Should high school players have the right to refuse promotion to varsity?

[yoopers]

This is an article that appeared in the Rockford, IL news, rrstar.com, about a Rochelle High School sophomore baseball player that was penalized severely for refusing to play on the varsity team. It's a rather long article but very interesting and thought-provoking reading. The baseball player, Brett Russell, is an acquaintence of ours and his mother, Bonnie, works with me at the City.

The article sort of hits home with us because our son, Ben, was asked to play varsity soccer last fall as a freshman which he did. But he was allowed to play for both the JV and the varsity team. I'm not sure what we would've done if we were thrust into this situation.

There are a couple good questions at the end of the article. I'm interested in your input and reactions. There are also issues with some of the athletic head swirling around town but I'll reserve those comments for later.

********************

Rochelle moved Brett Russell from the sophomore team to the varsity. Russell turned down the invitation. And then found out it wasn't an invitation, it was an order.

Russell still said no. The result: Brett Russell no longer had a place at any level of Rochelle's baseball program.

"You can't say no to certain people here," his dad, Bubba Russell, said.

Bubba Russell meant Kevin Crandall, Rochelle's athletic director and highly successful football coach. Crandall, who made the ultimate decision, said he could not comment on any individual situation, but only on the general school policy. That policy says you can't say no to any Hubs' coach.

"We have to give our coaches the freedom to develop their programs as they see fit," Crandall said. "That means deciding what position each participant plays. What level they play. How much they play. All those things. Coaches need that."

The Russells say that's true on the team a player originally joins. But they say players, and their parents, should have veto power when a coach wants to move a player to a higher level.

"It's ridiculous," said Brett, a lefthanded pitcher who had a 3-0 record with one save, a 0.53 ERA and 13 strikeouts in 22 innings for Rochelle's sophomore team. "Parents and players should have at least some input into it. And we didn't have any say."

One of Brett's friends agrees so strongly that he, too, no longer plays for Rochelle. Brian Argetsinger, the sophomore shortstop and No. 3 hitter, wrote Russell's No. 33 on his game hat. When the coach told him he couldn't play unless he got a new hat, Argetsinger quit.

"I wasn't going to buy a new hat just to play," he said. "The hat I have now is fine."

Besides, he wanted to protest in support of his friend.

"I thought it was ridiculous," Argetsinger said. "A kid shouldn't be forced to do anything he doesn't want to do. We're not major leaguers. We didn't sign contracts saying we'll do whatever they want to do. We just signed up to play baseball. It's not like a job or anything."

The Russell situation is unusual. Coaches frequently promote sophomores and sometimes freshmen to the varsity in all sports, but calls to a half dozen coaches couldn't find one who ever had a player fight against a promotion.

"If you ask him to come up, the kid should be delighted," Rockford Guilford baseball coach Cory Schrank said. "I've got four sophomores on this team. If I told them they had to go back down, they'd kill me."

One of those sophomores, starting third baseman/pitcher Cody Scarpetta, said parents and the player should have a say in moving up.

"It's about himself," Scarpetta said. "If he wants to stay down, it should be his choice."

But sophomore second baseman DaQuan Lockhart said: "It's the coach's decision. If he says you are ready to play at this level, that's it. That's what's good for the team."

Winnebago volleyball coach Kelley De Wulf calls parents and speaks to her players before moving any girl up.

"But I inform them more than I ask," she said.

Machesney Park Harlem wrestling coach Tom Draheim said parents should only have a choice if they think the coach is putting their child "in harm's way" because he is desperately trying to fill an open spot. In all other circumstances, he says you go where the coach tells you to go.

"The choice is to play or not to play," Draheim said. "Once you say 'I'm on the team,' it's the coach's prerogative. Plain and simple, I'm the coach. You have to assume I know what's right and what's wrong and that I'm not trying to hurt the kid. It's a team thing, not an individual thing."

The Russells say that applies only to the specific team and level the player originally signs up for. They don't like Crandall's definition that all programs are part of the varsity level.

"He says once a player signs up, they become property of the athletic department in that school and can be moved up and down as they say," Bubba Russell said. "That sounds like they own him. That irritated me a little bit. Well, that irritated me a lot."

But other coaches agree with Crandall, saying a school's various levels are interconnected.

"When you sign up with a high school team, you sign up with the entire program," Rockford Boylan boys basketball coach Steve Goers said.

The Russells say Crandall accused them of "insubordination" when Brett refused to move up. "It's either their way or you are gone," said Brett's mom, Bonnie Russell.

It would be Draheim's way, too.

"I probably wouldn't let him wrestle, either," Draheim said.

Bubba and Bonnie Russell, who have both coached various youth teams, say this is nothing like a kid demanding to play a certain position.

"That's apples to oranges," Bonnie said. They say it's simply a player and his parents deciding what's best for him.

But Rochelle's sports philosophy is the good of the team trumps the good of the individual.

"One of the real goals of team sports is to instill in kids the idea that at times you have to sacrifice your own individual goals and wants for the good of the team," Crandall said. "There is a greater good involved than just what you get out of it. This lesson you learn in sports is a skill kids carry out into life. It's good in your marriage. Good in your job. It makes you a better neighbor. You learn how to grow together as a group."

Other coaches agree. Team comes first. Varsity is what matters; all other levels simply prepare players for varsity. But they make one exception: Players shouldn't move up if their playing time will go drastically down.

Brett Russell's parents said he wanted to stay with his friends.

"He's played ball with these guys since he was 9 years old and they were second in the state," Bonnie Russell said.

But Brett said he "didn't want to play varsity at all" because he thought varsity coach Jim Ressler would use him strictly as a pitcher. He was told he would be the starting pitcher in the first game of a Saturday doubleheader on his first day on the varsity.

"If I went up there, I would probably sit out the second game," said Russell, who also played first base on the sophomore team and was batting .460 with one home run. "He (Ressler) said I might play first, but I didn't believe him at all."

Russell said pitching one game a week "wouldn't have been enough at all. I'm more of an everyday player."

Guilford's Schrank said: "I can see the kid's standpoint from that angle. If you are going to bring him up, you have to play him on a regular basis."

Winnebago's De Wulf said: "I would never pull up a kid unless they are going to play a ton of time for me." But that doesn't always mean the same amount of time. She promoted a freshman this year who played three rotations a game at varsity rather than six at the freshman level.

"She thought it was the best thing that could ever happen," De Wulf said. "But part of me sees this kid's point. They want to get better as an overall player. But you've got to do what the team needs. Hopefully, you can find a happy middle ground. If not, I would grudgingly see it their way."

Colleen Finn-Henze, Lanark Eastland's girls basketball coach, calls refusing to move up to varsity "an ironic, interesting situation." She also finds it illogical for people to assume a coach would call them up, then not play them much.

"You want them to play," she said. "I would never move up a kid unless she is going to be a starter or the sixth or seventh man. It doesn't seem logical to me. If I were the kid's parents, I wouldn't think that would be logical, either. ... It almost does seem a little bit insubordinate to not at least give it a shot."

It doesn't feel insubordinate to Brett Russell. Just frustrating. And lonely.

Baseball is "a major part" of his life. "The only sport I've been very good at." And now he's off the Rochelle team. This summer, too. Rochelle High School coaches also run the town's Mickey Mantle summer team and have told Brett he's not welcome there this year. Brett said he might have to transfer to play baseball next year.

In the meantime, he sits.

"Coming home after school every day, having nothing to do, just sitting on my butt," he said. "I like to play baseball. Now, I'm not even practicing. I'd love just to practice baseball now. Just take some swings. I have lots of time to do it. But I don't have someone to pitch to me. Or even catch me so I can practice pitching."

Contact: 815-987-1383; mtrowbridge@rrstar.com

What do you think

Does a player have the right to refuse to move up to varsity, or is he/she obligated to do what the coaches say for the good of the program?

Are there circumstances where this is OK?

And if a player refuses to move up, what is the proper punishment, if any?

[yoopers]

Sixteen-year-old Brett Russell (front center) has been kicked off the Rochelle High School sophomore baseball team, because he didn't want to play for the school's varsity team this season. Russell is with his mom Bonnie and dad Bubba.

[JJuggle]

I have never been involved in organized sports at any level. Reading this my only questions would be, what kind of money is involved, who gets it, and how is this kids' decision impeding or potentially impeding its "proper" flow?

[GILD]

i found some of the statements
But sophomore second baseman DaQuan Lockhart said: "It's the coach's decision. If he says you are ready to play at this level, that's it. That's what's good for the team."
just downright scary
they're confusing the 'team' with the coach's little 'empire'
two very different things

the varsity team or the gulag?

this is going to be an interesting discussion

[yoopers]

Originally posted by JJuggle
I have never been involved in organized sports at any level. Reading this my only questions would be, what kind of money is involved, who gets it, and how is this kids' decision impeding or potentially impeding its "proper" flow?
Money involved is more indirect I would think. Brett's potential for future baseball could be a money issue. The other one would be that of the coach's future. If a coach doesn't win, he's not going to be around long. So two indirect money issues in different directions.

Not sure what your thinking is when you say "it's" proper flow. Who's or what proper flow?

[JJuggle]

Originally posted by yoopers
Money involved is more indirect I would think. Brett's potential for future baseball could be a money issue. The other one would be that of the coach's future. If a coach doesn't win, he's not going to be around long. So two indirect money issues in different directions.

Not sure what your thinking is when you say "it's" proper flow. Who's or what proper flow? Bruce, just being cynical about the whole thing. When I put proper in quotes, I'm simply indicating my impression there is a set way the money is supposed to flow and anyone who interfers with that is an impediment.

As far as I'm concerned just as we pay lip service to "values" in this country yet flood our media with images of violence and sex as commodity, so we pay lip service to playing for the sport yet really winning is the issue. There's no money in playing for the sport.

[GILD]

those wouldn't happen to be copper coins u're being cynical about, would it?

[yoopers]

Originally posted by JJuggle
Bruce, just being cynical about the whole thing. When I put proper in quotes, I'm simply indicating my impression there is a set way the money is supposed to flow and anyone who interfers with that is an impediment.

As far as I'm concerned just as we pay lip service to "values" in this country yet flood our media with images of violence and sex as commodity, so we pay lip service to playing for the sport yet really winning is the issue. There's no money in playing for the sport.
Sorry. Mind block for a second or maybe even temporary insanity. I see what you meant now. If there are immediate money issues or perhaps some under-the-table money transactions, I don't know about them. Would be horrible if there were. Scandal city.

B

[Checkernuts]

It sounds like he should suck it up and play for Varsity to me, he clearly is dominating the JV league and should play aganst hitters who might actually be able to hit one of his pitches.

[harper]

Your recent post in the "Sith" thread was that it was just a movie, not real life. Get a grip, and so on.

This is just a game, turned into something else by someone with misdirected motives. It is happening all over. It will get worse and will become more over the top.

On the flip side of sports, the NPR story of the female participant in the Indy 500 this year and the adjustment of the race committee in the 70's to accommodate the first female participant, was very uplifting.

It takes good balance to ride a skinny downhill but you're not always looking far enough ahead to see how steep it becomes toward the end...or if there's a fifteen foot drop there.

[kristine]

I only read about half the article... so if I say anything that doesnt quite fit, just give me a swift kick.

I dont think he should be forced to play on the varsity team or risk losing plying on the team he is already on because he does not want to move up. However, I wonderif maybe the coach wanted him moved up because his playing was so much better than everyone elses on the team, and it wasnt giving the players who were actually playing at junior level a chance to succeed? I dont know, just a thought. I still dont think they should try to force a kid to do something he doesnt want to in extra curricular activities. It really should have ben an option in my opinion.

[harper]

Originally posted by kristine
I only read about half the article... so if I say anything that doesnt quite fit, just give me a swift kick.



I say we turn this into a poll on whether or not to kick kristine. Bruce should add that as one of his questions to be answered.

[TheoELind]

Give the kid a break, his parents are named Bonnie and Bubba for christ's sake.

[GILD]

Originally posted by harper
I say we turn this into a poll on whether or not to kick kristine. i'd say kick
like socrates said, originally said by socrates
The Unread Post Is Not Worth Commenting Upon

[yoopers]

Originally posted by harper
Your recent post in the "Sith" thread was that it was just a movie, not real life. Get a grip, and so on.

This is just a game, turned into something else by someone with misdirected motives. It is happening all over. It will get worse and will become more over the top.

On the flip side of sports, the NPR story of the female participant in the Indy 500 this year and the adjustment of the race committee in the 70's to accommodate the first female participant, was very uplifting.
Boy, that's another whole debate in itself; are high school sports just playtime after school or a precursor to the future. For 99% of the student population, I would say that it's play time after school. But there are the few that need to use the time to prepare for something bigger and better. In that, it becomes important.

I was one of the 1% to a certain extent. I used H.S. to prepare for playing college football, which I did, and possibly to play military base semi-pro in Europe eventually. As it turns out, my military tour was completely stateside so college was it for me. But my athletics never overshadowed my academic studies. I never had any problem keeping that in perspective, thanks to my parents and my growing up years.

On another note, we spent Memorial Day with friends up in Roscoe, IL, about a mile north of Danica's home.

Originally posted by TheoELind
Give the kid a break, his parents are named Bonnie and Bubba for christ's sake.
I know you're just kidding a bit, but Bubba and Bonnie are successful professionally and still athletically active. They're good people.

Bruce

[yoopers]

Originally posted by Checkernuts
It sounds like he should suck it up and play for Varsity to me, he clearly is dominating the JV league and should play aganst hitters who might actually be able to hit one of his pitches.
Even if he doesn't get near the playing time that he would on the JV team? If a person loves the sport, I doubt he or she would want to put themselves in a position for little playing time...

(notice the ... at the end. I'm not trying to pull either way here, I'm just giving the debate a little push)

[JJuggle]

Whatever else you might say, this is clearly an opportunity for some lawyers to make some money. :)

[GILD]

the discussion in my head is centring around three main concepts

what's best for the kid
what's best for the team, and
what's best for the coach

and who has say in/over what

i think in this case it's pretty clear-cut that the coach 'won' as this is definately not what he kid wants and we can debate about the value to the team till tomoro, bottom line is that he was definitaly making a contribution to the team he was playing for

this is scary
in the same way that it's scary that social workers can 'report' parents and charge them with neglect if they refuse to have ritalin given to their kids
what's happening when a coach can so easily over-ride not only the student, but also his parents
no, i'm not suggesting the parents run the team
this is an unusual situation tho

at the same time we'll need to trash out the role of sports at school and in the lives of people at school, students and coaches

[yoopers]

Originally posted by JJuggle
Whatever else you might say, this is clearly an opportunity for some lawyers to make some money. :)
I thought so too. But Bonnie was in our office the other day and I asked her if they were going to seek legal help. She said that at the moment, they planned not to.

[harper]

Originally posted by yoopers
Boy, that's another whole debate in itself; are high school sports just playtime after school or a precursor to the future. For 99% of the student population, I would say that it's play time after school. But there are the few that need to use the time to prepare for something bigger and better. In that, it becomes important.

I was one of the 1% to a certain extent. I used H.S. to prepare for playing college football, which I did, and possibly to play military base semi-pro in Europe eventually. As it turns out, my military tour was completely stateside so college was it for me. But my athletics never overshadowed my academic studies. I never had any problem keeping that in perspective, thanks to my parents and my growing up years.



This is a good point. I quit the varsity basketball team in 1969 because it was no longer just a game. It was all about whether you won or lost. The other team was the enemy, not the opponent. Your job was to defeat and humiliate them, not to improve yourself. Things have deteriorated since then, too.

With all of the million dollar salaries running up and down the fields and courts of the world, with all of the litigation involving athletes inside and outside the sporting arenas, with all the political graft to sustain college and professional sports in motion, this is still all about people playing games whose histories are rooted in the spoils of war and the manifestations of hatred. Weird and inconsistent perhaps, but you would hope that the dividing line could be made less blurred in both time and meaning.

My feeling is that the baseball player's story blurs that line as people react to it. My feeling is also that the female Indy driver's story helps to clarify that line.

[Checkernuts]

Originally posted by yoopers
Even if he doesn't get near the playing time that he would on the JV team? If a person loves the sport, I doubt he or she would want to put themselves in a position for little playing time...

(notice the ... at the end. I'm not trying to pull either way here, I'm just giving the debate a little push)

Yes I think he should even if he isnt playing as much in games. When you pratice with people below your skill level it really does not push a player to get better. Sometimes it is a good thing to be humbled by people that are better than you are, it helps you develop into a better player down the road.

I had many friends that played on JV and Varsity sports many sat on the bench for games. One friend comes to mind who made Varsity soccer his freshman year. He didnt play much that first season but he went on to dominate for his last 2 years then moved his Sr year as he was asked to play for the Jr National team and was on the road for most of the school year. Do you think he was happy to ride the bench for most of his freshman year? I'd say not at all, but in the long run the experence of playing with people better than him helped him to achieve his goal of now playing pro soccer for (I believe Miami)

Sometimes its ok to ride the bench.

[yoopers]

Originally posted by Checkernuts
Yes I think he should even if he isnt playing as much in games. When you pratice with people below your skill level it really does not push a player to get better. Sometimes it is a good thing to be humbled by people that are better than you are, it helps you develop into a better player down the road.

I had many friends that played on JV and Varsity sports many sat on the bench for games. One friend comes to mind who made Varsity soccer his freshman year. He didnt play much that first season but he went on to dominate for his last 2 years then moved his Sr year as he was asked to play for the Jr National team and was on the road for most of the school year. Do you think he was happy to ride the bench for most of his freshman year? I'd say not at all, but in the long run the experence of playing with people better than him helped him to achieve his goal of now playing pro soccer for (I believe Miami)

Sometimes its ok to ride the bench.
I agree with the context of your position. I tell Ben and Brad that philosophically they should be the worst players on the team. From that, they can learn from the other guy's hard work and experience. Ben is playing up a year right now and I think he is developing by leaps and bounds as a result. Both boys played up in indoor over the winter.

But on the flip side, riding the bench does not grant experience on the field, right? Perhaps. So many times, we focus on the weekly game when in fact game time is only one hour vs. maybe 12 hours of practice throughout the week. And if you're playing up, then it's 12 hours of practice with better players than you. I suppose that's more true for one game a week sports. Baseball is different I suppose with several games played per week. When Mary and I buy in to a season of club soccer for the boys, we're not just buying one hour games a week. We're also buying 10 hours of practice time with licensed, experienced coaches and time with other players of their caliber or greater.

So, back to Mr. Russell. Mike, your thoughts beg the questions, what does Mr. Russell want of his baseball experience? Does he want current playing time with the JV team because he loves the sport now, or does he want to serve the time on the bench with the varsity that might be necessary to project him to another level because he loves his game of the future?

Bruce

[yoopers]

If you're interested, there is a forum on the Rockford Registar Star website discussing this issue. Lots of interesting viewpoints.

http://cf.rrstar.com/forums/messageview.cfm?catid=20&threadid=5170

[harper]

Originally posted by yoopers
Mike, your thoughts beg the questions, what does Mr. Russell want of his baseball experience? Does he want current playing time with the JV team because he loves the sport now, or does he want to serve the time on the bench with the varsity that might be necessary to project him to another level because he loves his game of the future?


Bruce-

Please look up "begs the question" or "begging the question" in the dictionary or at least google it.

[yoopers]

Originally posted by harper
Bruce-

Please look up "begs the question" or "begging the question" in the dictionary or at least google it.
Well, I knew what I was trying to say in a "round" about way. :)

Bruce

All hail Petitio Principii

[harper]

Originally posted by yoopers


All hail Petitio Principii

And he follows with a perfectly appropriate sig line. Thanks, Bruce.

[Chrashing]

I am against the coach having so much power over these kids, but I agree with the point the checkernuts made, (I'm paraphrasing) something along the lines that if he is too good for the JV team then he should be on placed on the varsity team.

Now, I don't know what 'too good' means or even if there is such a thing in high school base ball. I don't play ball. But that would be only reason for the coach to be able to block him from playing JV ball if he turns down the varsity ball option. Coaches certainly must not be allowed to block the kid from other sports or from joining other (non-school) baseball teams.

[Jester2000]

Wow. I never thought coaches had the power to force a player to move up, or make them leave. At my high school, if you get asked to move up to varsity it definitely is an honor, just like it is everywhere else. If the player doesn't want to move up, then the coach will just let them stay where they are.

Yes, the player might improve their game by playing at a higher level. But if they want to play where they are at, with a team they know and feel really comfortable with, where they are having fun.... then they should surely be allowed to stay there!

This is a good example of how sports are taken too seriously, and too much emphasis is on them. I think Harper already kind of mentioned this in a better way.

Heh, this kind of relates to the abortion issue.... Are you

PRO-CHOICE (the player should have the right to decide if he should move up or not)

or

PRO-TEAM (Do what is best for the team dispite what the player wants ) [in this case the highest team in high school - varsity]

Later,

Jess

[harper]

Bruce-

I'll tread-jack again and suggest that you should have countered with:

"Modern usage controversy:

More recently, to beg the question has been used as a synonym for "to raise the question", or to indicate that "the question really ought to be addressed". For example, "This year's budget deficit is half a trillion dollars. This begs the question: how are we ever going to balance the budget?" This usage is often sharply criticized by proponents of the traditional meaning, but has nonetheless come into sufficiently widespread use that it is now the most common use of the term.

Arguments over whether such usage should be considered incorrect are an example of debate over linguistic prescription and description."

You should also have scolded me for cruelty. I am a sharply criticizing proponent and you are innocently applying a term in its now most widespread use.

[yoopers]

Originally posted by harper
Bruce-

I'll tread-jack again and suggest that you should have countered with:

"Modern usage controversy:

More recently, to beg the question has been used as a synonym for "to raise the question", or to indicate that "the question really ought to be addressed". For example, "This year's budget deficit is half a trillion dollars. This begs the question: how are we ever going to balance the budget?" This usage is often sharply criticized by proponents of the traditional meaning, but has nonetheless come into sufficiently widespread use that it is now the most common use of the term.

Arguments over whether such usage should be considered incorrect are an example of debate over linguistic prescription and description."

You should also have scolded me for cruelty. I am a sharply criticizing proponent and you are innocently applying a term in its now most widespread use.
Instead I want to thank you because, you know me, I like to be correct in my grammar and spelling. If it's wrong but generally accepted nowadays (is that a word?) as correct due to over use, I still want to use the word or phrase correctly.

But if it makes you feel better...

Bad, Greg. Shame, shame, shame.

Will that do?

Just one question. When you tread-jack, are you elevating my stairs?

Sorry, just had to. :) You'll have to nail me next time I make a spelling error, and after reviewing some of my posts, I make a lot of them.

[harper]

Originally posted by yoopers

Just one question. When you tread-jack, are you elevating my stairs?



No. I'm stealing your tires. Good catch and right back onto the baseball topic.

[john_childs]

Here's a story from today's Seattle Times

Prep notes: Meadowdale's Blair quits over parents

By Michael Ko
Seattle Times staff reporter

Karen Blair, who built Meadowdale High School in Lynnwood into one of the state's premier girls basketball programs, has retired, in large part because of the emotional wear-and-tear of dealing with two sets of parents.

Blair, 40, wouldn't be more specific, but said last night she also felt she didn't receive enough support from her administration or the Edmonds School District.

Edmonds School District athletic director Terri McMahan said she's "disappointed that Karen would see it that way." McMahan said the parents expressed some concerns, which were investigated by the district and found "petty" and "groundless."

"This isn't the district against Karen. These are the kind of parents that make a chill go up your spine," McMahan said. "It's disappointing that these type of people have won out."

Blair, an industrial engineer at Boeing, graduated from Meadowdale in 1983. She began coaching at her alma mater as an assistant in the mid-1980s and took over as head coach in 1994.

As head coach, she compiled a 255-39 overall record and won two state championships. In WesCo games, her teams were 164-9.

Under Blair, the Mavericks have appeared in the last 10 state tournaments, winning Class 3A championships in 2000 and 2004.

Meadowdale moved up to Class 4A last season and was 22-0 before losing its last three games. .

More than 20 of Blair's players have played or are playing college ball.

"Obviously, when I first came to Meadowdale, it wasn't what it is now. I feel like I left it a better place," Blair said. "Our players played with great sportsmanship and played the game the right way. To me, that was what it was all about."

Blair attributes her success to an eye for detail and high expectations.

"We carried over those expectations onto our players," she said, "and I was fortunate to have kids who stepped up to accept those challenges."

The job will be posted by the end of the week, McMahan said.

Blair's teams were always good representatives, McMahan said. "I always knew they were going to be focused and well-behaved and represent themselves on the court well," she said.

[munipsycho]

Kids and kids play are over-organized from the age of 3. We have soccer leagues and t-ball leagues, then baseball and basketball leagues. Then in school, every sport is organized from the early grades on. I wish I could claim I was true to my values, but my kids do this too. I have a 5 year old son who just finished his 3rd season of soccer. My 7 year old daughter has been in gymnastics for about 11 years it seems. Is there even a sandlot available any more? Where could I go to find a pickup game of hoops?

I'm trying to figure out how the differences that I see between the way I played games as a kid 35 years ago and the way my kids play them are derivative of other differences in society. Our work habits have changed; our social geography has changed; urban and suburban developments - now downtown is dead, now suburban malls thrive; population migration patterns have shifted dramatically; corporations manage the executive and legislative branches of our government; the list goes on and on.

I think we over organize our kids lives because we're afraid of the alternatives. We're afraid of the cities swallowing our kids; and we're afraid of being under attentive. Like detente: Trust but verify. The structure of organized sports gives us solace, provides us with something stable and concrete - something we can believe is safe.

I think this kid is a victim in a way. He got a raw deal. If they'd given him what he wanted, they'd probably have treated him like crap for the next 3 years anyway. I'm sure his pain is real.

But maybe in another way he has inadvertantly become a beneficiary of the system's inflexibility simply by being ejected from it. Maybe now he can get in a sandlot game where kids are left alone to learn to organize themselves. Leaving them alone to learn to organize themselves is really the best thing we can do for them anyway.

At least one can hope...

Bruce, tell him and his parents good luck.

[JJuggle]

Originally posted by munipsycho
Kids and kids play are over-organized from the age of 3. .......Maybe now he can get in a sandlot game where kids are left alone to learn to organize themselves. Leaving them alone to learn to organize themselves is really the best thing we can do for them anyway.In a way this post segues nicely into what these fora are all about. Unicycling. An activity that is challenging and largely unorganized, leaving its participants to create their own form of organization. Or to thrive in anarchy if they prefer.

[bugman]

My post won't be as eloquent as Munipsycho's...

The coach is and egotistical ass. Didn't get his way, so the kid and his teammates get punished. Varsity is an honor for most kids, but I can see why this kid wanted to stay down. I can't believe there was no room for compromise in this situation. For that alone this coach is an ass. Was anyones interest served by his decision? One more reason to go private school. I hate the idea of paying twice for education, but these absurd anecdotes are far too frequent.

[yoopers]

Way back at the beginning, I promised some insight into the coaches, athletic director, and others.

As I mentioned, Rochelle is that typical small American farming community town of about 9500 people situated in the northern middle part of the state far removed from Chicago and the 'burbs. During football season, nothing else exists on Friday night except the Hubs football game over at the field. You can hear the loudspeaker from the field all over town and many radios in the town are tuned to the local station to pick up the game. The next morning, the sports page of the newspaper has football coverage as far as the eye can see. Typical American small town.

Kevin Crandall is the head football coach and is also the athletic director. Doug Creason is the high school superintendent. Mr. Crandall is the winningest football coach in the history of the school and has taken the Hubs to the Conference championship and beyond most of his years here. You may be able to see where I'm going with this. There is a lot of power brewing in his office.

Several years ago, a teacher/girls track coach was fired for allowing his cross country girls to run on the football field. Not allowed to touch that precious parcel of land, you see. Can you imagine?

Creason and Crandall hate soccer. Soccer takes good athletes away from their football program. A handful of years ago, Rochelle had a pitiful soccer team run by a non-disciplinarian coach and a handful of individual (not team) players. About four years ago, Marianne Swanson, a high school guidance counselor and mother of two soccer players, decided to take over the program. Marianne didn't know soccer from beans but simply had the desire. So she went to Creason and Crandall to request the means necessary to build the soccer program for the school. She was told "no" many times but Marianne was persistant. So finally, Creason told her that if she could raise $10,000 in the four months before the next season, she could give the program a shot. He figured that raising the money was an impossible task. What he didn't count on was Marianne, who by the way was just voted this year's Community Leader by our citizens for much more than just the soccer program. Marianne told me it was a very proud moment to walk into Creson's office and slap that check down on his desk. So over the next four years, Mariane went to work and took the team to Conference Champion in the last three. Ben not only got a varsity letter last fall but was honored to be part of a conference championship team. He got a patch to sew on his school letter jacket.

Marianne has since resigned as the soccer coach but has a replacement, Mr. Javier Zepeda. I have been asked by Mr. Zepeda to be a volunteer assistant coach for this fall's program, something I consider an honor and can't wait to do.

A couple of the kids in our unicycle club were part of the Hubs football program. They told me that Mr. Crandall has made some very disparaging remarks during practice about soccer players in comparison to football players.

There is talk around town about wanting Mr. Crandall to be let go because his power and power hunger is getting out of control. In spite of his winning record, it might be for the best to even out some rough edges and bring some things back into perspective. Maybe that's a good thing.

I'll put in a disclaimer here. These are my thoughts from the perspective of where I stand in the community. I am not part of the inner sanctum of the superintendent and athletic director so I don't know what all goes into the decisions that are made. Because I've been around this earth for awhile, I've long since come to fact that my little perspective is not the whole picture. There are always many sides to every story and even when I think I understand and maybe disagree with an issue or a decision made, there are other factors that are not in my vision. So most times, it seems that the only course I have to trust in the decisions and actions of those who are really in the know. I know that's not always the best thing but sometimes its the only thing I have left.

Either way, we'll go with the flow and be thankful for people like Marianne and others who have sacrificed so much so that Ben and Brad can play soccer for a good program at their high school. High school is only a very brief time in their lives and we know that there is life beyond these four years. But for now, it's what's on our plate and we're enjoying it!

Bruce

[johnfoss]

I read through this whole long thread, with my eyes open for the "why." In a situation where you don't have clear policies on how things are supposed to run, you need good "whys."

As for why did the boy want to stay in JV, it seems the main reasons were both relatively selfish ones; to stay with his friends and to play more and be benched less. These are both understandable, but if the school's teams are looked at as a unit, he's not benefitting the overall baseball team by holding back. See my edit below for more on this.

If, on the other hand, his reason to want to stay at JV level was because he was worried about *too much* time playing baseball interfering with his academic studies, that would be a different situation entirely.

So my conclusion on the "why" of the player is that it was more for personal reasons than for noble ones.

Now on to the coach's why. According to the article, the school's policy is "you can't say no to any Hubs' coach." If this is a written policy, than he doesn't need a why. Period. If something needs to change, it's the policy itself, which comes from above the coach.

Also missing from what I read was a little more detail. If he refused the promotion, was he then told he would not be able to play at all? Or was he just told "You're out!" That would be awfully lame. He should at least have had a choice of not playing, or moving over to varsity. I don't know if he was offered that choice.

But based on the school's supposed policy, the coach was acting within his boundaries. Also, I might add within what would seem to be boundaries that still include an educational approach to building successful sports teams.

Part of the team sports educational process is playing with teams that may not include your friends, as well as playing less on a harder team than playing more on a lesser one.

One must also consider the difficult position a coach appears to be in. If their job is based on winning, how can they not make it a priority in everything else they do? For them, winning defines success.

Of course you can focus on winning without maing it your ultimate goal, but this has not necessarily been brought up as an element of the current debate.

So I guess my decision on this whole thing is whether or not the school's policies on team sports are written or well known, or if this is more of an arbitrary thing. Also, would the school take him back for the varsity team if he wanted back in? If not, one has to question the coach's motives.

This all applies to the legal question as well. If the school has written policies to this effect, there is likely no legal recourse for the parents, even if they wanted to pursue one.


EDIT:
If the player in question is more interested in recreational (not-so-serious) baseball, a town league would seem the logical alternative. The fact that he was told by the coaches he would be "not welcome" there either, makes one wonder what part of the story we haven't been told. What did he do to annoy the coaching staff? Simply turning down the offer to move up to varsity is clearly not enough, there had to be more to it.

[yoopers]

Originally posted by johnfoss
As for why ... to stay with his friends and to play more and be benched less. These are both understandable
I believe this is the case and I agree, it is understandable. Is it selfishness though, wanting others not to have what you have, or self-serving, wanting for yourself. I would have to vote for self-serving.
but if the school's teams are looked at as a unit, he's not benefitting the overall baseball team
That should be the idea and both coaches and players should recognize this. But we've seen inconsistencies. The vice-principal is also the football line coach and the wrestling coach. At the end of the wrestling season, all accolades were given to the varsity squad including appearances in the end-of-season memory video. JV had no part. When I questioned the coach and tried to insert that the JV squad was a part of the overall team as well, he explained that they focus on the varsity because that's where the conference points are gained.

Also, there is a Hubs Sports website. During the season, the staff picks a wrestler of the week. In a week when the varsity did not have a match, the JV squad attended a Frosh/Soph tournament with twelve teams. Three freshmen won tourney champ in their weight class. When I suggested that because these three freshmen faced great odds and came out on top, they should be considered as wrestlers of the week, I was told that the wrestler of the week is a varsity incentive.

If this is a written policy, than he doesn't need a why.
I don't know for sure but I don't believe that it is a written policy. In my opinion only, it was an on-the-spot decision by a power-hungry athletic director. This is our first year in high school sports and Ben participated in both soccer and wrestling. We have never been issued such a directive.


Also missing from what I read was a little more detail. If he refused the promotion, was he then told he would not be able to play at all?

EDIT:
If the player in question is more interested in recreational (not-so-serious) baseball, a town league would seem the logical alternative. The fact that he was told by the coaches he would be "not welcome" there either, makes one wonder what part of the story we haven't been told. What did he do to annoy the coaching staff? Simply turning down the offer to move up to varsity is clearly not enough, there had to be more to it.
There are always two sides to every story and I'm sure we don't have all the details. Good questions, John. The summer league mentioned is somehow connected with the high school, I'm not sure exactly how. There is park district ball I believe in which the high school has no say.

[BillyTheMountain]

Originally posted by yoopers
Money involved is more indirect I would think. Brett's potential for future baseball could be a money issue. The other one would be that of the coach's future. If a coach doesn't win, he's not going to be around long. So two indirect money issues in different directions.

Not sure what your thinking is when you say "it's" proper flow. Who's or what proper flow?

Should students have the right to promote to the next grade or refuse to promote if they don't want to?

I wuld hav likd to staa in 10th grade a fuw mor yers to mastr spelng, but they made me go on.

With Bush's NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND, all the kids who make the national reading scores look bad for politicians do not get to enter 4th grade (or 8th grade). I guess that's a money issue too.

maybe students shouldn't have any rights.

Billy

is that rite????