. you know.

Actually I don't know, lol. But I'll take your word for it, and I'll keep eating flesh. :p

[RichVoice]

There are many inconsistencies in the vegetarian position. (For example, I wear leather shoes.
Depending on your reasons for being a vegetarian, that's not necessarily an inconsistency.

I've been a vegetarian for 13 or 14 years now, and the main reason was that I didn't want to be directly responsible for an animal being killed just so that I could be fed, when I could be fed just as well with plant-based foods (as someone else pointed out with the "bugs in the grain" story, there are all sorts of indirect creature deaths caused by my desire to eat, but as you say, Mike, there's only so much you can do). But wearing leather isn't inconsistent with that, because the vast majority of leather comes from animals that weren't killed for their hide, they were killed for their meat. I didn't contribute in any way to the death of the animal, and since they're dead at that point I don't think it really matters much whether or not I use their former skin.

I've said for a long time that as soon as a large enough percentage of the population becomes vegetarian and they start killing cows for their hides and throwing away the meat, I'll stop wearing leather.

Hides with fur on them are, of course, the exception (although I don't really have any data on the consumption of mink or rabbit meat to back that up). Which is why I'd never buy fur.

Rich

[Mikefule]

But wearing leather isn't inconsistent with that, because the vast majority of leather comes from animals that weren't killed for their hide, they were killed for their meat.

Not quite. They were killed as part of an industry that produces meat, bonemeal, leather and various other by products.

If there is a difference, it is that you can choose to live healthily and well without eating meat, but there is nothing that works like leather for certain clothing applications such as shoes, motorbike jackets etc.

But really, let's be honest, if we are vegetarian but wear leather, we are simply choosing to draw a line at an arbitrary point. I'm inconsistent and arbitrary about lots of things. We all are.

In a perfect world, maybe we'd all be vegans, growing our own crops. It isn't going to happen.

[RichVoice]

Not quite. They were killed as part of an industry that produces meat, bonemeal, leather and various other by products.
Certainly the industry produces all of those things by killing the animals. But the animals were not killed for those other things, they were killed for their meat. Hence the term "by-product" (as opposed to the "product," meat). I can't say I blame the industry for trying to make use of those by-products, it makes perfect business sense to do so. If there's a market for those items -- even if the industry created the market -- there's no reason not to make use of them. But the industry doesn't exist to sell the by-products, it exists to sell the product. As soon as leather (or any of the other by-products) becomes the primary product driving the industry, I'll re-consider.

(I should note that I actually try to avoid leather. Not because I believe I'm being hypocritical to wear it, but because the less leather I wear, the less likely it is that I'll be taken to task by someone who thinks I'm being a hypocrite.)
But really, let's be honest, if we are vegetarian but wear leather, we are simply choosing to draw a line at an arbitrary point. I'm inconsistent and arbitrary about lots of things. We all are.
I can't argue there. I'm always amused when people point out moral and ethical "lines in the sand" that others have drawn, shouting "hypocrisy!" and the like, as if to say that they don't draw any such lines. I don't think I'd use the word arbitrary, as I think it connotes a lack of critical thought, but your point is well-taken.

Rich

[Mikefule]

I don't think I'd use the word arbitrary, as I think it connotes a lack of critical thought, but your point is well-taken.


As in arbitrator, arbitration... same word stem. It means making a decision by application of judgement, even when there are arguments both ways, when a decision has to be made. It is not the same as random.

What is the safe speed limit for cars in a built up area? 25 mph? 26? 27? 34.6 mph?

We'd all agree 1 mph is too slow to be practicable, and 90 mph would be dangerously fast. But who's to choose between 28 and 30 mph? That is an arbitrary decision arising from the application and judgement, balancing the objectives and consequences, where a decision has to be made. What is the age of consent? 16? Well, what if a girl is 15 yrs and 11 months and the boy is 16 yrs and 1 day? Or the age for drinking alcohol. 18? Why not 17 or 19? You can drive a car at 17, but can't drink until 18 - although you could be legally married with 2 legitimate children by then.

These are all arbitrary rules, but not reached without critical thought and judgement. They are not random.

[fexnix]

It´s been resarched quite a bit here in Sweden (by me ;), totally un-scientific and all) and the results were astonishing!

90 % of the Swedish unicycling community are either vegetarians or vegans!
(not really, but almost)

[RichVoice]

As in arbitrator, arbitration... same word stem. It means making a decision by application of judgement, even when there are arguments both ways, when a decision has to be made. It is not the same as random.
Thanks, Mike. Believe it or not, you just shed some light on a heated conversation I had almost four years ago.

Checking my trusty "guidebook," ;) I see that "selected at random and without reason" is one of the definitions of "arbitrary." I had thought that it was basically the only definition, but I see that's it's not, and that your description is accurate.

Thanks again. I'm sure that'll come in handy in the future!

Rich

[dudewithasock]

In a perfect world, maybe we'd all be vegans, growing our own crops. It isn't going to happen.

...where did you get that from? That would not be a perfect world...

[phlegm]

...where did you get that from? That would not be a perfect world...

So, are you saying the perfect world would permit death and the exploitation of other living beings? How is that perfect?

[Mikefule]

...where did you get that from? That would not be a perfect world...

The operative word was "maybe".

As far as I'm concerned, it isn't my business to harangue meat eaters for doing something that they regard as perfectly natural, but it is fair to bring to their attention the unnatural elements that the modern world introduces: factory farming, hormone injections, transportation, industrialised slaughter etc. Then you may choose, just as you may choose to vote one way or the other, or buy an SUV or a bicycle.

If I were alone on a desert island, I would see nothing wrong with hunting animals for food. It would be me or the rabbit, on equal terms.

All wild animals die either by disease, starvation or predation. Foxes, rabbits, and fish do not die quietly in their beds (although mussels might). My problem is with cattle, sheep and pigs (etc.) being forced to live in unnatural conditions, pumped full of drugs, transported for hours in cramped lorries then killed inhumanely.

[dudewithasock]

Ok, to the two above posts - there's really no point in debating this with either of you, since this is one of those things that people feel strongly about. But I think that not eating meat at all, ever again, would be a living hell for me. But I do respect ya'll's opinions, and I don't want to step on any toes here, so let's leave it at that.

[RichVoice]

But I think that not eating meat at all, ever again, would be a living hell for me.
Matt, that's just silly. Give yourself more credit than that! Holy cow (pun intended), you might miss it once in awhile, but a living hell? Good grief, you're young and intelligent, I'm sure you'd be able to figure out how to live a perfectly happy life without eating meat.

Not that I'm trying to convince you, just give yourself more points in the creativity department!

Rich

[dudewithasock]

It always seemed to me that humans were meant to be omnivores. I just don't think it's natural to avoid one entire food category.

[James_Potter]

It always seemed to me that humans were meant to be omnivores. I just don't think it's natural to avoid one entire food category.
I agree...but unicycling isn't natural either.

[koebwil]

It always seemed to me that humans were meant to be omnivores. I just don't think it's natural to avoid one entire food category.
If we evolved from monkeys, and monkeys eat plants. Shouldn't we be eating plants.

[dudewithasock]

Just because we possibly evolved from monkeys, doesn't mean we ARE monkeys. Our bodies evolved, why can't our eating habits?

[dudewithasock]

I agree...but unicycling isn't natural either.

Do you eat unicycles? O.o

[James_Potter]

Do you eat unicycles? O.o
no, thats not what I said...I said unicycling is unnatural. doesn't make it bad, though, does it?

[koebwil]

The fact of the matter is meat is unhealthy. I don't see why you would think it is natural to eat something that is not healthy for you.

[James_Potter]

The fact of the matter is meat is unhealthy. I don't see why you would think it is natural to eat something that is not healthy for you.
well, it also has beneficial nutrients...sure it contains a lot of cholesterol, but it also contains a lot of iron, and protein.

[dudewithasock]

no, thats not what I said...I said unicycling is unnatural. doesn't make it bad, though, does it?

I never said being a vegetarian is bad:

But I do respect ya'll's opinions,

However, I do respect people's personal lifestyle choices,

[dudewithasock]

The fact of the matter is meat is unhealthy. I don't see why you would think it is natural to eat something that is not healthy for you.

Because it tastes good, and good taste is equal to pleasure, which is a type of self-indulgence, and nature is built around self-indulgences; that's how species survive.

[James_Potter]

I never said being a vegetarian is bad:
ohh, you're right.
well, here:
It always seemed to me that humans were meant to be omnivores. I just don't think it's natural to avoid one entire food category.
you implied it (:

[dudewithasock]

Lol, something being unnatural doesn't automatically make it bad. Like you said, unicycling is unnatural, but it's far from bad.

[James_Potter]

Because it tastes good, and good taste is equal to pleasure, which is a type of self-indulgence, and nature is built around self-indulgences; that's how species survive.
I rather disagree...self indulgences are most of the time bad for survival of species. drugs, for example. and meat, though not as much, still is bad for you, thus lowering your chance of survival to a ripe old age.

[dudewithasock]

Well I meant more in general, as in like, feeding yourself, having sex, etc. are necessary to keep a species alive, and self indulgence is a core part of those sorts of things.

My mindset may not make a lot of sense to you, but yours doesn't make a lot of sense to me, so oh well. :p

[koebwil]

I rather disagree...self indulgences are most of the time bad for survival of species. drugs, for example. and meat, though not as much, still is bad for you, thus lowering your chance of survival to a ripe old age.
If we didn't indulge ourselves where would the children come from.

[Checkernuts]

I dont get what you are fighting about, 5 years ago I would probably say I could never really be a vegitarian, but after going 4 months without eating any meat because of one reason or another I can see that it doesnt mean giving up good tasty food, or really take that much work if you have the right diet.

I'm at the point now were I honestly dont care, I had a steak the other day and was wishing I got a plate of the side dish (curried butternut squash with a apple hash and mole) The veggies were way better than the main dish by far.

And yes you are both right, eating meat can be bad I dont know anyone who eats 2lbs of bacon a day and isnt 200lbs. Also eating rice all day long isnt good either but would make you a vegetarian. Any diet can be lopsided a good diet can include meat or just plant items in it.

[James_Potter]

monogamous sex is fine, and enjoying it is fine too, but indulging yourself too much is bad. as in, having sex with different people every day and all that.

[koebwil]

monogamous sex is fine, and enjoying it is fine too, but indulging yourself too much is bad. as in, having sex with different people every day and all that.
I guess you don't approve of my swinging lifestyle. I am a wild and crazy guy. :)

[dudewithasock]

I dont get what you are fighting about, 5 years ago I would probably say I could never really be a vegitarian, but after going 4 months without eating any meat because of one reason or another I can see that it doesnt mean giving up good tasty food, or really take that much work if you have the right diet.

I'm at the point now were I honestly dont care, I had a steak the other day and was wishing I got a plate of the side dish (curried butternut squash with a apple hash and mole) The veggies were way better than the main dish by far.

And yes you are both right, eating meat can be bad I dont know anyone who eats 2lbs of bacon a day and isnt 200lbs. Also eating rice all day long isnt good either but would make you a vegetarian. Any diet can be lopsided a good diet can include meat or just plant items in it.

Well that's the thing, I really see no point in switching to vegetarianism.

I have never said one time in this entire thread that being a vegetarian or vegan is bad, it's just not for me. I just have no incentive to make the switch.

And I do understand your example about 2 pounds of bacon a day, however that's not the typical non-vegan/vegetarian. I am a very healthy person that just loves his occasional slab of juicy medium-rare steak, or a burger every once and a while. I absolutely love salads, rice, vegetables, fruits, all that stuff, I just think the best diet for me is balanced on both sides of the equation.

[James_Potter]

Well that's the thing, I really see no point in switching to vegetarianism.
I have never said one time in this entire thread that being a vegetarian or vegan is bad, it's just not for me. I just have no incentive to make the switch.

And I do understand your example about 2 pounds of bacon a day, however that's not the typical non-vegan/vegetarian. I am a very healthy person that just loves his occasional slab of juicy medium-rare steak, or a burger every once and a while. I absolutely love salads, rice, vegetables, fruits, all that stuff, I just think the best diet for me is balanced on both sides of the equation.
I'm sure you're right, the healthiest diet has both enough meat and enough fruits and veggies.
I'll still eat meat occasionally...generally, I never eat beef or pork. but if I feel like it, or if theres nothing better, I'll have either chicken or fish. I don't really like it, its kinda yucky, but hey, its food!!

[refuze]

Lemme put it this way - I wouldn't enjoy being old if I couldn't have any prime rib. kthx

you sound like my dad who by the way because of his food choices is now living with diabetes, and now has to watch his food intake more then ever.... although he doesnt cause he doenst want to be told what he can and cannot eat...

and well frankly, that ype of additude pisses me off!! not saying you are pissing me off, just my father.
and another thing that is messed up is the amount of over weight people, lazy, people with terrible eating habbits... and i mean the really huge ones, not just fat....
when i first went veg, i lost weight, and had more energy then i ever had, and i am still full of energy.....
i used to a chef, at a healthfood store, and there was this guy that always came in to eat my food... one day we had a chat, he asked how old i thought he was, well i guessed about 30 cause thats how old he looked....
he looked at me and said i have been vegetarian for over 40 years!!!!
he has 63!!!! i met his wife, who ate meat, adn she looked to be around 70ish and she was in her 50's!!!!!
im just about 24 and i like like im a teenager i cant wait to see what i look like when im in my 50's and 60's!!!

[Mikefule]

monogamous sex is fine, and enjoying it is fine too, but indulging yourself too much is bad. as in, having sex with different people every day and all that.

I think you should publish full details of your research and subject them to peer review.

[Mikefule]

Because it tastes good, and good taste is equal to pleasure, which is a type of self-indulgence, and nature is built around self-indulgences; that's how species survive.

Good taste is equal to pleasure? You mean I'd be happier with a quieter neck tie?:rolleyes:

[Mikefule]

I rather disagree...self indulgences are most of the time bad for survival of species. drugs, for example. and meat, though not as much, still is bad for you, thus lowering your chance of survival to a ripe old age.

Two different ideas. The survival of the species is nothing to do with the survival of individuals to a ripe old age. The survival of the species depends only on surviving until your young are able to survicve without you.

Survival to ripe old age is a possible benefit for the individual, subject to health and happiness.

[Tim Morin]

I eat meat (mostly white), but I don't rely heavily on it. I eat many different beans, and soy products. I switched to soy milk a couple years ago. I eat eggs on occasion, but not very often.

So, no. I am not a vegetarian, or a vegan. But I'm certainly open to the health benefits. I don't feel bad eating meat, nor do I have any moral dilemna. I always thank the Creator for the food I eat.

The only concern I have with people not eating meat is, are they eating enough of other foods to compensate for the nutrients they miss. I knew a friend of my mom's who got very sick because she gave meat, and didn't change her diet to compensate.

Be careful.

[dudewithasock]

you sound like my dad who by the way because of his food choices is now living with diabetes, and now has to watch his food intake more then ever.... although he doesnt cause he doenst want to be told what he can and cannot eat...

and well frankly, that ype of additude pisses me off!! not saying you are pissing me off, just my father.
and another thing that is messed up is the amount of over weight people, lazy, people with terrible eating habbits... and i mean the really huge ones, not just fat....
when i first went veg, i lost weight, and had more energy then i ever had, and i am still full of energy.....
i used to a chef, at a healthfood store, and there was this guy that always came in to eat my food... one day we had a chat, he asked how old i thought he was, well i guessed about 30 cause thats how old he looked....
he looked at me and said i have been vegetarian for over 40 years!!!!
he has 63!!!! i met his wife, who ate meat, adn she looked to be around 70ish and she was in her 50's!!!!!
im just about 24 and i like like im a teenager i cant wait to see what i look like when im in my 50's and 60's!!!

Well, like I said, switching to vegetarianism for health purposes is perfectly fine - but I'm not fat, nor overweight. In fact, I'm below the average weight of people my age - not so much as to be unhealthy, I'm just very slender. If I needed to change my eating habits because of health risks, then sure, I'd be willing too - but I would still do it a bit reluctantly.

[James_Potter]

Well, like I said, switching to vegetarianism for health purposes is perfectly fine - but I'm not fat, nor overweight. In fact, I'm below the average weight of people my age - not so much as to be unhealthy, I'm just very slender. If I needed to change my eating habits because of health risks, then sure, I'd be willing too - but I would still do it a bit reluctantly.
I don't think that was his point...the point is that you'll be sorry for your poor eating habits in the future, even though you couldn't care less right now.

[RichVoice]

I'm below the average weight of people my age - not so much as to be unhealthy, I'm just very slender. If I needed to change my eating habits because of health risks, then sure, I'd be willing too - but I would still do it a bit reluctantly.
My dad had a heart attack at 58, when one of his coronary arteries was over 90% blocked. At the time, I think he weighed all of about 160lbs.

Not trying to convince you to change your diet, just remember that outward appearance often has little to do with internal health.

Rich

[James_Potter]

I think you should publish full details of your research and subject them to peer review.
I haven't done research. just ask the 40 million people around the world with AIDS.

[dudewithasock]

I don't think that was his point...the point is that you'll be sorry for your poor eating habits in the future, even though you couldn't care less right now.

...poor eating habits?

I'm sorry, that statement pisses me off a little - you're insinuating that I eat trashy food just because I like meat? I hope you were exaggerating/generalizing there, because otherwise, you have no place to talk about my eating habits.

[dudewithasock]

My dad had a heart attack at 58, when one of his coronary arteries was over 90% blocked. At the time, I think he weighed all of about 160lbs.

Not trying to convince you to change your diet, just remember that outward appearance often has little to do with internal health.

Rich

Well I'm sorry for your loss - but that really only reinforces my position even more. Those sorts of things happen a lot because of family history and inactivity, as well as bad eating habits. I'm physically active and as far as I know, don't have any bad disease running in my family. If I die from a heart attack, then oh well, not much I can do about it after it happens.

[James_Potter]

...poor eating habits?

I'm sorry, that statement pisses me off a little - you're insinuating that I eat trashy food just because I like meat? I hope you were exaggerating/generalizing there, because otherwise, you have no place to talk about my eating habits.
okay, my apologies, I didn't mean that how it sounded...you don't have poor eating habits. but from what you've told me...you don't exactly have good eating habits either. so chances are you'll be as healthy as an average person.

[dudewithasock]

okay, my apologies, I didn't mean that how it sounded...you don't have poor eating habits. but from what you've told me...you don't exactly have good eating habits either. so chances are you'll be as healthy as an average person.

I still don't think it's your place to make that call, but I'm sorry for my outburst. I'm sure you meant well.

What I was trying to get across, and what I really want to get across to all anti-meateaters, is that people who do eat meat don't necessarily not eat anything else. Many, many meat eaters, myself included, load up on the veggies and fruits and all that good stuff, and also keep their diet balanced, sometimes to a point where it becomes a science. Just because you're a vegan doesn't make you any more healthy - it just requires different dietary techniques.

[forrestunifreak]

Wait, why are we disscussing not eating meat as being a health benifit? That is completly false. You think meat is bad for you?


Sure, it would be healthier to eat 'less' meat and more vegetables, fruits, dairy. But to cut out meat alltogether is silly. It would be MUCH more benifitable to cut out sweets, junk food, etc. (you know what I mean) and eat a variety.

[dudewithasock]

Wait, why are we disscussing not eating meat as being a health benifit? That is completly false. You think meat is bad for you?


Sure, it would be healthier to eat 'less' meat and more vegetables, fruits, dairy. But to cut out meat alltogether is silly. It would be MUCH more benifitable to cut out sweets, junk food, etc. (you know what I mean) and eat a variety.

Rep points if I could. :cool:

[James_Potter]

Wait, why are we disscussing not eating meat as being a health benifit? That is completly false. You think meat is bad for you?
Sure, it would be healthier to eat 'less'meat and more vegetables. But to cut out meat alltogether is silly. It would be MUCH more benifitable to cut out sweets, junk food, etc. (you know what I mean.)
I agree, it would be healthier to not eat junk food like that.
but cholesterol, which is undeniably bad for you, comes solely from animal sources. so, cut out all animal sources, and you'll have much lower cholesterol. of course, your body produces some cholesterol on its own, so its not like your cholesterol will be 0...because that would be bad too.

[RichVoice]

Well I'm sorry for your loss
Thanks, but no need: he'll be turning 72 this year. :)
but that really only reinforces my position even more.
Really? Here's what you wrote:
Well, like I said, switching to vegetarianism for health purposes is perfectly fine - but I'm not fat, nor overweight. <snip> If I needed to change my eating habits because of health risks, then sure, I'd be willing too - but I would still do it a bit reluctantly.
Sorry if I misunderstood, but it seems as though you're drawing a correlation between the fact that you're not overweight and the fact that you don't have any health risks: instead of writing that you have good genes in the heart disease area and you're active, you chose to write that you're not overweight. My point was simply that your appearance has little to do with your health risks.

You're certainly correct about family history and activity levels having an impact on health.

Na zdorovia!

Rich

[RichVoice]

Wait, why are we disscussing not eating meat as being a health benifit? That is completly false. You think meat is bad for you?
It's not completely false, but neither is it completely true. All of the following statements are true:

A vegetarian diet can be healthy
A vegetarian diet can be unhealthy
A meat-based diet can be healthy
A meat-based diet can be unhealthy

The important words are "can be."

I believe that the "average" vegetarian diet is more healthy than the "average" meat-based diet in the U.S. I don't have any specific data from studies to back that up, other than the facts that something like 95% of the country eats a meat-based diet, heart disease is (I think) the number one killer, dietary cholesterol comes entirely from animal products, and elevated levels of dietary cholesterol are implicated in heart disease. Most saturated fats in the diet also come from animal products, and elevated saturated fat intake is also implicated in heart disease.

That's all a side issue for me, since I don't eat animals because I choose not to be responsible for an animal's death simply to feed me when I can be perfectly happy and healthy eating plants instead. But I believe that when you look at the population as a whole, a diet that includes meat is less healthy than a diet that doesn't.

No argument on eating a variety of foods in whatever kind of diet you choose!

Rich

[Mikefule]

I haven't done research. just ask the 40 million people around the world with AIDS.

You haven't quite got the hang of this light-hearted banter thing have you?

[trials_uni]

im not veg but i love tofu turkey...its better than the real thing. my friends dad is veg so whenever i go there we eat veg food. alot of it i would rather eat than my normal food but i dont have the money to live the veg life...ive heard that you have to have alot of vitamin supplements...is that tru?.

[dudewithasock]

<snip>
Na zdorovia!

Rich

....wha?

[RichVoice]

....wha?
I had a Russian moment there. It means, "to your health" in Russian. :)
ive heard that you have to have alot of vitamin supplements...is that tru?.
No. There are plenty of vitamins in a plant-based diet with a lot of variety.

If you're vegan, B12 is a concern, but an occasional multivitamin usually takes care of that.

Rich

[irvinegr]

Umm i LOVE meat!!! i eat it alot and it taste soo yumy to me...

[James_Potter]

So, Mars candy company is now making their chocolate with Rennet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rennet), which comes from the stomachs of calves...making it a non-vegetarian food, similar to those containing gelatin.

[BillyTheMountain]

So, Mars candy company is now making their chocolate with Rennet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rennet), which comes from the stomachs of calves...making it a non-vegetarian food, similar to those containing gelatin.

Thanks! Lots of cheeses are also made with rennet, an animal product. Oreos are made with lard.

[CKCrowe]

Do vegetarians eat animal crackers???

[James_Potter]

I just did some research and decided rennet is far WORSE than gelatin, because it comes from veal calves who are treated even more inhumanely than regular dairy or beef cows...and that's by a lot.

[forrestunifreak]

I think I'll eat more Mars candy bars....

[Goats_On_Unicycles]

why the fuck would you put meat in something when you can't even taste it?
fucking people think we own the world and everything on it.

[burjzyntski]

Reminds me of the threadless t-shirt,

MEAT IS MURDER!
TASTY, TASTY MURDER...

I'm not vegetarian and I wouldn't want to be. Sure, I love animals, but since the beginning of time there have been animals that eat other animals. It's just natural.

I couldn't live without meat. Well, I guess I could...but, like I said, I wouldn't want to.

[James_Potter]

I think I'll eat more Mars candy bars....
Dude, seriously, I don't mind much if you eat meat, but veal is different. They take the calf away from the mother only days after birth and tied up in tiny crates where they can't move at all, so that the muscles are unable to develop. They're fed an all-liquid diet purposely low in iron to make the calves anemic for the same reason.
So eat meat if you want, but there's no reason to literally torture the animal before slaughtering him or her!

http://www.noveal.org/gallery/vealcow15.jpg

[Goats_On_Unicycles]

Dude, seriously, I don't mind much if you eat meat, but veal is different. They take the calf away from the mother only days after birth and tied up in tiny crates where they can't move at all, so that the muscles are unable to develop. They're fed an all-liquid diet purposely low in iron to make the calves anemic for the same reason.
So eat meat if you want, but there's no reason to literally torture the animal before slaughtering him or her!

http://www.noveal.org/gallery/vealcow15.jpg
the problem is that lots of people don't believe that animals can have thoughts, emotion or feel pain. :(

[James_Potter]

the problem is that lots of people don't believe that animals can have thoughts, emotion or feel pain. :(
True, but I think most people feel bad for the animals, they just love meat too much to stop eating it. So, the next best thing is to get them to eat more free-range and organic meat.

[forrestunifreak]

why the fuck would you put meat in something when you can't even taste it?

fucking people think we own the world and everything on it.

Uh... how does putting an enzime from animals in a candy bar relate to owning the world?

Never mind. I don't actually care.

[Jerrick]

True, but I think most people feel bad for the animals, they just love meat too much to stop eating it. So, the next best thing is to get them to eat more free-range and organic meat.

I try to eat all organic and free-range. At my house, its kinda hard, cause im the only one in my family doing it, but at Seras house. They have always been doing the free range/organic/vegetarian thing. I love dinner at their house.

[James_Potter]

Uh... how does putting an enzime from animals in a candy bar relate to owning the world?
Never mind. I don't actually care.
It relates if the enzyme comes from exploiting, torturing and destroying a sentient being that does not deserve it.

[saskatchewanian]

Dude, seriously, I don't mind much if you eat meat, but veal is different. They take the calf away from the mother only days after birth and tied up in tiny crates where they can't move at all, so that the muscles are unable to develop. They're fed an all-liquid diet purposely low in iron to make the calves anemic for the same reason.
So eat meat if you want, but there's no reason to literally torture the animal before slaughtering him or her!

http://www.noveal.org/gallery/vealcow15.jpg

I would just like to point out that what you describe is NOT the definition not veal. Veal is simply bovine that is slaughtered before it reaches 9 months of age and still weights less than 750lbs.

If the muscles were not able to develop then there would be no meat to eat. With formula fed veal their diet is designed to keep their iron levels low but NOT anemic levels. This is to prevent stronger flavor and coloring while keeping the animal healthy and allowing the muscles to grow.

I have never tried veal and I never buy meat but I can see why it would make a gourmet meal.

oh and James you should really give the photographer credit if you use their image, from the noveal.org website:
"Please feel free to use this image with credit to Farm Sanctuary"

Im not an advocate fore veal I just dislike misinformation.

[The.Mars.Volta]

I'm vegetarian and proud.

[forrestunifreak]

It relates if the enzyme comes from exploiting, torturing and destroying a sentient being that does not deserve it.

Ookay, how does exploiting, torturing and destroying a sentient being make somebody own the world?

[feel the light]

I think it's the way I was raised. I would feel really guilty after I killed something if I didn't eat it.:(
I raised tropical fish as a kid, and I still care about them. I consider it my moral obligation to go out and kill a big fish whenever I can. Did you know they spend their time swimming around all day eating babies ?:eek:
I wish I spent more time fishing, but one man can only do so much. Every grouper I kill saves 37 babies a day. :D
I don't know how the vagans can live with themselves. To know all these facts and yet they do nothing. A pox of artery clogging hydroginated palm oil upon them.

[skianduniaddict]

i ahte that its wrong to eat animals crap
1. why is it not wrong for a wolf to eat a deer and wrong for us
2. its proven that out teeth are geneticly deveolped to eat meat

[BluntRM]

Ookay, how does exploiting, torturing and destroying a sentient being make somebody own the world?

I don't know what the original context was trying to imply, maybe that the meat industry is ubiquitous? There are people that beat their dogs and this is justified because they own them-- But then ownership is only a philosophical outlook on life, practical for our functions, but really it's only an abstract idea when applied to people and animals.

[pix]

just thought i'd chime in, without getting too (directly) involved in the rest of the debates. i've been vegan for about 4 years, and i was vegetarian for about 10 years before that.

i'm not a fundamentalist about it. if a tricky situation somes up, i treat in the way that feels best to me. sometimes that might mean eating something that contains milk or cheese to avoid offending someone who has cooked for me. my decision to be vegan comes from my own view of the world, so i don't need to follow dogmatic rules just to maintain some kind of purity.

my reasons have changed a little over the time i have been vegan/vegetarian. at the moment they have settled on concerns about industrial food production. as a result, i don't have much of a problem with someone eating an animal they have killed themselves. but a very tiny proportion of people could actually do this, unless forced by extenuating circumstances.

i don't think veganism/vegetarianism is appropriate in every culture or situation but in the developed and comparatively decadent cultures that i imagine most of us live in, being vegetarian/vegan is so easy, that it makes it hard to justify the mistreatment of animals necessary to maintain a meat based diet.

as for the canine teeth argument, i think this only proves that humans can eat meat, not that they should. humans are likely in the position they are in the world right now because they are very adaptable. being able to eat a wide range of foods would have been very beneficial during our development as a species. now many of us humans find ourselves in a land of plenty, where we can afford to make small adjustments (sacrafices?) to our diets for the sake of responsibility and compassion.

on the health issue, i have to say, i honestly don't care. to be quite blunt about it, there are far too many of us (humans) and we live too long.

and regarding cholesterol in particular (and since i like to play the devils advocate occasionally), you actually need a small amount of cholesterol in order to synthesise seratonin. being someone that spends a lot of their life dealing with depression, i'm conscious of things like this. after being vegan for a very short time, my regular diet checks show 0% cholesterol.

and finally, for anyone who maintains that they don't see any sense in considering the feelings of an animal, i would challenge you to watch Our Daily Bread (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Daily_Bread_%282005_film%29) and honestly say that you weren't somewhat disturbed.

pix.

[James_Potter]

Ookay, how does exploiting, torturing and destroying a sentient being make somebody own the world?
If you try to do it to EVERYTHING in the world and don't care about the consequences.

[canada]

i'm anti-smart animal consumption. i wont eat dog, cat, horse, dolphin (these 4 were kinda obvious...), pig (that's a hard one to give up), salmon, or deer

[James_Potter]

i'm anti-smart animal consumption. i wont eat dog, cat, horse, dolphin (these 4 were kinda obvious...), pig (that's a hard one to give up), salmon, or deer
What, in your opinion, makes an animal smart or not?

[saskatchewanian]

i'm anti-smart animal consumption. i wont eat dog, cat, horse, dolphin (these 4 were kinda obvious...), pig (that's a hard one to give up), salmon, or deer
how about moose, elk, partridge, antelope, quail, pheasant, turkey, teal, roses geese, speckle bellies, pintails, big horn sheep and caribou? I think they are all probably smarter than salmon but I could be wrong.

[skianduniaddict]

you only need to go hunting once to realize that almost all animals (not bugs) are extremely intelligent

[James_Potter]

you only need to go hunting once to realize that almost all animals (not bugs) are extremely intelligent
I donno about the bugs man, I've never been hunting personally but I know that some people come back with only a few prizes, whereas our bug friends have gotten about a thousand or so bites on us.
Bugs - 1
Humans - 0

[James_Potter]

POWER TO THE PEOPLE!!
Due to massive boycotts and angry letters, Mars has already changed their plans about using rennet in their candy (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6673549.stm)!!!!

[epistolize]

<--- is a vegan vegetablarian.

i was born and brought up on a vegetarian diet (i had eggs and milk and honey, but not fish). recently (for the past couple of months), i've cut out wheat, yeast, eggs and milk.

i don't drink beer, but my favourite spirits are A O K! :p

[forrestunifreak]

<--- is a vegan vegetablarian.

i was born and brought up on a vegetarian diet (i had eggs and milk and honey, but not fish). recently (for the past couple of months), i've cut out wheat, yeast, eggs and milk.

i don't drink beer, but my favourite spirits are A O K! :p

Why no wheat and yeast? Are they bad for you or something?

[wickedbob]

the problem is that lots of people don't believe that animals can have thoughts, emotion or feel pain. :(

wait animals can feel pain and think?! Certainly not they are just stupid hunks of meat put here for me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!this was only a joke

[dudewithasock]

I had delicious prime rib tonight. Mmmmm.

[epistolize]

Why no wheat and yeast? Are they bad for you or something?

i had a food tolerance test done and was found to be intolerant to those foods so i've stopped eating them.

[The.Mars.Volta]

i hate when people think that chicken and fish aren't meat. it angers me. but i just tell em i dont eat dead animals. then they try pull the old, but plants are living too. then i lose.:(

[James_Potter]

i hate when people think that chicken and fish aren't meat. it angers me. but i just tell em i dont eat dead animals. then they try pull the old, but plants are living too. then i lose.:(
Tell 'em you don't eat sentient beings.

[forrestunifreak]

i had a food tolerance test done and was found to be intolerant to those foods so i've stopped eating them.

Ok, that's good. My dad is a registered dietition, and it's his job to study food sciences and stuff like that, and he also helps people with food sensitivitys and intolerances like that.

[Goats_On_Unicycles]

i hate when people think that chicken and fish aren't meat. it angers me. but i just tell em i dont eat dead animals. then they try pull the old, but plants are living too. then i lose.:(
man, that's so wierd! i mean, i'll be saying "oh, i'm a vegatarian" and they say "oh, well then have some fish" and i'm like "GAHHHHH!"

[wickedbob]

man, that's so wierd! i mean, i'll be saying "oh, i'm a vegatarian" and they say "oh, well then have some fish" and i'm like "GAHHHHH!"

how stupid can people be lol

[Goats_On_Unicycles]

how stupid can people be lol
unless you group fish with grains.
that would make sense...

[dudewithasock]

how stupid can people be lol

and i'm like "GAHHHHH!"

Tell me about it...who doesn't like fish?? :p

[john_childs]

i'm anti-smart animal consumption. i wont eat dog, cat, horse, dolphin (these 4 were kinda obvious...), pig (that's a hard one to give up), salmon, or deer
You didn't list cows. It's obvious to anyone who has raised cattle that they are not all that bright. They're almost as dumb as sheep. I often wonder how cows managed to survive before humans took care of them and raised them for milk and beef. They really aren't very bright animals. There is nothing going on in their heads. :rolleyes:

Pigs are higher on the intelligence scale. They're curious animals and can figure out how to manipulate some objects and can be trained to to tricks and obedience skills just like a dog. But they're still livestock and not a pet. I raised swine in 4H (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4-H). I had a grand champion crossbread gilt at the state fair one year. Her name was Tonka cause she was an earth mover. They're fun farm animals to have when there are just a few of them in a free range kind of farm setting. They're not so nice though in the large scale hog farms where they can get aggressive. After I raised the hogs in 4H I sold them at the county fair or had them butchered and we ate them.

I don't consider deer to be intelligent. Any appearance they have of intelligence is just instinct. When there get to be too many of them they get to be a nuisance and need to be thinned down by hunting.

[Goats_On_Unicycles]

When there get to be too many of them they get to be a nuisance and need to be thinned down by hunting.
what i hate about this whole "hunting is actually good for deer" thing is how hunters take the young, strong and healthy deer, leaving the old sick ones. that's certainly not good for the herds.

on the subject of intellegence though,
nothing comes close to beating goats.
goats are the smartest creatures alive.

[forrestunifreak]

on the subject of intellegence though,
nothing comes close to beating goats.
goats are the smartest creatures alive.

You must have some rare breed of goats then... Some friends of ours used to have goats, and they were easily the stupidist things I've ever seen. Eventually they got fed up and got rid of them all.

[James_Potter]

Tell me about it...who doesn't like fish?? :p
The Nirvana song Something In The Way has a line that says, "it's okay to eat fish, cause they don't have any feelings...."

[john_childs]

on the subject of intellegence though,
nothing comes close to beating goats.
goats are the smartest creatures alive.
Goats are curious and entertaining as farm animals. We also had several goats on the little farm along with sheep for 4H, swine for 4H, steers for eating (we named them Ham and Burger), and chickens for eggs and eating. The goats were fun. They'd climb up on climbing stumps we had in the pasture for them and then try to jump on the steers. Fun farm animals but they're not trainable like dogs or pigs. I don't consider goats to be that intelligent, just curious and playful. They're also handy for eating away weeds.

[mscalisi]

I would have more respect for meat-eating, if meat-eating was done with a little more respect.

I think people who expect to have meat in their diets should be required to kill their own animals. That way, you'd never let a hunk of meat go bad in your fridge, and you might have a little more respect and appreciation for the animal who's life you took for food.

As a society, we've become disconnected from our food sources (plant AND animal). I cringe when I think about people who buy meat conveniently pre-packaged without a thought (or care) about the conditions some animal had to endure in a factory farm.

[James_Potter]

I would have more respect for meat-eating, if meat-eating was done with a little more respect.
Me too! I always have more respect for those who hunt their own meat instead of buying a burger from McD's...first of all because animals that run around in the woods have a better life than factory farmed cattle, but also because hunters are doing the work themselves, know what goes into it, and so probably do respect the animals as living things even more.

[Divebomber]

The Nirvana song Something In The Way has a line that says, "it's okay to eat fish, cause they don't have any feelings...."

I thought it was "because they don't have any feet". Maybe I'm wrong. The "Lithium" maxi-single has all the lyrics for the album for "Nevermind" in the liner notes. I never checked, though...

[UniGirl4]

It would be very hard for me to be vegetarian because i'm allergic to nuts...and i do really like meat.

I love what my friend did...she was vegatarian for a year, she did this so she could disagree with it after experiencing it. It really bugs me when people hate on something they have not experienced first hand.

[BillyTheMountain]

The vegan parents in Atlanta, whose 3.5 pound baby died from vegan diet, were convicted of murder and several things in connection with the death. They just fed the baby soy milk and one other thing.

That's like the 4th vegan baby death.

Very bad.

[James_Potter]

I love what my friend did...she was vegatarian for a year, she did this so she could disagree with it after experiencing it. It really bugs me when people hate on something they have not experienced first hand.
If she did it with the goal of not liking it though, then she wouldn't end up liking it...if one goes into it just to see if its all its cracked up to be and see what its like, then make a decision afterwards, that makes more sense.
Also depending on why some people are Vegetarians, it might just be a matter of ingrained morals, which some people believe in and some people don't, and both are equally correct.

[Divebomber]

I don't mind vegan/vegetarians at all. As long as they keep their lifestyle choices to themselves. I do not believe that a vegan/vegetarian diet is for everyone. A friend of mine was told by her Dr. to not stop eating meat because of poor blood circulation. After reading about the vegan baby deaths it only proves to be a great lifestyle for some and not for all. Like I said, I don't care what you do just don't tell me about all the poor animals being killed etc..etc..I'm not trying to be mean, it's just that there are other causes I'm invested in.

[James_Potter]

The vegan parents in Atlanta, whose 3.5 pound baby died from vegan diet, were convicted of murder and several things in connection with the death. They just fed the baby soy milk and one other thing.
That's like the 4th vegan baby death.
Very bad.
True but know that most vegans aren't STUPID! Obviously babies need different proteins more than adults do, but some crazy radical vegan extremists refuse to accept that vegan diets are NOT natural and very unhealthy if you don't do them correctly...but if you do them correctly, they're the healthiest diet you can have.
Just don't match all vegans and vegetarians with cases like these.

[James_Potter]

I don't mind vegan/vegetarians at all. As long as they keep their lifestyle choices to themselves. I do not believe that a vegan/vegetarian diet is for everyone.
I agree, evangelical anythings are annoying...but honestly there's meat eaters who are just as bad, who seem to take it as a personal offense that I don't eat meat.

[tobbogonist]

I eat therefore i am.

As long as it keeps you alive, eat what you want.

eat and let eat.

i went vegetarian for about six months, but i was still living at home and it was more af an inconveneince for my parents than anything. Now they own an icecream parlour and a went through a stage of having a hotdog everyday :o now i have fruit salads.. I dunno just whatever fills the gap. although i will not eat lamb or veal and altough i find the actual 'hunting' part of hunting fun. i do not enjoy killing other things, i would rather shoot at targets, but for some reason i like the smell of blood :s it warms you up.