The Paranoia Poll

[JJuggle]

E-Z Pass is an electronic toll payment system here in New Jersey, New York, and perhaps some other nearby states. Other systems are in effect.

My wife and I refuse to participate choosing to wait instead on the cash toll lines. I've seen enough cop shows where E-Z Pass is used to determine the whereabouts of suspects, heard rumors, apocryphal or not, of speeding tickets being issued for getting from one E-Z Pass toll to another too quickly, and had enough of my privacy invaded, to want nothing to do with these systems.

Others?

EDIT: Damn, I forgot to click the poll box. :( :( Just discuss. :)

[yoopers]

Illinois I-Pass is the greatest thing! I don't like to wait especially while driving. I can zip right through in the I-Pass lanes and not have to wait, paw through coins trying to find the right change, or even worry about having money with me. When my I-Pass account gets low on funds, they automatically renew my credit by $40 and charge my credit card. And I really don't care if someone knows that I have just gone through an I-Pass station, I've got nothing to hide. As far as getting a speeding ticket for average speeds too high between stations, it doesn't seem to happen here. I have heard of it happening on the I-80 tollway across Ohio.

The thing that floors me is that the Illinois Tollway was supposed to be disbanded years ago when the roadways were paid for. But why would the state get rid of such a great money-making venture? Not only that, they just doubled the tolls in Illinois for cash only use (non-I-Pass holders). What a scam. Really putting a hurtin' on the transportation industry.

Bruce

[bombsquad]

Why be paranoid about EZ-Pass when your cell phone could just as easily be used to find out everything you do...

[DigitalDave]

Originally posted by yoopers
Illinois I-Pass is the greatest thing! I don't like to wait especially while driving. I can zip right through in the I-Pass lanes and not have to wait, paw through coins trying to find the right change, or even worry about having money with me. When my I-Pass account gets low on funds, they automatically renew my credit by $40 and charge my credit card. And I really don't care if someone knows that I have just gone through an I-Pass station, I've got nothing to hide. As far as getting a speeding ticket for average speeds too high between stations, it doesn't seem to happen here. I have heard of it happening on the I-80 tollway across Ohio.

The thing that floors me is that the Illinois Tollway was supposed to be disbanded years ago when the roadways were paid for. But why would the state get rid of such a great money-making venture? Not only that, they just doubled the tolls in Illinois for cash only use (non-I-Pass holders). What a scam. Really putting a hurtin' on the transportation industry.

Bruce



On my way out to visit you, I got 'jammed' in the IPASS lane by accident... Now that they trippled the fare to the 'cash only' users.

I find this tactic replusive.
Not everyone has a 'checking account', and tripple charging users for using cash is 'highway robbery'.
Esp, since my IPASS unit had a old battery and it didn't work.

Anyway,,, the IPASS lane was backed up for miles.... flowing over and taking 2 lanes of the highway... I finally was able to merge to the innermost lane to drop my coinage.

You should have seen the look on my face (and what I blurted) when I realized the backup was due to the 'express IPASS' lane.


And, as for the 'information age'...... Did you know the Illinios Tollway Authority shares housing with the Illinios Highway Patrol ...? When they set up the IPASS there was an 'agreement' not to use the 'math' in issuing tickets. But, that doesn't mean they don't 'know' your driving habits.

[JJuggle]

Originally posted by bombsquad
Why be paranoid about EZ-Pass when your cell phone could just as easily be used to find out everything you do... A darn good point. I'm taking my banjo, a uni and the family and heading for the hills.

[johnfoss]

I was recently in Florida, where my dad's E-pass was extremely handy in not having to stop to pay any tolls.

I grew up in Michigan where, not surprisingly, there are no toll roads. California doesn't have them either, except maybe one or two down in LA. When I lived in New York I paid plenty of bridge and tunnel tolls. Highway robbery. Literally. Do you have any idea the percentage of that cost that goes to pay for their ridiculous, archaic system of collecting your money while slowing traffic?

Originally posted by DigitalDave
Not everyone has a 'checking account', and tripple charging users for using cash is 'highway robbery'. Actually it's probably about equal with the costs. Toll collection is very expensive. All those people standing in those booths, collecting salary and benefits, add up. Plus the rest of the system to run and maintain it all. An electronic system should be much more efficient, and cost less. Lucky for your state the cost savings are passed on to drivers.

Esp, since my IPASS unit had a old battery and it didn't work. That sucks. In the states I've seen, the "unit" is a sticker with a bar code on it. all the electricity and billing power is on the other end.

I don't mind paying a toll to use a road, as long as the money I'm paying is used to pay for that road. Not for a subway that I don't ride, or for an inefficient toll-collection process, and especially not to be mixed in with other, non road-related projects.

[Jethro]

My doctor said I was paranoid. Well, he didn't actually say it, but I could tell he was thinking it.

Anyway, we don't have anything as sophisticated as an EZ pass (or even a toll road) here in Minnesota. But whenever I have the pleasure of driving through Chicago, I am always envious of those people who can speed on through the EZ Pass lane. If I were on a toll road on a daily basis, I would most likely get one and live at the mercy of Big Brother.

[DigitalDave]

Actually ... I forgot to mention this ...

Our tollroad near Ohare was supposed to be 'paid in full' years ago. The 'theory' was ... that the tolls would pay for the road, and then no more tolls.

Funny how that never happened .....

[tomblackwood]

In Singapore all cars are required to be sold with an onboard chip or transmitter which registers automatically on toll roads. There are no toll booths...each registered driver has an account which gets billed automatically for how many "hits" the chip makes on the highway detectors.

The same system calculates speed. They don't bother with speed traps. If you speed on the highway, They know it. A ticket and fine arrive automatically in the mail.

So I guess my point, JJuggle, is it could be worse. That said, I applaud your resistance to the change.

[jagur]

Originally posted by DigitalDave
Actually ...Our tollroad near Ohare was supposed to be 'paid in full' years ago. The 'theory' was ... that the tolls would pay for the road, and then no more tolls.

Funny how that never happened ..... yep, we got a few of those scams in the NW too.

hey, did you know that your phone bill supports the military and even the Spanish american war that was paid for 5 times over by now?

http://www.nwtrcc.org/phonetax.htm


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/11/26/eveningnews/main657874.shtml

[yoopers]

Originally posted by johnfoss
An electronic system should be much more efficient, and cost less. Lucky for your state the cost savings are passed on to drivers.

That's a tough one to verify, John. As Dave and I have both mentioned, the local Illinois tollway system was supposed to have been abandoned years ago when the road were paid for. Then I road maintenance would have beem paid for through taxes like other states do.

It's true that an electronic system is more efficient to both the Illinois Tollway Authority and to the drivers. I'm sure it saves the ITA many dollars in the same way electronic checking saves a bank time and money. But I'm not otherwise seeing the cost savings passed on to the drivers.

An I-Pass transponder is basically free (with a $10 deposit). After the recent toll hike, tolls when using the transponder stayed the same (40 cents stayed 40 cents) but tolls for those paying cash, i.e., our out of state guests, went from 40 cents to 80 cents. Tolls in the Chicago-land area for four-tired vehicles range from 40 cents to 95 cents and now the tolls for our guests are 80 cents to $1.90. Tolls for cars with trailers and of course semi-trucks are much higher. Like I said before, it's a killer for some of our transportation companies that use the tollways on a regular basis.

Bruce

[gerblefranklin]

John, there are tons of toll roads in the Bay Area. GGB is a tool bridge, as is the bay bridge, san mateo, and others.

My sentiments (and my parents') reflect those of bombsquad's. If they wanted to know where I was going, they don't need fastrak or e-zpass to do it. In the Bay Area, all the stupid, blind, paranoid liberals have prevented e-z-pazz (fastrak here) from catching on. The bay bridge, with a 15-25 lane toll plaza, has ONE fastrak lane. I say the colution is to make the toll a sum such as $4.57, that way people will get tired of getting the right change, and will switch over.

[bombsquad]

Originally posted by tomblackwood
The same system calculates speed. They don't bother with speed traps. If you speed on the highway, They know it. A ticket and fine arrive automatically in the mail.

So I guess my point, JJuggle, is it could be worse. That said, I applaud your resistance to the change.


I know in Abu Dhabi, they have cameras attached to bridges and light poles that automatically take your picture when you are speeding. Couple weeks later, hello mr. speeding ticket...


edit - i cant spell

[Dave Lowell]

Originally posted by bombsquad
Why be paranoid about EZ-Pass when your cell phone could just as easily be used to find out everything you do... I'm almost paranoid enough not to "vote" in this "poll".

To answer the above question...

It's the difference between "is" and "could".

The government IS tracking the movements of its citizens via EZ-PASS. People sign up to voluntarily give them this data. The government COULD perhaps, via their cell phones, track the movements of certain individuals who are under investigation (or whatever). I have no evidence they are doing this en masse.

Regarding the EZ-PASS data... What will that data be used for? What will it be used for in the future? How long will the data be kept? Who may access the data?

Now, I'm far too privacy-conscious to have even looked into getting EZ-PASS, so perhaps they've answered these questions. But I wouldn't put it past the government to change the rules some time in the future.

What if you are simply in the wrong place at the wrong time? Then "Lucy, you've got some 'splainin to do..." Perhaps a white Impala was seen speeding away from a crime scene at 3:05 AM on March 15th. There is a highway exit with EZ-PASS just one mile away. Only a handful of cars exited the highway at that hour and... scenario one... Dave has EZ-PASS... Dave, an innocent person who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, gets a visit from the police the next day (being the only white Impala of record to pass through the area around that time). They ask all sorts of questions about his late-night trip. They want to hear his "alibi". Worst of all, Dave's wife now wants to know what Dave was doing in that area when he was supposed to be out of town on a business trip. See, Dave is cheating on his wife. Now the whole ugly story comes out, courtesy of the United States government (This is a fictional account. While Dave does drive a white Impala, he is not married nor would he ever cheat on his wife). And now scenario two... Dave pays with good-old cash and never gets that knock on his door.

I try to minimize the data that is collected about me. I pay cash whenever possible and never use "loyalty cards", even if it means passing up discounts. Imagine a day when you have to pay extra for health insurance because, according to supermarket records (which are now part of the national database of citizen information), you buy too much junk food. Also, records show that you are a heavy smoker and that you live alone, have no pets, and rarely entertain guests (a lot can be gleaned from what you buy and what you DON'T buy at the supermarket). In fact, you fit a disturbing profile and will be stopped for questioning before boarding an airplane. Hey, a little off-topic (actually, the topic is the tip of an iceberg), but it could happen. Thank God for the ACLU.

Edit: no, I don't fit ANY of the scenarios that I've painted in this post.

[john_childs]

Originally posted by Dave Lowell
I try to minimize the data that is collected about me. I pay cash whenever possible and never use "loyalty cards", even if it means passing up discounts. Imagine a day when you have to pay extra for health insurance because, according to supermarket records (which are now part of the national database of citizen information), you buy too much junk food. Also, records show that you are a heavy smoker and that you live alone, have no pets, and rarely entertain guests (a lot can be gleaned from what you buy and what you DON'T buy at the supermarket). In fact, you fit a disturbing profile and will be stopped for questioning before boarding an airplane. Hey, a little off-topic (actually, the topic is the tip of an iceberg), but it could happen. Thank God for the ACLU.
It is good to be paranoid about data collection. Here's a story about a Seattle area firefighter who was the main suspect in an arson at his home. One of the big pieces of evidence against him was that he had purchased a fire starter (one of those long necked lighters useful for lighting fires in a fireplace) using his Safeway Club Card. He was the main suspect for 5 months until someone else confessed. Here's a summary of the story: Security Risks of Frequent-Shopper Cards (http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2005/02/security_risks.html).

Government with access to databases about what you've done, where you've been, what you've bought, and other details leads to situations like what happened to the innocent firefighter.

[BraveSirStupid]

I am very unhappy with the non-anonymous nature of EZ and I PASSes. There is no simply necessary logical requirement to associate a VIN/DLN/SSN/LPN to a specific transponder. They don't do it [id-tracking] with coins. QED.

Everything you could ever want to know about this has been written about in The Risks Digest (http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks).
I cannot recommend the Risks Digest highly enough. It should be required reading. For Everyone.

I happen, however, to believe there's effectively nothing we can do to get rid or prevent the expansion of these types of systems. Equally fatalistically, i believe that if the system can be abused, it will be, in every way possible, eventually.

It does beat the heck out of being stuck in line at a toll booth (and now, here, all lanes are IPASS-enabled).

It also improves driver safety by reducing the "fumbling around for change" people. A couple of years ago, i watched a jumbo Dodge van traveling ~50 rear end a saturn wagon stopped at a toll booth at the Oakbrook toll plaza. NOT nice.

Me? Hate it, but have an IPASS transponder which i "recharge" at the grocery store instead of letting the state access my checking account. I suspect there's not a lot of daylight between Yoopers and Digital Dave and me.

[JJuggle]

Originally posted by Dave Lowell
I try to minimize the data that is collected about me. I pay cash whenever possible and never use "loyalty cards", even if it means passing up discounts. Imagine a day when you have to pay extra for health insurance because, according to supermarket records (which are now part of the national database of citizen information), you buy too much junk food. Also, records show that you are a heavy smoker and that you live alone, have no pets, and rarely entertain guests (a lot can be gleaned from what you buy and what you DON'T buy at the supermarket). In fact, you fit a disturbing profile and will be stopped for questioning before boarding an airplane. Hey, a little off-topic (actually, the topic is the tip of an iceberg), but it could happen. Thank God for the ACLU.

Edit: no, I don't fit ANY of the scenarios that I've painted in this post. Remember this one (http://www.unicyclist.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=34005&highlight=aclu), Dave? ;)

[yoopers]

Originally posted by john_childs
It is good to be paranoid about data collection.
I disagree, John, but only for my own life. Paranoia borders on a sickness or maybe even is one, I'm not sure. But I would rather have control of my life and my decisions instead of something off-normal have its influence. Instead I tend to be very cautious and wary. Take Internet scams for instance http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ttpcworld/20050310/tc_techtues_pcworld/119941&cid=1740&ncid=1729 I never, ever participate in these things. Quick money schemes are a quick downfall.

I am extremely wary and suspicious about anything too good to be true. I only hope when I reach my elderly years (no Steve K., I'm not there yet) that I will still have the presence of mind to maintain my cautiousness.

As I previously said, I have nothing to hide and have no problem using technology to improve the quality of my life. I see a lot of "what if's" in the previous posts and I learned long ago that concentrating on a what-if puts stumbling blocks in my life. So I keep them in view on the horizon unless something jumps out at me with a little more realism than normal.

Originally posted by BraveSirStupid
...which i "recharge" at the grocery store instead of letting the state access my checking account.
Actually, I have my credit card charged to renew my I-Pass account. But I do have many of my bills automatically taken out of my checking account, i.e., utility bills, mortgage payment, etc. Makes it much less time consuming. Then I balance my accounts at the proper time and pay close attention to details. I quickly review all my bills everytime, my phone bill, credit card statements, etc. to see if something seems out of line.

Just this past summer, I noticed two separate approximately $500 purchases of travel vouchers on my credit card statement purchased in Salt Lake City. (It did not coincide with NAUCC as far as I know) I've never been to SLC so we immediately reported the incident. The credit card company with my agreement immediately cancelled my credit card number and issued me a new one. They took the incident under investigation (which I believe is on-going today) and took the charges off my account.

Life is good!
Bruce

[harper]

Originally posted by JJuggle

My wife and I refuse to participate choosing to wait instead on the cash toll lines.

Raphael-

I'm proud of you for stepping out of the US government's "We need to know everything about you for your own protection" program. You are inconveniencing yourself to do the right thing.

As a "bad" libertarian, I don't always follow the righteous path you've chosen. I battled with myself many years ago over whether or not to get social security cards for my children so I could claim them as tax exemptions. I'm ashamed of my decision to do so which was based on greed, not principle. I allowed myself to be fingerprinted for a security clearance to work at a national laboratory. I allowed myself to be fingerprinted to obtain a concealed pistol permit in the state of Washington. The list of backsliding for my greed or convenience goes on and on.

Thanks for taking this small step toward universal freedom. Thanks for putting your principles before your personal convenience.

[JJuggle]

Originally posted by harper
Thanks for taking this small step toward universal freedom. Thanks for putting your principles before your personal convenience. Well, you're welcome. But as you can imagine I'm wildly inconsistent myself.

[bugman]

Originally posted by harper
Raphael-

I'm proud of you for stepping out of the US government's "We need to know everything about you for your own protection" program. You are inconveniencing yourself to do the right thing.

As a "bad" libertarian, I don't always follow the righteous path you've chosen. I battled with myself many years ago over whether or not to get social security cards for my children so I could claim them as tax exemptions. I'm ashamed of my decision to do so which was based on greed, not principle. I allowed myself to be fingerprinted for a security clearance to work at a national laboratory. I allowed myself to be fingerprinted to obtain a concealed pistol permit in the state of Washington. The list of backsliding for my greed or convenience goes on and on.

Thanks for taking this small step toward universal freedom. Thanks for putting your principles before your personal convenience.

Preference vs Conviction

I'm with you, what I would like to do and what I do are often in conflict. Too much to think about, it makes my brain hurt.

[zod]

Originally posted by JJuggle
A darn good point. I'm taking my banjo, a uni and the family and heading for the hills.

Head up to them Catskills and hide. My uncle used to live in Roscoe NY.........seems like a real good place to go if you want to disappear from society.

[JJuggle]

Originally posted by zod
Head up to them Catskills and hide. My uncle used to live in Roscoe NY.........seems like a real good place to go if you want to disappear from society. When I was a kid we used to vacation in a place called Bovina Center, NY. We always ate at the Roscoe Diner on the way up somewhere off Rte 17.

[DigitalDave]

Originally posted by BraveSirStupid
but have an IPASS transponder which i "recharge" at the grocery store instead of letting the state access my checking account.

If I knew you could do that !
I need to see where I can do that here ...
Since, those creeps still have money of mine that I can't use, cuz, my battery is dead. (and I don't commute anymore)
But, they would still have my checking account number in 'history'.

What about this ...?

I WOULD NEVER GIVE MY CHECKING ACCOUNT NUMBER TO THE IRS FOR THE YEAR END TAXES.

I'm sure some agency already has enough info on me already.

Do you think the goverment is secure with data ...? If you think 'yes' ... think again...
(I used to 'work' for the government)

[zod]

Originally posted by JJuggle
When I was a kid we used to vacation in a place called Bovina Center, NY. We always ate at the Roscoe Diner on the way up somewhere off Rte 17.

This is right near there....... I don't know if monks are allowed to unicycle though

http://www.daibosatsu.org/

[johnfoss]

I am fortunate that I don't have any toll roads or bridges close enough for me to need an EZ Pass. But if I had to use one to commute I would. I think if you dug deep enough, you would find out that the system primarily exists *not* for Big Brother to watch you, but to streamline the toll-paying process and save people tons of time. The other stuff just goes along with it.

As we become more and more wired (or wireless) and connected in the coming years, the ability to be tracked will get easier and easier for people with access to the data. So far, I'm trying to think of a reason why I care if somebody knows where I've been. The only times I'm likely to get in trouble is if I'm on errands that are intended as a *surprise* to my spouse. If I'm having an affair, do I deserve to be protected?

I can't feel bad for the Seattle firefighter with the fire-starter. The fact that he bought one of those is not sufficient "evidence" to make him a suspect in an arson. There must have been more to it. Knowing that one man bought one of those does not tell you that others did not.

I used to wait in toll lines all the time when I worked for the National Circus Project and went to schools across all sorts of bridges and toll roads. Ecch. Though tolls are good in that they only charge the users of the roads or bridges, they are bad in that they are an inefficient, time-wasting and *expensive* way to pay for the stuff.

There used to be a toll bridge to Long Beach, NY, with like a $.10 or $.15 toll. I think they finally did away with it because the toll-collection process was barely paying for itself, let-alone helping with bridge maintenance. I guess that price stayed low because it was written into a law for that bridge somewhere.

But the big bridges and tunnels in NYC, for example, subsidize the subways. I don't ride the subways. Why should I finance subways when I drive my car across a bridge? Because I don't have a choice. I *have* to cross the bridge to get where I'm going. But no subway crosses the Throgs Neck Bridge, for example, and to work in a different school every week, with a carload of equipment, it's impossible to use any form of mass-transit.

Though NYC's bridge and tunnel tolls help pay for the maintenance of those structures (and the subways), a big percentage of the money collected goes to pay the toll collectors and to run the system. And what of the cost of gas for 50,000 cars that have to wait 15 minutes each day to get through the toll booths? And the air?

Yup, I'll take the EZ Pass if I have to. But if any of us ever has a choice, don't forget to vote *NO* on any form of toll-based roadway. Once the toll is in place, it's very hard to make it go away!

[johnfoss]

Oops.

Don't you hate when you press Quote instead of Edit?

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[JJuggle]

Originally posted by johnfoss
If I'm having an affair, do I deserve to be protected?Interesting question. I'm not prepared to state unequivocally that you should be, but off hand I can not think of any reason why you shouldn't be. I think what I'm saying is that most of us to one degree or another have secrets in our lives. They may be things that are harmless or things that we are not particularly proud of but that help us survive and endure the stresses of life. Assuming these things are not criminal in nature, what happens if we are so tracked that even these activities are denied us?

[Dave Lowell]

Originally posted by johnfoss
the system primarily exists *not* for Big Brother to watch you, but to streamline the toll-paying process and save people tons of time. The other stuff just goes along with it.
Perhaps it is time to stop using the words paranoid and paranoia. How about healthy caution and skepticism? Of course the EZ-PASS system exists to streamline the toll paying process and save everyone time! Only a truly paranoid conspiracy theorist would think that the system is in place to bolster Big Brother's watchful eye. And it saves money, too. By reducing the toll-paying overhead, perhaps they can avoid increasing the tolls. If so, then thank you EZ-PASS users! Everybody! Sign up! Use EZ-PASS!
Originally posted by johnfoss
So far, I'm trying to think of a reason why I care if somebody knows where I've been. The only times I'm likely to get in trouble is if I'm on errands that are intended as a *surprise* to my spouse. If I'm having an affair, do I deserve to be protected?
Well, if you were having an affair, wouldn't that be a HUGE surprise to your wife? :) And no, you wouldn't deserve to be protected. It was a silly "plot twist" to my hypothetical example. But in the back of my mind, I was probably thinking what Raphael said in his wonderful response. About harmless little things that are simply none of anyone's business. And to those who say "I have nothing to hide" -- is your life an open book for all to peruse? "Secrets" and "hiding" are not the same thing as "privacy". Maybe, John, you don't have a reason today to care about the issue of EZ-PASS records, but that may not be the case in the future. And now that you've (hypothetically) been asked to explain those weekly trips to fill_in_the_blank, will you happily reveal that those trips are for counseling (anger management, AA, abuse recovery, etc.)? Or maybe it's a medical problem you wish not to be known.
Originally posted by johnfoss
I can't feel bad for the Seattle firefighter with the fire-starter. The fact that he bought one of those is not sufficient "evidence" to make him a suspect in an arson. There must have been more to it. Knowing that one man bought one of those does not tell you that others did not.
Interesting point. You could be right; there is much about the case that we don't know (but you do realize that it was his house that was set ablaze by that very same kind of fire-starter?). Maybe he and his wife are going through a bitter divorce and he has "threatened" to burn the house down if his wife gets it (an empty, however foolish, threat). And combined with some clever sleuthing which turned up the data about his "interesting" purchase, you have a prime suspect. But the point (in all these cases) is that data can paint a picture that is not true. Without the data, you have no picture.

In the episode of Kung Fu that I watched tonight (as opposed to last night's episode (http://www.unicyclist.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=287968#post287968)), three students in the Shaolin Temple were asked to witness an event and then later describe what they saw. They each told a different story. Data can work the same way (the data is correct -- most of the time -- but it is the interpretation of the data that is, um, open to interpretation). It can lead to suspicion, which leads to being watched or investigated, which can lead to a further violation of one's privacy (and a stressful situation where you are hoping that the truth comes out, in spite of how things must look to others). Remember when Alf thought he saw Mr. Ochmonek bury Mrs. Ochmonek in the back yard?

[Dave Lowell]

Originally posted by JJuggle
Remember this one (http://www.unicyclist.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=34005&highlight=aclu), Dave? ;) Thanks for that link. No, I missed that one. I wasn't reading the forums for a while (between when I lost interest as uni57 and when I later came back as me). I have seen the ACLU thing that it links to, however. I'll have to find time to read that thread soon, so that I don't rehash too much of what was previously discussed. Thanks.

[bombsquad]

Originally posted by zod
Head up to them Catskills and hide. My uncle used to live in Roscoe NY.........seems like a real good place to go if you want to disappear from society.

I use to go fishing up in Roscoe when I was living in new york, before the military of course. One hell of a fishing spot up there though...

[BillyTheMountain]

Originally posted by bugman
Preference vs Conviction

I'm with you, what I would like to do and what I do are often in conflict. Too much to think about, it makes my brain hurt.

Bugman,

That's not what makes your brain hurt. It's the laser beams the government is shooting into your head from helicopters. I use EZ pass because you'll notice it gets worse when stopped for a long time, like at toll booths.

They already have chips installed in JJuggle and some of the others posting here, so they may as well use EZPass....

Billy

[JJuggle]

Originally posted by BillyTheMountain
They already have chips installed in JJuggle Yeah, and I'm just hoping no one figures out what the password is that forces me to do a Janis Joplin impersonation on the White House lawn.